{"id":19502,"date":"2022-03-21T13:35:37","date_gmt":"2022-03-21T19:35:37","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?post_type=transcript&p=19502"},"modified":"2022-03-30T09:53:12","modified_gmt":"2022-03-30T15:53:12","slug":"giving-your-heart-over-to-real-change","status":"publish","type":"transcript","link":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/giving-your-heart-over-to-real-change\/","title":{"rendered":"Giving Your Heart Over to Real Change"},"content":{"rendered":"
\"image_print\"Print Transcript<\/span><\/a><\/div>

Tami Simon: <\/b>You\u2019re listening to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>. Today, my guest is Sharon Salzberg. Sharon is a beloved meditation teacher and a New York Times bestselling author. She\u2019s the co-founder of the Insight Meditation Society in Barre, Massachusetts, the host of the <\/span>Metta<\/span><\/i> podcast. And she\u2019s created several audio meditation guides and courses with Sounds True, along with being a wisdom teacher, featured as part of Sounds True\u2019s <\/span>Inner MBA<\/span><\/i> program, where she teaches on loving-kindness at work.<\/span><\/p>\n

For Sharon, the practice of meditation and inner inquiry are deeply connected to working on real change in the world. Here, she talks about what it means to wholly give our hearts to what we care the most about and actions we can take right now. Here\u2019s a whole lot of wisdom from Sharon Salzberg.<\/span><\/p>\n

Sharon, I\u2019m so happy to have this chance to talk to you about your book that came out a couple of years ago, <\/span>Real Change: Mindfulness to Heal Ourselves and the World<\/span><\/i>. I think real change is on the hearts of many, many people right about now. Tell me a little bit for you what the precursors were, what was the inspiration to write <\/span>Real Change<\/span><\/i>?<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

Sharon Salzberg: <\/b>I think it came largely from two groups that I\u2019ve felt very close to, that I often work with, teaching meditation. One was what we call caregivers. It\u2019s people who care for people or animals or whatever\u2014people who are often on the frontlines of suffering and bearing a burden that the rest of us are nicely avoiding in some way and often don\u2019t even want to look at or acknowledge; and I just had such tremendous admiration for these people.<\/span><\/p>\n

They range, the people I got to be with, from domestic violence shelter workers, to hospice nurses, to international humanitarian aid workers, to parents, to people taking care of their parents, and to managers who were actually sort of caregiving their staff. Or even people who in friendships and relationships tend to take that role, the giver, the person who\u2019s offering [and] sometimes having a hard time receiving. I just really felt close to these people.<\/span><\/p>\n

I felt, well, these particular techniques, these methods of meditation practice have supported me all these years and so many of the projects I was involved in were seeing if they could be of support to others in that kind of high-stress work.<\/span><\/p>\n

The other people were just kind of the people who would come to learn meditation. And I saw progression very genuinely through the years, of how doing any kind of meditation, introspection, contemplative practice would really open people\u2019s hearts, and they would genuinely become kinder and more compassionate.<\/span><\/p>\n

The example I use all the time: people would say to me things like \u201cI was out on the street, I was taking a walk, and somebody came up to me and asked me for some money. And I gave them a dollar, because that\u2019s my habit. I just always give a dollar. But it was the first time I ever looked that person in the eye and realized that was a human being, just like me.\u201d And I\u2019ve heard some iteration of that story over and over again.<\/span><\/p>\n

But I also saw those people not taking another step and maybe reflecting like, \u201cWhat\u2019s the housing policy in the city I live in?\u201d If there\u2019s so many people living on the streets, or what does the system look like that\u2019s supposed to be supporting people helping them get off the streets?<\/span><\/p>\n

The human relationship was growing, but not that sense of kind of a larger view of society and how change can really happen. And so, it was both those groups of people that I thought, \u201cWell, here\u2019s the book.\u201d And I was very passionate about writing it.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>That comes through\u2014I have to say, of all your books, I\u2019m going to nominate <\/span>Real Change<\/span><\/i>. I\u2019m not going to vote right now. I think it might be my favorite of all of your books.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

SS: <\/b>Well, thank you. I mean, it would be really sad if the first was the favorite. It was all downhill from then.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>That\u2019s right. No.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

