Diana Hill, PhD: How to Discover Your Deepest Motivation

Diana Hill: [00:00:00] contributes to change in therapy, when people make the progress and change, they wanna make, it isn’t necessarily about social support. It isn’t necessarily about therapeutic alliance. All those are very important. what really rose to the top was their psychological flexibility. If you can shift somebody to become more psychologically flexible, they are more likely to make the changes they wanna make in their life.

Tami Simon: In this episode of Insights at the Edge, my guest is Diana Hill. Diana is a clinical [00:01:00] psychologist, an international trainer, and a sought after speaker on acceptance and commitment therapy, known as Act a CT. She combines neuroscience insights from Buddhist Wisdom and the practice of mindfulness to help people develop psychological flexibility.

Direct their energy towards what matters most, and we’re gonna be talking more about both of those things, psychological flexibility and how we direct our energy towards what we most care about. She’s published several powerful guidebooks, including the Act Daily Journal, and the Self-Compassion Daily Journal, and she’s now released a new book and audio book with Sounds True.

It’s called Wise Effort, how to Focus Your Genius on What Matters Most. Diana, welcome.

Diana Hill: Thank you. It’s such a pleasure to be here and a [00:02:00] good use of my energy.

Tami Simon: Yes indeed. Here we go. Mine too. You are someone who knows a whole lot about how we humans change. How we don’t, and this is something I’m really interested, having published and interviewed people and created learning programs about transformation for four decades, and really looking at, well, what, what does it, when does it work?

When does it not work? How can we create more helpful change for people? And so this concept of psychological flexibility, you write in your new book wise effort, that psychological flexibility helps us change. So let’s start there. What is it and how can I get more of it?

Diana Hill: Well, there’s a lot of science behind psychological flexibility at this point, and then there’s also a lot of common sense and [00:03:00] wisdom behind it. I mean, even just thinking about those words, psychological flexibility, you start to put together some ideas about maybe having a flexible mindset or flexible behavior. the term itself comes from act, which was founded by Steven Hayes and hundreds of other researchers over the past 40 years that have been compiling, um, and collaborating on this concept. And what it means is when you are psychologically flexible. You are able to orient yourself where you wanna orient yourself. You’re able to pursue what matters to you even in the presence of obstacles. You aren’t stuck in your thoughts. You aren’t entangled in your feelings, but you aren’t pushing them away either. You’re open, you’re engaged, you’re aware. And Steve Hayes did a massive research study, um, with some other collaborators where he looked at pretty much every research paper he could find [00:04:00] around what contributes to change in therapy.

It was over 50,000 papers that he put into this meta-analysis. And what he found is that contributes to change in therapy, when people make the progress and change, they wanna make, it isn’t necessarily about social support. It isn’t necessarily about therapeutic alliance. All those are very important. But what really rose to the top was their psychological flexibility. If you can shift somebody to become more psychologically flexible, they are more likely to make the changes they wanna make in their life. So it’s a pretty powerful, uh, construct.

Tami Simon: I wanted to start there because it’s something that feels really important to me and important to understand and important to understand what in US makes us inflexible. And just briefly, Diana, I was talking to someone a little while ago, a new Sounds True author, and he was talking about something, the [00:05:00] flexibility of the heart, and that in his experience in working with people who had suffered trauma in various ways, it was the flexible heart.

Allowed people to release and move on. And this was very important to me because I thought of how, in my own experience, there are certain ways that I feel inflexible at the level of my heart, like hard to forgive, hard to let go of a grudge, hard to really make it all the way through the grief and move on.

And I thought, huh, this is what I need a more flexible heart. So I wonder if you could share some about that specifically and what allows our hearts to let go.

Diana Hill: Yeah, I love the concept of a flexible heart, and I would say that’s one aspect of psychological flexibility. one of my, my teachers, Trudy Goodman, who’s also a good friend of mine, she actually [00:06:00] was a, I called her my second body while writing this book because we’d pull up, zoom together and she’d write on Zoom on her side, and I’d write on zoom on my side. But she’s taught me about this concept of sitting at the back of the heart. And, uh, I love that idea because a flexible heart is one that can hold sorts of things at the front of the heart. It can hold the anger, maybe even the resentment, maybe even, uh, the sadness or the jealousy or all the things that arise.

And these are really. Things that arise and then can dissipate if we don’t hold them too tight. And especially if you sit at the back of the heart, the deep back of the heart as, um, sort of a compassionate, bigger, wiser self that allows things to come and go in the, um, the, Buddhist, um. Start over in the Chinese symbol for heart mind. if you, if you look at the [00:07:00] calligraphy of it, you’ll see three little brush strokes, and sometimes those at the top, those three little brush strokes are considered the agitation of the mind and the agitation of the heart through the feelings. All this stuff that happens when we’re caught up in something.

And then underneath is one long brush stroke. It almost looks like a boat that’s holding it all. And I, and I would say that’s a flexible heart, right? That that can hold it all without getting too sticky and attached. And then inevitably things will come and will go. I mean, I, I have a flexible heart as a mom of teenagers, right?

I can’t be too sticky with, um, what happens in our household because they’re gonna come and they’re gonna go. And if my heart is big enough, then they will also feel that we can feel other people’s presence in their flexible heart. So I love that concept.

Tami Simon: You know, I’m interested that this term came from acceptance and commitment therapy and how research-based acceptance and commitment therapy is within that model. What [00:08:00] supports psychological flexibility?

Diana Hill: Well, within that model, there’s six core processes that we work on with psychological flexibility. One is that flexibility with feelings, and that’s where I would put the flexible heart, um, component with psychological flexibility. There’s other dimensions. There’s also flexibility of attention. So do you have the ability to shift your attention where you want it to go, or is your attention so stuck on one thing that you, you get inflexible and that can cause a lot of problems.

People that are really self-critical or critical of others or can only see mistakes or, and obsessive, right. also an aspect to psychological flexibility around, um, the flexibility of the sense of self. Which is kind of a fun one and really aligns with a lot of contemplative teachings because we often have this sort of small little s sense of self.

But really our self is in so much [00:09:00] more just what we think of as our sort of ego self. You know, our self for me, myself is in the oak tree. Outside self is in the, my grandmother’s painting behind me, myself is in Tammy Simon because we’re having this interaction and exchange. So this bigger self is a, is part of psychological flexibility, being able to step into that bigger self. So we have flexibility of attention, flexibility with feelings, flexibility with sense of self. And then the other three are flexibility with your thoughts. Act is a little bit different than traditional cognitive behavioral approaches in that. like in terms of the practice, we’re not trying to change thoughts.

