{"id":19389,"date":"2022-01-24T11:42:45","date_gmt":"2022-01-24T18:42:45","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?post_type=transcript&p=19389"},"modified":"2022-01-24T11:42:45","modified_gmt":"2022-01-24T18:42:45","slug":"a-love-letter-to-friendships-and-how-to-break-up-with-mediocre-friends","status":"publish","type":"transcript","link":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/a-love-letter-to-friendships-and-how-to-break-up-with-mediocre-friends\/","title":{"rendered":"A Love Letter to Friendships . . . And How to Break Up with Mediocre Friends"},"content":{"rendered":"
\"image_print\"Print Transcript<\/span><\/a><\/div>

Tami Simon:<\/b> Welcome to <\/span>Insights at the Edge <\/span><\/i>produced by Sounds True. My name is Tami Simon. I\u2019m the founder of Sounds True, and I\u2019d love to take a moment to introduce you to the Sounds True Foundation. The goal of the Sounds True Foundation is to provide access and eliminate financial barriers to transformational education and resources, such as teachings and trainings on mindfulness, emotional awareness, and self-compassion. If you\u2019d like to learn more and join with us in our efforts, please visit SoundsTrueFoundation.org.<\/span><\/p>\n

You\u2019re listening to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>. Today, my guest is Erin Falconer. Erin is an author, digital entrepreneur, and the editor in chief and co-owner of Pick the Brain, one of the most trusted self-improvement communities online. She was named one of the top digital entrepreneurs in Los Angeles by Los Angeles Confidential and one of the Top Ten Women Changing the Digital Landscape for Good by Refinery29. Erin has a master\u2019s degree in clinical psychology and lives in Los Angeles. And with Sounds True, she\u2019s released a new book, it\u2019s called <\/span>How to Break Up with your Friends: Finding Meaning, Connection, and Boundaries in Modern Friendships<\/span><\/i>.<\/span><\/p>\n

Truth be told, I felt a little nervous when I saw the title of Erin Falconer\u2019s new book, <\/span>How to Break Up with your Friends<\/span><\/i>, and that we\u2019d be having this conversation. To me, it\u2019s such a tender topic with so much nuance. There\u2019s so much love and complexity in many of our friendships. Erin is a terrific guide for this conversation, bringing us to what always seems like the most important thing when a tender heart is involved. Truth telling, knowing yourself, and expressing yourself with clarity and deep listening. Here\u2019s my conversation with Erin Falconer.<\/span><\/p>\n

Erin, you\u2019re a Canadian who\u2019s now living in Los Angeles, and you wrote a book that was published in 2018 called <\/span>How to Get S-H-I-T Done<\/span><\/i>. Oh, just say it, Tami, but OK. And it was a book that was very well received. And I\u2019d love to know a little bit of your journey, of your winding path of what took you to Los Angeles, and the writing of <\/span>How to Get Sh*t Done<\/span><\/i>.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Erin Falconer:<\/b> Well, like so many in Los Angeles, I\u2019m an overnight success that took 17 years. And what I mean by that is so many people that have kind of made it onto the other side, it is never, or very rarely a linear journey. And so, I started out in high school and in my very young years being extremely type A\u2014and I still am to a certain degree\u2014but very grades, grades, success, success, success, very studious, did all the things, school president, head of the debate, you just name it, I was doing it. And I never really stopped to critically think about that or analyze anything.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

And one day, I was driving to my best friend\u2019s house in Winnipeg. And on the radio, there was an ad, a commercial to find Canada\u2019s next funniest comedian. And something in that commercial hit me like an arrow in the heart. And when I arrived at my best friend\u2019s house, instead of doing a study session, I spent the next 45 minutes convincing her that we would create a stand-up comedy routine and enter this competition, much to her horror. That was the first instance that I had of kind of an inner voice coming out and, of course, I didn\u2019t know what that was then, right?<\/span><\/p>\n

And so that kind of set me off. I did that. We did very well. I continued to do comedy as a side hustle for three or four or five years after that. But I continued on my academic trajectory. I went to McGill, then I applied to law school. And on the eve of going to law school, I had another kind of epiphany and said, \u201cYou know, you\u2019re having so much fun doing this comedy stuff, why don\u2019t you try writing?\u201d Long story short. That\u2019s what I did in Toronto. When that didn\u2019t work well in Toronto. I said, \u201cYou know, I got to give this a bigger shot.\u201d And I moved to LA. And I moved to LA with the best intentions and the biggest hopes and dreams, but with no plan.<\/span><\/p>\n

So what life did was, say, a hard pass. I found myself very down and out and with no options. And I think one of the worst things that happened is that I had decided to listen to that inner voice and I thought that inner voice had led me astray. And so, with no options, I was having to go back to Canada. I had no money, I had no career, I had no car, and my papers were up. I had one of those rom-com moments where I was literally crying on the bathroom floor going, like, \u201cOh, my God, what happened to my life? I should be a lawyer right now.\u201d And I call two mentors\u2014two mentors that have kind of been guiding me the whole time. And I said, \u201cOh, my God, what have I done? This is a terrible mistake.\u201d And both of them, who don\u2019t know each other, said to me, \u201cWell, what is that inner voice? What is your intuition telling you? What do you want to really do??\u201d And I said, \u201cWell, I want to write. That\u2019s what I want to do. But who cares what I want to do? Look at the situation I\u2019m in.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Anyways, they both convinced me to give it another try. So I made a promise to myself. I submitted 100 resumes on Craigslist, anything. Just to get any kind of job. I got one response to be a copyright assistant on a self-improvement startup in 2008, which is when startups were really just starting, blogging was really just starting. And I said, \u201cOK, I\u2019m going to take this job. But if I do it, I\u2019m going to put a plan\u2014I\u2019m not just going to, whatever, be flying by the seat of my pants. And that\u2019s kind of when my whole life started to really shift with intention and focus.<\/span><\/p>\n

I found myself in the internet world. I found myself very curious about that. And I started writing my own blog called Pick the Brain. It wasn\u2019t the kind of writing I moved down to Los Angeles for, but it was writing nonetheless. And I found myself in a very exciting and creative space, and I was able to take that\u2014fortuitously and through some hard work\u2014very, very far. And then I ended up raising a lot of money for another internet company. And then all of a sudden, all this time later, I got a call from a New York lead agency saying, \u201cWe\u2019d love you to write a book.\u201d And so, it kind of came full circle where I found myself being pitched to write and I couldn\u2019t believe it.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Tthe funny thing about that is that when I got this email, I was so excited. I came up with all these ideas, these pitches for the call. I would say, \u201cOh, I could write about this, I could write about that.\u201d And when I got on the call, and I was very excited to share my ideas, she was like, whoa, whoa, wait. I think there\u2019s a misunderstanding. We love those ideas that you\u2019re talking about, but we actually want you to write a book about you. And I was so devastated. I was like, who would read this book? What are you talking about? I thought I had all these great ideas. I got off the phone, I was very dejected. I was like, I\u2019m not going to write a book about, whatever.<\/span><\/p>\n