SS: <\/b>Although I\u2019ve done some for you. They were really good, too.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I know, I know. Your books keep getting better and better. OK, I pulled out five themes from the book that I thought we could talk about, that were particularly meaningful to me and that are really, in many ways, kind of the backbone of the book.<\/span><\/p>\n

The first one has to do with what you call the stirring of agency. I wanted to start there for that person who\u2019s listening, who says, \u201cI don\u2019t feel that powerful in the world today. I don\u2019t feel like I have that much agency in the world today. It\u2019s great to talk about change makers. There\u2019s some mythic other person over there. I\u2019m kind of flat out right now. I feel overwhelmed.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

SS: <\/b>Well, I think it\u2019s such a common feeling, and it\u2019s episodic, too. I mean, as you and I speak, I think it\u2019s really high, like the world just seems again to be falling apart. And one of the ironies about this book, <\/span>Real Change<\/span><\/i>, was it came out in the middle\u2014not even the middle, kind at the beginning of the pandemic.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

SS: <\/b>When everything was sort of lending itself to the feeling of shut down and can\u2019t do anything, and as they say, in the book, one of my icons in life is the Statue of Liberty. What I hadn\u2019t really realized so much until working on the book was that she\u2019s a woman on the move. She\u2019s in mid stride. One of her legs is halfway up\u2014one of her feet is halfway up. And that symbolizes a lot to me that, even getting to the place where she, as an icon is representing welcome, like \u201cYou have a home here, even you that no one else wants, even you can have a home here.\u201d But she\u2019s doing, she\u2019s active.<\/span><\/p>\n

And that reminds me over and over again to do the small thing that\u2019s in front of me. It seems like nothing, seems like nothing could ever happen, but it matters. And I think it\u2019s really significant. I think we do have agency. We can rewrite the story of our day, so that it represents our values. Instead of at work, for example, only being interested in the sale or whatever the metric is also being interested in how might that person have felt in conversation with me? What am I really relaying here?<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>What\u2019s interesting is when you talk about this stirring of agency and being mid stride, you talk about our day, today, the small things. And I think sometimes when we feel hopeless, or whatever, it\u2019s like, we\u2019re in some bigger, huge story that we\u2019ve created instead of what\u2019s right in front of us. So, it\u2019s interesting to me that you brought it back down to what\u2019s right in front of us.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

SS: <\/b>No, I mean, it\u2019s just real, I mean, speaking of the word \u201creal,\u201d which is my perpetual book title these days, <\/span>Real<\/span><\/i> this or <\/span>Real<\/span><\/i> that. I think that\u2019s a crucial distinction because we can all be in admiration of some way of life we will never attain or think of it as something relevant in days of old when saints walked. \u201cOK, but not for me.\u201d And the most important thing of all was that it be real\u2014our values, the way we live, the choices that we get to make, that it really be coherent.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>OK. So, if \u201creal\u201d is your word right now, what does it mean to you? What does \u201creal,\u201d that word, mean to you?<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

SS: <\/b>It means whole or integrated to me, that we\u2019re not sort of affecting a persona that isn\u2019t going deep in any way and that we\u2019re not lost [in the] mindless perfectionism that is so much a part of structure of society\u2014so that we\u2019re never really working with what is; we\u2019re just limiting ourselves for what isn\u2019t.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>You\u2019re right about how the Statue of Liberty is this image that you like so much. Do you have a bunch of Statue of Liberty paraphernalia all strewn around your apartment? Is that how it goes, Sharon?<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

SS: <\/b>I do. I\u2019m actually speaking to from my house in Barre, Massachusetts. And this is not a visual medium or I\u2019d picked up the Statue of Liberty that is just behind me over there.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Right.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

SS: <\/b>There are, the green, the rubbery things often. But I was tempted for a while in New York City\u2014my apartment is on the second floor with windows out to a very busy street. And I was tempted to get a\u2014not life-size for her, but life-size for a human being\u2014replica and put it in the window, so people would go by on the second floor of a double decker bus, they would like go, \u201cOh, it\u2019s just the Statue of Liberty.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now, as a modern archetype, you\u2019ve talked about being mid stride. What else is it about the Statue of Liberty that has turned you into a collector?<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