We don’t battle with thoughts. watch thoughts, we step back for them. We do something called cognitive diffusion you can notice like your thought has gotten really sticky, and can you unstick from it like a, like a, like a sticky pad note, you know, and you could move that note around the page and it, it doesn’t mean so much, right?

When you, when you notice that you can be flexible with [00:10:00] your thoughts, don’t believe every thought to be true. And then act also has flexibility with behavior, which is really important. It is a behavioral, uh, model. And then flexibility with motivation. Like, are you motivated by your heart? Are you motivated by things that matter to you, by your values?

Those six core processes are what contribute to psychological flexibility.

Tami Simon: So here you are, you’re training people in the ACT model. You’ve written a a journal for people to use these principles, and from all of this work you decided to create the Wise Effort program. Tell me what inspired that and how wise effort builds on the foundation that you developed as an ACT therapist.

Diana Hill: Well, I think what inspired it was, um, you know, my background is an act, but my background is also deeply rooted [00:11:00] in, um, contemplative teachings, especially Tek Nhan. I first, uh, traveled to Plum Village when I was 19. I was really struggling as a 19-year-old, um, recent college graduate, and I had a, a lot of struggles with how I was using my energy.

To be honest. I was quite the striver and, uh, was, it was backfiring on me and had a lot of eating disorders. And when I got to Plum Village, I learned about this concept of energy use and wise use of our energy. Everything from how Ty would. Put down everything to pick up a of tea with both hands and intentionally drink it, you know, and how present he was, how he, his energy was, his presence and how that was transmitted energetically to me of, oh, what’s going on here?

There’s something about this energy, which is different than the type of energy that I was caught up in as a strive. I had my own sort of dip into this idea of [00:12:00] wiser. And actually at that time, I heard him talk in a, in a dharma talk about, um, a soldier raise his hand. I think it was during the time of the Iraq war. And, uh, he, he had come to Plum Village somehow and had been on this retreat and said, you know, I kind of don’t wanna go back. I don’t wanna go back to, to the war. What should I do? And Ty said, Han said, you are exactly the person that I want there. You’re the person to be behind the gun. Now that you’ve experienced this, the person. And that really influenced me because I,

Tami Simon: To because, because Ty wanted him to bring his mindful presence, uh, while, while having a gun in his, that that’s the kind of attention. Okay. I’m with you,

Diana Hill: If that’s the, if that’s the energy that’s behind the gun,

Tami Simon: right.

Diana Hill: wouldn’t you rather have

Tami Simon: We’re in good hands. Yeah.

Diana Hill: in

Tami Simon: Yeah.

Diana Hill: Literally we’re in good hands, So, uh, so there’s always been this part of me that’s, I’ve [00:13:00] always been sort of in this, like, either I’m all out or I’m all in, one of my clients calls it the whole pot of coffee, you know, it’s like not one cup, but the whole pot. So I’ve, I’ve always been this sort of all out or all in, and there’s a part of me that’s always wanted to like, bail, dump it all, pull all out. And what wise effort is is not that. It’s, it’s, it’s about how do you bring your energy to bear in wiser ways. And enter into the spaces where you are needed most, where your genius is needed most. And then if you add in something like psychological flexibility, then you can tolerate and be with the discomfort of that because it’s in the service of your values. So for me, wise effort is a real marriage of what we know from psychological science. But what’s also, you know, in, been informed to me through psycho, contemplative practice, through my personal practice, and then through decades of working with clients.

So I’ve had hundreds of clients that struggle with their energy [00:14:00] use in one form or another, or of another, you know, unwise use of energy in their relationships or at work or in their creativity or in their communities. And, um, it’s been a really fun and creative journey to kind of come up with this method that is truly an integrative method that combines a lot of these teachings in one, one place.

Tami Simon: The subtitle of your new book Wise Effort, how to Focus your Genius on What Matters Most, and I can imagine some people. Rolling their eyes when they see the word genius. Like really? You know, is everybody a genius? And yet you write in the book how as a therapist, one of your gifts, I guess we could call it part of your genius, is to see the genius in other people.

And I believe that, I believe you can do that, but how do we see the genius in ourselves and why is it so important to you to put that right at the center of the Wise [00:15:00] effort method?

Diana Hill: Well, I think most of the people watching or listening to this could really quickly come up with Tammy Simon’s geniuses

Tami Simon: Probably they could come up with it easier than I could.

Diana Hill: easier than you could. Yeah, I can, I can really quickly come up with an oak trees genius. can really quickly come up with even, um, my UPS delivery person. She’s a genius. you know, the way she can maneuver that truck in there and she can lift those heavy boxes and, and then also be friendly towards me and accommodating in our little lane, right? There’s, there’s qualities that, that show up and shine in her work. And she could put that there and she could also put that into her family and she could put that into her community. when I am, um, working with clients and they come in with really difficult stuff, you don’t, you don’t usually go to the therapist ’cause you just wanna like chat. Especially in our busy time and busy lives, you come in because you have something you’re gonna share that you haven’t [00:16:00] shared with anyone. You have stuff inside of you that you feel a lot of shame around. You have problems in your relationship that you’re like, oh, I can’t believe how I’m treating this person, or how this person’s treating me, or decisions you need to make. And that’s when we need you. The best versions of you, the qualities that make you you, the gifts, the talents, the interests, the, the energy, the genesis, quois of you to show up. And I see that in people. I see it, I see in every problem I see a genius. So the the idea genius, even the word genius doesn’t come from like Stanford, Benet, you know, it, it comes from, you know, in Roman times I used to see like a genius as a, as a protector that went from house to house to house. And sometimes our geniuses come out of our biggest struggles in life. Right. If you think about the succulents outside of my office, they have those little tiny, thick leaves that are full of [00:17:00] water because they’re, they’ve struggled with, you know, a lot of, um, dry, uh, desert-like conditions. And so for, for many of us, our genius comes out of our hardships. But our genius can be the very thing that can help us with our hardships. We can start by seeing it in others, and then maybe we can ask ourselves a few questions like, um, when I’m most in flow. When things come easily to me, am I doing? And, and they may not come easily to other people. Like the things that come easily to you don’t necessarily come easily to others.

