{"id":19356,"date":"2022-01-10T14:34:59","date_gmt":"2022-01-10T21:34:59","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?post_type=transcript&p=19356"},"modified":"2022-01-10T14:34:59","modified_gmt":"2022-01-10T21:34:59","slug":"finding-meaning-in-our-grief","status":"publish","type":"transcript","link":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/finding-meaning-in-our-grief\/","title":{"rendered":"Finding Meaning in Our Grief"},"content":{"rendered":"
\"image_print\"Print Transcript<\/span><\/a><\/div>

Tami Simon: <\/b>Welcome to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>, produced by Sounds True. My name\u2019s Tami Simon. I\u2019m the founder of Sounds True, and I\u2019d love to take a moment to introduce you to the new Sounds True Foundation. The Sounds True Foundation is dedicated to creating a wiser and kinder world by making transformational education widely available. We want everyone to have access to transformational tools such as mindfulness, emotional awareness, and self-compassion, regardless of financial, social or physical challenges. The Sounds True Foundation is a non-profit dedicated to providing these transformational tools to communities in need, including at-risk youth, prisoners, veterans, and those in developing countries. If you\u2019d like to learn more or feel inspired to become a supporter, please visit SoundsTrueFoundation.org.<\/span><\/p>\n

You\u2019re listening to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>. Today my guest is David Kessler. David Kessler is the world\u2019s foremost expert on grief and loss. His experience with thousands of people on the edge of life and death has taught him secrets to living a happy and fulfilled life, even after life\u2019s tragedies. David is the founder of Grief.com, which has over 5 million visits yearly from people in 167 countries. He\u2019s the author of six books, including the new, bestselling book <\/span>Finding Meaning: The Sixth Stage of Grief<\/span><\/i>. He\u2019s also coauthored two books with Elisabeth K\u00fcbler-Ross, including a book on grief and grieving, which updated her five stages for grief.<\/span><\/p>\n

David comes at this conversation of understanding grief, loss and finding meaning, not just as an expert who\u2019s worked with other people\u2019s journey through grief, but as someone who has deeply experienced his own loss. [He] shares about it and the meaning-making process he went through and ultimately how making meaning has so much to do with grieving fully and living fully, and having and maintaining an ongoing, evolving relationship with those who have died. Here\u2019s my illuminating conversation with David Kessler.<\/span><\/p>\n

I\u2019m absolutely thrilled, David to have this chance to talk to you. Thank you so much for making the time and space for this. Thank you.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

David Kessler: <\/b>I\u2019m so glad to be with you today\u2014and everyone. Very excited to be here.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>In learning about you and your work, one of the things I learned is that you co-wrote two previous books with Elisabeth K\u00fcbler-Ross, the great psychiatrist known for her five stages of the dying process. I wanted to start and understand how you and Elisabeth K\u00fcbler-Ross first got connected.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DK: <\/b>Sure. I started out\u2014I had a mother who died when I was a child. She died when I was 13 in a hospital. At the same time she was dying, the hotel where we were, there was a shooting across the street at the hotel. It turned out to be one of the first mass shootings in the US. So, obviously, I was interested in death and dying, and when I was in community college at Sacramento City College, everyone was so excited about these two psychology classes, and the really popular one was Human Sexuality, and the second one was Death and Dying. I\u2019m like, \u201cThat\u2019s the one I want to go to.\u201d So, obviously, I studied Elisabeth K\u00fcbler-Ross, as everyone else did.<\/span><\/p>\n

Years later, after I had worked in this field for a number of years, there was an international conference in Egypt on death and dying, and the keynote speaker was Elisabeth K\u00fcbler-Ross. She unfortunately had to cancel because it\u2019s when she had her stroke. She was the major speaker. I was wallpaper. I talked to the person afterwards who was putting on the event and said, \u201cI\u2019ve got to talk to her, her family, and I don\u2019t know how she is. It\u2019s an awkward call to make. I don\u2019t know. How do I call her son?\u201d It spoke to [how] I don\u2019t know how to engage in illness and all that. I said, \u201cWell, I\u2019ll call and see how she\u2019s doing,\u201d and so she gave me the number. I called. Her son said, \u201cOh, here\u2019s her number. Call her. She\u2019s doing better.\u201d I called her, and she was lovely on the phone. She asked me how Egypt was. We talked. Then, interestingly enough, at the end of that call, I said, in my way, \u201cWell, I hope someday, somehow we get to meet each other,\u201d and she said, \u201cHow about Tuesday?\u201d That was my first glimpse of this is a woman who doesn\u2019t [just say], \u201cMaybe we\u2019ll get connected.\u201d She makes things happen.<\/span><\/p>\n

