Darnell Lamont Walker: Listen to a Death Doula: This Is What Love Looks Like

Darnell Lamont Walker: In our last days, some people don’t wanna be seen in the hospital or in the, um, on their deathbed. where I don’t wanna be a burden, I don’t want people to see me like this, I feel ashamed, and I try to explain that, listen, this is sometimes what love looks like. There’s nothing to be ashamed of. This is love. People wanna love you, let people love you.

Tami Simon: Welcome friends. In this episode of Insights at the Edge, my guest is Darnell Lamont Walker. Darnell is a death doula, someone who provides end of life accompaniment and support to individuals and families during the final stages of life. He’s also an Emmy-nominated children’s television writer and producer, and an acclaimed documentary filmmaker.

Darnell is tremendously talented. Generous of heart, and he’s written a new book. It’s called Never Say Goodbye: The Life of a Death Doula and The Art of a Peaceful End. Darnell, welcome.

Darnell Lamont Walker: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Um, I, it’s, I always love to hear the introduction and I’m like, oh, that, yeah, that, that makes sense. That is me.

Tami Simon: That’s you.

Darnell Lamont Walker: That’s me. That’s me. Thanks for having me. I’m so honored to be here.

Tami Simon: I’ll tell you where I wanna start. Something that really got my attention when you were 22 years old, you were told by a doctor, you should have been dead a month ago. Tell me what happened, and also how that event has informed your life.

Darnell Lamont Walker: No, absolutely. Uh, yeah, so I was 22. I was having a…for about a month from the beginning of October, I would walk maybe a couple of blocks and I was out of breath, you know, really, really fast. And, one day, and I, I’m 22, I’m thinking, you know, I’m at the height of health, you know, um, 22, 22 year olds don’t die.

You know, this whole thing. Um. And one day, uh, I woke up and I couldn’t walk. And this is a month into, you know, being at a, being short of breath, walking upstairs, being short of breath, just taking a walk down the block, couldn’t understand what was happening. Um, but I woke up and couldn’t walk and, and again, didn’t relate the two, but decided if I, if tomorrow is this bad. Then I’ll go to the doctor and the next day was worse. And so I went to the hospital, um, and thinking I pulled a groin, you know, I’m like, I pulled a muscle in my groin, um, and possibly in my calf. And he comes back and he says, how long have you been out of breath after running the test? And I say, oh, you know, since, uh, last month, the beginning of October. And he says, you, you should have been dead a month ago. You have 16 clots going from your ankle, um, all the way up into your lungs, and of, at least one of those should have killed you. And I’m thinking, oh, well it didn’t, so let’s get me back to Optimum Health. You know? And so we get there and, um, eventually, but. That moment for me, showed me that one, at any moment we could go, um, two, how, just how precious life is and how precious life should be like now. You know, having to face that mortality. Having to say, oh, I could be dead at any given moment and this is something now that I live with. Um, you know, going forward, this is something that I have to go see my hematologist every year and hear her say. Oh, glad you’re still here. How can we keep you moving forward? But because of that, I live a fantastic, I’m so sorry about that. I live a fantastic life. Um, and I, I’m just so honored to, to be able to say choose to make this Tuesday or this, it’s Wednesday. To make this Wednesday. Um. Bright and I choose to make this Wednesday as, as, as great and as colorful and as beautiful as possible instead of waking up and just merely existing. So there’s this difference between, you know, for me, between living and existing and that diagnosis, that, that moment helped me see what that difference is. Um, and yeah. And so, you know, having to face that mortality. And I talk a lot about that. I talk a lot to, to people. I’m just saying, you know, when you. Having to face that mortality and how much it helps us live the life that we to live. Like I told, I told a friend yesterday, I said, uh, you know, we’d all be so blessed to be diagnosed with something that could kill us at any moment.

Tami Simon: That’s why I wanted to start the conversation there, because I think this idea of living with an awareness that death can come at any moment, it’s very powerful. And in reading your book and in getting to learn more about your life story, you’re a tremendously creative, adventurous, fun, loving, joyful person.

And I thought to myself, some of this must come from the fact that Darnell. Is aware that he could really go at any moment, hi, his blood clots. He could go at any moment. And so my question is how do people live with that kind of awareness without having to have the kind of medical condition? I’m sorry that you have.

Darnell Lamont Walker: Yeah, no, I, you know, I, it’s about being intentional. It’s about honoring the moment and, and it doesn’t have to be this thing that we, you know. Recognize and, and pay close attention to every day. You know, every day I don’t think about this. You know, there are days or weeks that might pass, and it wasn’t a thought in my mind that at any moment I could go, but when it does come, it’s a moment that I honor and I say, oh, that’s true about me.

That’s a thing. Maybe today I should do something that I wanna do. Or maybe, you know, now that I’ve recognized that maybe I should do something beautiful and meaningful and honor this moment. And I think that’s what it is. You know, there are moments that come, uh, for everyone that. When we were alone, like even before this, there were moments where I’d be alone in my room at night and I’d say, you know what?