That’s part of your genius is your interests, your what brings you into flow. Another aspect of your ingenious is your emotional inte intelligence. So for example, when people call you, like when friends call you calling that other person in your friend group, why are they calling you? What are they asking you for that’s unique? What do you offer? How do you show up for [00:18:00] them? That’s part of your genius as your emotional intelligence. Uh, when you were a kid, what did you love to do? know, and, um, the, your abilities, your talents, were you the kid that could like, uh, do backflips? Maybe you have physical abilities that are part of your genius and you can bring those into play. So I wanted to start there because I, so much of psychology is a problem focused angle. It doesn’t have this sort of like, strength-based angle. And what we know from research is that we highlight strengths, not only are we more engaged, we actually tend to do better than when we’re highlighting weaknesses.

But this is a little fresh angle of, uh, looking at it.

Tami Simon: And when I asked the question, I said, you know, some people may roll their eyes at that word, and I’m curious, why do you think that is? Why are so many of us uncomfortable saying, oh, let me, you know, let me tell you about my genius.

Diana Hill: [00:19:00] Well, there’s a healthy amount of discomfort. We don’t wanna seem like narcissists. And um, and I think that that is actually, actually had a psychologist friend of mine who I got a lot of, I got a lot of feedback back on this con on this concept of genius. And a psychologist friend of mine said, this could be dangerous to narcissists. And I said, well, gosh, if a narcissist picks up this book they keep reading a few

Tami Simon: Yeah, we need that

Diana Hill: be the best thing for a narcissist ever. Because

Tami Simon: right.

Diana Hill: up saying, you know, open up to your wise self. Guess what? There is no separation between you others. And that everybody has, you know, unique genius qualities to them.

You go down to my garden and I’ll tell you this tomato plant is a genius for this reason and this pepper plant and this eggplant and this passion flower. I can see they, they all have their unique geniuses and I’m so glad they show up in their own way. And then they also have a shared contribution, right?

So we have a shared common humanity as humans, right? And an an interconnection of [00:20:00] humans and inter being, as Ty would call it, that is both. And like it can coexist. We can both have things that are very unique about us, but then also have things that are very the same us. And that, that, uh, paradox is, um, can exist.

So I think people recoil because they don’t wanna seem, seem like a narcissist. Maybe they’ve just been trained up and by school to look for faults or where you live in a self-improvement culture we just are constantly needing to look like, what is the thing I need to get better at or improve on?

Rather than, this is what is, you know, this. And, and then I also. the argument that your genius isn’t always the most helpful thing to you. You know, it can, it can backfire. It could become your frenemy. So I’m not saying, you know, you’re, you’re like a genius and then you are special in some way. Uh, but rather your, as many of us, you know, union psychologists would say, like, your, your shadow is also your, your strength.

And we can, um, take a look at that as well in a wise way.

Tami Simon: And then can you m make it [00:21:00] more explicit for me, this connection between wise effort, what we put our attention into and stretch ourselves to accomplish, and this genius quality that we have. How do they connect?

Diana Hill: Yeah. So I would say your genius energy and I and I, and I think of it as energy within you, your life force energy that’s uniquely yours, that genius energy can be used wisely and unwisely. So for, um, example, um, if you have a, a genius, uh, energy around being incredibly, um, oh gosh, Tammy, I was just talking about when we did the audio recording from Sounds True. the people in the audio recruit recording booth, they were like, were like the L lady at school, you know, when they go in and they used to pick out every single hair and

Tami Simon: Yeah.

Diana Hill: every single knit.

Tami Simon: Yeah.

Diana Hill: like that with [00:22:00] sound. every word that I said, they had a genius for detail and attention and like slow down.

Say that again. Say this the right way. It’s genius, right? That’s a beautiful form of energy when used in alignment with their values when used in the right way at work. And we were on a break and I said to one of them. And I said, does this genius ever become a problem for you, like in your relationships or you know, when you’re having a conversation with someone that you’re paying attention to every single word and every single detail, like, could that ever be a problem?

And they’re like, yeah, all the time. So, unwise effort is when your genius gets away from you, when your energy gets away from you, when it’s not guided by the banks of your values. Wise effort is knowing how to use it, when to use it in the right amount and in the direction. that matters to you.

So for sound editors being that detail oriented and focused on words and [00:23:00] sound and applied to, you know, publishing a beautiful audio book, it’s a beautiful use of wise effort in their genius at work. could be problematic if they’re getting really nitpicky and critical and judgmental of their teenager at home and every single word they’re trying to say. So I believe that wise effort is about harnessing your unique qualities, your genius, your energy, and guiding it through the lens of wisdom and values. And when you do that, you both have regenerative energy, but you’re also contributing to the world in a way that is meaningful and impactful. And if we all could do that, we’d have a lot of different varieties of bright lights, you know, but contribute, contributing to a one brighter sky of um, of goodness of wisdom, collective wisdom.

Tami Simon: When it comes to guiding our energy according to our values, you offered a, a very simple, but it, it stuck with me and it had a profound effect [00:24:00] exercise where you can write what you call a nightmarish review of your life or you can write a five star review of your life. And that was interesting to me because in the nightmarish review what that I briefly wrote, I was too busy for friendship.

I was too busy, you know, and so my nightmarish review, my one star review said, you know, Tammy, she really poured herself into her work, but God, she never called people back. She ignored these people. These people felt cut off and no one even showed up for my funeral and my nightmarish review. It was really sad.

Then I wrote my five star review and my five star review had, you know, first of all, lots of people were there and they were talking about how loved they felt by me and seen, et cetera. And just in doing that exercise, I noticed it shifted how I responded to some text messages that I got and someone’s birthday that occurred on the weekend that I took the time to write a [00:25:00] long note to this person.

I thought this exercise, this is really effective because, and the reason I’m pointing this out, Diana, is when it comes to living in accord with our values, I noticed just hearing that phrase, I can kind of go like abstract. What does that mean? Like, I don’t know, it feels vague to me, but when I did the nightmarish review and the five star review, it became real.

So I wonder if you can say more about that so that it’s not abstract for people when they hear about living according to their values.

Diana Hill: Well, first of all, I love that you did it, and that’s a, a, it, it reflects, um, some of your values, which is actually practicing what you preach, right? That actually do the work of that which you are studying and you’re, and you’re sharing. And, I hear and there in your. The values kind of floating to the surface because that which we will regret in our life a big [00:26:00] arrow pointing to what we care about. And the way that I look at values is, and the way ACT looks at values, is that they’re very action oriented. They’re adverbs and verbs that describe how we want to show up in the world. So you were very specific. Like, she’s not calling her friends, she’s busy, she’s working. So you’re choosing work over friendship, right? That says something about how Tammy Simon wants to show up and you could actually create a behavioral plan, a values-based behavior just based on that little nightmare review.