I went to her house on a Tuesday\u2014and she\u2019s just a fascinating woman. She was the kind of person that\u2014her honesty, you either admired it, or it pissed you off. I remember she said to me, when I walked in, she goes, \u201cLet me smell you.\u201d I thought, \u201cOh, my gosh, do I have a cologne on? What\u2019s wrong?\u201d She said, \u201cI just want to smell if you\u2019re a phony baloney or you\u2019re real.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Oh, I love it. I love it.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DK: <\/b>That was like, \u201cOK, I\u2019m going on a ride here. I\u2019m going on a ride.\u201d We became good friends. Going back to your first comment about her stages of dying, she helped me with my first book. She couldn\u2019t keep her hands off of it. She made sure I was dotting my <\/span>i<\/span><\/i>\u2019s and doing it right and covering everything. We had this discussion for a long time about learning about life from death, and that became our book <\/span>Life Lessons<\/span><\/i>. Then we would also have this ongoing conversation about how people were adapting her stages of dying for stages of grief, and they actually weren\u2019t adapting them well. I always said, \u201cYou should write something. You should change it. You should put your voice out there at some point.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Finally, one day, I think eight or nine years later, she called me, and she said, \u201cOK, let\u2019s write about it.\u201d So, we formally adapted her stages of dying for stages of grief, and that became our book on grief and grieving. Literally, on page one, we say, \u201cThey\u2019re not linear. You don\u2019t have to go through them. There is no one model of grief. Grief is an organic process. There\u2019s no map for grief.\u201d It turned out to be her last book\u2014and, literally, we finished it a week before she died.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Wow. David, I have to tell you, I\u2019m sort of jumping out of my skin, believe it or not, because there\u2019s so much I want to cover with you. But I want to clarify right here at the beginning something, because I\u2019ve heard from people a criticism of Elisabeth K\u00fcbler-Ross\u2019s work. When you say her name, often this criticism comes up immediately, and people say, \u201cOh, those were based on interviews with terminally ill people. Don\u2019t apply it to the grieving process. That\u2019s an error.\u201d Can you address that right here out of the gate?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DK: <\/b>Sure, absolutely. First of all, she\u2019s very clear. These were observations of dying, of people who were dying. What I think was so profound about her work is Elisabeth didn\u2019t invent something. It\u2019s like she went outside and said, \u201cI notice the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. I notice this is what dying people go through.\u201d She says in her first book, <\/span>On Death and Dying<\/span><\/i>: \u201cThis is also what people in grief often experience,\u201d and she\u2019s so clear. If you read the original book, there\u2019s actually more than five stages, and she got the idea of the stages and how we go through them archetypally from Anna Freud. It\u2019s really interesting to just notice, whether you like the model or don\u2019t like the model. We go through the \u201cI can\u2019t believe this is happening.\u201d We get angry. We go, \u201cWhat if?\u201d We get sad. I mean, they do naturally reoccur.<\/span><\/p>\n

But, a couple of things. [\u2026] It was hard for [Elisabeth] to have her work. All of her books, I think (how many books\u2014in the 20s, maybe 30s, of books, lectures), they kept getting reduced to five words. She said to folks, \u201cThere\u2019s more to death and dying than these five words.\u201d So when people say, \u201cOh, she denied her own work,\u201d it\u2019s like, I would sit with her, and here\u2019s what would happen. A clinician would come in, and the clinician would say, \u201cI want to tell you about this case,\u201d and they would tell her about the case. We\u2019d sit through 20 minutes of background. Then the clinician would say to Elisabeth, \u201cWhat stage are they in?\u201d Elisabeth would go, \u201cForget the stages. Just meet them where they are.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Now as you mentioned, there\u2019s been criticisms. We tried to address that in, like I said, page one of the book. We say all of those criticisms on page one. Elisabeth found it ridiculous that people thought there\u2019s one model for grief. She found that concept ridiculous, that people thought she was putting out the one and only model. The truth is, as you know, the media picked up the five stages early on in <\/span>Life<\/span><\/i> magazine and other places, and it\u2019s easy to talk about the five easy steps, the five this\u2014<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Sure.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DK: <\/b>I think we know grief can\u2019t be reduced to five easy anything. So I think that\u2019s important, and I\u2019m glad you went back and noted that. Look, Yale and other places have done a lot of studies. They don\u2019t think it\u2019s denial. They think it\u2019s disbelief. I look at that, and I go, \u201cTomatoes, tom-ah-toes.\u201d It\u2019s just grief denial. [\u2026] Denial, she certainly never meant\u2014and if anyone reads the books, they see this\u2014she never meant there\u2019s an actual denial of death. She meant that, \u201cI can\u2019t believe this. I can\u2019t believe this is happening.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now I wanted to start with this conversation in a foundational kind of way, because what I really want to go deeply into is your book on finding meaning, the subtitle of which is <\/span>The Sixth Stage of Grief.<\/span><\/i> Tell me how you came to see that meaning was something that we needed to address directly, head-on, beyond the five stages that the media had been holding up as important to the grieving process.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DK: <\/b>Sure. So, to connect the dots on that, acceptance, over the years, had a finality to it that Elisabeth and I never intended. There\u2019s no end to grieving. When people say to me, \u201cHow long will my wife grieve, my spouse, my partner, my parent, my sibling?\u201d\u2014whoever it may be\u2014when they say, \u201cHow long will they grieve?\u201d I always say, \u201cHow long will the person be dead?\u201d Because if they\u2019re going to be dead for a long time, you\u2019re going to grieve for a long time, hopefully not always with pain, but more with love. So, this idea of acceptance as the end of grief is nothing we ever believed.<\/span><\/p>\n

I was so curious about meaning and obviously had studied Viktor Frankl\u2019s work. I love that idea of \u201cHow do you find the light in the darkness?\u201d It\u2019s fascinating to me. When many times bereaved parents would hear about meaning, they would say, \u201cYeah, but Viktor Frankl lived, and my child died.\u201d So, I was curious about, how do we put meaning and grief together? I wrote a couple of chapters about it, and as you know, sometimes when you write, you put things aside. You wrote them. You\u2019ll look at them later and see what you think. So, I wrote these chapters. Then, at a certain point, I got a call five years ago out of the blue that my younger son, David, had died. The pain was so intense, I wanted to write a note to every parent I had ever counseled saying, \u201cI\u2019m sorry. I didn\u2019t realize how bad the pain was.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

I canceled all my lectures, everything, and I came home, and I had to do all the things I had told people to do. I wondered if everything I had said would be true. Had I been giving the right advice all these years? I had to go to a counselor, a grief counselor. My grief needed dedicated time. I said my pain was big enough that no one person in my life could handle it. I needed to spread it around, and I needed a grief counselor. I also went to grief groups, and, literally, I had to walk in, took my contacts out, put glasses on, put my cap on, and I had to sit in a grief group with literally my books on a table four feet away. As much as I wanted to be the grief expert, I had to be the father that had buried a child.<\/span><\/p>\n

