Tama Kieves: Being Available to Infinite Intelligence

Tama Kieves: When you’re not trusting yourself, when you’re not listening to your love, when you’re not listening to the light that is in you and only in you, when you’re not doing what you’re meant to do, supposed to hurt.

It’s supposed to feel empty. I wanna know what happens if I listen to a voice of love inside me instead of a voice of fear.

Tami Simon: Welcome friends. In this episode of Insights at the Edge. My guest is Tama Kes, an honors graduate of Harvard Law School, who left her law practice with a prestigious corporate law firm to write and also to help others unlock the extraordinary faculties that we all possess. Tama is the author of six books, including Thriving Through Uncertainty, a Year Without Fear and a new book.

It’s a book that I read. I have to be honest with you, I didn’t know what to expect. And as I cracked it open and started reading it, it felt to me like sitting with a prayer book. It felt like a book I could center myself in, in my own deepest heart. But here’s the really interesting thing. At the same time, I laughed out loud with this prayer book on every other page.

It’s called Learning to Trust Yourself, breaking Through the Blocks That Hold You Back. And that’s what we’re gonna be talking about. Tamma welcome.

Tama Kieves: I am so excited to be here, so honored.

Tami Simon: You and I have something in common. People in your life have called you, uh, a doubting tam, and people have called me that too. Uh, it’s interesting, you question everything, and at the same time, you’re the most faithful person I’ve ever met. This is a description that you, uh, shared that one of your friends said about you.

So right here at the, at the beginning, what’s it like for you to balance this questioning mind and faithful inner knowing at the same time?

Tama Kieves: Well, well first of all, who said there’s balance anywhere in this mind, but thank you of. You know, I, I think, I think I want people to know that you can be extraordinarily faithful and extraordinarily inspired and on fire and committed to your life. And you could be doubting like crazy. Uh, you know, and my mind has both faculties. My mind goes back and forth and back and forth, but I believe it’s part of the path. I believe that’s how we learn to trust ourselves, is that we, we go into situations that maybe make our, uh, us doubt ourselves. learn how to be with that. And we learn how to rise and we learn how to choose another intelligence.

So my doubt in its own way has actually made me stronger. If, if I wasn’t a doubtful person, I would never have sought out spirituality. I would never have been looking for anything. I, I, I just, you know, I just wanted to get by, be successful, whatever. But it was so much pain or so much of self-doubt in my life and so much of doubt in my dreams and doubt in my desires that made me seek out something higher.

So I think they play well together. And I, you know, and, and for me a lot of times, you know, when I, when I lead a workshop or I’m, uh, leading a retreat, I’ll always tell people that, you know, the fact that I have fears, the fact that I, um, am still going through things. Sometimes this is good for you. It means I’m at my growth edge.

It means I’m growing, it means I’m focusing. Right. I don’t have it all together. Right. And that makes, that makes me a better teacher sometimes because I can, if they have an issue, I can relate whatever issue you have, I have it. I’ve had it. Right. Um, so, uh, I just wanted people to know at the outset with learning to trust yourself that you didn’t quote, have to be good at it.

This is the practice. It’s, it’s a, it’s a mindfulness practice.

Tami Simon: Part of the premise that I love in learning to trust yourself is that we’re undoing the blocks to trust. You go further to the awareness of love’s presence. What I like about this is that we’re not adding something on as much as undoing some type of kink in the hose or covering or obscuration, and to begin with, I wonder how you see this, this notion of uncovering blocks.

Tama Kieves: yes, yes, yes. I think that’s really what we’re doing at this time in life. You know, to really be alive is to undo any block or any doubt or any pain that has ever stopped you before that. I don’t think it’s about self-improvement. I don’t think it’s so much about I have to learn to be better and better and better. I wanna learn to be me. I wanna learn to be who I’m really, really meant to be. And so often we don’t even realize that these blocks are holding us back. That and what? ’cause, because the blocks seem real, they seem normal. They seem realistic, right? They, you know, so the, the most common one, for instance, is, uh. We think we’re being realistic, we think we’re being practical. We don’t realize that no, actually that might be a way of not listening to your deepest, deepest truth. So I, I’m just gonna give you an example because you know, I’m, uh, you know, I always do examples and it’s how I came to all this work. And, uh, because a block in my own mind of being realistic almost stopped me from my greatest life, my destiny, right?

So, um, when I was younger, I, when I was very younger, I knew that I wanted to write. That was my dream. I loved writing and I took, uh, creative writing in high school, and the teacher was gorgeous. So I thought, oh my God, it’s a sign, you know? And I went, I went home to share this news that I had found my calling.

I wanna be a writer, but I grew up in Brooklyn, New York, and my family was Orthodox Jewish. And my mother just said something like, you are gonna write. You are gonna write, you are gonna starve, you’re gonna write. And that was it. That was the go for your dreams talk. Um, and then she said something, uh, practical or reasonable.

Like what? You can’t get a job. You’ll write on the Sundays, right? And so many of us hear this advice, be practical. Be reasonable, stay safe. Don’t listen to what’s inside you. Don’t listen to what moves. You don’t listen to what calls you. And so I listened and I, you know, I listened to her. I listened to what I was supposed to do, like many of us do. I went to law school. I got accepted to Harvard Law School. I graduated with honors from Harvard Law School. My mother was very proud, bragging in every synagogue. Um, but I was on partnership track in a major law firm. I felt so empty and in so much pain because I had success. The way you’re supposed to have success, what the world tells you.

If you have this, you’ll be okay. If you have that, you’ll be okay. And I just felt like, oh my God, what is wrong with me? I don’t feel okay. And here’s what’s supposed to happen. When you’re not trusting yourself, when you’re not listening to your love, when you’re not listening to the light that is in you and only in you, the gifts that you have to give humanity, when you’re not doing what you’re meant to do, supposed to hurt.