If tonight’s the last night, and then I’d journal or find something the next day that, oh, I should go to the bookstore tomorrow and find a book that I really wanna read in case the time goes, you know? And so it’s about honoring those moments when they come. Uh, we don’t have to live in this constant fear that we could die at any, any second.

Um, but when it, when it does come. Sit with it, you know, savor that moment and say, okay, glad that’s here. This is what I’m going to do.

Mm-hmm.

Tami Simon: You were an unusual kid. I read that at 13 you were volunteering at a hospice and home care facility after school and I thought, God, I’ve never met a 13-year-old who was a hospice volunteer. You know, they’re off going to some sporting gymnastics, something or other.

Darnell Lamont Walker: Yeah.

Tami Simon: What brought you to wanna volunteer at a hospice at 13?

Darnell Lamont Walker: Yeah. You know, it’s strange how my life lined up that way. Like I didn’t volunteer at the place because it was a hospice. Um, although, you know, looking back it’s, it’s wild to see the dots that are connected. Um, My friends were working, you know, had real jobs, years older than me, they were getting, you know, work permits at Hardee’s and McDonald’s and all these things.

And I wanted to work but I couldn’t ’cause I was too young. And I remember the public access channel that just flipped through with ads of things that were happening in the city all the time. And I was sitting there watching it one day, it said that they needed volunteers. And I thought, well, maybe I could volunteer.

So after school I went up there and I did it because it was a job. And my job was to help residents, um, do arts and crafts and make toast and change calendars in, in the rooms. But while I was doing it, I’d go into the rooms and asked me to sit with them for a while ’cause they hadn’t had visitors.

And, you know, however long or, I. I’d be able to be the, I was the person who was able to be there for them when others weren’t coming. Um, and, and even then, you know, at 13 I didn’t think I was doing anything spectacular or, um, necessary. I just thought, oh, this is, this is what I do. This is what people do.

Yeah, sure. I’ll sit here and play checkers or monopoly with you or play cards or just sit and talk with you. And, and I learned so much from those, from those people there. And it was such a beautiful time that now when I look back, I think, oh, well, of course this is where all of that led me. This is where all of those things brought me, uh, to this work. I’ve been doing it since then. Um, but yeah, it wasn’t, it wasn’t on purpose, I’ll say, but it was what was aligned, you know?

Tami Simon: And early in your life though, you noticed an affinity that you had for being with people who were in the dying process. Tell us about that.

Darnell Lamont Walker: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mostly because I was with my grandma, you know, I spent every, if, if, if it was possible, I would’ve spent every waking hour with her. Um, and she recognized early that I was. I think maybe the only one in the family who wasn’t afraid to talk about death besides her. And so when she was helping people, know, and doing the work that, you know, death doulas do, um, although she wasn’t a death doula, um, by title. Um, I was able to be there with her, you know, her friends. Uh, we had her sister, um, when I was a kid when I was nine. That’s about as early as I recognized, um, that in me. Um, and then, you know, 13 also is the year I had a cousin, her nephew, who came home to die. And she says, well, you can, you can come to my house, I’ll take care of you.

And it was me and her there taking care of him when other family members didn’t. Uh. Didn’t want to be around because this was the height of AIDS epidemic people were or weren’t informed. Um, you know, and it was tough, but it was. was the first time I was able to have this hands-on experience with the end of life, and say, this is how we take care of people.

This is what we do when we love people. Um, this is what it is to witness, people at their, uh, at their end. Um, and it, and it kind of stayed with me. I, I took that to school when my first, um. The first time I, I had a friend die and the schools weren’t very resourceful. They just said, you know, if you want to talk to the guidance counselor, come on in. Otherwise have a nice day. And I was able to say, well, maybe we should talk about, you know, talk about her at, at lunch and or at recess and. We should do something, and I was able to bring that into that as well. And so it kind of carried on from, you know, nine years old, um, until now.

Tami Simon: You mentioned how close you were with your grandma and that she didn’t have anything like a professional title called Death Doula and, and really that’s a, a, a profession that has. Come in under that title only really in recent years, at least that I started hearing it. And yet it’s a function in families, communities, culture.

It’s a a function that has always been played, and I wonder if you can speak to that. The professionalizing of death, doula and its ordinary heart flowing function in communities.

Darnell Lamont Walker: no, absolutely. I it’s, you’re right. I, I hadn’t heard the term until, um, about 10 years ago, uh, 2015, the fall of 2015 when I was talking to a hospice nurse after telling her these experiences, you know, that I’m talking about with you. And she says, oh, it sounds like you’re a death doula. And I look it up and I’m like, I’ve never heard this before. But this is exactly what I’ve been doing since I was a kid. then I had to think like, this is exactly what my grandmother, my mother, my grandmother’s mother, like all these people in my family have been doing this work for, you know, centuries. Um, interesting to see what, what is happening, the professionalizing of it.

Um, you know, the people are going to get certified in this thing that we. Once, you know, it was, this is what you do for love. This is what you do when you love someone. Um, and I’m not against that. I, you know, I have a certification. Um, it’s not necessary. Uh, it’s, it’s, I tell people that you get certified when you wanna figure out how to run it as a business.