The next day, I went into the office, and I started to look around. And I had the great fortune of working with some amazing women, and I just kind of looked at how everybody was operating. And I was like, oh, I think we\u2019re suffering from the same illness. We\u2019re just going, going, going. We\u2019re never stopping to take stock of our success, how we feel about our success, where we are, how we feel about being where we are, there\u2019s no reflection, there\u2019s no self-audit. It\u2019s just go, go, go, go, go, and that\u2019s a real problem. And out of that, I was like, now that\u2019s a book. And I don\u2019t have all the answers, but I want to write this and figure this out as I\u2019m writing it.<\/span><\/p>\n

Anyway, that\u2019s about a 20-minute answer to your first question. But it just kind of like\u2014it is the creation of 17 years of trying and failing and trying and failing and choosing to evolve in those failures rather than recoil and kind of denigrate into the fear-based version of myself.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Now, I am just curious about two things. One, do you do comedy today ever?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EF:<\/b> I haven\u2019t in such a long time, but that is one of my New Year\u2019s resolutions. I\u2019ve been writing jokes down for a long time, but one of my New Year\u2019s resolutions, if COVID ever decides to go away, is to go back on an open mic night and try and maybe workshop some new material.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Your new book with Sounds True, <\/span>How to Break Up with your Friends: Finding Meaning, Connection, and Boundaries in Modern Friendships. <\/span><\/i>It\u2019s a nonfiction prescriptive book, if you will, but there were some laugh-out-loud moments, Erin. I had a couple where I was, like, this woman\u2019s really funny. I didn\u2019t know you did comedy.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EF:<\/b> Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> OK, here\u2019s my second question. When you hear your inner voice and you go, \u201cAh, that\u2019s it.\u201d It stopped you from going to law school. You pulled the emergency brake. How do you recognize it? Like, ah, there it is. This is important. This is not just more of this gabba gabba rap in my head.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EF: <\/b>Right. Yes. So, here\u2019s the thing. When those first things happened, when I heard the ad for the comedian, when [I had] the epiphany about not going to law school, I didn\u2019t realize that was my inner voice at that time. I was just kind of\u2014something popped into my head and then I fixed it. And even if I try to forget this, it keeps coming up, coming up. It\u2019s only years, years, years later when I realized. And probably the first time I really started to realize that is when I had the calls with those two mentors in those very dark days, where their insistence that the truth was there and I needed to listen to that, regardless of what the reality was, this was the truth.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

And that, I think, was probably the first time that I identified that in a concrete way, like, oh, that\u2019s what that is. It\u2019s a very magical, esoteric idea, but to be able to put maybe a little bit of a label on it and say, that\u2019s the essence of who I am and it\u2019s trying to push me in that direction. So for me, since then, I\u2019ve spent\u2014and part of my plan when I said I was going to take this crappy copywriting job, but put a plan around it, was to be very intentional and very\u2014trying to live in the moment with intention. And one of the things I did was start practicing meditation, which was a real absolute game changer for me.\u00a0\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

And I still do that today and I firmly believe it. And I know that that\u2019s not for everybody. But what I like to say is I found this all the time when I was working at my old company. People would come in very excitedly to a meeting or run to my office and say, \u201cOh, my God. I have this great idea.\u201d And they tell me the idea, and I go, \u201cYes, that\u2019s amazing. How did you think of that?\u201d And without fail, they will say something like, \u201cI was just in the shower and it came to me.\u201d Or \u201cI was waking up and it came to me.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

So this is, for many, the only time in the day when you\u2019re not thinking, right? When there\u2019s hot water coming over, massaging your head with shampoo, and it\u2019s just a couple of minutes and you\u2019re not doing it intentionally. But it\u2019s the only couple of minutes where you\u2019re not thinking, right? So, for me, that\u2019s the time where it\u2019s such a clear, successful case study where it\u2019s like when you are not all up in your schedule and the to-do list and all that stuff where this voice can emerge. The answers can emerge. But you can only do that if you are intentional about reducing the chaos.<\/span><\/p>\n

So, whether you are into meditation or that\u2019s not your thing, it is incumbent, it is imperative that you find your hot shower and you do that with extreme discipline every day. And there\u2019s a water shortage in California, so I don\u2019t want everybody going in for 20 minutes running their water. But metaphorically, to access the inner voice, which I believe everybody has, you need to silence everything else around you so that that voice can be heard, right?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Right. Very clear, very clear. Now, one of the principles, I would say foundational, cornerstone principles that you introduced in <\/span>How to Get Sh*t Done<\/span><\/i> that really got my attention, and I want to talk to you about it, is when we take 100 percent responsibility for our lives, this leads to 100 percent freedom. And I wanted to understand more that connection. I think I understand the idea of taking 100 percent responsibility for everything that\u2019s happening, I think, but I don\u2019t get how that leads to 100 percent freedom.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EF: <\/b>Well, because once you take responsibility for your action\u2014and this actually, this concept really bleeds up into the other book as well and I\u2019ll talk about that in a second. It\u2019s that you are not beholden to anybody, right? When you give somebody the power of responsibility over something in your life or your actions or your success, then what you do is you give them some ownership over that, which they\u2019re not even necessarily taking, literally taking, but you\u2019re giving that away.<\/span><\/p>\n

So, in order to be able to operate freely, you need to not give away those little pieces of power. And it\u2019s kind of counterintuitive, because when you think about owning failures and owning things that you\u2019re less proud of or owning challenges that you don\u2019t want to assign your own, it feels like, I think that the general vibe or feeling on that is that you\u2019re admitting weakness or something. But what you\u2019re really doing is saying, even if that wasn\u2019t the best outcome, I own that. I own that part of my narrative.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so, every time you can carve that out, regardless of what the outcome is, you are kind of accumulating real estate, if you want, your own energetic real estate. And so, I think the idea is to flip the script on what it means to fail or what it means to, of course you want to feel\u2014I want to be clear when I say\u2014I\u2019m not trying to have a rosy opinion of failure. I want you to feel the pain, I want you to feel the disappointment, I want you to feel the hurt. And then, I want you to give it a teachable moment. And the only way you can really do that is if you own it. Otherwise, it\u2019s somebody else\u2019s lesson to learn, whoever you\u2019re attaching blame to.<\/span><\/p>\n