SS: <\/b>[<\/span>Laughter<\/span><\/i>]<\/span> Collector\u2014my fine collection. Well, of course, it\u2019s the compassion and it is that sense of inclusion. It\u2019s not like \u201cEh, not you so much, go back home,\u201d but \u201cEven you, and if not for your sake, for the sake of your children, for the sake of your lineage, come, you can have a home here.\u201d I think it was the most stunning statement I\u2019ve ever heard in my life. Like, \u201cYes, you can belong too, even you.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>OK. The second theme that I\u2019d like to highlight: transforming anger to courage. And you talk about how we can harness the energy of anger. I want, if you would Sharon, [you to] talk directly to that person who right now is feeling quite a bit of anger at something that\u2019s going on in the world. How do they harness that energy?<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

SS: <\/b>Well, part of what I wrote about and what I tried to write about throughout, was really people, because they\u2019re real. And I\u2019ve learned so much from people, activists\u2014who I really equate with caregivers\u2014that I was speaking about before when I thought it was like those people, I thought, oh activists.<\/span><\/p>\n

I use a lot of references to this woman, Mallika Dutt, in that chapter, who\u2019s now a friend of mine. We met when we were just put on a panel together in some event. And she\u2019s a tremendous advocate against violence against women and has been for a long time ever since. She is Indian American. She lives part time in India. And she was in India and a friend of hers was in a car accident or something like that, and was put in the hospital\u2014where, in India, your family really comes often to take care of you. And the only beds they had open in the hospitals were in the burn unit.<\/span><\/p>\n

So, she was taking care of her friends in the burn unit. And she saw a lot of women who were there because of violence against them, either husband, their mother-in-law, something like that. And it just turned her life around. And she was so infuriated, so enraged. And what she said on this panel was, \u201cBut I don\u2019t know how to dial it down. I don\u2019t know how to turn it off.\u201d And she said, \u201cYou see it in all of our organizations, the way we speak to one another, the backbiting that\u2019s going on, the enmity [\u2026]. Sharon, I just can\u2019t go on in this way.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

So, she ended up leaving the organization, although she\u2019s still tremendous advocate. She sort of studied shamanism and she became meditator. And she\u2019s coming from everything in a very different way now. So, I think the first thing is, we have to honor what we feel. We can\u2019t sort of put ourselves down for the rage, or whatever it is, and just start honestly saying I feel what I feel.<\/span><\/p>\n

Then, to take something of an interest in the feeling, because if we have just a little bit of space\u2014like if you\u2019re meditating, let\u2019s say\u2014and the anger arises, rather than being consumed with \u201cWhat I\u2019m angry about and what I\u2019m going to do about it,\u201d and \u201cHow shameful it is that I feel it,\u201d or \u201cHow fantastic it is I feel it,\u201d it\u2019s just like \u201cWhat is anger? What do I feel in my body?\u201d And what\u2019s the movie of anger? Like just watch it play out, watch the thoughts, watch the emotions.<\/span><\/p>\n

And what we see is that it\u2019s a very complex thing, that it\u2019s not just one feeling. There\u2019s a lot of sadness in there often, a lot of grief, a lot of frustration, a lot of fear. And I think virtually always we will see there\u2019s some sense of helplessness in there. And anger is what we pick up\u2014they say this in Tibetan Buddhism. Anger is what we pick up when we feel weak because we think it\u2019s going to make us strong.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>That\u2019s a very powerful insight. Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

SS: <\/b>Yes. And the strong part of it is the energy. We\u2019re not passive. We\u2019re not complacent. We\u2019re on the move. It\u2019s like, we\u2019ve got this energy. We\u2019re stirred. That\u2019s good. But in the Buddhist psychology, they say, \u201cAnger is like a forest fire, which can burn up its own support.\u201d It can destroy the host, which is us.<\/span><\/p>\n

We try to grab the energy without all the associated tunnel vision and sense of hopelessness and all of that. And that\u2019s how we channel it. So, when I get there myself, if I\u2019m sitting and that\u2019s my experience, and I get to see that place of helplessness, that\u2019s my signal. Do just one thing. Make one call, write one letter, talk to one person, whatever. It seems like nothing, but it\u2019s the thing to do. And then, that\u2019s the beginning of that flow of energy into action.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>It\u2019s really helpful, Sharon. Can you give me an example for you of something that historically you felt really angry about and how you worked with that energy to take actions?<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