Otherwise, you are more than welcome to go volunteer at a hospice and learn this work. Just as you know, just as. Fast or, um, even more so with the hands-on work rather than the classroom work. Um, the professionalizing has, you know, made it, has put it into the, uh. Into the lexicon of, of, of, of the world now.

And, and not against that at all. Like I, I, I love, I have friends who are running their certification programs that are doing amazing work. We are getting more people out there. People are paying attention, and we get more people, um, who don’t have to be alone at the end. that this is happening, um, it adding that title lets people. Has shown people that, oh, it feels, it feels special, you know, to a lot of people. And they say, oh, this thing exists. so are being called in to, to be there at the end for, for a lot of folks. And I, and I’m grateful for that. Um, I, my big thing is I just don’t want people to be alone. Um, and I’ve carried that with me since I was at that hospice at 13.

And, um, I’m seeing that this is allowing for that. happen.

Tami Simon: What do you think about the idea, Darnell, and I’m sure you’ve had this experience that some people actually wanna be alone. Like they choose the moment to die when no one else is there.

Darnell Lamont Walker: Oh yeah, I’ve, I’ve seen that even, even for my grandmother. Um, and I have who will wait for the family or, you know, whoever is there to leave to do it. Um, and I think a lot of times, uh, it. The, it’s all about the reasoning. I, I’m, what you wanna do, I’m, I’m completely here for that. Um, a lot of times so many of us have felt, we feel death is a burden, right?

It feels like death is this thing we don’t want to have to put off someone. And so like, ah, I don’t want them to have to carry that around. Let me do it while, while they’re not here. And I’ve had people say that to me. I’ve had clients say that to me. Like, I don’t want anyone in the room because they, I don’t want them to be haunted by that, to be haunted by that final site.

I know people who don’t wanna be vis, you know, in our last days, some people don’t wanna be seen in the hospital or in the, um, on their deathbed. Um, and I, and I understand and I try to explain that, listen, this is sometimes what love looks like. when my grandfather was dying, I was there for him. And I remember it was a fast decline right at the end, and I had to help. Um. Change his bedsheets and get him outta bed and, and put a new gown on him. And he’s like, I don’t want you to see me like this. And I had to remind him that this is what love looks like, I am honored to be able to see him like this. Um, and I, so I, when people tell me they wanna be alone, I, I like to ask why. And then if it’s one of those reasons where I don’t wanna be a burden, I don’t want people to see me like this, I, I feel ashamed, then I try to. Work with that and say, there’s nothing to be ashamed of. This is love. People wanna love you, let people love you.

And, and a lot of times you see that shift where it’s like, oh, you’re right. You’re right.

Tami Simon: You’ve sat at the bedside now of many dying people. You write about it and never can say goodbye. The stories of your experience with these people, and I wonder if you could share, here’s. A couple of the big themes, and this is just a general question, Darnell, that I’ve learned firsthand from being there.

This is what I’ve learned, this is what I’ve come to know.

Darnell Lamont Walker: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, you know, um, one for sure is that people in what I’ve, what I’ve come to know is that people in the end want to share. Pieces of themselves. They want to, they wanna be asked those questions that we sometimes avoid asking them. Um, they wanna be reminded of things, uh, and they don’t want to leave this place with so much inside that could help others. Um, and uh, and by that I mean, you know, I’ve had, I’ve had clients who. Tell their family, you know, ask me whatever questions you wanna know the answer to. Um, I, I, as a, I’m a writer and a lot of what I do in this work is I, I wanna come in and help share the story and. Maybe help them find closure in sharing that story.

And so a lot of times I come in and they say, I wanna write about this because I, this is what I want my family to know. No one’s ever asked me this, no one’s ever talked to me about this part of my life. Um, I, I have these things I want to tell my daughter. I, I wanna tell my husband, I’m gonna tell my wife. Um, and, and I see. The, the load that’s lifted off of them when it’s asked, and, and not just for them, but also for family that’s left behind. it’s a, it’s a thing for them too. It’s to say, oh, know something, they’ve been carrying around years and I’ve seen what happens when they don’t get to do that.

I’ve seen happens when they’re afraid to ask those questions. I had a client recently who. Um, her daughter wanted to ask questions, but was afraid to do it, not knowing, you know, like, this is, these are her last days. I don’t want her to feel, you know, ashamed or bothered by them. But I also, after talking with the mom, she wanted her daughter to ask these questions, so now I’m mediating that thing. and so that’s one. Um, another, you know, of course are the regrets. You know, people die with these regrets. That I am working toward helping people lessen those or, um, find ways to one, yeah. Yeah. Face their mortality and live a life where if there’s, if there’s a way to lighten that, lighten that, then let’s, let’s get to that work. Um, there are so many people who are, who are you know, I wish I had lived. The life that I wanted to live, not the life that I wanted to live to make this person happy. And that’s, that keeps showing up. It’s like I, I lived a life like my, I had one, one client who lived a life to make. His grandmother’s dreams come true. He was there at the end of her life and she told him, and he told her that. He’s like, I wanted to have the all these things for you before you died, and I’m sorry I couldn’t get those. she says, I’d never wanted any of that. She’s like, I just wanted you to be happy. I wanted you to live your life. And he’s telling me this from his death bed.