One day, at this very desk I\u2019m sitting at now, I literally was sitting at home, in pain, wondering what to do. I picked up these couple of chapters on meaning, and I looked at them, and I threw them down, and I went, \u201cYeah, like that\u2019s going to help with this pain.\u201d Then I went back about a week later, and I started reading them. It did not take away the pain, but it gave the pain a cushion, and I became curious. How does meaning relate to grief in a deeper way? I began talking to people who had children who died, spouses who died, about meaning, horrible tragedies. How did they find meaning? How did people find meaning after trauma and abuse and death in all these situations? I began hearing their stories, and I thought, \u201cThis is a book.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

I began writing it, and it was such a powerful experience. Also, I just couldn\u2019t help but take a few moments and, in the beginning, also address some of the misconceptions about K\u00fcbler-Ross\u2019s work, because I was curious. \u201cAm I going to notice going through these stages? Do they still work?\u201d Of course, there would be days, I\u2019m like, \u201cYep, I\u2019m in anger. Yep, I\u2019m in bargaining. There I am.\u201d But as I danced with acceptance, I couldn\u2019t stop there. I needed more, and that was meaning. Someone said, \u201cWell, that\u2019s the sixth stage.\u201d I was so shocked. The K\u00fcbler-Ross family has just been wonderful to me over the years. They gave me permission to add a sixth stage to her iconic stages. So, the book just\u2014literally, when I finished it right here, I burst into tears, and my prayer was, \u201cI hope it helps other people as much as it helped me.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Can you share with me a bit about your own journey of meaning-making with the loss of your 21-year-old son?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DK: <\/b>Sure. There are a few things. Writing the book, for me, was about making meaning. One thing I always want to say to people upfront that I think is confusing, when you see the title <\/span>Finding Meaning<\/span><\/i>, people go, \u201cI\u2019m not there.\u201d I go, \u201cOh, 95% of the book is about excavating the pain to find the meaning.\u201d So it\u2019s not \u201cHere\u2019s the meaning\u201d; it\u2019s how to get there through the pain. But one of the big things I had to learn in meaning-making was that it\u2019s not about the death. There is no meaning in the horrible death or a cancer death or a pandemic death or however people die, or a murder or a tragedy or trauma. Meaning is in us. Meaning is what we do afterwards.<\/span><\/p>\n

There are a number of things that were meaningful for me. One, my son, when he was in kindergarten, they gave out trophies to everyone. He got the trophy for the most likely to become a helper, and I toyed in his young life with whether it was medical school or nursing school, or he was becoming a paramedic. He never got to be that helper. I hope now with this book, he gets to help people throughout the world. That\u2019s part of my meaning. This book is about the death of a child, but also the death of a parent, the death of a spouse, the death of a sibling, the death of our parents. It really helps people in all walks of life, even with trauma. I always say, all grief does not have trauma, but all trauma has grief. So part of the work itself is my meaning, and getting to talk to him today. Today he comes alive with you and this podcast. He gets to be with me. That\u2019s meaningful. People think sometimes about meaning as, \u201cI\u2019m going to start a foundation, or maybe I have to write a book,\u201d but it\u2019s also small meaningful moments, like getting to name them. This is a meaningful moment you and I are having.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now I want to read, David, a quote from your book <\/span>Finding Meaning<\/span><\/i>, and then we can talk about it together. It\u2019s a beautiful quote. You write: \u201cPeople often think there\u2019s no way to heal from severe loss. I believe that\u2019s not true. You heal when you can remember those who have died with more love than pain, when you find a way to create meaning in your own life in a way that will honor theirs. It requires a decision and a desire to do this, but finding meaning is not extraordinary. It\u2019s ordinary. It happens all the time, all over the world.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

There are two parts of this that I want to pull out and have you comment on. One is: \u201cI believe that it\u2019s not true. You can heal from severe loss. You heal when you can remember those who have died with more love than pain.\u201d That was the first point I wanted to talk about. How can you help people make that shift? Right now they\u2019re listening and they say, \u201cRight now, I have more pain. The pain is bigger.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DK: <\/b>So, first of all, I often talk about the stories in our mind. People hear the word \u201chealing,\u201d and they sometimes think healing means forgetting, and it does not mean forgetting. Healing is when the loss, the trauma, the damage no longer controls you, and this idea that there is a small voice in us that sometimes whispers, \u201cLife can continue.\u201d Then there\u2019s often a louder voice, sometimes our old wounds that go, \u201cNo, life is over. It\u2019s done. You\u2019re stuck, and you\u2019re never getting out of this.\u201d I always say, whether we talk about it as our ego or our old wounds, it always speaks loudest, and it speaks first.<\/span><\/p>\n

I remember maybe a month or two after my son had died, a friend, Dianne Gray, called me, and she said, \u201cI know you\u2019re drowning, and you will be drowning for a long time. At some point, you will hit bottom. When you hit bottom, you will have a decision to make. Do you stay there, or do you swim again?\u201d I think we all have that decision. Most of us do it unconsciously. Do we live again after loss? Is there life after loss? Is there life after trauma? Sometimes when I would work with people, I would ask if I could put my hand on their wrist. I would feel their pulse, and I would go, \u201cYour life is continuing, whether you think so or not. Do you want to just be alive, or do you want to really live, and live a life that doesn\u2019t dishonor our loved one, but actually honors them?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