So you have a lot more freedom to operate, to move, to pivot, to grow when you truly understand your responsibility and your ownership over everything that\u2019s going on in your life. That\u2019s not to say, asterisk or caveat, if something terrible has been done to you, I\u2019m not suggesting you have ownership over that. But as they say, you cannot control what is happening to you, you can control how you react to it. I think that\u2019s where the ownership piece comes in. Don\u2019t throw your hands up and give away that power. Yes, that\u2019s what I\u2019d say on that. I don\u2019t know if that answers your questions exactly.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Yes, it does, and I think it\u2019s interesting that in a way, there\u2019s a connection between your first book <\/span>How to Get Sh*t Done<\/span><\/i>, where you\u2019re really helping people say, \u201cI\u2019m going to take responsibility for my schedule, for what I prioritize, for what I put my time and energy in.\u201d And now, with your new book on friendship, I\u2019m going to take responsibility for the quality of my friendship life. And I\u2019m curious how your attention turned and you thought this is the next big topic I want to tackle.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EF: <\/b>Yes. So, it\u2019s funny, because when I was thinking about what am I going to write as a follow-up to the first book\u2014this whole foray into friendships started very oddly as a foray into, again, feminine productivity and productivity with a very specific female lens. I wasn\u2019t thinking about friendship when I started this, I was thinking about how can I do the first book 2.0. But as I sort of was going down that rabbit hole, I kept bumping up against, not consciously, but relationship stuff. And again, not consciously, and I actually was actively working on a different concept for the second book, I put the whole pitch together.<\/span><\/p>\n

My agent kept being very supportive, but lukewarm on it. It was like, aha. Not the feeling you want to have where it\u2019s like, this is a home run, the kind of cheerleading that agents usually do. And I loved the idea and I just couldn\u2019t really get the reaction. And so I was going in a different direction. And that\u2019s why I say, unconsciously, I was bumping up against this relationship stuff. I finally put the whole thing together. It was about to go out and pitch it, and I woke up, again, I kind of referenced this before, I woke up at six in the morning, kind of half asleep, half awake and the title of the book just came to me. I sat up and I was like, what is that about?<\/span><\/p>\n

And the whole morning, I just kept coming back to this. What is this topic: how to break up with your friend? I\u2019ve never thought about anything like this before. And then it started to, I had kept it all day and I started to have this aha moment. And it really came to me, if we\u2019re talking about productivity, and specifically female productivity where I might, as you know, my hypothesis that we\u2019re trying to do way too much and therefore accomplishing way too little as far as it really is meaningful stuff for us. And this flashlight started to be shone on the fact of, I think we have this incredibly untapped resource in our friendships, in these very unique relationships that are not familial, they\u2019re not romantic, and there\u2019s so much power there, and yet we pay so little attention to them in a way.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

We\u2019re always talking about our friends, and friends always appear on shows and in movies. But if you think about it clinically or therapeutically, there\u2019s individual therapy, there\u2019s couples therapy, there\u2019s family therapy. But these very important relationships receive a lot less observation, thought, auditing. And so, that\u2019s how I kind of started on that. And I was like, wow, this is a really untapped resource for energy. And of course, energy is, I think, the cornerstone of true productivity, right? When you\u2019re firing and all, everything\u2019s working together. And so, yes, in a very odd way, I consider this the twin sister or cousin to that productivity conversation that I started with the first book.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> It\u2019s interesting that the title came to you in a type of intuitive flash. I know when I heard the title, <\/span>How to Break Up with your Friends<\/span><\/i>, I thought to myself, I need that. I need help with that. And just confessionally for a moment, I think I\u2019ve had friendships and I don\u2019t think I\u2019ve done a very good job. And probably a lot of people, when they hear a title like that, <\/span>How to Break Up with your Friends<\/span><\/i>, might have that same thing come up for them. And I know, it\u2019s a source of a lot of pain to think that I kind of weaseled my way out of certain friendships or just sort of disappeared and what happened? I don\u2019t know. I never had the courage or didn\u2019t quite know how to say to the person, \u201cWow, I don\u2019t find you interesting anymore.\u201d I\u2019m not quite sure how to say that. So, I wonder if you can talk some about that, just even the pain that comes up for people when they are struck by the title?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EF: <\/b>Yes. It\u2019s been so really unbelievable, because I\u2019ve had two polar opposite reactions consistently. And the first one is much like what you just said, \u201cOh, my God, yes. It\u2019s like you read my mind. I need this, I\u2019m going, I need to get out of these things.\u201d Or just like you said, I\u2019ve had some experiences in the past, which have just not been great and whatever. And then, there\u2019s been the other reaction, which has been, \u201cBreak up with my friends? I\u2019m so isolated, I haven\u2019t seen anybody, I need to understand how to make friends. Break up? I\u2019m trying to acquire more friends.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

And so, the first thing that I want to say is that while the title of the book is <\/span>How to Break Up with your Friends<\/span><\/i>, there\u2019s one chapter really dedicated to how to break up with your friends. There are nine chapters on how to really do friendship a lot better and a lot more intentionally.<\/span><\/p>\n

Up until now, I believe we\u2019ve been doing them because I believe the power of good friendships is so untapped and so untold. I just think, more now than ever, we really need this kind of support network. Because, frankly, I\u2019m just saying, we get crushed under the weight of what has happened over the last two years. And I think we\u2019re going to see the fallout from that just keep escalating. Not to be a downer, but this is a big collective psychological trauma we\u2019ve all gone through together.<\/span><\/p>\n