It’s supposed to feel empty. And so thank God, a friend at the time said, you know, think about it. If you’ve been this successful doing something you don’t love, what could you do with what you love? that’s what began my entire journey. That’s, that’s what started everything is I thought, get one life. I wanna know what happens if I listen to a voice of love inside me instead of a voice of fear. For me, that’s what learning to trust yourself is all about, is how do you listen to that voice of love, that voice of a higher intelligence that’s connected to your greatest potential. Right? And most of us are blocking ourselves thinking, I have to be realistic.

I have to be practical. Instead of following that energy that’s gonna take you all the way.

Tami Simon: You know, I have to bring up and I will throughout our conversation, the potential pain and disappointment of people who are listening, who are partially inspired by the sparkling possibilities of what you’re describing. But also like, guess what? Tamma, I did that. I did the unreasonable thing. I tried it and it didn’t work out.

It didn’t work out, and now I’m here listening to you and I have this, I, I, I tried, I made, I took this risk and, you know, it fell apart. And, and now I, I have this sense of failure and yet also longing.

Tama Kieves: yes, yes. So well put. Um, that is such a good question and I’m really glad you brought it up ’cause it’s such a good distinction. I’m a coach and I deal with that question every day and, and it’s an excellent question. And here’s the thing. When you follow that inner voice, that inner inspiration, that spark, right? about having a relationship with yourself of kindness, of patience, of follow through. And it doesn’t mean that just because I have a dream that Oh, I’m gonna follow my guidance and I’m gonna make a million dollars, right? It doesn’t mean that that form is what’s gonna happen. It does mean that if you stay in touch with yourself, you are gonna grow. What happens to most of us is that something didn’t happen the way we wanted and we shut down. We just get disappointed. Like you said, I’ve gone through that. You get disappointed. You think, yeah, this doesn’t work. Manifestation. Yeah. Right. Of you know of and you shut down and that’s the problem. The only thing I’m ever trying to get people to is opening their heart again to themselves and to their lives.

And it is the willingness to say, I don’t know the form this needs to take. I don’t know even my highest happiness, but I’m gonna follow this energy and I’m not gonna shut down. And so to give you a practical example, it took, it took me 12 years to write my very first book. Um, I left law, it took me 12. It was not like instant like woo-hoo.

I just trust that it happens. And it didn’t mean it got published right away either. Um, it took me 12 years to write it. I went through disappointment after disappointment after disappointment, and I just kept coming back and going, don’t know what else to do. This feels right. And one of the things I tell everybody I speak to is I always tell the story of that it took 12 years is because I try to tell people it took 11 years. For me to believe in myself and 11 years to believe that there was a universe that cared about me, that I could trust that 11 years to believe in something higher, 11 years to believe I was worth something, and one year to write a book. So things take time because the ultimate goal of this path isn’t just the form, but the growth, the relationship I’m having with myself.

Even if I had never published that book, right, I would’ve been disappointed as a human being. I grew so much. I stood up for myself. I stayed with something, even though it wasn’t, I changed forms. I adapted. I, I kept going. I kept believing. I would be guided, and I was, and I look back every day and think, oh my God, what if I hadn’t trusted that?

Oh my God, what if I hadn’t listened? So if so, if a listener is listening and thinking, yeah, I am never dating again because I tried trusting, and then I da dated the psychopath or the narcissist or whatever. It’s hard. I, I hear you. I’m the first one. I, I suffer from like, immediate looking for disappointment.

There’s a, there’s radar in me that’s always looking for it, I have to keep coming back to opening my heart again. I’m willing to believe in my life again. And the reason I’m willing to believe in my life again ’cause this is the only life I’ve got that I know of. And I wanna be available. I wanna open up because if I shut down it’s game over. It’s not only game over to that particular dream, it’s game over to all dreams, right? So all I’m ever trying to do is help people see they’re learning, how they’re growing, how they’re, how they’re being moved, you know, because sometimes people will say, like you said, I listened and it didn’t work out.

I had a client years ago who started a business and she said, Tim, I tried that. I listened. I started the business. And yeah, it was working a little bit, but then I went bankrupt, right? And so I talked to her more and what had happened was she had listened and then she stopped listening. She had, she had assumed the guidance was to keep the store open and just keep the store open no matter what.

Even though she was getting guidance at the time that I’m tired, I don’t really feel like this anymore. She wasn’t listening to that. So for me, this isn’t a one-time thing. This is a constant, constant, you know, listening to the nuances It’s taken me a billion years to realize this, but it is, it is a truth that I now serve. I do not, and it’s a lot that I talk about in learning to trust yourself. not about the form of our lives. It’s not about what the, our lives look like. It’s what it feels like. And we get to determine what it feels like. We get to determine what we focus on, you know, so when I left law, I, I downsized everything.

I lived in a tiny little studio apartment in Capitol Hill, and, you know, I was super poor and, you know, and I would like, you know, what it looked like, you know, when I get my Harvard alumni magazines, their bathrooms were bigger than, you know, like my entire living space. And I would feel bad and compare myself, but if I were just listening to what it felt like. It felt exciting. I was on an adventure and I was really proud of myself for trying, and I was giving myself a chance, and I was going beyond what it looked like and I was staying in touch, right? So I’m always trying to help people stay in touch with what’s working in their lives and why they’re doing what they’re doing.

So, great question. Thank

Tami Simon: Well, also, and just to take a moment, I’m so glad you stuck with writing, uh, those 12 years to write your first book and now six books because you’re a gorgeous writer. And

Tama Kieves: Oh,

Tami Simon: I don’t laugh out loud easily. I don’t, I wish I did. I don’t. And you know how to tickle my funny bone in your writing, Tam. It’s really true.

Tama Kieves: God.

Tami Simon: Towards the end of the book, you talk about two practices that we can use to help us to continue on this journey of trusting ourself. And I, I wanna especially talk about one of them. The first one, which is be kind to you. And then the second practice that, uh, you offer is to choose again, choose again.

And I think you’ve already sort of underscored this notion that even if we’ve been disappointed, we can choose again. But this be kind to you, I wanna find out. What you do when you hear a voice inside that’s not kind, and how you can help our listeners who perhaps are hearing such a voice even as they’re listening to you now.