And you can feel as you are, just write your nightmare, review the constriction, the physical, like shutting down friction in your body, constriction in your body. When you’re out of alignment with your values, we feel it. It’s an embodied experience. can also, and I could tell when you were describing the five star review, the openness, the freedom, the ah, this is how I wanna live. And that does [00:27:00] not always map onto shoulds or expectations or, um. someone’s life plan for you is supposed to look like. It, it’s very unique to you. So values, living your values is a very personalized, um, embodied and intrinsically motivating source of energy. And we know that like when, when we’re out of alignment, we feel constricted.

When we’re in alignment, we feel open, we feel more free. So I love that exercise ’cause it’s quick and easy. People could do a nightmare review of the year, but they could also do like a nightmare. You could do a nightmare review of your relationship, a nightmare review of your podcast, a nightmare review, um, of your parenting, right?

A nightmare review of your, uh, Thanksgiving dinner. it’ll give you pretty quick some information about how you actually wanna show up in those places what you write down as your nightmare is an arrow pointing to what you’ll regret and what you regret tells you about what you value.

Tami Simon: Now also, you can write the five star review too, [00:28:00] right? Because that shows you where you’re, where you’re going. Now, one of the lines I, I pulled out of the book and you were talking about ACT and you said, ACT has a motto, pain and values are two sides of the same coin. And I thought, I don’t, I don’t fully understand that.

I wanna understand that.

Diana Hill: Uh, you be willing to do it experientially with me? A little bit?

Tami Simon: Yeah, sure.

Diana Hill: Okay. Um, imagine that you have a, a piece of paper in front of you. Okay. And on one side of the paper, if you were to write down something that is, um, painful to you, that you’re willing to disclose on the air right now, something that’s painful to you in your life, something that is bothering you, that’s on your mind, that’s uncomfortable, what would you write down on one side of the paper?

Tami Simon: Uh, that I don’t have a closer relationship with certain members in my family.

Diana Hill: You don’t have a closer relationship with certain members of your [00:29:00] family. Yeah. estrangement is actually, um, whether you’re estranged or you have a distance from them, it’s one of the most painful things that people describe in life. We think about it all the time, even though we’re not contacting them, you know? And, um, what are the feelings that are associated not having that, that close relationship? Like if you could put some, if you were to write down some words that would describe the feelings there.

Tami Simon: Disconnected, uh, alone. Un I, no. They’re all various versions of disconnected.

Diana Hill: Disconnected. Okay. So we have on one side of the paper. This is the pain. You said? Pain and values are the two sides of the same coin. I don’t get this. Okay, one side of the paper is the pain. Imagine that’s one side of the coin. Flip the paper over. Imagine flipping the paper in your mind. On the other side of the paper, I would want you to write down or tell me [00:30:00] about why does this matter to you?

What do you care about that makes it painful for you to be disconnected from your family?

Tami Simon: Yeah, I wanna feel more of a sense of belonging. Now this gets a little complicated, Diane, and I wasn’t prepared to get into all of this with you, but I know

Diana Hill: a therapist.

Tami Simon: that’s right. Exactly. She’s turned the tables. Uh, but part of me is like, you know, look, I’ll let, let these relationships be natural. They’re disconnected.

That’s okay. So there’s a rational part that comes on here that says,

Diana Hill: story come in yet. We’re not gonna have the story. I’m just Why do you care? Why do you care?

Tami Simon: well, that’s it.

Diana Hill: you

Tami Simon: It’s hard.

Diana Hill: and not care?

Tami Simon: I, I, I sort of wanna be that way, but it’s not the truth.

Diana Hill: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you, you said it right. You said it right up. You said, I care about belonging. I mean, look at what you’ve done with your life, what you’ve created in your life. You’ve created communities of belonging. You create, we were just talking about the teams that sound true, that they’re teams of belonging.

And you [00:31:00] created books upon books that are kind of all point to community and belonging, connection, and love. Right? So if we have on one side of that paper disconnection, that’s the pain. The other side of the paper is I care about belonging. And what, what happens with pain is that we aren’t, we don’t feel pain around things that we don’t care about.

So I am a terrible bowler. I get like mostly gutter balls. I will pull up those like things on the side that bounce the ball off of it so I can just get a few, I don’t lose sleep over it, right? But if I have a session with a client, that’s painful. Or I don’t do a good job on, I’ll lose sleep over it. Why?

’cause I care about being a therapist and being an impactful therapist and helping people. So when you, if you’re estranged from family members or you have a disconnection from family members and one of your biggest values as demonstrated by much of your behavior in this world is belonging. Yeah. That’s gonna be painful, wise effort is [00:32:00] asking ourselves, what do we wanna do with that? one option would be take that piece of paper and say, don’t care about it. Rip it up,

Tami Simon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We’re gonna, we’re definitely changing the direction this podcast is going and the paper’s being ripped up. Uh, I’m done. I’m done with you in the paper, Diana.

Diana Hill: I’m done. Throw it away. I don’t wanna look at it. Right. And that’s what a lot of people try and do. They try and get rid of it. And what we know about the human mind is that the more you try and get rid of something, the louder it’s gonna come at you. You can’t get rid of it. ’cause you can’t get rid of your values or the things that you would have to do to numb out from that feeling. Have lots of secondary consequences. You’d have to drink a lot, you’d have to, you know, block a lot of numbers. You’d have to scrub, you know, a lot of effort involved in trying to shut out a feeling like that. So then the other thing that people tend to do is they walk around with that paper right up in front of their face, all entangled in it, or they try and, like you were saying, I’m gonna try and write another story on [00:33:00] top of it, like I’m gonna write all over it. That requires a lot of effort, and when you’re doing that, you also are blocking you what’s underneath it, which is belonging. So wise effort would be flip the paper over, see that the pain that I’m experiencing with my family points to my caring about belonging and how can I act on belonging in many different domains of my life today? How can I create belonging for myself? How can I feel belonging? can I create belonging for others? Which is kind of what you. Do and are doing right. And that’s bringing values into play. That’s where we have more agency. That’s a wiser use of our effort, is to act on our values. So any pain that you have in the book, I, um, I go through how to open up to a difficult feeling and, and I take people through this process that eventually ends up to what are the values that you wanna act on because of this feeling, you [00:34:00] know.

Tami Simon: Okay, now we have to talk about you, Diana, where you, you share in the book about your own journey earlier in your life with disordered eating, and I wanted to know if you could give us an example of how the Wise Effort program could help someone who’s dealing. With any kind of behavior, addictive behavior that they want to change.