And I\u2019m also seeing so much partner pressure, right? Because like your romantic partner, as Esther Perel says\u2014which I think is brilliant it\u2019s just like in modern day couples\u2014the partner now is everything to the other person, right? They\u2019re the lover, they\u2019re the homemaker, they\u2019re doing yoga lessons together, they\u2019re just so enmeshed, and that\u2019s really not sustainable, right? And so, I think even for our own romance coming out of work from home and just the craziness of romantic partnership in these last two years, even for that front, it is so important to be able to conscientiously say, \u201cI have this friend, this is what this friend gives me, this is what I give to this friend. What does this relationship give me? And now, I don\u2019t need to have this on the shoulders of my romantic partner, and this is what this friend does for me.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so, you start to compartmentalize, which I know feels calculated, but I don\u2019t know a better way to say it other than I think we need to stop having our romantic partners be everything. It\u2019s just a crushing weight, right?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EF: <\/b>And being received as a crushing weight as well. I feel it\u2019s really taking the magic and the mystery and the everything you would really single out as something that was a romantic relationship is kind of being taken by the sheer weight of the pressure that these relationships now have.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> One of the authors we work with, his name is Stan Tatkin, who\u2019s a relationship expert, he talks about how your intimate partner is really your survival partner. And I think during the pandemic, we feel that: you\u2019re my survival person here.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EF: <\/b>Right, right.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Now you recommend that people do a type of, I\u2019ll use this phrase, taking stock in our conversation or an audit or an inventory, if you will, of the state of friendship in my life. How do I do that? What am I looking for? What am I auditing?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EF: <\/b>Well, I mean, I think you want to, first of all, just kind of take a snapshot or a list of the people that you either think are omnipresent or are omnipresent, that you feel some sort of responsibility toward. And then literally just\u2014kind of like I did in the first book where I talked about a seven-day time challenge, where people write down almost literally everything they\u2019re doing every single day for seven days. Then hold that up against the list of the three big goals they actually want to achieve and see how far off the mark they are. I ask people to literally write down everybody that is in their life that they would consider a friend, and then start to look at how you feel about them. What comes up for you when you\u2014I talk about this litmus test. When you see X, Y, and Z number come up on your phone, what\u2019s your immediate reaction? Are you ecstatic that they\u2019re calling? Are you relieved they\u2019re calling? Are you irritated they\u2019re calling? Look at that, right? Because that\u2019s all information.<\/span><\/p>\n

And the reason I suggest to write these things down, of course, is because once it\u2019s black and white, I feel there\u2019s a responsibility there that you can\u2019t quite ignore, right?, when you see what you\u2019ve written down on a piece of paper or typed into a computer. So, I think the first starting point is just literally taking an inventory of who is in your life and then start taking an inventory of the way you sort of feel about them, just on a basic level. And then you start looking at yourself and saying, now what do I actually need in my life? What am I looking for in my life, and who aligns with that? What relationship feels like something that will nurture you and help support you.<\/span><\/p>\n

And I always say, this goes two ways. I\u2019m not going to keep saying that. But I mean this very much as a two-way street, when I\u2019m saying the relationship with the other person. And start to be really, again, intentional about, hey, there\u2019s only so many hours in the day, right? And I talk about a lot of the science in the book, about what experts think. What is the maximum amount of really good friends you could have? What is the minimum amount of really good friends you should have in terms of overall health and well-being and all kinds of the physiological benefits to friendship.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so, really start putting together a profile. And then a lot of the work is looking at yourself, and saying, now what role do I play in these friendships? What does that say about me? Am I comfortable in that role? Or is it just something I\u2019ve kind of been zoned in, channeled into, right? And start saying, how do I want to be actively in these friendships? And how much time can and should I commit to all of them? And so, you really just start doing the work of laying out the landscape of actually what\u2019s going on in your life.<\/span><\/p>\n

I mean, I know this sounds callous, but much like you would do in a closet clean out, right? OK, now what is in here, I can\u2019t even see half the stuff that\u2019s in here, because I have so many sweaters piled up, there\u2019s ones in the back. Take it all out and start to say, now what is this for? Or do I have a use for this? Is this valuable? Does this fit me from another time, or does it still look good on me? It\u2019s that kind of thing. And, again, I use that very lightly metaphorically, because these relationships are much more valuable than an old crumpled shirt, of course. But I think that the methodology about it and the approach to it is quite similar, in the sense that you don\u2019t know what you have until you\u2019ve taken it all out and taken a really critical look at it.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Right. Now you write in the book, \u201cWe\u2019ve accepted mediocrity in ourselves and in our friendships for far too long.\u201d And I can imagine people doing an audit like this, and I did it in my head. And you discover, as you described in the closet, these things that\u2014it\u2019s easy if you\u2019re like, this is a big yes. And it\u2019s also easy or easier if it\u2019s a clear no. But then you have this large, mediocre category. And it\u2019s not that obvious what to do about it.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EF: <\/b>Right. Yes. Exactly. Totally. For me, I think just the unwrapping, the exposing of the mediocrity is half the battle. And again, you don\u2019t want to do any kind of knee-jerk, as I say, I think, something like it in the book\u2014it isn\u2019t about going through your contacts with the machete. It\u2019s not like, bah, she bores me, or whatever. It is really being thoughtful about these people. And maybe it\u2019s just about, instead of grouping everybody as your friend, grouping them\u2014certain people, depends where they are\u2014in a different category, and identifying this is a person that I\u2019m fine if I see once a year, and that is my expectation of this person. And if that expectations feels reasonable to that other person, if you either talk to them or guess that feels like that\u2019s where the rhythm is, perfect. Now you\u2019ve put that person in that category.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so, it\u2019s the exact kind of thing. I mean, at least I do that with my closet, where I\u2019m like, oh, those funny stockings that I definitely don\u2019t want to get rid of, but they sure can\u2019t hold a lot of real estate, because I\u2019m going to use them maybe once a year for a holiday party. And so I put them away in the closet. I know they\u2019re there, I\u2019m conscious of that relationship, but I\u2019m not spending a ton of time on it. And I think just the act of organizing yourself in that way mentally frees up a lot of energy. It\u2019s energy that then you can give to people that you\u2019ve identified, like, wow, I still really feel great about this person, but because I don\u2019t see her all the time, when we do get together, we spend so much time catching up on kind of life admin stuff as opposed to really connecting. I\u2019m going to use some of the energy that I freed up just putting other friends in the right kind of categories. I\u2019m going to use that energy and really say, I\u2019m going to make a bigger effort to see this person, instead of every six months, I want to see this person once a month. I\u2019m going to make that effort.<\/span><\/p>\n

And instead of then having to catch up on like life admin stuff, you can really connect and say, \u201cWhat\u2019s going on for you?\u201d and hang out with that person in a real way, as opposed to like, I\u2019ve just got a limited amount of time and a limited, limited amount of energy. And so, I\u2019ve got an hour for you every six months. I think to get the most out of these relationships, the ones that are really worth fostering, you have to make the commitment and the time commitment. And that\u2019s one of the hardest things to do. Because when life gets busier, when life gets crazy, it feels like, at least for me, the first thing I would do in my old life is like, oh, drink with a friend? That\u2019s out because I\u2019ve got da, da, da, da, da. And that is, I feel, a mistake.<\/span><\/p>\n