Tama Kieves: Perfect question. Um, first of all, I’ll back up and I’ll say it was a revelation for me to say that the practice was to be kind to myself. That was like, that was a new thing to really, really own that because I grew up in a culture, an alpha centric, achievement oriented culture that like you’re not doing wealth and push harder. Buck up, right? Make it work. What’s wrong with you? Other people can do it. So I had a very, and still have a very critical voice, and I had a belief that, that cri secretly, I had a belief that that critical voice was necessary for my success. I believe that if I was kinder, well, I just watch Netflix and just hang out, eating in chocolate bar milk, chocolate mind you of, you know of, and that I, I wouldn’t accomplish anything or do anything.

And it has been the revelation of my lifetime and probably the point of my lifetime to, uh, be kind, to be incredibly kind to this vessel, to this being that serves this one light. Like I believe each of us has a singular path that, that, uh, that we are meant. To serve the gifts that are in us. And I’ll just say one other quick thing before I say how to do it.

Um, is that another huge revelation for me. So I studied Course in Miracles and I teach Course in Miracles and have for decades. Um, and it’s a path of living in love instead of fear. And it’s all about hearing your higher intelligence and all of that, right? What I never realized and what I came to for myself was I can’t hear a loving voice in the universe while I’m being critical of myself. I can’t hear God, I can’t hear the universe. I can’t hear the Shakti, whatever, I can’t hear whatever it is, you know, like whatever. It’s whatever you’re supposed to hear, right? I will not hear that. I will not feel that. While I’m being cruel to myself because it’s a different frequency, right? When I’m on that energy of this is wrong with you and why can’t you get it together and what’s, you know, and you’re so old already and you’re, you’re thinking of this now and blah, blah, blah.

When I’m on that frequency, I am no longer available to the genius that’s available to all of us. So being kind to myself has become a deeply spiritual path because I realize I want to serve this flow of energy, this flow of intelligence, these gifts, these creative gifts. I am a creative person for a living, right?

That’s what I do. And. I have to stay available to that. I cannot write well when I’m criticizing myself. Go figure. believe me, I hear that all the time. I’ll be writing and my critical voice will go, really? You’re gonna use the word the again. Really? You know? Oh, you’re so creative of, right. You can’t hear the flow.

The flow, the flow. So that’s, that’s, I just wanted to back up and

Tami Simon: It’s a very, very important point, so I’m glad you’re underscoring it.

Tama Kieves: Yeah. That why being kind is so important. Um, and so there’s a million different ways probably. People have to get their their own. And I will always say, by the way, find your path. Find your way. Right?

Like, use the teachers that serve you. If, if it’s not resonating for you, it’s not your way, right? I took your thinking, oh my God, they do it that way. That must be the right way. How come I can’t get it? Until I started realizing, oh, ’cause I have my way if I trust myself. So. The main thing I personally do, um, there’s a few things I personally do, but, um, the main thing I do is, um, I know that there’s two different voices within me.

A lot of times we think there’s like 5,000 different voices in us, and there probably are of, but there’s love or fear, right? There’s, there’s just different perceptions of way to see it. And so while that critical voice or that unruly protector or whatever, uh, is talking and it feels very, very real. I have to remind myself it’s not the ultimate reality.

It feels real, but it’s not necessarily the truth. So I have a technique that I personally have used for years, uh, that I call the inspired self dialogues. Um, and it’s you and I talked to, I talked to you very briefly before we talked, um, and it’s, it’s a tool that I’m gonna offer to the Sounds True

Tami Simon: Wonderful.

Tama Kieves: I’ll tell a little. I’ll tell a little bit about it. Uh, for me personally, and I, I inflicted on all my clients, I inflicted on all my workshops, I inflicted everywhere. For me personally, it is nothing that cha was the game changer for me. It was nothing because I have a busy mind. Um, I’m sure you can’t imagine that.

I’m sure that’s like really hard to, hard to see. But, uh, go with me, um, of, I have a very busy mind and I admire the heck out of people who can find that infinite quiet and, and still the mind or whatever. That was not my way initially of I have to honor the busy mind. So I have to write out my fears and I have to listen to that concerns and the frustration or the anger or whatever it is. And then I, I have a technique that I’ll, that it teaches you how to listen to. An extraordinary voice of a higher love. Um, and different people get there in different ways, and I walk you through that. But of just that there is what I will say, just in general, everybody, everybody, I don’t care who you are, everybody has a voice of infinite intelligence within them.

Within them, that that is available at. Any time it is that it is the negative voice that’s blocking it. Right? Um, and so for me, I write to the, I write about the fears, but then I write to that other voice and I dialogue back and forth. So like I said, um, it’s, I call it my best, my number one best tool ’cause it is.

Um, and uh, and, and I know you probably will put it in the show notes, but um, if people are interested, it’s at tkes.com, T-A-M-A-K-I-E-V-E s.com/best-tool. And it’s a short little video I created that just trains you, you do it with me right then and there, and I want you to do it. I really want you to have that experience of what I want for people, uh, whether it’s through the inspired self dialogues or it’s through anything else. I want people to have the experience of knowing that even though they feel like they’re critical and they feel like they’re broken and they feel like they’re too young or they’re too old, or they’re not smart enough, or they, they’re too overwhelmed with everything, or in our society now, too anxious of, there is a deeper intelligence and an infinite love. That can handle anything at any moment. And, and for me, it’s been the ultimate training of my life to learn how to listen to it. Um, and one of the coolest moments of my life, um, there’s was, you know, I, I do it in writing. I have, I’m a writer, so I have to see it and I have to write it, whatever. Um, but after a while, I think I created enough of a real relationship that I could just hear it. And one of the coolest things that ever happened to me was, um, it was years ago and I, I had led my first women’s retreat. I’d never led a retreat before and it was years ago. And I’d led my first women’s retreat and nobody left. And nobody hated me and nobody like wanted all their money back and, and therapy on top of it of, you know of, so it was after the retreat and I was flying down the mountain, I was driving down this, the hills of this mountain.