My life, every day, honors my son. It keeps him alive. Someone wrote to me, and you can understand this. You actually talked about this. We chatted beforehand. After I started lecturing again, I was doing in-person lectures, and there was a brochure that went out. A number of people wrote in and said, \u201cDavid\u2019s smiling in his picture. First of all, he\u2019s a grief expert, and second of all, I happen to know his son died. He should not be smiling in a picture.\u201d I thought about that, and I thought, first of all, number one, do we want our grief experts to look like they\u2019re at the end themselves and they can\u2019t find their own smile? Two, I always tell people, \u201cWhat you think about my grief is none of your business. My son loved my smile. My son would want me to smile. What you think of my smile is just none of your business.\u201d So we have to get rid of these old images of living again as disloyal. It\u2019s not true.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now just to clue our listeners in so you\u2019re not left out, before our conversation, I commented to David that I thought he had a beautiful smile. He was like, \u201cOh, when I was young, I was actually teased about that.\u201d I said, \u201cOh, I\u2019m commenting because I\u2019m trying to develop and let bloom a natural smile in me that\u2019s not fake at all.\u201d So, I\u2019ve been looking at smiles that I love that seem really heart-connected. So that\u2019s it. I love your comment.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DK: <\/b>I want you to know, as I look at you, Tami, there\u2019s a sweet smile in this moment.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Oh, good. That\u2019s wonderful.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DK: <\/b>It\u2019s a very heart-connected one, so\u2014<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>That\u2019s good.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DK: <\/b>\u2014you\u2019ve achieved that.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>But the thing I want to underscore in the quote, and you brought it out too, was this word \u201cdecision,\u201d this decision to live and participate in life and how this requires us to step into it, to say yes to this decision. It was a very, very powerful part of your book <\/span>Find Meaning<\/span><\/i> for me, because I thought to myself, \u201cGosh, a lot of us, even if we aren\u2019t in the midst of something we would identify as a grief journey, are kind of not really deciding that we want to be alive.\u201d We\u2019re like, \u201cYes, I guess, this is happening; this life thing\u2019s kind of happening,\u201d but we\u2019re not deciding to live. So I want to understand more about that and this decision, how you made this decision, how you help other people who find themself in that sort of vague place of \u201cI don\u2019t know, maybe? Do I have to?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DK: <\/b>Horrible things happen to us in our life. People have suffered severe abuse, rape, emotional abuse, sexual abuse, physical abuse, death, loss, tragedy. We often don\u2019t know how to find our way out of the darkness. I think that decision\u2014sometimes it looks like \u201cI don\u2019t know how to live again, but I\u2019m willing.\u201d It also requires a bit of taking back our power, that I don\u2019t want this perpetrator or this person who created this trauma to have power over me. So, I want to make a decision to find life beyond that. It does start with that decision. Once you make the decision, everything unlike it will come up in its path, and you\u2019ll have to wrestle with that. A lot of times, what happens is our old wounds come up. We feel like there\u2019s no way to live again, and I think that\u2019s why it\u2019s so important we talk about meaning and we have voices. I hope I\u2019m one of those voices that says, \u201cNo matter what you\u2019ve been through, I\u2019m not diminishing it any way.\u201d This loss is brutal. The death of my son, the trauma people go through is brutal. There\u2019s no negating or pouring pink paint on it, but there is a life beyond it that we deserve to find.<\/span><\/p>\n

Just to unpack that a little bit more, there was a time in our society where you wore black for a year when someone died. There was a distinctive moment that you could choose to continue wearing black at a year, but women would talk about taking the widow\u2019s weeds off, that there was a moment that you were told, \u201cYou have done your year.\u201d It doesn\u2019t mean the grief is over, but you have permission to live again. There is no moment in our society now that we say that grief will always be there, because the grief is the love. But you do have permission to live again. I think that\u2019s a little bit of what that decision is about, giving ourselves permission to live after loss and trauma.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now you mentioned that you found it very meaningful\u2014it made a lot of meaning for you\u2014to write the book on the sixth stage of grief. You were able to share your experience of David\u2019s death. You also talk about how writing, and whether it\u2019s writing or just telling stories, is a powerful part of meaning making. You write, \u201cMeaning both begins and ends with the stories that we tell.\u201d I\u2019m wondering now for that person who\u2019s telling a story. They\u2019ve been telling the same story over and over. It\u2019s not necessarily generating a whole lot of meaning for them, the way they\u2019re telling the story. In fact, they\u2019re just telling the story. They\u2019ve heard it over and over, and it just hurts. How can they reframe their story so that it\u2019s a meaning generating story?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DK: <\/b>That\u2019s complex\u2014you\u2019ve said a lot in that question. So, first of all, we have to tell our stories. Our stories are important, and we are our stories. They\u2019re the essence of us. We want people to know our loved one\u2019s life mattered. What happened to us mattered. This death mattered. So we need to tell our stories. We have a society that\u2019s very grief illiterate that often says, \u201cDon\u2019t tell your stories. We heard it. Be quiet now.\u201d We often don\u2019t have enough permission to tell our stories.<\/span><\/p>\n

Now, as you also said, it\u2019s interesting\u2014there can come a time that we get stuck in our story. Here\u2019s the thing about grief. Grief must be witnessed. We need our grief witnessed. We\u2019re not meant to be islands of grief. We need others to witness our grief. I have an online group that I do, and in the online group, we have check-in Monday. One of the things that\u2019s interesting that I have people do is we have to learn to actually be in this moment. We all know, \u201cOh, be in the now, be in the moment.\u201d It sounds great, but we actually don\u2019t know how to do it. We say to one another, \u201cHow are you today?\u201d We actually have to find our feelings. What happens is, when you say to people in grief, \u201cHow are you today?\u201d They\u2019ll go, \u201cOh, my gosh, I keep going over again, five years ago, my son died.\u201d We immediately go into the past and the story, and we don\u2019t know how to find ourselves in this moment.<\/span><\/p>\n