I wanna change this thing and if you could use your own life story as an example to talk about how the Wise Effort Program see this, is it gonna turn it around? How the Wise Effort program can be effective in a situation like that.

Diana Hill: Well, you’re lucky you’re not my client ’cause I would hold you longer to the fire if you were, I would see this as a masterful avoidant strategy that you’re using here. Uh, but I,

Tami Simon: it’s part of my genius.

Diana Hill: Yes. There’s a [00:35:00] reason why you’re in this position, right? As the interviewer. Uh, so the Wise upper Method has three big brush, bro Best. Wise Effort Method has three big brushstroke, uh, steps to it. And, uh, I, I like three steps. I like to keep it simple, especially when you’re struggling with something like an addiction or you’re struggling with something that’s really painful. ’cause it seems like our mind just goes out the door and we don’t know what to do, at least when I’m in that place. So the first step is get curious. second step is open up. And the third step is focus your energy for me. Uh, get curious, began with the experience of wow, am doing the same samsara over and over and over again. And what is going on here from a true curious mind, not from a self berating, I did it again.

I’m a screw up. I’m a failure. You know, I need to like start again on a Monday, January [00:36:00] 1st. But from a perspective of like really deeply curious what is happening for me that’s keeping me in this cycle of suffering. And for me, the particular cycle of suffering was this unique combination of, um, striving disordered eating to like maintain the striving, right?

So I was, um, a super high achiever. I got into a. Very, um, uh, prestigious high school. Top of the top of the top. And, and the way that I managed my anxiety and stress was through either an not eating or then turning into, into bulimia. It’s like the shadow side. And so I had to look at, okay, what, what, like, curious here, like what is it that’s driving that?

And there was three questions that I have people explore in the book. And the three questions are, one, are you stuck in a story? You know, what, what is the story that you’re stuck in? And for me that was very much like my worth is based on my achievements. I have to work harder than everyone [00:37:00] else to, to be worthy of any kind of love, have to prove myself. in a story? Many addictions have stories associated with them that are old. second, um, thing to get curious about is really about avoidance of discomfort. What is it that you are avoiding feeling or experiencing? And then the third one has to do with holding too tight. What are you holding Too tight to Sometimes our addictions are ways of holding onto or staying in something really need to let go of.

People continue in an addiction for a long time because they actually, what they really need to do is leave their unhealthy marriage or change something at their job, or their stress is so high and this is what they’re main, you know, using to maintain the life that they’re in. So we get curious and then we also get curious about our values.

And that, um, for me, got really clear I was, um, I relapsed so many times. I can’t even count many [00:38:00] of times of, of relapse. But I was in graduate school in my first year of my PhD program. And, um, I was researching like randomized controlled trials, um, for bulimia on the, on the. Uh, clinical psychology floor, and then I’d go up to the cognitive psychology floor to purge, you know, and go back down and work with these, um, clients.

And I remember driving home one day, um, in my PhD program, and I had all these like bags of binge food, Ben and Jerry’s and Reese’s butter cups and the car. And, and I looked at myself in the mirror and I could see these like huge bags under my eyes and these swollen glands. And that instant, I like had this flash of faces of all of the clients I’d seen. Like we were the same. Like there is no difference between me and them. And I on a very deep level [00:39:00] what I care about. I cared about them. I care about me. I care about alleviation of human suffering, and this is suffering, so we get clear on our values. That’s a big thing to get curious about. What do you care enough about be able to do the next step? So first we get curious. Then we move into open up to do the next step of open up. And if you are struggling with something like an addiction, there’s a lot of opening up to be done, opening up of secrets, opening up of your mind that there’s another way to live. Opening up of feelings, opening up your sense of self, opening up to change. And then the third step. So for me, that was leaving my program and going to a yoga ashram and finding other ways of being and getting honest first with my partner and with myself, and then focusing our energy. I ended up going back, I went back with a different type of mission. And it wasn’t a mission to prove myself, it was use myself.

Use what I’ve got. [00:40:00] Because much like that soldier behind the gun, maybe the person with a struggled this much. do something in this place, in this environment that could be helpful. And that was a focus of my energy and continues to be a focus of my energy. It continues to be the commitment of why I write book books, which are aren’t easy to write and take a lot of time and effort.

Why I see clients, um, why I train therapists, because there’s something in there that’s very wise effort for me that’s aligned with my values. It’s a using of my particular gifts on this planet and it’s a focus of my energy where I think is one place where I can give back ’cause I’ve received so much in my journey. So those are the three steps. Get curious, open up, focus, your energy. Everyone’s path is gonna look different in the book. I give lots of bullet points and steps of how to do it, ’cause that’s what I like to do. Um, but there’s, there’s many paths of, of recovery. And I also wanna say, it’s not a book that will tell you how to recover.

It’s not a treatment program. We need so [00:41:00] much more than just a book. But maybe it’s a starting spot if you do struggle with something like that.

Tami Simon: You write in wise effort. When you lapse, see it as a knock on your door, inviting you to remember your values. Once again, that landed for me this whole notion when lapsing a knock on the door to remember your values. How could you help someone right here who says, look, I gotta make this simple and clear what my values are, and I gotta like write ’em down, put it on a post-it, remember it.

I need this to be very clear in my life. What would you recommend?

Diana Hill: Think about the last 24 hours. Um, when did you feel the most open? When did you feel the most alive? When did you feel the most like you were, um, living [00:42:00] from the heart, that you had a flexible heart? What were you doing and what qualities would you put to that? And maybe their qualities like, uh, kindness or, um, compassion or adventurousness or creativity or playfulness, right? Or humorlessness. Write some of those down. another one. Think about somebody either you’ve met who inspires you or a spiritual figure that you look up to. What are the qua qualities that you admire in them the most? That if you could just have an ounce of that, like just a, just a little droplet of that into you, into your being.

And you could their eyes and see the world they see it through, or you could have their heart and, um, live that heart. Or you could have their hands and use their hands in the way they use their hands. What would those qualities be, you know, and write a few of those down and then you could do harder part, which is what’s most painful to you in [00:43:00] your life. Does it point to anything that’s out of alignment? What are the qualities there that you’re out of alignment with? Maybe it’s honesty, maybe it’s connection. Um, maybe it’s just being present with your kids. You know, the, the simple things, you know, like putting my phone down. I had the ping, I had the ping, ping ping of regret. It’s dropped my son off at school. He’s opening the door to get out to go to school and he opens the door and it’s this automatic pilot where like, we pulled into the parking lot and the first thing I did was grab the phone to look at my schedule. You know, like, oh, the car’s parked. I’m gonna look at my schedule for the day while he’s getting out of the car and he’s off. then I put the phone down and I look up and he’s gone. Ouch. That points to my values in the last 24 hours of something I wanna dial back, right? I need to dial into being present. And so we can use our OES as [00:44:00] points to our values. We can also use our people that we admire, and then we can use those moments when we feel open and free and like, wow, something is jiving here.