I had the radio turned up. It’s like I’m a retreat facilitator. Oh my god. You know? And I was so excited and I was. I heard an inner voice out of nowhere that just said, oh honey, slow down. Oh honey, slow down. And I burst into tears. And the reason I burst into tears was because it was a kind voice that said, oh honey, slow down.

It wasn’t a voice that said, slow down, you idiot. What’s wrong with you? ’cause that’s what I would’ve heard. That’s always what I would’ve heard. And so it made me realize, oh my God, I’ve been integrating this voice. And on a practical level, it serves you immensely because, um, I was doing an interview some years ago on a b, c news or, you know, on TV or whatever.

I was scared outta my mind. I was really excited, but I was scared and, and I’m, I’m on there. And then my stupid critical voice starts talking to me while I am talking. You know, like while I’m, whatever I’m hearing it like, oh, you’re not doing well. It’s, you know, you know they’re not gonna like you or whatever. I just stopped it in its tracks. I just said, no, not now, honey. We’re not doing that. We’re gonna give our love. We’re gonna show up. And it was amazing. I was able to just truly let that flow of information, that flow of gifts. So I want everybody to be able to access their gifts, their genius, their creativity, their intelligence, especially now, right in the world we live in, that needs more love, not less. Uh, every time you are kind to yourself, a politician grows wings, Or just maybe, who knows? I’m not touching that. I’m not touching that of, um, every time you’re kinder to yourself. it’s an act of incredible invincible power that is allowing something deeper to happen. You are, you are returning to who you are and you know, everybody’s always looking for their life purpose and their life purpose. If you can’t find a life purpose, I’ll give you one. And that is just to the love inside you. Be kinder to you. Be, make the rest of your life being a commitment to, I have, I have been in entrusted being a steward of this one being this, this person called Tamma, right? Of I need to learn how to love her.

I need to learn how to be with her. I need to learn how to reassure her and how to, and how to have faith. Right? So to me, I think it’s one of the best life purposes you’ll ever have is, um, being more gracious with yourself because it changes everything.

Tami Simon: Tama, I’m curious what you make of an experience I’m about to share in broad stroke terms. And if you’ve ever had an experience like this in your life where you felt you were definitely listening to higher guidance, you could say your inner teacher and everything in you resonated with, yes, this is it, this is it, this is it.

You walked all the way down to the end of the road and then you saw the dead end side. It didn’t, it didn’t work, but you were listening the whole time and feeling it, but it was off.

Tama Kieves: Yes.

Tami Simon: One of the sections in learning to trust yourself has this notion that it’s almost like we can be a GPS that recalculates like recalculating.

And that’s what happened in my case. I was like, oh, you’re gonna have to recalculate and it’s okay. But it also left me with a questioning, like maybe, I don’t know, like these times when I think this is really right now, I’m like, God, I don’t know. Maybe, maybe not.

Tama Kieves: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. First of all, I would have infinite compassion for that. The first thing I would do to anybody who’s ever gone through an experience like that, before I even figured it out, what it meant, what I should do, heartbreaking, right? It’s just so, it’s heartbreaking. And to the, to the being that believed and walked down and was gonna do it, you know, of first I would just offer a lot of compassion.

But I, I will say, first of all, I, I do believe in the GPS If GPS can reroute us, so can the universe, right? Of, and GPS never goes, you dumb moron. Why did you turn right? I thought I told you left right? It never does that. Right. Um, it does sound a little snarky sometimes, like recalculating root of, um, but, uh, the main thing I would say, the main thing I will say, to answer your question, so again, I, I’ve taught a course in Merkels for decades and that’s, that’s the source of a lot of my wisdom or a lot of my training or a lot of my whatever. So. The course in Miracles for me has helped a lot because there’s one of the lessons that says, I do not perceive my own best interests. I do not perceive my own best interests. Right? And so what that means is, um, that sometimes something’s happening and we don’t realize the way that it is good or what it’s for, or that, again, we live in a culture that is so, material that is so appearance oriented.

If I do these steps, I’ll have a bestseller. If I do these steps, I’ll me, I’ll, I’ll be thin and everybody will love me if blah, blah, blah. I don’t think a spiritual journey is about that. I wish it was There’s times where I wish it was, I could just follow some formula and it would work right of, but I really think it’s about me growing and healing.

So sometimes the devastating

Tami Simon: Yes.

Part of your book, trusting Yourself, that moved me the most. You might find this surprising Tama. It’s the writing that you did about your mom and your dad and your journey with both of them. And I wanna talk about that because I think sometimes when people think, God, you know, I, I’d trust myself more if I was raised with a mother and father who created a very loving, holding space for me where I felt safe and I knew I belonged.

And I developed trust at a young age. And you, uh, dispel such notions that it’s possible to actually. As we grow, provide that holding space for ourselves actually such that we can then offer it to our parents. And you tell a very moving story, both about your time with your father and then your time with your mother.

That occurred before they died. And I found these healing stories. They just, uh, I mean I wept when I read both of them. I really loved them. And I wonder if you can share them both with us, especially for all of those people listening who had, you know, difficult childhoods.

Tama Kieves: Yeah. Yeah. Um, I, I, I love that my parents are yet serving, are yet serving humanity of um, you know, part of my own healing. Because I certainly went down that train of how come I didn’t get a good mother? You know? How come I didn’t get that nurturing mother? Like, I would always be jealous, you know, like I’d have a student that goes, oh, my mother so gets me my mother.

Oh, she bought this thing. ’cause she knew that one day I, on a Wednesday, I looked at this one thing and she remembered it and Lala and I’d like wanna scream like what your mother paid attention to you, you know, of. Um, but one of the things I will say, because I so wanted more than anything else in this lifetime to be heard, to be seen, to be cared about, to be valued, right?

To, to be seen. I think it gave me my life’s calling because one of the things that I do have as a gift is on my watch. Everyone will be seen. You know, like I know that my students would probably say that in workshops or classes or whatever, that I’m always beholding people. I’m always listening. I deeply listen to people.