I feel now, after I\u2019ve done this work and this experiment, it\u2019s like, no, no, no, no. That\u2019s not going to be my default setting, because it\u2019s not just about seeing a friend and having fun. This is a chance to rejuvenate. This is a chance to connect, this is a chance to fill up my coffers again. So that won\u2019t be the first thing that comes off my list. I want to really look and say, is there another way I can find the time for this person, because I consciously made the commitment to this relationship. We\u2019ve renewed the vows of this relationship.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Yes, I want to talk to you about that a little bit more. Because I imagine you\u2019re a really busy person. You\u2019re a mom.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EF: <\/b>Very busy.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> You\u2019re a digital entrepreneur, you\u2019re just launching this book now, a lot going on. As someone who\u2019s also a busy person, and also, I don\u2019t know about you, but I\u2019m very introverted.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EF: <\/b>I\u2019m very introverted.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> So that\u2019s another thing that I wanted to ask you about. In general, I don\u2019t get energy from people.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EF: <\/b>Right, right, right.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> I get energy from being alone and being with animals and trees and things like that, but not humans talking. And so, given busy person, introverted, no, I\u2019m not going to reach out. Even though with certain people, it is nourishing. So how do you get through that and say, oh, this is really worth it?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EF: <\/b>Well, I think that\u2019s the thing. And I think you hit on a really great part. I talked about this in the book. The first thing is to know yourself and to really understand who you are, what you\u2019re made of, and kind of what your profile is. Because as an introvert like you are, you know that you have probably very firm boundaries around how you\u2019re going to spend your time and with whom. Because you, like me, I\u2019m totally depleted when I see a lot of people or there\u2019s a lot of action externally, outside of the house.\u00a0 So I feel much better when I\u2019m in my house and calm and quiet.<\/span><\/p>\n

So that\u2019s the first part, it\u2019s just knowing. Because I feel a lot of people say, I\u2019m an introvert, I\u2019m an extrovert, but don\u2019t really understand how that then metabolizes in their life and how that plays out. So, I think it\u2019s important to know, are you somebody that needs the attention in a good way, thrives on the energy of other people, or are you somebody that needs a lot of downtime and self-reflection? So that\u2019s the first thing. The thing with introverts is, though, I find that a lot of them will still have friends. I mean, this is true of me even today, constantly asking me to do things. So, then I\u2019m put in this position where I have to say, turn them down, turn them down, which doesn\u2019t feel good either.<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s about managing. And so, if you have that under control, if people know that about you and they know, well, I\u2019m not going to invite Tami to this dinner, because even though we feel we\u2019re very fond of one another, she\u2019s going probably say no, and I don\u2019t want to be in the position where I\u2019m constantly getting rejected. I think in that case, that\u2019s when it\u2019s important to really pay attention. But even if you\u2019re an introvert, I do think, I mean, at least all the science that I looked at that physiologically, psychologically, from a stress perspective, engagement with other humans and companionship is very important. And it doesn\u2019t have to be a bajillion people. For an introvert, maybe it\u2019s one or two, right? But it has to be kind of consistent, and there has to be a kind of omnipresent feeling that you have these relationships that are valuable in your life.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so again, whatever number you land on, only you can answer what the right number is. But there is a number, I would say. And look, just you knowing that you love interacting with dogs and nature is great, but that is probably 50 steps ahead of most people that I talked to. They\u2019re completely unaware of what makes them tick and what makes them happy. It\u2019s a lot of people out there with wheels spinning, right? So just to get down to OK, let\u2019s talk about you. This is a book about friendship, but let\u2019s talk about you. This is the most important starting point. So, that kind of self-work is crucial to being a good friend of any kind, is to be a good friend to yourself and understand what you\u2019re made of and what you need. Because only then can you communicate that to others.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Now, this other point that you brought up had to do with having a certain kind of intentionality with our friends, like, this is someone I really value, so I\u2019m going to work on this relationship. I\u2019m going to invest in this friendship. And one of the things you point out is that we\u2019re very comfortable knowing that our intimate relationship is going to take work. We\u2019re going to have to go through all kinds of hard stuff.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EF: <\/b>Totally.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> It\u2019s the crucible, greatest spiritual work there is, whatever. And people have the sense, too, that parenting is going to be tough. But I think there\u2019s an idea, and I think I\u2019ve had this idea that friendship should be my easy refuge. I shouldn\u2019t have to work on it, I shouldn\u2019t have to be intentional about it. It should just like magically kind of happen. But what you\u2019re saying is, why won\u2019t we work on friendship the same way we work on these other relationships in our lives?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EF: <\/b>Right. Yes, exactly. And that\u2019s kind of why I say, when I talk about us doing friendships in a mediocre way, is that there is such a lower expectation or higher, I guess, expectation, and these should just be kind of flawless, floaty relationships that give, give, give, and never ask anything of us. And that is not real, that\u2019s not part of the human spectrum, right? I mean, nothing can just be all good. Even all good would become bad at a certain point, because you need that kind of <\/span>yin<\/span><\/i> to the <\/span>yang<\/span><\/i>.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

And I think humans are complex, challenging people who, if you\u2019re doing things right, are constantly evolving, right? And with that change comes friction, it comes in relationship. If you\u2019re having a real relationship, there are going to be times when you don\u2019t agree with somebody. Or if somebody has hurt your feelings, or you just don\u2019t feel like you\u2019re jiving and yet I don\u2019t feel like there\u2019s any kind of language or any kind of blueprint for how you kind of navigate through these relationships.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so, by understanding that conflict will be part of them, we kind of like, this is weird. I\u2019m not dating this person. So why am I going to say I have these expectations and stuff? It feels weird, but at the same time, if you want a really rich, fruitful relationship, the only way to get there is to be real, and then to deal with the fallout from being real with people. And I think by then also, if you can\u2019t manage the conflicts, you start to understand, OK, this might not be the right relationship for me any longer. So, these are really good guideposts when you come up against conflict.<\/span><\/p>\n

And I think especially for women, it\u2019s just much more difficult to say what you want and say getting through conflicts, the relationship becomes stronger, or [say] what you need and demand that you get it. And especially, then, from another woman, it just becomes a very complex thing. And I don\u2019t want to generalize, but when I looked around at my relationships with my male friends, or when I look at my brother\u2019s male friendships, conflict happens all the time, but not in a bad way. So, when I\u2019m dealing with some of my guy friends, if they irritate me, I just say it. I say, \u201cThat\u2019s not cool. Stop doing that.\u201d They either go, \u201cWhoa, I didn\u2019t realize that.\u201d Or \u201cNo, actually, this is why I\u2019m doing it.\u201d And we just kind of get through it and there\u2019s nothing really still hanging. The wheels aren\u2019t still spinning about like, \u201cI wonder what he meant by that.\u201d It\u2019s just kind of like addressed and we move on.<\/span><\/p>\n