This is how I wanna be in the world. And you could write those down on Post-It notes. I would encourage flexibility with it because I get a little bit like, you know, we all get our values lists and then we put ’em on our journal and we put ’em in the break room at the, you know, grocery store. And that means nothing. What, what means a lot is the embodiment of it, the living of it, the feeling of it, the action of it. If someone’s videotaping you, they can tell you, exactly what you value. ’cause it’s all over your behavior. Your fingerprints all over the, your life. Demonstrate it.

Tami Simon: That was really helpful. Thank you so much. You were describing the wise effort method, being curious, opening up, focusing our energy. And when you were talking about opening up, you were talking [00:45:00] about opening up to feelings and how that could be among other things opening up in many ways. But the part of opening up to our feelings, especially if there’s some kind of addictive behavior going on that we might be trying to avoid our feelings and in the Wise Effort book you, you actually go through six steps as part of the process of opening up to our feelings.

And there were a couple here that I thought were really useful that, uh, I hadn’t heard stated in just this way. And so you say first when you’re opening up to your feelings center yourself, make room for what’s hard. I was kind of with you, and then you said, take care of your feeling and give it a name.

And I thought, huh, I don’t do that. I don’t do that. I don’t give it a name and I’m not sure I know even what that means. [00:46:00] Take care of it. Ask what do I need? And then you end act from your values. Uh, but talk a little bit about this notion of taking care of your feeling, giving it a name, and asking What do I need?

Diana Hill: Oh, taking care of your feelings. Um, actually comes from one of the teachings of Brother Fpu, who’s the, the new Abbot of Plum Village, uh, in, um, France under Han. And had, uh, interviewed him and I’d gotten to know him ’cause we take our kids to Plum Village in the summer and my kids have gotten to know him. And I had asked my kid, my youngest, I said, do you have any questions for this zen monk? You know, I’m gonna interview him. What are your questions? uh, my, my youngest, he was nine at the time, and he had just moved his, his big brother had just moved out of the bunk bed, like they got their own room. It was kind of a big deal.

Like the 13-year-old needs out, right? The 9-year-old is there still in the bottom bunk without his big brother up there. [00:47:00] he said, um, well, will you ask Brother fpu? What, what can I do when I feel lonely at night? This one may be a good one for you, Tammy, given your loneliness. Um, so he said, what can I do?

What can I do when I feel lonely at night? And I recorded his little nine-year-old voice, and I played it Brother fpu and FPU said, oh, okay. What I want you to do is I want you to, when that loneliness shows up, I want you to say hello, loneliness. I’m here for you. see you. I’m with you, loneliness. And then all of a sudden, guess what?

Your loneliness won’t feel so lonely anymore you’re with your loneliness. I thought it was the, it was the sweetest thing. So then like a few weeks later, I go, I go into my son’s room, I’m like making up, you know, his bed and like cleaning up the smelly socks. And then on top of his bunk, you know how they have that, like those slats in the bo the bunk bed, he had placed this little piece of [00:48:00] paper in the little piece of paper it said, hello loneliness. And it was the sweet, like he’d written it when he couldn’t sleep at night and he, he put it up there like, he’s here for it. So we can, we can take care of our feelings. And sometimes that’s just going to our feeling. making space for it. It’s allowing it to be that we don’t have to kick it out so quickly. don’t wanna kick your loneliness outta town. Your loneliness needs some, some comfort. And we can comfort our feelings. We can be with it, we can call it as, as Ty would say, call it by its true name. Just naming our feelings can be very helpful in terms of regulating, you know, it activates more of our frontal lobe when we, when we give our name, a name to our feelings.

But sometimes, naming it is like, too advanced. Like, know, just point to it, you know, where does it hurt? Is it, is it, you know, up here on your chest or down here in your belly? And, and then go to it. that’s a, um, a very, um, simple practice of taking care of our feelings. But you could do it with anything.

Hello? Fear. Hello. Anger? [00:49:00] Yeah. Hello. Anxiety. I see you. not going anywhere. I’m here for you.

Tami Simon: In this section of the Wise Effort book, you also shared about your own journey with your husband when he started having a vision loss experience, and how you were able to use, again, the wise effort method, effectively opening up to your feelings and tapping into your genius back to that point in a situation where you would think that maybe your genius would get away from you.

And I wonder if you can share a bit about that as an example. Once again.

Diana Hill: Yeah. You know, my husband has a, um, habit. We live in Santa Barbara in the foothills, and he has a habit of calling me, from my office up to the house when there’s a big red tail hawk going by. And, uh, so he’ll be like, Diana, come up to the house [00:50:00] and usually I’m finishing, hold on, I’m finishing something up.

Right? But. One day he called me up to the house and, and when I came in I was expecting the red tail hawk, but what he was telling me is that he couldn’t see a big portion of my face. He was having pretty rapid, um, vision loss. And, um, what happened afterwards was really interesting to me, and I think is the very common for anybody that experiences something extremely scary and painful, which is we wanna avoid it. And so I started, when we’d be in the kitchen, I started noticing him doing these types of behaviors that were indicating that he couldn’t see me. It was so excruciatingly painful that the experience that he can’t see in my face and then all the story that I added onto that about how he’s not gonna be there for, to see our kids.

And he is not gonna be able to, we we’re baseball families. He’s not gonna be able to throw the ball with the boys. And the, the whole thing, um, that I started like really getting rigid [00:51:00] and shutting down around it and. Just like that, you know, sort of the paper piece of paper that on one side is the pain around my husband’s, my husband’s vision loss. What’s on the other side of that paper my deep love for this man in our connection. Why do I want him to see me? Because there’s no one more on this planet that I want to see me as my partner, right? Or my kids like I wanna see him, I want him to see me. And so what I had to do there, um, was open up to the pain of it so that I could be with it. And then that is connected to my, both my emotional sensitivity and my, and my persistence, which is another one of my geniuses that has an, you know, an ugly flavor to it when it’s pursuing things like, you know, eating disorders and achievements. But actually what I could do is start to use that emotional sensitivity to connect. him, then use the persistence to work with him. Like, we’re gonna go, we’re gonna go and drive to UCLA [00:52:00] and do all the things that you need to do, and I’m gonna be with you and you know, shuffle down those hallways together while you do all the surgeries and all the things. But it requires opening up to the thing that you don’t wanna open up to in order to do that.