And I think it came, that gift came from such a hunger, from such a desperate need to have that myself. So now I give it to others. And again, it’s a Course in Miracles principle. Um, and it’s not, it’s not only the course in miracles, but um, that the more that we give, right, the more that we give in life, our smallness disappears.

So I could spend the rest of my life, and I spent a lot of my life. So I know this, I researched this of, of, I could spend a lot of my life waiting for people to give to me. Why don’t they support me? Why don’t they get me? Who’s gonna listen? Who’s gonna love me? I’ve spent the rest of my life now deciding I’m going to be the person who gives, I’m going to be the larger presence in the room.

Not because I’m better, not because it’s moral, not because I’m trying to prove something, but because I end up being happier when I let that love come through me. I end up being happier. So the story I think you’re talking about with my dad was just a, an amazing, amazing experience. I spent years in therapy going, why won’t he?

He doesn’t care about me, he doesn’t ask questions about me, he’s not interested in my life. And, um, and I, you know, we’d always sit on the front I’d, I live in Denver and I’d go home to New York and, uh, we’d visit on the front porch and he’d always be talking about delta flies over here twice a day. And American Airlines goes over here.

And I’d think, are you kidding me? I’ve just flown 2000 miles away. And this is what you’re gonna talk about. Don’t you wanna know what’s your deepest, meaningful moment in your life right now? Precious daughter doesn’t, doesn’t that enter your mind? So I’d be, I’d be so frustrated always right. One year I went home and I decided, I’m done asking him to be different. I’m gonna be different. And I’m done asking him to change. I’m just gonna be with him. I’m just gonna be present and I’m gonna be the presence of love for him. Right. Instead of judging him. And uh, and so it was really amazing ’cause we sat on the porch and he was doing the thing about the airlines or whatever. And I, and I just said, really, I’m curious, does Southwest ever fly over here? Does, you know, does Southwest come? I love the blue and the red on their tails, you know? Um, and he’s like, oh no, I haven’t seen that one. And, you know, and then we talk about something else. And out of nowhere he put his arm around me. Right. And it was just this amazing moment because I think he felt not judged right? And it wasn’t that he then had an Oprah moment with me and asked me my deepest whatever. I also think that my father couldn’t ask me things. He was afraid of intimacy. I also think he judged the heck out of my life. I was not doing what he wanted.

I had left law. I wasn’t married. I was, I was living in crazy places like Denver, you know, of. Um, and so, like, for him not asking was almost his truce, you know? But, but my kindness of just being present and being in his world helped him enter my world. And I’ll tell you what, I felt better about myself as a human being. Um, and so I, I had a, a moment like that even more. Um, as you said, with my mother, it’s probably the one of the. Most amazing things I’ve ever done in my life. Um, not conscious, not like I planned this, but, uh, again, I was visiting New York. Um, I was teaching out there and my mother lived upstate. My brother lived upstate.

And, um, I wanted to see them ’cause I was in New York, right? And so nobody would come to the city to see me, right? So my, my brother had a very important pressing thing. He had to go to the mall or something like that, like, just something of, um, my mother wouldn’t take a train into the city, even though she’d take a train into the city for other things, but not her daughter visiting.

Um, and so I started forming this grievance in my mind. Like, see, I’m just insignificant to my family. They won’t even, like, nobody even cares about me. They’re not even gonna take a train to see me. And, uh, thank God, because of course in miracles, you know, for me, I knew that was a grievance and it was getting me upset.

And I just thought, okay, what’s another way to see this? What’s another way to see this? Right? Um, and all of a sudden I realized. I don’t have to be a victim, they won’t come to see me. I will go to see them. Right? And like, and it was heroic seriously because it was, uh, I had to take like a, a bus and a train and a cab and a, and then I had to take it all the way back.

And then I had to go to the airport after. It was like a crazy thing to do, but I just got so much energy in me and I thought, I’m gonna do it. I wanna see them. And I decided I wanted my mother to feel special. I just wanted to, I wanted her to feel loved. ’cause I knew she’d never gotten much love. And yes, I had my stuff against her about wanting, wanting her to love me or whatever.

But, um, we were in her, uh, little apartment and, and, uh, she had a little shopping problem shopped all the time with catalogs and whatever. And her closets were just burgeoning. Uh, and. I also am not some neat freak and have issues organizing, but like out of nowhere I just had this moment of feeling wanna help her instead of judging her.

’cause I was judging her like, oh, look at this and she’s materialistic and whatever. And I decided to help her clean her closet. And at first she resisted me ’cause she was like, you know, oh no way, no way. I don’t want that. Right? I just said, mom, we’re gonna do this really lovingly. I will not judge you for anything you have full say.

I will just be here. I’m just curious if you really need the 25 green shirts. I’m just cur. If you do, that’s fine. But, uh, maybe 24 would be okay. I mean, like, so I just started playing with her and teasing her we started laughing and throwing away like big moo she didn’t need or God knows what or, and it was this like holy, insane moment.

’cause I was doing for her what she never did for me. was being a parent to her in a way that she had never been to me. I was being a parent to her in a way that I hope to God I will parent myself for the rest of my life. That I wanna learn how to be that loving and giving and patient and nonjudgmental. And it, I felt like I was high. I felt like I was on God knows what Kundalini energy of God knows what of, and it was just something that just happened. And then I took the trains back home and, you know, there was somebody on the new, because it’s New York. Somebody was singing New York, New York, you know, so we’re all singing on the train.

It was like, was an amazing experience of going beyond my story of what I needed from her and what I needed from them. And deciding who do I wanna be in this life? This is my life. I wanna be this light. I wanna be this love. I wanna give to people what I want, what I need, because I learn how, because it grows me.

I, I once heard a, an inner voice. I was. Angry of like, why do I have to be the loving one? They were mean to me. Why do I have to be the person who grows? Why can’t they grow? And I, I heard an inner voice that said, whoever is

stronger in the lifetime will be the one who loves. And I realized, you know what? I’ve had advantages my parents didn’t have. I went to therapy. I went to God knows what, I went to healers. I went to Ave. I, you know, I’ve, I’ve done, I’ve studied course. I had access to Oprah, tv, whatever I like, I had things they never had, right?