And yet, when I was looking back at my female friendships, I just saw how many times I talked myself out of saying when something was bothering me or upsetting me. I\u2019d spin all these different narratives of what could happen or what she could be thinking or what this might look like, if I say it like this? There\u2019s all this other stuff that takes so much energy, as opposed to just saying, \u201cHey, this is the way I feel. And I wanted to share that with you because it\u2019s important, and you need to hear this.\u201d And there\u2019s such a clear way, I think, to get the other side of conflict. We just need to start talking about it and looking at these relationships, as you said, in a different way than rather well, friendships should just kind of be. And if we want to get the most out of them, we really have to be active in that.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Now, you bring up this notion that I\u2019ve heard about from the world of couples therapy, where rupture and repair is really valuable. We have to be willing to do that for our intimate relationships to grow stronger. How do we apply that to friendship? And importantly, what are the skills? What are the skills we need to do that with a friend?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EF: <\/b>Right. So yes, I am also an associate psychotherapist, so there are certainly some ideas from couples therapy and just therapy in general in the book. And rupture and repair, I think, is one of the most important things in therapy. And usually, that means that the client or the patient has some sort of conflict with the therapist. So, the therapist has let them down or said something that they felt was inappropriate or whatever. And the idea is that if you can work through that and say what you really mean and say, \u201cYou know, you hurt me and this is a problem for me, and here\u2019s why\u201d \u2014that\u2019s actually an opportunity in therapy, because then you can work through that conflict together and come out on the other side much stronger. And I truly believe the same thing should apply within friendships.<\/span><\/p>\n

So, I think one of the things that\u2014even in therapy, how that would have to work is that the client or the patient has to, at some point, either allude to or say directly, I\u2019m having a problem with you and here\u2019s why. Or their behavior has to be such where the therapist, if they\u2019re paying attention says, \u201cOK, something shifted here. What\u2019s going on?\u201d And then ultimately, that client or patient has to be honest and say, \u201cThis is what you did and this is why I\u2019m upset and this is what\u2019s really bothering me.\u201d And this exact same thing is true, I think, in friendship. The starting point is realizing you\u2019re upset and being able to communicate that in a clearer way to the other person, and then have them bounce off that and take it from there.<\/span><\/p>\n

But the idea is to not run from conflict, because when you\u2019re running from conflict or pushing it down, you\u2019re either not being true to your feelings\u2014but what can often happen is, that\u2019s when you start to become numb and indifferent to the relationship. And this doesn\u2019t happen in one fell swoop. It\u2019s the little incremental things that build distance and distance and distance, because what you\u2019re doing by pushing your feelings down and not addressing them, it\u2019s kind of self-numbing. The problem with that is then you become numb to the good stuff as well as the bad. And that\u2019s when the divide becomes bigger and bigger and bigger. Or you push it down, you push it down, push it down, push it down, and then it comes out in a way that\u2019s not controlled. And then oftentimes, something that is kind of small to begin with becomes this big thing because you\u2019ve been repressing this thing and then it comes out and it\u2019s like, \u201cAnd you did this.\u201d And the person doesn\u2019t understand why you\u2019re so upset because the reaction does not match that the infraction.<\/span><\/p>\n

So, the best way, and it\u2019s not easy\u2014I talked about an experiment I did in my own relationship in the book. I had this problem with this friend who was constantly late. And in Los Angeles, that\u2019s kind of a thing because there\u2019s so much driving, but it was only to a certain point and this person was chronically late. I loved everything else about her, but this thing, instead of me just addressing it, became this big thing for me. Every time we would meet, I would start, just be bubbling up, watching my clock. \u201cShe\u2019s five minutes late. She\u2019s ten minutes late.\u201d And so, when it did finally come out, and I talked about this in the book, it felt like she could not understand what was going on because I was just so infuriated.<\/span><\/p>\n