Now the reason why that\u2019s so important is, as you mentioned, some of us get stuck in the story, and we\u2019re repeating it constantly. It becomes this ruminating thought. We think we actually need the story and the details witnessed. We actually don\u2019t need that the phone rang at 4:00 pm witnessed. We need the feelings in the story witnessed. That\u2019s why being in the now is so important for us to find those feelings in this moment and have the feelings of the story witnessed, as much as the details.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>That\u2019s very helpful. Thank you for untangling that. Now you mentioned that our society is grief illiterate. I think that\u2019s true, so I have a couple of questions about this. One is, what would a grief literate society look like in your view?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DK: <\/b>We would talk about our loved ones. We would include them. We would not make them a downer to talk about. They would remain alive. I mentioned the idea of grief must be witnessed when I was touring Australia a couple of years ago. There was a researcher who told me how she researches these small villages, and they said, \u201cThe night someone dies in this village, everyone in their home has to move something or, in their yard move something.\u201d The researcher said, \u201cWhy the night of the death do you have to move something?\u201d They said, \u201cBecause the next day, when the family wakes up, we want them to understand, now that their loved one has died, everything has changed.\u201d<\/span> In our society, your loved one has died, and we tried it like, \u201cYep, you\u2019ve got three days. What else is new?\u201d It isn\u2019t that easy [\u2026].<\/span><\/p>\n

In the book, I ended up researching buffaloes. I never thought I would research buffaloes in my life. Buffaloes, when they sense a storm coming, they run into the storm, minimizing the time they\u2019re in the discomfort. On the other hand, we want to keep the pain of grief a mile behind us our whole life, instead of engaging with it. A grief-literate society would engage. There\u2019s this idea of what we avoid pursues us; what we face transforms us.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>In describing a grief-literate society\u2014we would talk about our loved ones\u2014you said, \u201cThey would remain alive.\u201d I thought, \u201cNow that\u2019s really interesting.\u201d What does that mean?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DK: <\/b>I try to do it. Listen, I just went to my goddaughters wedding, Marianne Williamson\u2019s daughter\u2019s wedding. I was to give a toast, and it was very important to me that David be there. I\u2019m at a wedding, so I don\u2019t want to go into my grief in a wedding. It\u2019s a happy moment. But my older son who lives in Arizona was actually unable to make it. So, I did, in my toast, start with, \u201cI know both my sons would physically want to be here today, but they\u2019re unable to, but I bring them here both in spirit.\u201d It was a way for everyone at the wedding to know, who knew that my son had died, that I was bringing him. Other people just thought, \u201cDavid\u2019s two sons couldn\u2019t make it.\u201d But I brought him there. I brought him. I don\u2019t leave the dead behind.<\/span><\/p>\n

A lot of times when I do trauma work with people, so many times we try to get the person out of the traumatic moment, and we leave our loved ones in the trauma. I\u2019m like, \u201cNo, you\u2019ve got to go back and get your loved ones out of the trauma too.\u201d When we get our loved ones out of the trauma and out of the death, then they can move forward with us in life.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>There\u2019s a lot more about that particular topic that I want to circle back to in a moment, but I want to ask you one more question about grief illiteracy and grief literacy by contrast. I notice I feel somewhat grief illiterate when I\u2019m encountering someone or calling someone on the phone or writing someone a note who\u2019s suffered a serious loss. I could say, \u201cI\u2019m so sorry for your loss.\u201d I remember, though, when a being close to me\u2014it happened to be a four-legged being\u2014died, a 17-year-old deep best friend, I got probably about 100 cards that all said, \u201cI\u2019m so sorry for your loss.\u201d By the time I got the 99th card, I just tore it up. I was like, \u201cEveryone\u2019s sorry for my loss. They all took the same Hallmark line and sent me a card. None of it was penetrating.\u201d Even though part of me appreciated that they wrote, another part of me was [upset].<\/span><\/p>\n

So, help people like me who aren\u2019t quite sure. I want to say something helpful, benevolent. I want to reach this person\u2019s heart. I don\u2019t know what they\u2019re going through right now. It\u2019s beyond my capacity potentially to know. How can I be literate in the face of someone\u2019s loss?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DK: <\/b>First, I have to start with your four-legged being. Tell me your four-legged being\u2019s name.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Jasmine.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DK: <\/b>Jasmine\u2014because I always want to name the loss. It\u2019s easy for us to talk about, \u201cI had this loss or that loss,\u201d but it\u2019s Jasmine. When I think about pet loss, I always say, \u201cIf the love is real, the grief is real.\u201d As we look at that idea of what to say [\u2026], it\u2019s so sad to me when you look on people\u2019s Facebooks after they\u2019ve had a loss or their Instagram. You see, \u201cSo sorry for your loss. Thoughts and prayers.\u201d I get that same feeling you had, like, \u201cThoughts and prayers, thoughts and prayers.\u201d It\u2019s like, enough with the thoughts and prayers. Anyone going to pick up the phone and call them? I think it is a little bit more of taking action, and I think it\u2019s OK to say, \u201cI don\u2019t know what the right words are, but I\u2019m here. Can I stop by? Can we have coffee? I\u2019m going to be in your neighborhood. I\u2019m dropping something by.\u201d I think we\u2019ve gotten lost in the words are enough, and I think we need to find more action. A grief literate society, to me, would have less words, and more action. It would be showing up and being with that person or walking with them.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now you\u2019re an expert at this, being with people when they\u2019re really grieving. For those of us who aren\u2019t experts and, in fact, feel more like we\u2019re approaching this at the beginner level, what are the capacities or the inner posture, attitude we need to cultivate so that we can take that action? We\u2019re like, \u201cI can do it. I can go have coffee and hold space for this person\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DK: <\/b>The first thing to normalize is it\u2019s OK that you don\u2019t know. My website\u2019s Grief.com, and the most visited page on it is \u201cThe Best and the Worst Things to Say to People in Grief,\u201d because we don\u2019t know. We make the mistake of thinking, \u201cOh, if I don\u2019t know the right words, I should say nothing,\u201d and that is a mistake. The second piece you want to know is that the person is not broken, so release that feeling inside of you that it\u2019s your job to fix them or make them feel better. Your job is to show up and sit with them in the pain, and that might be really hard for you. Now, I teach people in grief, \u201cLook, there is your friend that always went deep with you in your conversations, and there\u2019s your other friend that was your tennis friend or your bridge playing friend. Their gift was they played great bridge with you. Their gift was they played great tennis with you. Don\u2019t expect the tennis player who you never had a meaningful talk with in your life to be the most meaningful person all of a sudden. Sometimes we have friends that their gift is activity. Sometimes we have friends that their gift is going deep with us. Don\u2019t confuse the two.<\/span><\/p>\n