And I thought for whatever reason, my soul came in strong this time. I don’t know why. I don’t know how, I don’t always feel it. just thought, I’m gonna be the one who loves. So it was, it was an amazing, and, and, and I did not know, but she, um, she was gonna have a car accident, you know, um, like maybe six months, a year later after that and died.

So, I’m so grateful. I’m so grateful that I won’t beyond my story to do that.

Tami Simon: Tam. I think part of what moves me about both of these stories, the one with your dad and your mom, is that they’re so within reach of all of us in our own way with relationships in our lives. It’s not necessarily like, you know, writing a book and getting it published or like, it’s not, it’s, it’s, it’s this immediate possible in some relationship, being the one who loves deciding to hold the space for the other perfect.

Tama Kieves: And it changes everything. And if somebody’s listening, going, oh my God, now I feel even more threatened. Oh my God, now this is horrible. Please keep in mind there is a time and place I didn’t choose that. I didn’t come in saying, no matter what, I’m gonna love them. Uh, they, they can be hateful and I’m gonna love them.

Um, I, it was not an act of force. It was an act of receiving. I was ready. So I had years of being in pain. I had years of wishing it was otherwise right. And, and by the way. Just ’cause I had that moment didn’t mean I didn’t go right back to judging her at other times. I wanna tell you, oh, I didn’t and it was gone forever.

No, it’s a life practice. All of these things we’re talking about, they are life practices. We have this conditioning, like this conditioning of that tired mind, that autopilot, right? That just goes back into our old stories. And it is this life practice to trust ourselves, to trust something higher, to trust that love. every time we do, there’s an experience that’s in your bones and your cells. Now I know what it felt like to be that person. And again, it wasn’t for her. The other thing that was amazing, my mother at one point said, and my mother didn’t say stuff like this, but my mother at one point said, you have been the most loving person to me. Which was incredible. And there were days where I thought, well, why couldn’t you love me? But that, that, I stopped that of. Um, but it was like, that’s who I wanna be in this lifetime. That’s part of what I wanna be in this lifetime. I wanna be the person who, um, shows up with the best of what I can be. And for all of us, that shows up in different ways, right?

And I believe that there are people out there who have so many gifts and so much talent, and they’re thinking, oh, well, who’s gonna want it? Who needs it? Whatever. And it’s like, oh God, I hope this is speaking to trusting that genuine impulse in you. Because what happens is if you follow that impulse to be more loving, to be kinder, to listen to your gifts, to follow your desire, it makes you stronger. It makes you stronger. You will never lose your gains. Things may happen that, you know, set us back again, but every gain I’ve ever had, it lives with me and I get to decide what my reality is, is, you know, am I the person I am when I’m inspired or am I the person when I’m tired? Right. You know, it’s like I get to choose my identity and which one I’m serving.

So I’m hoping people are listening and gonna follow that love.

Tami Simon: Let me make sure that I picked up on something you just put down, which is

Tama Kieves: You do it,

Tami Simon: okay. Which is when we, because this is something you talk about in trusting yourself, learning to trust yourself, is if we follow the breadcrumbs of our desires, our longings, our sense of our genuine inspirations, that that moves us deeper into realizing our possibilities are, and that you’re saying by following those breadcrumbs, ’cause I have some breadcrumbs, they’re very impractical.

The things that I am finding myself drawn to, uh, today in my sixties or, you know, and I’m like, really? You’re gonna do what? Whatcha you gonna spend your time doing? But it’s, if doing that in and of itself will make me stronger, that’s gonna make me stronger and more able to be this loving presence for others, which I want.

Tama Kieves: yes, yes, yes, yes. You know, and it, and it goes so against our ordinary thought, like, exactly like what you just said. You’re going to do what? like, that’s crazy. Uh, with a world falling apart, you’re gonna go do X, you know, like. But you know how I kept saying before that it’s not the form of our lives, that it’s not the, it’s not what it looks like.

It’s where it’s coming from, right? And it’s, it’s the motivation and it’s like we don’t know why we’re drawn to do something. It may not be for the thing itself, it might be, but uh, just as an example, um, I know that if I write whether or not I publish or do anything with it, but if I’m, if I write, if I, if I answer that calling in me, I tend to be a nicer person. So I, I have friends that like, if I’m being crazy and just on something, I have friends that will say, H Honey, are you journaling? At least you know, which is a nice code way for, you’re a crazy person

Tami Simon: Right.

Tama Kieves: Um, you know, but I’m more, I am naturally more generous. When I’m getting what I need, what the watering I need, the nurturing, I need, the soul food I need.

Right. And what people don’t really realize about breadcrumbs, right, is that first of all, a breadcrumb of like something that you’re drawn to. It’s, I always say chasing the heat, following the energy, right? It may not make sense to your linear mind, and that’s the point. we are being invited into what we don’t know, right?

So the mind that thinks it knows is going well, that’s not gonna work. And that’s really stupid and dah, dah, dah da. And people don’t make money doing that. So the mind that thinks its knows is judging, but the breadcrumb is coming from the realm leading you into what you don’t even know about yourself and guiding you to other talents and abilities. And the other thing I always tell people is that one thing leads to another, leads to another, leads to another in ways that you can’t expect. So I, I know when I first left law, the very first thing I felt guided to do, horrified me. ’cause I knew I wanted to write, but write what you know, like I do, you do write fiction, do you write essays?

Do you write? And I kept secretly wanting to write poetry and I was like, oh God, could you, could you pick something less lucrative? Really? Could you, could you try for something more impractical if you tried? Um, and I thought, I don’t even read those books. Like, oh my God. Um. But I finally started doing it because it was the only thing that kept talking to me. And what ended up happening was poetry started leading to writing these poetic essays about career transition. ’cause that’s what I was going through. And I was scared outta my mind. And it was reading every self-help book on the planet. And it wasn’t answering me. It was like Seven Steps to Your New Life, you know, and of, and so I was writing these poetic essays about being really real and I realized, oh, I think I’m writing a book. And so I started writing my very first book. And then people, uh, then I realized I wanna be around other people, you know, like I’m scared outta my mind. I wanna be around other creative people or people who are on a spiritual journey. And so I started a little support group, and then people said, you know, you’re really good at this.