And it was just the result of a buildup of months and months, if not probably years of me just getting really, really upset that this person was always late, and I felt so disrespected. But instead of just bringing it up at the time, and saying, \u201cHey, listen, I really love you, and I really respect and want this friendship, but this is a need for me. You cannot show up 30 minutes late. This is really upsetting to me.\u201d Instead of being frank about it at that time, I let it build up and then it was a real problem when I did bring it up, because she was very caught off guard.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> So, it didn\u2019t go well?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EF: <\/b>In the end, it did. But it felt like it was coming off the rails for most of the thing, because we spent a lot of time debating or talking about my reaction as opposed to the being late. So, I started to feel pretty attacked, because I was like, \u201cHow are we talking about me right now?\u201d Anyway, but we got it back on track. But the point of that is, that whole thing is unnecessary and punctuality is a big thing to me, but it doesn\u2019t need to be like this big, growing resentment against someone I otherwise really appreciate and respect and like in my life.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> I can think of so many difficult conversations that friendships need to go through. And I told you that I have this residual guilt and terrible feeling about how to break up with your friends in the wrong way. And I think the conversation I didn\u2019t know how to have is, \u201cI don\u2019t want to spend a lot of time with you. I just want to see you like once a year.\u201d And I didn\u2019t know how to say that to someone. And I still don\u2019t really know how to say that to someone. How do you say that kind of thing to someone?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EF: <\/b>Right. Well, I would say in that example, I would start this out, I mean, if this is a person that generally you like, and generally you value and respect, so it\u2019s not a case of you\u2019ve been wronged or they\u2019re doing something.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Nothing like that.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EF: <\/b>I would just have a conversation about expectations and say, \u201cI really like you. I really value you. I want to be connected to you. But where I\u2019m at, I just want to manage the expectation that I would love to see you.\u201d I don\u2019t know if you want to be so literal as once a year, but say like, \u201cI just want to be clear where I\u2019m at and expectations, and I hope\u00a0\u2026\u201d Hold on, I need another piece of information. Sorry, I got to back up. So, with this person, are they constantly trying to have plans with you?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EF: <\/b>OK. So that\u2019s all right.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> And also, it\u2019s a historic friendship. This is from a previous time in my life. And it\u2019s a friendship that had a level of closeness, but there was a feeling as we got involved with different marriage partners that I just felt there wasn\u2019t really the same kind of draw.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EF: <\/b>Connection. Right, right.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Yes. The magnetism kind of faded and it felt more obligatory, and then I disappeared.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EF: <\/b>OK. And he or she keeps trying to \u2026?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> For a period, but then I, to use the contemporary word, \u201cghosted\u201d the person, yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EF: <\/b>So, are you asking what you should have done differently? Or do want that person back?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> I don\u2019t necessarily really want the relationship back because I\u2019m so protective over my time and I\u2019m not trying to make this overly focused on me.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EF: <\/b>No, no.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> I\u2019m trying to ask a question that I think may come up for a lot of people I think, and also because it, I carry it as a wound. And I think if I\u2019d handled it differently, there wouldn\u2019t be that sense of that wound still being there. But it\u2019s how you change the intimacy level in a friendship when it\u2019s no longer nourishing you?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EF: <\/b>I then would\u2026just exactly what you just said, I would say, and I don\u2019t know if this is in your case, because I just don\u2019t know the rhythm of the relationship. If this is a phone call or if this is an email, either is better than ghosting in my opinion, unless you think that the other person just absolutely cannot handle it would be shattered to receive this information. But generally, that\u2019s just not true of people. So, in this case, I would probably write an email and say everything that you just said, which is, \u201cYou know, you are a very, very valuable person to me for a long, long time. Our lives have gone in different courses, different marriage partners, whatever. And as such, I feel like there is a chasm that has grown between us. But that is not to say that I do not respect the time that we\u2019ve had together. Just to manage expectations moving forward that \u2026.\u201d Hold on, are you actually going to send this?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> I\u2019m not sure yet.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EF: <\/b>OK. So, I think the important thing is that you will always carry the bulk of the relationship very fondly in your heart, many lessons learned. I just want to be upfront with you, because of the way our lives have evolved, I feel like we have separated in a way that makes me feel anxious or less inclined to keep up the rhythm of the friendship. And the more that I tried to do that, the more I start to feel angst or resentment. And so, I feel I owe it to you to let you know that well, this is certainly not a thing where it\u2019s like, I\u2019m not friends with this person. I just want to manage the expectation that I would love to see you every so often. But I think we need to adjust the cadence of the friendship so your feelings don\u2019t get hurt and so that I don\u2019t feel bad. It\u2019s important for me to let you know how important you have been in my life, but times have changed.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Well, let me ask you a general question. What do you feel about the whole category of kind of making amends when it comes to previous friendships?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EF: <\/b>In the sense of you get back together with that person or you apologize?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Yes. You apologize, confess, share more.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EF: <\/b>I think anytime that you can have honesty and clarity and kind of speak your truth, and I think that while that might be painful to some people, as for so many people that I interviewed for the book, who had stories where they had been ghosted, the constant theme was, and I\u2019m still thinking about it today. What happened? What did I do? And so, these questions, again, if we want to talk about bringing it back to what we were saying right at the beginning, about this energy. We don\u2019t really understand because we\u2019re not thinking about this stuff all the time. But how quickly, when they started talking about it and then they\u2019re right back in it. And the hard drive is still spinning, we just don\u2019t know it.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

And so, in terms of taking back some of the energy, I think it\u2019s great to number one, reveal these things. And number two, I think it\u2019s an invaluable gift, even if it\u2019s hard or difficult or whatever, to make amends, to have clarity, to be honest, because so many people\u2014even though on a day to day basis, aren\u2019t like, \u201cI wonder what happened there?\u201d The second you tap into it, it\u2019s a lot. It went nowhere. At least with the women that I interviewed, the people that had been ghosted, they got back into the emotionality and it was like they were almost reliving it real time. So, I think that kind of clarity, even if I think about them receiving an email, or a call, I feel like they would be, \u201cOh, OK.\u201d And could have some closure on something.<\/span><\/p>\n

And I think for the person that is sending the email or making the amends, it\u2019s a great teachable moment, a great learning moment. I think you\u2019ve done a service to the relationship. That relationship is not still existing, but I think that\u2019s paying homage to the relationship. I think even if the message you\u2019re delivering is bittersweet, I think the guiding energy there is respect for what you once had.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> All right. Thank you. Thank you, Erin. OK. In describing your new book, you write, \u201cThe essence of this book is a love letter to the relationships that have the potential to be foundational and enduring and endearing, if we do them right.\u201d And I wanted to know more what you mean by that, \u201cif we do them right.\u201d What does it mean to do these friendships that we really want to invest in \u201cright\u201d?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EF: <\/b>Yes. Well, I think it means first of all, as I said a little bit before the starting point of doing friendship right, is really understanding who you are and where you are and what you need and what you want. That\u2019s the first move you can make to have any relationship kind of flow or provide value. And then, the second thing is to, I think one of the biggest things that I\u2019m seeing now is just how distracted we are. There\u2019s so much chaos and noise, right? And so, making the choice to be present with the people you\u2019ve identified who really matter and are meaningful to you. It\u2019s better to schedule 30 minutes with somebody and not have your phone in the mix and just connect, than have a two-hour drinks, dinner, but you\u2019re scrolling through your phone, you\u2019re talking to seven different people.<\/span><\/p>\n

So, I think being really intentional and really, really listening, really paying attention, not to just what being said, but the nonverbal cues, and really leaning in to the camaraderie that can come with friendship. And I think, just making choices of this person and this relationship and this relationship and this relationship, in and of itself is such a powerful move, as opposed to\u2014I feel friendships, we just let happen to us. Again, because we don\u2019t take ownership, because we don\u2019t delve into the conflict, to the real depths of what they can be. They\u2019re just kind of things washing over us. And I think to do friendship right we have to be as active and as intentional as we can in them.<\/span><\/p>\n