If you are the tennis player, say to them, \u201cListen, I\u2019m here. I love you. I don\u2019t know when you\u2019re ready to play tennis, but I\u2019m ready and willing whenever you are. I\u2019m stopping by to say hello,\u201d and to just allow yourself maybe even to be in the awkwardness of you don\u2019t know what to say. And make that be OK.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Just before we move off this topic, what are the few things that are clearly in the \u201cDon\u2019t do this\u201d column?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DK: <\/b>We \u201cbright side\u201d people. The other person I was privileged to work with, a good friend of mine for decades, is Louise Hay. We wrote a book together, <\/span>You Can Heal Your Heart<\/span><\/i>. Louise was the queen of positivity, but she was also clear on\u2014we don\u2019t want to have toxic positivity. You don\u2019t want to bright side people. [\u2026] I always tell people, don\u2019t start any sentences with the word \u201cat least\u201d: \u201cAt least they died quick. At least they\u2019re not sick anymore, because you\u2019re not witnessing the pain.\u201d You\u2019re telling people to skip around it.<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s really to just be. It goes back to there\u2019s no fixing. This is just a horrible situation. To say, \u201cIt\u2019s a horrible situation. There are no words. I can\u2019t fix this, and I love you, and I\u2019m here with you.\u201d Don\u2019t try to find the good in it, because the person has to find their good and their meaning in their own time, but they\u2019ve got to walk through the dark night first.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I want to track back to our conversation about having an evolving relationship with the person who\u2019s died, not leaving them behind in some way. This was so powerful to me, David, in your book, <\/span>Finding Meaning: The Sixth Stage of Grief<\/span><\/i>, this notion that our relationship with the person who\u2019s died can potentially keep evolving. I want to understand more about that, and to begin, address the person who says, \u201cLook, so-and-so died. They\u2019re dead. How could that relationship keep evolving? They\u2019re gone.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DK: <\/b>Well, psychologically, there was even a blip when we thought there should be closure and an ending of the relationship with the person who died. Immediately, we saw that was not the case, that it was important to have what\u2019s called continuing bonds, and that the relationship continues. I always say, \u201cDon\u2019t give death any more power than it already has. Death has the power to take our loved ones physically, but it doesn\u2019t have the power to end our relationship, and it doesn\u2019t have the power to end our love.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

There is a saying, \u201cGrief is love with no place to go,\u201d and I understand the saying. At the same time, I send my son love every day. I don\u2019t quit loving him just because he\u2019s dead. I still parent him in my heart. I still love my parents. I wonder what it would be like if I could talk to my mother in this moment or my nephew in this moment or my son in this moment. Sometimes I\u2019ll have conversations with them. There are people listening for whom maybe the end did not come well. Maybe they had a tough time. Maybe both people were wounded and speaking from their wounds. I\u2019ll often tell people, \u201cYour loved one has died, and I bet that\u2019s matured you and helped you evolve. Can you imagine that your loved one, if they spoke from their wound, wherever they\u2019re at now, they\u2019re evolving and maturing probably more than we are. So can we give them the grace to know that we\u2019re both still changing and evolving and try to have more evolved conversations as we can?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Let me ask you a question about this. Let\u2019s say someone says, \u201cI\u2019m having an ongoing relationship with this person who died, and I fear it\u2019s all in my head. I\u2019m making it up. I\u2019m making up this evolving relationship. Maybe on Monday and Wednesdays I believe it\u2019s actually happening, but the rest of the days of the week, I think it\u2019s just a fiction inside my brain.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DK: <\/b>I would say, what does it matter? What does it matter? Look, let me tell you, this kind of relates to what I think about the afterlife. To me, there\u2019s three options for the afterlife. This is just my belief. Option one, our loved ones have gone to the afterlife, heaven, whatever you may believe. Option one, they know what\u2019s going on with us. They know what I\u2019m doing every day. My son, my parents are keeping up with me. That\u2019s option one. If that\u2019s true, I want them to see me grieving fully and eventually living fully.<\/span><\/p>\n

Option two is, they died, and they\u2019re in a place where they\u2019ve got bigger fish to fry than what I\u2019m doing. They\u2019ve got interesting things in the cosmos that I can\u2019t even begin to understand. They don\u2019t have any idea what\u2019s happening on Earth. In that case, I want to grieve fully and live fully. The third option is the atheist view. When you die, there\u2019s nothingness. Your consciousness ends, and your story is over. If that option is true, then at some point my story will end, and my consciousness will end. So I want to make sure, while I\u2019m here, I grieve fully and live fully.<\/span><\/p>\n