And he says, I never got. To do that because I was so focused on that, and here I am now, he’s like, so now I just need to pass this information down to my nephews so they don’t do what I did. And so it’s, uh, I’m grateful able to be there and to pass that message down to his nephews and to pass that message to everyone you know, these are lessons that I learned from each of my clients. Um. That I get to bring into the world. Like even as a, you know, children’s television writer, I, I get to somehow incorporate these into scripts. Um, and maybe it’s not about death, but I can, I can get that same message across like, you live your life, do these things that you wanna do now.

Tami Simon: I wanna go back to the first observation you made about how people are carrying, uh, I’ll use my language, a certain gift or medicine or something inside of them and they wanna be sure to give it. To tell their story what they learned, the wisdom they discovered before they die. And I know you teach storytelling workshops and storytelling as a preparation to die.

And one thing I heard you say that really got my attention is that one of the prompts you offer at the beginning of some of these workshops is tell your life story to me in three sentences. And I thought that’s really good. I wonder where Darnell. Came up with that, and as I was driving around, I did come up with how I would tell my life story, but I’m gonna ask you, Darnell, tell me your life story in three sentences, what would they be?

Darnell Lamont Walker: my life story in three sentences, uh, would be, um, he came into this world, very curious, didn’t quite figure it out along the way, but knows it will all make sense in the end. And tho those are my three sentences. ’cause I’m having a, I, you know, I, I gave up long ago trying to, trying to find the answer to all these big questions that I have because I, I know that, I see that spark in people on their deathbed where they say, oh. That was why that happened. that’s where it hits, you know, that’s where it lands. If it lands sooner, if it lands tomorrow and I’m still here, fine. But I see that a lot of these, a lot of this stuff, we’ll figure it out in the end. Um, and I, I love that exercise. I’ve, I’ve had it from a teacher. I, you know, um. Randomly, I, I don’t even remember the teacher that taught me that, but I, I, I’ve been able to evolve it and say, tell me your life in three sentences, and then help people to, I, I guide them into making those three sentences into a full story as some have written memoirs from this. And it’s such a beautiful thing.

It’s like, okay, well now you have, just think about the theme of your life. Just think thinking about themes again. Um, you know, think about the themes of your life. What are these relationships? What are these, you know, this profession you chose, or, um, your, these big ideas or whatever that is what, how do those things. Tell a full story. And then those three, you have a full story in there a lot of times. And it’s your beginning, middle, and not necessarily the end, but where you are now. Um, and if you don’t like where you are now, then these three sentences also give you a chance to look at that and say, oh, I can change how this goes from now. You know? And a lot of time, most of the time, that’s what happens. It’s like, oh. I don’t like this at all. I can pivot now and it’s Yeah, you can.

Tami Simon: Now you mentioned sometimes people can write a whole memoir just from these three sentences that are movements in their life, and I know that a lot of people in the Sounds True Audience. Are wanting to write their life story, but they run up against certain blocks or obstacles, like, okay, does it have to get published?

Who’s gonna read it? Am I really just writing this for myself? There’s so many places I don’t want to go. Historically, like here you are, you’re both a writer and a death doula. People need to spill themselves out before they die. In story form, what do you suggest, Darnell?

Darnell Lamont Walker: you one ev I tell Le ev you. Everyone has a story to tell. Everyone has a story to tell, and everyone has a story worth telling and people are ready to listen. We are not alone in this. We, that inner critic tells us, that us that we’re not a good writer, we’re we are alone. No one cares about what we have to say. Our grammar is horrible. We can’t spell all, all this. You know, crazy, crazy stuff that this inner critic tells us. The first thing I do when I go into the, when I lead these workshops, the very first thing I do is have people, you know, fight against that inner critic slash uh, affirm themselves. So write down everything that you need to hear. Um. As a writer, because now as soon as you pick up that pen and that paper, or you pull that computer up, you are now a writer. So write down everything you need to hear to encourage you to not stop, and then don’t edit as you go. You know? And the, the, the big thing is that if you don’t write this story. This story will never exist in any other way. Like no one else can tell this. So if you leave here without telling this story, then no one will ever know it. And we need your words. We really need your words. And so I tell people that all the time. I think it’s a, you know, it’s our way in. And as soon as, and, this is for me too, like I’m, I’m a writer.

I’ve, you know, I’ve. Been awarded and, um, have a published book and, and things. But I have to do this work every time I sit down to write something. This is not a thing that goes away. I, I don’t think I called myself a writer. I’ve been writing since I was seven. I don’t think I called myself a writer till maybe 10 years ago, um, actually 10 years ago.