You should consider teaching, you should consider guiding people. So. started teaching, I started teaching at a little adult class, you know, to, to begin with. And I just started teaching, you know, and, and people started really loving it. And then people started asking me, Hey, would you ever work with me individually?

Would you ever help me find my dream or my calling, or whatever? And, um, this was back in the days where coaching wasn’t a career yet. Um, and I’m, you know, a former lawyer. So thinking, wait, is that therapy? Is that legal if I work one-on-one with person, you know, and then I think, well, they have money and I don’t, so I think it’s legal, you know, like I’m, I’m going for it. Um, so I started doing coaching before coaching even became a career. Uh, then people asked me to, would you ever take us away to the mountains and lead a retreat? So I started doing retreat. Literally one thing led to another, led to another, led to another in a billion years. Now I’m on stages in different, all over different things.

And just in a billion years, this is not where I knew it would go on some level, but like. never ended up becoming a poet per se, you know, but like one thing led to another, led to another. Sometimes we don’t know why we’re attracted to something. Right. Or, or just even, um, I had a friend who just recently had a kitten that came into her life and she just loved this kitten and it was a godsend ’cause she’s in a really, really horrible place.

And um, and the kitten just died recently and it was just tragic. It was really painful. But on another level. It’s made her grieve and cry and get out this junk that’s been inside her for so long about other disappointments and sadnesses. And so that’s just such a good example of we don’t know sometimes why something’s there.

Right? So like the breadcrumb, like I went to get the kitten and what was that for? It died within a few days, right? Like, to me that was a, that was a positive outcome, you know? And so again, from a course of miracles, I’m always gonna look at not what’s happening, but what am I making it mean? What’s really behind it? So that’s, that’s where the

Tami Simon: Okay. I have two final questions for you, Tamma. One is that you described how this is an ongoing practice. It’s not like there’s some destination where you’re 100% trusting 24 7 period. No. You, there’s moments where you’re like, oh, I gotta, are you journaling? Your friends ask you, you go back, you return great return.

Return at the same time there is a trajectory that you’re on with this practice. Would you say that you return. To listening to the inner teacher quicker. Would you say you spend more time in that intelligent energy, like that’s, it’s a directional thing, or how would you describe it?

Tama Kieves: That is so thank you. That is so good. Um, uh, yes. Uh, so I do not want to mislead people and think, oh, you never really get anywhere. You just do this forever. And nothing really changes. That’s not, I, I’m not that motivated. I’m just not that motivated of, um. I will just speak for myself and, and for clients that I’ve worked with of it gets infinitely better, infinitely better.

Because even when I’m crazy or doubting or scared, I now know how this works. I have lived it, I have been so scared and it worked and there was a trajectory and you know, that, that, uh, you know, I keep talking about my first book and taking 12 years or whatever. I had Miracle After Miracle happen with that.

I, I, I got the guidance to self-publish that initially, which was terrifying to me. That was a breadcrumb I didn’t want. ’cause it’s like, oh, great, put your own money into something. And I didn’t know anything about distribution or publishing or anything. And then it literally got discovered by somebody, you know, I’ve called her my fairy godmother, where she literally found the book on Amazon and said it was the best book she’d ever read on finding your calling and whatever.

And she got it to the publishing house of my dreams. Um, and not only that, they, they not only bought the book, they didn’t edit it, they didn’t change the title, nothing. And I always, I always. Go back to the, my, my mind over and over like a touchstone, because it reminds me that if I’d followed a conventional path, I would’ve never gotten where I’ve gotten. But, but you can’t plan an inspired life, right? And so, so even when something’s going wrong, now I go back to that story in my own soul of remembering how many doubts I had, how many fears I had, and my critical voice could go well. Yeah, that was great. You had a fluke then. But what about now? You know, I mean, like, it’ll, it’ll do that of, but I know, I know the reality of it.

It just gets so much easier and you just have so much more evidence of it and you, you are training your mind. So here’s the thing. When you have a different belief, mind will find different evidence. When you have a different belief in, you know, when I have a belief that things are working out for me, that I am led by an amazing universe.

I am looking for the evidence of that, and that’s what I’m seeing when I have a belief that nothing’s gonna work, it’s never gonna go right, blah, blah, blah. That’s what I’m looking and seeing. And so me, it just, it’s a training of focus. And it’s the same thing, like if you do yoga, you know, uh, I’m, I’m not a good yoga person, you know, like of, but I got stronger even so I still can’t do it like the teacher does it.

I’m never gonna look that gorgeous and graceful, but I’m stronger than I ever was and I’m not afraid anymore. so it’s the same thing with this, like I have so much evidence of it now working that it takes you to a different level. So when I say that we keep going backwards and doubting, I don’t think we’re going backwards.

I do wanna make that distinction. I don’t think that we’re ever going backwards. We’re just cleaning up another doubt. We’re just refining it like, oh look, honey, you still have some residue here. Let’s explore that. We love you so much, we want you so clear. We’re gonna look at that one belief again. Not ’cause you’re going backwards, but because you’re strong enough now to choose differently. And so I’m, I’m gonna forever be growing and I think the doubts are gonna come up in me because I’m going to edges I’ve never gone to before. I’m trying, I’m, you know, I’m being more loving than I’ve tried before. I’m, I’m being more trusting than I’ve ever, ever tried. I’m doing bigger things in my life than I’ve ever done before, so my fears are gonna come up, but that’s a good thing.

The whole purpose is for them to come up so that I can choose again, so that I can say, yes, they are here and I will love them with all my heart, and I’ll love me with all my heart, and I’ll still hold my own hand and I’ll still go forward with the next

Tami Simon: I think one thing I just want to clarify, I wanna make sure I understand what you mean by stronger. Like if you were, say, Tammy, this is what I mean, like I’ve gotten stronger through this work and

Tama Kieves: Yeah.