So no matter which it is, it comes back to grieving fully, living fully. If that includes a relationship for me with my loved one that\u2019s meaningful, it only has to be meaningful to me. Whether it\u2019s meaningful to someone else is kind of irrelevant. I get meaning out of continuing a relationship with my son, with my parents. I don\u2019t have any illusions. No one\u2019s sitting in a chair next to me. No one\u2019s in the kitchen cooking or picking me up at noon who\u2019s dead. I have no illusions, but I have a heart connection that lives beyond death.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Those three options, I like that. It\u2019s all very logical and makes sense to me in an analytical way of looking at things. But it seems pretty clear, David, that you, in your own experience, and this is yours, believe that there is continuity after.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DK: <\/b>I do.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I\u2019d be curious to know what gives you that confidence.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DK: <\/b>Well, a couple of things. I did research years ago for my work in end-of-life care. I wrote a book about the research called<\/span> Visions, Trips, and Crowded Rooms: Who and What You See Before You Die<\/span><\/i>, and it was about deathbed visions that we have when we\u2019re dying, how our loved ones come to greet us. The stories were just remarkable and consistent, despite your religion, despite where on this planet you were. It seems that there\u2019s something that happens at the end of life. That veil comes down, and our loved ones greet us. It\u2019s so powerful, and I just saw it. In the book, I made sure I interviewed\u2014because I wanted it to stand up credibly\u2014I interviewed doctors, nurses, paramedics, psychologists, priests, rabbis, ministers, that I wanted their experience of the dead coming back to greet the dying at the end of life. So that really gave me a sense that something happens. You know what? If decades in the future, long after I\u2019m dead, my older son is on his deathbed, I\u2019m going to come and greet him. It\u2019s such an amazing phenomenon. That really gave me a grounded sense that something is there. Something is there.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>The notion [of] vision trips, crowded rooms\u2014the crowded room part is that there are beings that have already passed over that are crowding the room to\u2014<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DK: <\/b>[Yes, these] phenomena that people have is they have visions of their loved one coming to greet them, and they have a sense of they\u2019re going on a journey, a trip. Even the word \u201chospice\u201d comes from an old Latin word that means a way station where you rest before your final journey. People will have imagery of death is really the trip of a lifetime, and they\u2019ll talk about crowds of people. They\u2019ll say, \u201cWho were all the people visiting last night?\u201d We write it off as hallucinations, and in the book I tease out scientifically the difference between hallucinations and deathbed visions and how they\u2019re very different experiences. Those really helped me.<\/span><\/p>\n

I\u2019ll tell you, my own father, when he was dying, was so sad and depressed and hopeless, and then maybe a day before he died, he shifted. I said, \u201cDad, what happened?\u201d He said, \u201cI realized I\u2019m going to a place where your mother already is and that I\u2019m going to see her again, and we\u2019re going to see you again, even though we\u2019re gone.\u201d My father was the biggest skeptic in the world. There is something that happened. He said, \u201cShe came to me.\u201d It\u2019s powerful.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now I want to just understand a bit more this statement you made that \u201clet\u2019s not give death more than it\u2019s already taking from us. Death doesn\u2019t need to be the end of our relationship with this being, this person.\u201d To that listener who says, wow, I actually was living as if death had ended a huge part, at least, of the relationship. Maybe I kept the love in my heart, but I didn\u2019t feel I was in relationship any longer with this person. What would you say? They\u2019re like, \u201cOh, I want to see what kind of a relationship can we be in.\u201d How would you help someone open to that and start discovering things about that?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DK: <\/b>Well, I think the first thing is to realize the stories we have either as a society that we\u2019ve believed in our own mind that \u201cit\u2019s over, it\u2019s over\u201d. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s over. It continues. To release the story in your mind that the relationship did have to end, to release that story and just be like, \u201cLook, I don\u2019t know what that looks like.\u201d I\u2019m not someone who gets a million signs from my son. I\u2019m not someone who\u2014I don\u2019t feel like I\u2019m seeing things all the time or visions or whatever. But do I have a sense in my heart that our relationship continues, and my love continues? Absolutely. I remind people, we don\u2019t have a broken mind; we have a broken heart. If we can come from our heart and let the love continue\u2014when people say, \u201cI miss them,\u201d I\u2019ll say, \u201cMiss them then.\u201d \u201cI love them.\u201d \u201cLove them then. Continue.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>How has your relationship with your mom\u2014you mentioned that she died when you were just 13. How has that evolved over time? How would you describe your relationship with your mom now?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DK: <\/b>Well, there were times I would go, when my son was alive, \u201cWow, mom, you never got to meet my kids. I wonder what kind of grandmother you would be.\u201d Then sometimes I imagine, \u201cOh, she would be like this, and she would think this.\u201d I\u2019m not hearing her voice talk to me. I\u2019m not saying that, although people do feel like they get a sense sometimes of a loved one saying something to them.<\/span><\/p>\n

Then when my son died, I\u2019m like, \u201cWell, mom, you physically are meeting him now. You physically are together. Mom, I hope you were there to meet him and take him in and make sure he\u2019s OK.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Have you felt any ongoing relationship with Elisabeth K\u00fcbler-Ross and your work in publishing now the sixth stage of grief.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DK: <\/b>I have dreams about her, and I don\u2019t know when we have these dreams if it\u2019s just a dream or it\u2019s them visiting. I mean, I think nighttime is a time that our beliefs go down, and we\u2019re more open to connections. She certainly lives in my dreams, and I certainly feel her in my work. Sometimes I get voices of Elisabeth saying, \u201cOh, ask them about this,\u201d or, \u201cTell them about that.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now you write in <\/span>Finding Meaning <\/span><\/i>something that I found very beautiful. You write, \u201cWe often believe that our grief will grow smaller in time. It doesn\u2019t. We must grow bigger.\u201d I thought that was gorgeous. I do think people are like, \u201cI just\u2014ah, my grief will grow smaller in time.\u201d Tell me instead what it means to grow bigger.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DK: <\/b>I think that the grief is the love, so I don\u2019t want it to get smaller. I don\u2019t want to get rid of it. It\u2019s part of who I am, and I want to accept all the parts of me, the good, the bad, the ugly. I want to accept all of the parts of me. So my goal is to grow around the grief, and the story that I told in the book was, when I was in Germany lecturing, I went to Hamburg. I had been to all these European cities, and they\u2019re all so old and gorgeous. I live in Los Angeles where an old building here is 1949. Then you go to a place like Germany and Europe, and you see buildings from hundreds and hundreds of years ago. I get to Hamburg, and it\u2019s this brand-new city. I was a little illiterate in my history, and I said, \u201cWhy is Hamburg so new?\u201d They said, \u201cOh, it\u2019s because the Americans and the British bombed us in World War II.\u201d They said, \u201cYou need to go to St. Nikolai.\u201d So I went to St. Nikolai, which is this beautiful church in the center of Hamburg, Germany. This whole city has been so gorgeously rebuilt, and here sits this church, completely bombed. It\u2019s never been rebuilt. It stands there ruined. But there\u2019s something about it being there in the heart of this new city. It really makes me think how our transformation is in the ruins.<\/span><\/p>\n