This, this year. Um, and I was like, okay, I guess. People say, I’m a writer. I guess I’m a writer. And by then I’d been writing plays and poetry and everything. And so we have to affirm ourselves. We have to fight against that thing that tells us these stories aren’t worthy. I, I do a lot of, when I go to bookstores, um, I, I go through the memoir section and find memoirs by people I’ve never heard of that most of us have never heard of, because I, it’s. Shows me that they too have a story. Like this story is important I love that. And I read it and now I’m like, oh yes. And now I know this person and I needed their words and, and I share it with everyone who I know also needs their words. So people are waiting for it. People are waiting for your story.

Tami Simon: Now Darnell, I also work. Publishing. And what I would say from that perspective for a moment is we don’t need more memoirs on the shelves that are gonna sell 500 copies or 200 copies, or at least publishers don’t wanna invest

Darnell Lamont Walker: Mm-hmm.

Tami Simon: the printing and marketing, et cetera. So how does somebody who writes their story, who’s who you know, may not be

Darnell Lamont Walker: Yeah.

Tami Simon: social media influencer with lots of fans who are ready to buy it, how, how do they.

Get their story actually heard

Darnell Lamont Walker: Yeah.

Tami Simon: if it, because it’s not gonna be through traditional publishing, most likely.

Darnell Lamont Walker: Absolutely. And it’s sometimes it’s, that story is not for the world. Sometimes that story is for your family. Um, like I said, I come in, um, and I, a, a large part of what I do is to help people tell their story. And, and it’s not for the masses, it’s for their nieces and their son and their, and their daughters and mothers and, you know, whoever is left. Who they feel can benefit from that. And so we don’t have to produce for, you know, Barnes and Noble. It could be for, um, our friends down the block. It’s like, I wanna leave this. Printed out pieces of paper that I’ve folded and stapled in the, at the edges. And I wanna leave a copy of this for everyone. Um, I, you know, a lot of people we journal, um, and it’s like, well, what happens to your journals when you die?

And most of my friends are like, they all burn. But some of them are like, I want, I want these to pass down to, um. my kids if they wanna read them. And so that’s who we leave these stories for. It, it doesn’t have to go on the shelves, you know, and, and self-publishing, if you, is a thing.

There are places you can go to self-publish. There are many sites where you don’t have to, you know, spend a dime and you could just put it out and sell your books for $3 a piece if you wanna do it that way. But the important part is. Leaving the story here others to use. Um, and I, I talk often about dying empty.

Like if it’s inside of you, it has to come out. It should come out, you know, die empty. I don’t wanna leave this place with anything inside, I should have written. I don’t wanna be on my deathbed thinking, oh, I should have written this. I’m, I’m quite sure that if I am able, if I’m. Fortunate enough to have a death bed. I will be there and I’m, I’m still responsive and I can still move around. down little notes or having my phone, you know, telling it to take notes ’cause I’m, there are gonna be things that I still want to come out and hopefully someone will carry that torch for me. Um, but that, yeah, that’s it.

It’s like it has to come out some way and if that’s how, however, it’s gonna happen, you know, if I write another book and the publisher says, doesn’t want it, I’m still gonna write it I’m still going to, it’s still going to exist somewhere because it has to.

Tami Simon: What do you think about the need people have to confess and how that comes up at the end of life? And I’m using this word very intentionally, confess, there’s something that I’ve been, that I feel guilty about or something that I’ve been hiding a secret, but I, I need to get this out.

Darnell Lamont Walker: Oh yeah. I, it’s, it’s all of that. we, we don’t wanna die. With that pain inside, like that, those things that we feel we need to confess are often painful for us, for the person we might need to confess it to. Um, and we don’t, we know that this thing is fine. And when you, when you reach that in, it’s like, oh, this is, this is it. If I don’t do this, then it will never happen. These people might not ever have these answers or, or they will never know this about me and we see. As, as one, as we get older, for sure, but also at the end you see just how unnecessary it was. Or maybe it was in the beginning, but now it’s not so necessary to keep that in and if, if confessing, it can bring us any closer to peace, any closer to. Someone else’s peace or bring someone else close, as close as possible to the peace that they need or the healing they need, or the joy they need, then we are, this is what I can give you now, then I’m gonna give it to you. And it, it also goes to, you know, in a time where we don’t have much control, um, over what’s happening death, then this confession kind of. Gives us at least a little bit of control over something. Um, and so, and so often, so many people look for as much of that as possible. And then it’s like, okay, well let me do this too. So I, so you know that I’m still here. Um, yeah, I, I think it’s a beautiful thing I’ve, I’ve seen. You know, beautiful things happen on a deathbed, you know, relationships that, uh, were broken for 20 years, you know, have been mended because of a confession or an apology, or I was wrong, you know, uh, whatever that is.

But it’s, it’s necessary.

Tami Simon: Another thing I’m curious about as someone who has really thought about dying quite a lot, uh, is if you’ve experienced when you’re at the bedside spirits or ancestors gathering in the room, if that’s something you, yourself, have palpably felt.