And that’s the case for many different pains in our life. Many people have. don’t get through this without having multiple experiences of the rug being pulled out from you, and then the floor being pulled out from underneath that rug. And the question becomes, when you’re in that groundlessness and when you’re in that pain, are you turning towards or are you turning away? And if you’re turning towards, there’s something that’s worth turning towards pain. You know, and, and it’s usually love or connection or you care about. So that was the, uh, the, the feeling section of the book. Um, I could not write about it, but it’s, it’s still painful. It’s still kind of like, I, even as I’m talking about it, I can feel the [00:53:00] discomfort.

Tami Simon: Now, as I mentioned, the the sixth step you offer in your six steps about opening to difficult feelings is choosing to act according to our values, and that’s a theme that runs through. The Wise Effort method, and you talk about something called Choice Points, which I understand is also a teaching from act.

This notion that there are choice points. And as I started focusing on my values, reading the Wise Effort book, these choice points became in higher relief choice. Am I gonna make the phone call? Am I not gonna make the phone call? Am I gonna tear up that sheet of paper that I wrote that stuff on, that you told me or not, you know, et cetera.

And I, I think that’s, um, extraordinarily interesting. So first of all, I just want to hear more what you think about suddenly seeing all these choice points in different moments in our life. [00:54:00] Little things.

Diana Hill: little things, choice points. Uh, concept was coined by, um, Joe Cchi, Russ Harris. Um, and what it means is, is that any moment in time we have a choice, we have a choice to turn our behavior towards our values or turn our behavior away from our values. That moment in the car with my son, when I chose to pick up the phone, it didn’t feel like a choice point ’cause it was so automatic.

I just kind of, some of our choice points, we just, they’re like speed bumps that we just fly over and then we get the after we’ve flown over it, right? So that can be a little wake up call to, that was a choice point. But good news, when you have that happen, there’s gonna be another choice point. There, there you will be faced by another opportunity. And, um, waking up, getting curious, staying open gives you the chance to then see that choice point as like a pulling of the thread where you can start to unravel [00:55:00] your energy and put it into wiser habits. Habits that are expansive, habits that spiral out habits that have a positive impact on the world. It requires seeing those choice points and require, requires, you know, uh, getting the ver reverberation of when you don’t choose in alignment with your values and seeing that is just a little, it’s just a little reminder, you know, it’s just a little reminder, a little kink in the neck that reminds you to. Adjust your posture. Yeah. So I, I love choice points because it, there’s something so, um, compassionate about that and that you are the chooser, you know, it’s like the, the five remembrances and Buddhism, right? The fifth remembrance is that your actions are really your only belongings. You know, that’s choice points.

That’s like, that’s behavioralism in a nutshell, that, that you get to act you get to, you get to choose again. Here and now.

Tami Simon: Okay. I am gonna ask a very basic question. One of the books you co-wrote was on [00:56:00] exercise. What’s the name of the book, Diana.

Diana Hill: I know I should exercise, but with

Tami Simon: Right. So I wanna ask about that, but, and Choice Points and your work with Wise effort, because I know I should do exercises. These particular, they help me. I see it as a choice point.

I saw it as a choice point while I was reading the book. Get Up from the Couch, Tammy, it’d be good for you to do those exercises. They only take you 10 minutes and they always make you feel better. But I didn’t. I just didn’t, and I wasn’t telling myself a big story or anything. I just didn’t want to, it was just this sort of inertia and this sort of, you know, I’m comfortable.

I don’t want to, how do you use the wise effort method in a situation like that where you’re just, you could say, I’m lazy, whatever you want to call it. I have a goal, I have a value. I’m not doing it.

Diana Hill: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, uh, [00:57:00] I love this question. You’ll notice that I am standing right now and I’m shifting, uh, my weight. And if you looked underneath me, you would see some random balls where I’m like flexing my foot, rolling my body, you know, because I care so much about, um, taking care of my body.

Why lot of years of not. A lot of years of harm and, uh, so, so I know I should exercise, but is a tongue in cheek because that’s the line that we all say and, and really it’s, I know I should exercise and, and get rid of the should. And I would get really curious about, you use the word inertia, so if we start with we know it’s get curious, open up, focus your energy, right? So I would get curious about that inertia that you’re describing. Is it a physical inertia? Is it, you said in my mind, I just don’t want to. Right. Um, and then I would also get curious about your values because it sounds like you kind of have them all on like a pretty surface level and I need them much deeper [00:58:00] than what you just described. So I need, we’ll start with values. I’m gonna throw us out 10 years from now, if you were to continue to not move. that you’re not moving, you’re writing, you do probably a lot of computer work 10 years from now, what are you going to regret about not moving your body?

Tami Simon: Oh, it’s not gonna be a pretty picture. There will be a lot to regret for sure.

Diana Hill: You, you gotta gimme more than that.

Tami Simon: Okay. I’ll be hunched over. I’ll, you know, I’ll have, I mean, it it, I’ll be using a cane. I mean, it could get really bad.

Diana Hill: Yeah. And why? Why would that be a problem? What would that block you from that you care about if you’re hunched over and using a cane? Not that

Tami Simon: Sure. I enjoy, I enjoy walking outside and, uh, being in the woods and being mobile to go down to the beach, all kinds of things and walk on [00:59:00] slippery rocks.

Diana Hill: Okay. Why do you enjoy that? We’re digging deeper. I’m sorry. I’m

Tami Simon: That’s okay. Uh uh, because I love the experience of being outdoors and feeling free.

Diana Hill: Yeah. So you value being outdoors and feeling free. That’s big. a big thing. And when you choose, when there’s a choice point and you choose to get up and move, you’re choosing for that. So actually that’s the value that I want upfront in, in your face of like, I’m choosing a life I will have more option, guaranteed, but more option for more of my life.

Being outside and having the experience of being free. And that is big for me. And every time I don’t choose to get up and I choose to listen to that inertia and I allow the inertia to drive the bus and drive me, I’m turning away from that. I’m turning my back on being outside. I want you to imagine I’m turning my back on being [01:00:00] outside and being free when I’m, when I don’t do it. Do you feel energetically that what that would feel like in your body, the

Tami Simon: Well, well, yeah. What I, what I notice is. I’m sort of reflecting on the methodology for a moment as well as being in touch with myself, but that you’re helping tune into a type of deep motivation versus some kind of discipline thing.