And by doing that, then necessarily, you can\u2019t have 100 friends, just that core group of friends. So, you\u2019ve got to be really aware, intentional in making choices around who you want in life. And that is so empowering. So, that\u2019s what I would say about doing friendship right. And then, what you need from those relationships and what you\u2019re giving, that\u2019s very personal to you and then the other person in that relationship. I think the starting point is yourself. And then the second point is just to take action, make choices, strip the chaos away when you\u2019re interacting with these friendships, because that\u2019s where you can really get to the juice, the heart, the gold, the magic, whatever. But underneath that surface of all my friends is a real, I think, pot of gold.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> In the book, you include a friend questionnaire that you can go through with your friends as a way to talk and dialogue deeper about your friendship. And here was one of the, I thought, fall-off-your-chair laugh moments for me right before you get to the questionnaire: \u201cMy advice is to do this and then go out for a drink, not the other way around.\u201d I thought that was really funny. I was imagining myself drinking first. This not going to go well. But you have these questions to talk about. And I thought I\u2019d just bring up a couple because I like that.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EF: <\/b>Sure.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> \u201cWhen was the last time I irritated you and you didn\u2019t say anything? And why didn\u2019t you say anything?\u201d And I thought, oh my goodness. If I were really to answer that correctly, and then who knows what I would hear back? So tell me, have you done this with friends and how did it work?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EF: <\/b>What was so funny is that\u2014so I interviewed all these people for the book, some friends, some experts, this whole group. And right as I was coming to the end of writing the book, I realized I hadn\u2019t interviewed or talked to my real best friend, Sophie. And so I thought, you know what, I\u2019m going to do this with Sophie. And so we kind of, again, it was real-time learnings on the spot, right? I came up with these ideas. She came over to my house and she kind of plops down, she was eight-and-a-half months pregnant. And funny enough, we had kind of a tense moment, I want to say four or five months before. It did not involve me directly. It involved\u2014she and my husband got into a little thing, whatever. And they both immediately called me and I kind of was in the middle of writing my thesis actually. And I was like, \u201cI\u2019m not going to be a part of this for even one second. Figure it out yourself.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

And so, we had a little dust off and things were tense for maybe a week after that and then we never really talked about it. And I thought that was fine, because I had said clearly I don\u2019t want to have anything to do with this. But so, when we sat down to do this questionnaire, and I\u2019d kind of forgotten about that thing that happened. When that question came up\u2014when was the last time I did or said something that irritated you, and you didn\u2019t say anything, and why not? That\u2019s what she brought up. And I was like, and we went into this whole thing about that thing that had happened and it was unbelievable because it revealed so, so much.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s just unbelievable when you sweep something under the rug, how much there can be beneath it. And I was so thankful that we sat down and talked about this, because we really got to the bottom of some stuff. And I felt so warm and fuzzy when we finished doing it. I mean, we obviously worked through that conflict. But I felt so reinvigorated by the relationship. I felt a great sense of love for her. These are all great things, right? These are great things to feel, especially in the middle of a crappy pandemic. But yes, it was tense. It got a little tense, I was sweating.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> When I read these questions, I was sweating. And there\u2019s a couple of them\u2014\u201cAre there subjects you feel like you just can\u2019t discuss with me?\u201d Oh, yes. \u201cIs there anything about you that I don\u2019t know that you want me to know?\u201d I mean, to answer these questions, you have to really take a lot of time and space, and then be willing to share in a very deep way.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EF: <\/b>Yes, totally.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> \u201cIs there anything you need or want from me that you\u2019re not getting?\u201d I don\u2019t know if I want to ask my friends that? Are you kidding me? They\u2019re going to have a list. Do I want to hear that? Is there anything you need or want from me that you\u2019re not getting? Whoa. Yes, what I realized is that you\u2019re looking for a kind of, this is really a depth of relationship that you\u2019re saying that\u2019s possible for people in their friendships, that you can go this deep.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EF: <\/b>Right. Totally. And again, you\u2019re not going to do this with your casual friend. This is for like that core, your kind of ride-or-die, two or three people. It depends how introverted or extroverted you are, but that number is going to be pretty small. And so yes, I do think it\u2019s possible. And I do think it\u2019s worthy. And as and as I said, I think just doing it with my own best friend\u2014and again, we are fairly conflict free. So, it\u2019s not like this was a really loaded situation where we\u2019re walking into this thing, let\u2019s sit down and talk about this, we\u2019ve got a lot of built up resentments. This is a relationship that\u2019s going pretty, pretty good, except the odd dustup here and there.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

But it was really revealing and I think what I would say about it the most, is just the thought that we would be so honest and vulnerable. The answers are important, but it is the connection, when you\u2019re being that honest with somebody that at the end of it, that\u2019s the only thing. That\u2019s what I was left with, feeling this energy from the connection of just really going there with somebody that you care about and love. And I think that\u2019s where you want to get. I mean, it can be uncomfortable, but it also can be great. And I think that\u2019s where you want to go to tap in to these friendships to really make them mean something.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Yes. Yes. Just to conclude, Erin. When you imagine the tens of thousands of humans who will be reading <\/span>How to Break Up with your Friends<\/span><\/i>: <\/span>Finding Meaning, Connection, and Boundaries in Modern Friendships<\/span><\/i>. What are the most important things that you want people to get out of the book?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EF: <\/b>I think probably\u2014and I would say this has maybe even true of my first book\u2014this idea of really, at a granular level, getting to a deeper understanding of who you are. I think this is where all the richness lies. I think this is how you tap in to your creativity. I think this is how you fill up your energy\u2014this deeper understanding of who you are and then understanding how much more\u00a0 profound that can be when you connect with people in an intentional, meaningful way.<\/span><\/p>\n

And I think, again, there is such freedom and there are so few boundaries on what friendships can be, as opposed to a familial relationship or a romantic relationship. There\u2019s so much opportunity here that it is worth exploring. And I think the more you reveal and the more you connect with others, the more you reveal about yourself and connect to yourself.<\/span><\/p>\n

Even though this is a book about friendship, it is still fundamentally a book about understanding and uncovering deeper parts of who you are and making greater sense of meaning in your own life, and then being able to impart that and share that with people as you go deeper into who you are.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> I\u2019ve been speaking with Erin Falconer. She\u2019s the author of the new book with Sounds True, <\/span>How to Break Up with Your Friends:<\/span><\/i> Finding Meaning, Connection, and Boundaries in Modern Friendships<\/span><\/i>. And when you\u2019re doing that comedy thing, Erin, shoot me a note. Shoot me a note.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EF: <\/b>I\u2019ll invite you.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> All right, very good. Thank you so much.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Thanks for listening to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>. You can read a full transcript of today\u2019s interview at resources2.soundstrue.com\/podcast. That\u2019s resources2.soundstrue.com\/podcast. If you\u2019re interested, hit the subscribe button in your podcast app. And if you feel inspired, head to iTunes and leave <\/span>Insights at the Edge <\/span><\/i>a review. I absolutely love getting your feedback and being connected. Sounds True: waking up the world.<\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"template":"","meta":{"_expiration-date-status":"","_expiration-date":0,"_expiration-date-type":"","_expiration-date-categories":[],"_expiration-date-options":[]},"class_list":["post-19389","transcript","type-transcript","status-publish","hentry"],"yoast_head":"\nA Love Letter To Friendships And How To Break Up With Med...<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with A Love Letter To Friendships And How To Break Up With Mediocre Friends. 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