Darnell Lamont Walker: Mm-hmm. Um, I, not for me, I’ve never. Felt it for my clients, um, but I’ve seen them experience it for themselves. and my grandmother,most of my clients, I, I remember sitting with one client. Who we are in full conversation. You know, I’m talking to him about music. He was a musician and we’re talking about music, and then he stops and looks over to the right and then starts a full conversation over this way. And by now, I know that his grandmother would visit him, you know? And say, oh, your grandma here? And he’s like, oh yeah, she’s right there. Can’t you see her? I’m like, no, I, I can’t. But I’m glad she’s here for you, you know? And. So I’ve seen it often. I’ve never seen it for clients. I’ve seen it for myself.

Not on my, of course, not on my deathbed. But, um, I’ve seen spirits, uh, for myself and, and even when I was, um, at the very beginning of this journey, that’s. When my grandmother’s sister was dying, how I knew her time was coming to an end because they came home from the hospital and told me that, you know, she said, she said her, uh, came to see her and her mom had been dead for years. And I, you know, at nine, I’m thinking, you know, a dead person came to see her. Oh, that must mean she’s about to die too. and have. Oh, I’ve seen it times since, um, to deny it, you know, and for them. I always, I always ask people, you know, friends, it’s, it’s one way into conversations that I have.

I say, you know, well, who do you want to come back for you? You know, when it’s your time to go, who do you want to be standing there welcoming you to that next place? Yeah.

Tami Simon: Is your sense that there are spirit allies of some form that come and and help us at the time of our dying?

Darnell Lamont Walker: Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s, uh, I think it’s love that comes back. Um, I have a friend who tells the story of her dad when her dad was dying, and she asked him, she’s like, you know, who do you want, who do you want it to be? Because he had seen, you know, his grandfather and, uh. His mother experienced this on their deathbed, and she says, who do you want to come back?

And he’s like, oh, I want, you know, the, my dog that I had when I was, you know, eight. And then on his deathbed, the other dog and he’s like, no, no. And he’s talking, he is like, not that dog. He, you know, and it’s like, oh, well, dang. You know? And, um. But there’s still a good enough dog to come back for him.

But, I think I, yes, I, I, that is my sense that it is love that comes back for us and that transition out a bit easier.

Tami Simon: Okay. I’m just gonna ask you your perspective on it, which is somebody might say, yeah, you know, we make this stuff up so that we can feel good, and it’s part of what we make up in the dying process, the forms that love comes back in. And I’m just curious what you think about that, or if you’re senses like, actually that’s not what PE people aren’t making it up.

It’s happening to them.

Darnell Lamont Walker: Yeah, no, I, you know, there, I’ve seen it happen for people who are, who are very, very much who. Who go to the end very much saying, no, you know, I don’t believe all that, that that’s not gonna happen. And then watch them interact with these folks who come back for them. and to, like, I, I just, I personally cannot believe that it’s made up.

I have seen it, even my, when my grandmother sister, who I just explained, um, she said, you know, mama came for me and she said, she’s coming back tomorrow. They’re just getting my room ready. And that next day is when she died. Um, with my grandmother, very, very similar thing. And so I knew when she was going because of how it happened. every client, I know many of them have given, they’ve seen these, they’ve seen these spirits, they’ve seen these people who come back for them and they’ve given, you know, too many details. Um, they’ve died exactly when they said they were gonna die, when this person was gonna come back for them. So I can’t personally believe that, but. Because I’ve seen, I’ve seen it and I’ve, I’ve felt it. Um, and being connected to that world myself, I, you know, it is just. It is just such a, you know, beautiful thing to, to have one. And I’m grateful that they do have that. And so I, yeah, I, I couldn’t accept that, but, you know, and, and I hope someone comes back for us all, even those of us who don’t believe it, even for those of us who believe it’s made up that it’s a, a trick of the brain, whatever it is.

I’m glad it, I’m glad it’s happening.

Tami Simon: Okay. You used this interesting phrase, I really liked it. Dying empty.

Darnell Lamont Walker: Mm-hmm.

Tami Simon: we’ve talked some, okay, confessing, writing your story. But for that person who has this sense of, you know, there’s all this stuff I didn’t. I didn’t do that. I wanted to do, there’s all these unlived. There’s all this unlived life, unlived dreams.

How do you help people make peace with that?

Darnell Lamont Walker: that’s the hard part. It’s, you know, sometimes you can’t, honestly, sometimes you can’t. Help people make peace with the things they didn’t get a chance to do. Um, or, you know, I had a client recently who just wanted to put on a backpack and go through Italy one more time. Um, but on their deathbed, knowing it couldn’t happen. Um, so we, we traveled through these moments of, okay, you didn’t get to do this. But let’s talk about all the, all the amazing things you did get to do. talk about all the people who you’ve, who you’ve to do exactly that thing you wanted to do, you didn’t get to do, but now they can. Um, you know, it’s these, these folks are coming back to share their stories, to share, you know, how you helped me, how, how beautiful my life is because of you. Um. because of your, sometimes it’s a sacrifice. Sometimes they didn’t get to do it because they had to sacrifice for someone else who did get to have this beautiful thing. Um, but sometimes honestly, you don’t get to, um, have that moment where like, oh, I made peace with that, with not doing it.