Tami Simon: that, you know, fill in the strength,

Tama Kieves: Great, great, great. Que great question. Um, uh, like, just even, even, uh, like, just a simple thing might be like, uh, let’s say I am. Talking to you. I’m

Tami Simon: imagine.

Tama Kieves: Simon. You know, believe me, before I got on here, I was like, oh my God, I’m talking to Tammy Simon, right? Of, and my old self would’ve been, oh my God, I’m gonna, I, she won’t let, this won’t go that.

Well, I’ll forget what I’m supposed to say. Uh, I, I would have all that kind of stuff come up. It still comes up here and there, but the strength is I have, um. It’s like a reservoir or res, an ease or resilience because it’s been built up. Like those thoughts don’t take me down that groove in the same way and also have a different focus.

Like, I wanna be helpful, I wanna be loving, I wanna be present. I want it not to be about me. Right. I wanna be really present. Right. So because I’ve trained enough with that, it’s easier. I don’t have to fight the fear as much. Right. It’s just, it’s more just, again, it’s like a muscle that you’ve used now.

And so, um. the other thing of stronger is that I really have changed my identity. I really have, like, I I, I did not start off thinking, oh, I wanna be the most loving person in the room. That was not my

Tami Simon: Okay.

Tama Kieves: My goal was I wanna get what I want. know, like I wanna get everything I want of, I just happened to realize that, oh, being the most loving person helps me get what I want in things, ways I don’t even realize.

So, so the strength is, um, I think the other strength, and I’m so glad you asked this ’cause it’s good for me to remember it. I be, for me personally, I believe in a God and a love and a universe like I’ve never believed before. I, I have such a gratitude for this force and this love that is with me constantly.

Even when I forget, even when I’m blocked to it, um, I see so much love and I’m so, so grateful, and I did not know that there could be this love. And so of what motivated me to write this book actually was I heard a voice that said, I need you to be the beloved. I need you to

Tami Simon: Well, it’s,

Tama Kieves: need you

Tami Simon: it’s so interesting Tama, that that’s where. You’re going here. ’cause this was my final question for you, and it’s from your chapter called Siding with Your Undiluted Light. So first of all, that was my favorite chapter title, siding with Your Undiluted Light. And I was like, just write that down and put it someplace, Danny.

And here’s the quote. Neuroscientists have shown that standing in a certain pose, hands on your hips and your arms bent, gives us more confidence in stamina, I think, of being the beloved as an introversion of this pose. And I thought, well, this will be the last question I ask Tamma, what does it mean to be in the pose for you of being the beloved?

Tama Kieves: It means, it means for me, like walking into every situation, being that beloved and my, my beloved comes from the universe. It comes from knowing. I am cared about, I am safe, I am loved. And that because I’m in that pose of knowing that or or beginning to trust that I want to give it. I want you to know that you are the beloved. I want every person to know that there is an infinite intelligence in you and it may speak to you differently and it may, it may not have the same words or the same mechanisms or the same ways, but it is learning a language. To that, to that in intelligence, that’s yours and yours alone. That we’re, that I’m walking this planet with this infinite being, you know, and that finally just taking in what if I really am loved?

And what if I don’t have to keep preventing danger and, and, you know, or attacking myself or needing things to be this way, in that way. What if instead, because I’m in that pose of I am the beloved. I’m looking for it, I’m seeing it, I’m noticing it, I’m noticing every aspect of it. So if I’m in an interview or something, it’s like, I’ll notice what’s going right.

Or even if it wasn’t going right, it’s like, how privileged is it to be able to do this at all? Right. Or, or, I just gave one of the biggest speaking engagements I gave, uh, in my life, um, last week and I was. Really scared of, but um, but part of me just kept saying like, Tam, the fact that you get on that stage, no matter what happens in this lifetime, the fact that you get up there if you mumble, I don’t care if you mumble the fact that you are walking onto that stage.

That is the achievement to me. If you don’t walk on that stage and you don’t beat yourself up, that’s the achievement to me. Like that’s, for me, the beloved is like, I wanna be on my side. I wanna be on my side in everything, and giving myself that patience and that nurturing. Again, because I wanna use the gifts I have, because I think I am one infinite channel of these possibilities that can affect people, who can affect people, who can affect people.

Um, so I think we’re all the beloved and it’s just, it’s, it’s waiting for us to choose it. It’s waiting for us to proclaim it. And initially it may feel fake, you know, like I, I, I, you know, I mentioned those, that best tool thing, um, earlier about a tool that I use. When I first started doing that, it felt fake to me.

It felt like, oh, you are so pathetic now that you’re gonna have to write to loving voices in your head. Oh my god, you know of. But I decided what I, I’m a very practical girl when it comes down to it. I have that logic in me and I thought, when I don’t believe this, I curl up on the couch and I’m freaked out and nothing is working right.

When I allow myself to believe this, even if it’s not true. Even if it wasn’t true, I’m a better person because of it. I get out there and do things I wouldn’t have done because of it. So I know, but by their free shall know them. And I also just know, I don’t even care if I come to the other side and realize, wow, that was just not even true at all.

I don’t care. I had a better life because of it. So I’m gonna choose in my lifetime to be the beloved and to allow good things to come because I also believe in frequency that the more loving I am to myself and the more I show up and the more I can be there, um, I think it changes the frequency. I think that there’s a different energy.

You attract better people. You’re in the zone, you’re more creative, you’re more alive, you’re laughing more. Um, and for me, that’s, that’s part of what I want in this life and I want other people to have that. I want, I wanna read other people’s books. I wanna see how they love their parents. I wanna see what house they built or what book, what book they read.

I mean, just like, I think we all have so much love and potential in us and it’s just choosing it.

Tami Simon: Tam’s, author of the beautiful book, learning to Trust Yourself, Tam to Tam. You’ve lifted all of us up. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you Tam. Thanks friends.