SS: <\/b>I\u2019m sure there are many. Again, the Buddhist psychology, anger and fear are considered the same mind state. Just two forms, anger being the expressive, energized, outward form. Fear being the sort of shrunken, frozen, imploding form, so I tend to get more frightened than angry overtly\u2014that would be a kind of a stronger thing. So, I have to sit with the fear and find the anger within the fear and find everything else within that.<\/span><\/p>\n

But I think that I\u2019ve sort of learned to modulate my consumption of media, for example. And I could say that I had a childhood with a great many secrets in it. And so, probably the most sort of triggering or activating kind of environment for me is one where I feel I\u2019m being lied to or there\u2019s something that I\u2019m not being told, and that my inner reality is not being supported. My inner perception of reality is not being supported by what I\u2019m told.<\/span><\/p>\n

When I watch certain politicians, for example, certain political leaders on TV, and I can tell, they\u2019re just not speaking the truth, it\u2019s just a bad environment for me. And I realized that I have to not just stay there in my experience, inner experience, but both modulate my taking in of media and deciding in what form that would be most useful for me, and also recognize that I have agency. I\u2019m an adult. I can go check things out myself; I don\u2019t have to be in the stew of what was real. That\u2019s important\u2014find out for yourself, investigate. And don\u2019t doom scroll, which is my favorite new term of the century. Don\u2019t just keep reading the same story again and again and again and again or listening to the same press conference again and again and again and again. You really have to moderate it.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>It seems to me in listening to you talk about stirring of agency in our experience, and here transforming anger, this feeling of helplessness underneath the anger\u2014so, \u201cI want to be strong\u201d\u2014that it requires a certain amount of perseverance, creative thinking, willingness to see what could I do.<\/span><\/p>\n

Is there any point of power here, any point of action I can take? And that sometimes we don\u2019t get there. Instead, we\u2019d rather just rail in our anger or talk about how helpless we feel. But you\u2019re really describing something else, which is, \u201cNo, we\u2019re actually going to make real change. We\u2019re going to find a step. Help that person that says, \u2018Sometimes when I look out, I don\u2019t see the step. I don\u2019t see the step I can take. I don\u2019t see it.\u2019\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

SS: <\/b>Well, it\u2019s an awfully hard path to do alone. I mean, that sometimes really does require a kind of community and you have to feel empowered. You don\u2019t have to join every group or every action. But kind of suss out what seems, at least for now, most where you want to put your energy.<\/span><\/p>\n

Also, there\u2019s the recognition, as sad as it is sometimes, that you can\u2019t do everything. It\u2019s funny, because I\u2019m doing my taxes right now, and going over all my charitable contributions for the last year. You can see the waves. It\u2019s like, \u201cOh, those are all refugee organizations.\u201d It\u2019s like, \u201cOh, those are all literacy organizations.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

As time went by, in different months, we just moved in different ways. And we don\u2019t necessarily have the ability to do everything at all. And so, we choose, and often that choices, I think, because we\u2019re not going to be alone in that endeavor.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Writing about transforming anger to courage, you talk about the realization you had at a certain point that some things are more than one generation fix. How did that perspective impact you and inform you? How does it inform you?<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

SS: <\/b>I think it really, certainly opens the door to a different sort of patience. It\u2019s a little bit like when I lived in Asia and the perspective was like, often, culturally, that one lifetime is a blip, like an in breath and out breath. It\u2019s like, don\u2019t be in such a hurry; it\u2019s not going to all change in such a hurry. It\u2019s a little bit like that. Standing in the Holocaust Museum in Jerusalem [\u2026] [you realize] this is not a one generation fix, or seeing some of what was happening between groups in Paris with Arab youth and Parisians.<\/span><\/p>\n

And the story that\u2019s in the book is about the cousin of a friend of mine\u2014my friend happened to be in France when I was there. And so, we were at a cousin\u2019s house talking about his antipathy towards some of that youth, and then realizing their parents were brought over here by my parents\u2019 generation with the promise of the earth. You interpreted for us and those lands, and you helped us, and we\u2019re going to take care of you. And [they] didn\u2019t take care of them at all.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so, there\u2019s tremendous betrayal and humiliation and all kinds of things. And I realized, oh, the seeds of this are not like yesterday. This didn\u2019t happen, in terms of origin, yesterday. It\u2019s going to be awhile for this.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>So, Sharon, help me understand how when you hear people say, \u201cThis is the most critical decade we\u2019ve ever been in and humanity\u2019s fate lies in the decisions we make right here in the next 10 years.\u201d Normally, I hear people talk about this in terms of climate change with that kind of intensity. And then I hear, \u201cWell, this is more than a one generation fix. The roots of these problems are so deep. It\u2019s going to take many, many, many generations to fix these things.\u201d How do you put those two things together for yourself?<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