Sometimes it’s just I didn’t get to do that and I, I hate that I didn’t get to do it and I’m gonna die knowing that. Um, Honestly, you know, I, I talk a lot about it. I don’t think, I don’t think any of us get to the end without regrets. I think we, we have them, you know, but I, I think if we can remember more beauty and more, I, you know, uh, greatness and the things we did get to do, I, I try to hold on to those. Also, and you know, for those who are listening to this, there’s still time, you know, for, for those who are out there saying, you know, I didn’t get to, I want to go through Italy and I wanna do this. If you, if can do it, do it. There’s still time. And I, I, that’s a thing, I, I like to drive home the fact that we, don’t have time. We don’t have as much time as we want, and so if you are still able do it now or do it when you can plan to do it and hopefully you get to it.

Tami Simon: The subtitle of Never Can Say Goodbye, the Life of a Death Doula, and The Art of a Peaceful End. It’s that last part

of the subtitle that I wanted to ask you about the notion of a peaceful end. It seems to me that at times death can be a mess, a messy process, not particularly peaceful. So what do you mean by a peaceful end?

Darnell Lamont Walker: Yes, death can be very chaotic, very, very violent a lot of times. Um. And very messy, uh, the, the peaceful end, like my goal as a death doula is to come in, find out how you wanna die, that’s actually my first question is how do you want to die? And try to get them as close to that death as possible.

Tami Simon: but but Darnell, let me ask you a question about that. ’cause whenever I, you know, just in casual conversations, like most people and talk, how do you want, everybody wants to die in their sleep peacefully, blah, blah, blah. And it just doesn’t happen. Most of the time

Darnell Lamont Walker: At most

of, of the time it does not. Um, but what does happen is now we, we start that conversation and now you’re thinking about it. And although it may not happen, there’s a chance that it could, but it may not. Um, but you start planning for that. You start planning this life. Up until that moment, um, all these beautiful things unravel up until that moment.

Even if, if it’s a car accident, you’re like, oh, I, I wanna die at 80 in my garden, surrounded by my family holding my hand. but it’s a car accident. But up until that car accident, you were headed toward that very peaceful end that you imagined. And so there’s so much beauty that happens in there. Um, and that can happen in there if we are intentional about it. Um, and so even when my client, you know, I, each of my, they, they all have a way they want to go. Uh, you know, my last client. She wanted a party. She wanted to, wanted it to be at a party by family. Everyone, everyone wearing purple, um, and having a good time. And she didn’t get that. But she did get the, the party planning.

She did get to the, you know, who’s gonna be there? Who do I not want to be there? How do, what foods do I want? Will everyone wear purple? And she did. She, you know. She died two weeks before Actual weeks, yeah. A week, a week and a half before the party happened. Um, but it happened to be Thanksgiving. Um, she died the day after Thanksgiving, but, um, Thanksgiving, a lot of family came and they were able to do everything that she hoped they would do at the party. And so. The, the planning still happened and she still found the happiness and peace in that planning, um, even though she didn’t get the death that she necessarily wanted. Um, and so, yeah, most of us, no one wants to, I I, I’ve known one person actually who wanted to die in the hospital, but no one wants to die in the hospital. so when I talk to people, they’re like, oh, I wanna be at home and I wanna be this, but, you know, the chances are, you know, they will die in the hospital if. If it comes to that. And, everything leading up to that moment brought them some form of peace. Um, hopefully if, if they’ve done it with intention, if they’ve honored the moment, if they’ve, um, done the work, they can find peace in those, in those moments.

Tami Simon: So you’re saying, if I understand correctly, just let me see. It’s okay to have find peace and a fantasy that very well may not happen.

Darnell Lamont Walker: Oh, absolutely. I think, you know, it’s that, it’s that audacity of hope type of type of situation where it’s like, hope is dangerous, but it, you know, but it’s there, you know, and so it, this may not happen, but this is what I want. And okay, let me get, let me start getting these pieces in order. And so once I have them in order, it’s like, oh, okay, I’m gonna ha I’m gonna have that. But then things unfold in ways that we can’t imagine and we don’t get it. But for the, for up until then there was that thing of like, oh, this is gonna be much different than the way my mom died, or way my grandfather died. You know, unplanned hadn’t had never talked about death kind of way.

Tami Simon: After someone dies as a death doula, you also help the family with grieving and you have this great line. So I wanna bring it forward because I wrote it down and I’m gonna keep it with me. Grief is the sequel to love. And in a way it’s kind of obvious, but it helped me as somebody who, uh, has gone through periods of my life of tremendous grief,

Darnell Lamont Walker: Mm-hmm.

Tami Simon: oh, that’s also, uh, a sign of the deep love that I’ve had in this situation.