Diana Hill: Yeah. won’t win. Any teacher can tell you that we, we all know how to take the test but not learn the material. Right. So the, the, the what wins is deep motivation and what wins is. Um, you know, there was this line, um, about transformation, which is, you know, that you’ve experienced transformation.

When it’s no longer I should or I have to, it becomes that I cannot [01:01:00] not, I cannot not care for my body at this point in my life. I’ve transformed that relationship even if I wake up in the morning, or even if I’m, I don’t want to, and the inertia sets in. I, I cannot not, because my love is so big. If your love is so big for freedom and for outdoors and for nature, you cannot not get up and move. That’s, that’s values. Values are like deep, deep, deep. And usually what people do is they just skirt the surface like you were doing. Like, I just, I value my health. I value, like, you gotta go deeper than that. The other thing that I highly recommend is practicing disobeying yourself. So I’m full of inertia.

I can’t, well, there’s lots of things that you, that you do that you say you can’t do. You know, you wake up in the morning and you say, I can’t get outta bed. And somehow you swing your legs over and you, you do it. You, you know, you got an interview and you’re like, oh, I can’t do today. Somehow you do it right?[01:02:00]

And why wouldn’t you give yourself that gift too, of, of disobeying the mind and proving yourself wrong? And that’s psychological flexibility. That’s opening up, opening up your mind. Are you sure? Asking yourself that? Are you. You know, I don’t wanna, are you sure? Because I remember you had that conversation with Diana where you were pretty darn sure that you wanna, when you connected with a future self, with a wiser self, with a bigger self. So those are some of the practices of opening up the mind, opening up to feeling, being willing to be uncomfortable in the service of the big why, and then opening up to your value and then opening up to change. I have a little chapter on that, which is like, um, very related to the, I know I should exercise butt book with Katie Bowman.

’cause she’s the most creative human on this planet when it comes to movement, exercise. And uh, it’s, try something different, anything different. ’cause we just tend to do it the same way. We have these really rigid views about what exercise is or what even physical therapy is, or what movement is. And what Katie opened me up to is the possibility that I could be moving my body in all different ways.

Like, you know, I’m like [01:03:00] whipping my own cream. You know, we passed the whipping bowl around our house because that’s movement. Right. I’m, I’m, I’m lugging the compost and I’m thinking, wow, this is sort of like the farmer’s carry that we did at the gym, right? So starting to get a more flexible mind around movement, and that’s wise effort too, incorporating.

If you value that, then you start to incorporate that into your everyday living. So I’m having an interview with Tammy Simon. Then I’m taking care of my body in the process. I’m not throwing my body out the door for the hour.

Tami Simon: Very helpful. Okay. Final thing I want to talk about, Diana, you have a podcast called Wise Effort, and one of the episodes had to do with doing an energy audit, and you had four criteria when making a decision, and I really liked this. You said, is it a drain or gain at the body level? Does this align with my values?

Yes, of course. Whatever this decision is, is [01:04:00] this using my unique genius? Is this a drain or gain for others? And you said in your experience when you’re making a decision facing a choice point of a certain kind, if three of these are. Yes for you, then you can go ahead. But if that’s not the case, it doesn’t work.

How did you come up with this four question criteria, which I think is extraordinarily insightful.

Diana Hill: Gosh, working with clients for so many years, helping make big decisions and, uh, how much they are stuck in their heads when they make decisions. Because often the criteria that we’re using are things like pros and cons lists, which are endless. You can add another pro, you can add another con, you can debate yourself, right? Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde on your two shoulders. And, um, or you depend on what everyone else thinks you should do. I start with the body. ’cause I believe that the body has a lot of wisdom to it. You’ve, you’ve all [01:05:00] experienced a whole body. No. And when you’ve overridden that your body said no, but you said yes, you’ll pay the consequences down the road.

Sometimes I’ll tell people, I’m like, I’m in the consequences of my whole body. No. From six months ago when I said, I said yes to something my body said no to. So we listened to our body, but it’s not just our body, right? Um, our wisdom is, is so much more than even just our body. So we can also help make us our, our decision based on our, our genius, because. Things will be easier for you if you’re using your gifts and talents. You know, someone asked me to write an academic paper versus write a paper for tricycle or Psychology today, or, you know, like one of those is a little bit easier for me. It, it just flows. My, um, my good friend Jenny Nash, she’s like, it’s like butter on hot toast. know that you’re in your genius when it’s like butter on hot toast, not butter on cold toast, right? So if if it, if it uses your genius, then things will come to you. It’ll flow through you. You’ll be able to do that thing with [01:06:00] gusto. And then your values not always easy. That’s why you need your genius.

Sometimes it’s harder, like my values are, I wanna move my body even though I’m writing this book, right? Or working on this project. And so your values can be that, that inner motivation. But most importantly, and this is why I do think a narcissist should read the book, you can buy it for your friend.

That’s a narcissist. Is that zooming out. Beyond ourselves if we need anything on this planet. It’s, it’s, it’s zooming out beyond ourselves and asking is this of service to something beyond just me with a little s? And if it is, that’s a great decision. That’s, that’s a great use of your energy as long as it’s in line with your values and you have that whole body.

Yes. Right. Or as long it’s, uh, using your genius and it’s aligned with your value. So you don’t want it just to be that, because then you’re just giving it all away. I, I really see Wise Everett as a regenerative flow where you, you are receiving energy and you’re giving energy and then you don’t get so burned out [01:07:00] and then you feel alive in your life.

And then you also feel like you’re contributing something to this planet. And your body’s, you know, it’s like in, in a whole body. Yes. State most of the time, which is a great place to be open.

Tami Simon: I want to thank you, Diana, uh, not just for pouring your intelligence as a gift to others and to the book Wise Effort, but here in our conversation between you and I, you challenged me, you put me on the spot, you turned the tables, and, uh, not every guest does that. So, uh, thank you and you made me search deeper for what I care the most about.

And it’s true. It has to do with connection. And thank you for connecting. Here with me in such an open and challenging and good way, and bringing your gifts to the Sounds True audience. Thank you,

Diana Hill: Thank you Tammy. Thanks for doing it with me. It’s always fun to feel engaged with another human and I found this hour very good use of energy and I feel more [01:08:00] energized at the end of it, which is a good sign too as well.

Tami Simon: Diana Hill, author of The New book, Wise Effort, How to Focus Your Genius on What Matters Most.