The death of my son is a little bit like that church, that there is a part of my heart that will forever be devastated and in ruins around his death. It doesn\u2019t mean, just like that city, I can\u2019t grow a huge, full life around that wound, and to transform it from my traumatic wound to my cherished wound. I think we all have the ability to do that.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Very, very beautiful statement, to transform it from our traumatic wound to our cherished wound. I\u2019ve been speaking with David Kessler, a beautiful human, beautiful writer. He\u2019s the author of the book <\/span>Finding Meaning: The Sixth Stage of Grief<\/span><\/i>. You mentioned your sons in the book as a helper, that this book will be a healing agent, a helping agent for people, and that is definitely happening. It\u2019s on, David. Thank you so much. Thanks for the conversation.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DK: <\/b>Thank you. I really appreciate it. Thanks so much.<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Thank you for listening to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>. You can read a full transcript of today\u2019s interview at SoundsTrue.com\/podcast. If you\u2019re interested, hit the Subscribe button in your podcast app. Also, if you feel inspired, head to iTunes and leave <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i> a review. I love getting your feedback, being in connection with you, and learning how we can continue to evolve and improve our program. Working together, I believe, we can create a kinder and wiser world. SoundsTrue.com: waking up the world.<\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"template":"","meta":{"_expiration-date-status":"","_expiration-date":0,"_expiration-date-type":"","_expiration-date-categories":[],"_expiration-date-options":[]},"class_list":["post-19356","transcript","type-transcript","status-publish","hentry"],"yoast_head":"\nFinding Meaning In Our Grief - Transcript | Sounds True<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Finding Meaning In Our Grief. Explore teachings on meditation and spiritual wisdom.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"noindex, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Finding Meaning In Our Grief - Transcript | Sounds True\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Finding Meaning In Our Grief. Explore teachings on meditation and spiritual wisdom.\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/finding-meaning-in-our-grief\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Sounds True\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"44 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/finding-meaning-in-our-grief\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/finding-meaning-in-our-grief\/\",\"name\":\"Finding Meaning In Our Grief - Transcript | Sounds True\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#website\"},\"datePublished\":\"2022-01-10T21:34:59+00:00\",\"description\":\"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Finding Meaning In Our Grief. Explore teachings on meditation and spiritual wisdom.\",\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/finding-meaning-in-our-grief\/#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/finding-meaning-in-our-grief\/\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/finding-meaning-in-our-grief\/#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"Transcripts\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":3,\"name\":\"Finding Meaning in Our Grief\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/\",\"name\":\"Sounds True\",\"description\":\"\",\"publisher\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#organization\"},\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":{\"@type\":\"PropertyValueSpecification\",\"valueRequired\":true,\"valueName\":\"search_term_string\"}}],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"Organization\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#organization\",\"name\":\"Sounds True\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/\",\"logo\":{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#\/schema\/logo\/image\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/08\/soundstrue-logo-footer-color.png\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/08\/soundstrue-logo-footer-color.png\",\"width\":1035,\"height\":235,\"caption\":\"Sounds True\"},\"image\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#\/schema\/logo\/image\/\"}}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Finding Meaning In Our Grief - Transcript | Sounds True","description":"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Finding Meaning In Our Grief. Explore teachings on meditation and spiritual wisdom.","robots":{"index":"noindex","follow":"follow","max-snippet":"max-snippet:-1","max-image-preview":"max-image-preview:large","max-video-preview":"max-video-preview:-1"},"og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"Finding Meaning In Our Grief - Transcript | Sounds True","og_description":"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Finding Meaning In Our Grief. Explore teachings on meditation and spiritual wisdom.","og_url":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/finding-meaning-in-our-grief\/","og_site_name":"Sounds True","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_misc":{"Est. reading time":"44 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/finding-meaning-in-our-grief\/","url":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/finding-meaning-in-our-grief\/","name":"Finding Meaning In Our Grief - Transcript | Sounds True","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#website"},"datePublished":"2022-01-10T21:34:59+00:00","description":"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Finding Meaning In Our Grief. Explore teachings on meditation and spiritual wisdom.","breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/finding-meaning-in-our-grief\/#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/finding-meaning-in-our-grief\/"]}]},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/finding-meaning-in-our-grief\/#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"Transcripts","item":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":3,"name":"Finding Meaning in Our Grief"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#website","url":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/","name":"Sounds True","description":"","publisher":{"@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#organization"},"potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":{"@type":"PropertyValueSpecification","valueRequired":true,"valueName":"search_term_string"}}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Organization","@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#organization","name":"Sounds True","url":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/","logo":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#\/schema\/logo\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/08\/soundstrue-logo-footer-color.png","contentUrl":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/08\/soundstrue-logo-footer-color.png","width":1035,"height":235,"caption":"Sounds True"},"image":{"@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#\/schema\/logo\/image\/"}}]}},"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/transcript\/19356","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/transcript"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/transcript"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=19356"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}