Darnell Lamont Walker: No, absolutely. It’s, you know, when, when we left, I mean, it’s, it’s just the, it’s what we’re left with. It’s, you know, you, you grieve. We grieve what we lost. Um, yeah. It’s, it’s, it shows that we loved correctly or a lot of times it shows that we, that it was. This and not saying that the more, the deeper the grief, the deeper the love, that’s not true at all.

Um, but it shows that we love this person, we love this thing. We loved, we held onto it. Um, we honored it, and now they’re, they’re gone. It’s gone. all of this pain, um, and grief isn’t always pain. Grief can sometimes. Be many other things. Um, but we are left with that. And it was because we loved, we loved, you know, and, and it’s as simple as that.

Um, you know, I, I think about the many people I lost, and I know that when it’s, when, when it’s time for them to go, it’s, it’s gonna be hard. You know, when my grandmother died, it was hard, but I, I, am so filled with. The thought of how I loved her, you know, and it’s, it’s what gets me through and it’s, it’s the pay, the price we pay, it’s the price we pay for being able to have those moments with those, uh, with those folks, um, to have those beautiful days and, and stories and memories. We have to have that thing that comes after those things are gone and those people are gone, uh, which is grief.

Tami Simon: In a. Conversation. Someone asked you, how do you decide which projects to work on? You know, you’re making films, you’re writing for various TV shows, you’re doing this doula work. How do you decide? And you answered my overarching. Theme. My overarching goal is to help people find you ready for this joy to help people find joy.

And here you’ve written a book, never Can Say Goodbye, all about being at the bedside of people dying and the grieving process. And somehow it brings people to joy.

Darnell Lamont Walker: Yeah.

Tami Simon: The book brings people to joy, and I wonder if you can speak to that, how going through. Being present for death and helping people grieve brings joy.

Darnell Lamont Walker: Yeah, I, you know, it’s, I always talk about, like, I, I try to take people, I, I serve as this bridge, right where I take, I hope I’m someone who gets people from where they are to where they wanna be. And I hope, you know, a lot of times where we wanna be is the joy, um. But there’s joy in that. There’s joy going through that and realizing that, oh, I loved, again, going back to that, oh, I, I loved, I, can, this transition doesn’t have to be what it was for all these folks who came before me. It doesn’t have to be, um, it doesn’t have to be tough. It doesn’t have to be any of the, I could. I can, oh, I can plan, I can do these things. I, you know, I wrote this book letting people know that they too, have done the work. They’ve already done the work for other people. Um, they’ve helped people find, um, peace in the end and find love and, and closure and, and all of that.

And like all of that leads us to this place, um, hopefully where we can say, huh, know. I’m glad that hap I’m glad I had it. It didn’t work out. Sometimes it didn’t work out the way I wanted it to, but I’m glad I had that. Um, and for me, you know, all of that, everything in this book, everything I’ve experienced facing my own mortality, um, um, you know, losing some of, some of the people in my life who I, I thought would never die, you know? Even in that, it’s like, oh, and I sit back and I’m, I honor those moments and I can, and I think about ’em and I, and I, I’m filled with so much joy that I got to have those moments though, and I, I want that for us all. Even when I sit down, like deciding which projects, you know, I sit down and I write these kid shows and it’s like they’re, they’re all about like, whether I’m writing for kids, whether I’m helping, you know, folks die.

It’s all about transitions and it’s all about. people from where they are to where they are going. And it’s, for me, that’s getting it out there and that’s helping them also find that peace in the end. And that that happiness and that love and that joy, um, and it, it’s, it’s really all about that for me.

It’s, it’s, I want us all to experience it and. Maybe that that’s a, it’s a huge goal to, to really have. And, um, but I, I think it’s possible. I think, I think it really is, if we can just move toward it.

Tami Simon: This is what love looks like to end. I’d be curious to know in your own life, this is what love looks like, what you’ve done to live into that. Sentence that you found really challenging, didn’t come naturally to you, but you did it anyway.

Darnell Lamont Walker: Mm-hmm. This is what love looks like. Love looks like going into. Going into the hard, going into the hard moments, going into the, into the very difficult corners and the darkness and saying, I am here I don’t know if this will break me. I don’t know if I will make it out of here, but I am here and. I am here because I know that I’m, I’m not alone. It’s, it’s finding the courage to say that and to believe that. Um, but to show up there and not, and and not be ashamed of being afraid and not being, finding any guilt in that. Um, but just showing up love looks like showing up. In all the moments. In all the moments and, and, and welcoming others to do the same.

Tami Simon: Darnell Lamont Walker, author of the new book Never Can Say Goodbye, the Life of a Death Doula, and the Art of a Peaceful End. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for your big heart, tremendous creativity, all you pour out. Thank you.

Darnell Lamont Walker: so much. I appreciate it so much. I, I’m so honored. And, um, thank you all for listening. Um, yeah, that’s, that’s it. Show up and, and fight. And for those who wanna write, I, I drive it home. Fight that in a critic. Affirm yourselves and we need your stories. They’re worth listening to and worth reading and hearing.

Tami Simon: Thank you, Darnell.

Darnell Lamont Walker: Thank you.