SS: <\/b>Well, I think first of all, you have to start somewhere, even if it\u2019s going to take many generations. And don\u2019t put it off and don\u2019t think it\u2019s up to someone else. But when I was working with one of the people who runs a domestic violence shelter, she said, in terms of her own work, she said, \u201cI\u2019ve had to learn the difference between something that is critical and something that\u2019s actually an emergency.\u201d And it\u2019s like we can have urgency without panic. And realizing that it just doesn\u2019t happen.<\/span><\/p>\n

Sometimes I just say to myself, \u201cOK, what can you do? What can you do right now?\u201d And it can come down to what seems like very small things, but it\u2019s actually doing and it\u2019s that movement. And I think that\u2019s why I wrote that book <\/span>Faith<\/span><\/i> all those years ago, because, for me, faith meant getting off the sidelines right into the center of possibility. It\u2019s like instead of saying, \u201cOh, that\u2019s a great book, I\u2019ll buy it from my cousin.\u201d It\u2019s saying, \u201cI want to see what would happen for me if I tried this out.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now, Sharon, say more about this. I think most people, when they hear a word like \u201cfaith\u201d think that that\u2019s the time you kick back in the chair. And you\u2019re like, \u201cI\u2019m just going to leave it to divine intelligence to work this out.\u201d You\u2019re offering a very different perspective on faith.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

SS: <\/b>Yes. I think it is. I mean, I think it\u2019s very much in line with the Buddhist tradition where you talked about faith is offering your heart or giving over your heart. So, it\u2019s like, a verb. And it\u2019s a progression. It might start out with kind of being dazzled by somebody or a teacher or a place, just had an incredible opening of like, \u201cWow, life is so much bigger than I thought it was.\u201d But that\u2019s considered just the beginning. And there\u2019s lots of stages of verifying things to your own experience and doubting and wondering and questioning, which are considered really important.<\/span><\/p>\n

But movement is what\u2019s most essential, because otherwise, it\u2019s just admiring something from afar. It\u2019s like saying, \u201cHey, that was nice.\u201d Kind of reminds me of one of my teachers, Manindra in India, who said to me once, \u201cThe Buddha\u2019s enlightenment solved the Buddha\u2019s problem. Now you solve yours.\u201d It was perfect. It was like, \u201cOh, he thinks I can solve my problem.\u201d That movement should try rather than hang back in defeat, or say, \u201cOh, yes, next year, or whatever.\u201d That movement should try is what I was calling faith.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Giving over your heart\u2014tell me what that means? It\u2019s a very powerful phrase.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

SS: <\/b>Yes. I mean, I think it\u2019s, first of all, recognizing you have a heart, that there\u2019s a core of your being and that its offering is extremely valuable. It\u2019s not negligible, and it\u2019s powerful. And that\u2019s kind of a theme for life. I am devoted to trying to bring goodness into this world. And that\u2019s more important to me than anything. And so, I won\u2019t always succeed, but I don\u2019t actually ever completely lose touch with that understanding. Maybe I forget for a while or I get overwhelmed or exhausted or something. But it\u2019s like, \u201cAll right, that\u2019s what my life is about.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>So, I think for a lot of people, there\u2019s a sense of, I\u2019ve given over a portion of my heart to this, but I\u2019ve kept a little portion over here that\u2019s in reserve. I\u2019m not really giving it over exactly. I\u2019m just going to keeping it over here for times when I might need it for myself, something like that. What do you think about that?<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

SS: <\/b>Well, I think that\u2019s the quandary of generosity. Do we ever end up with less through giving? That\u2019s something to check out. That\u2019s the experiment. Are we depleted? Are we bereft? If so, it really wasn\u2019t generosity, or was it something else, something more manipulative with more expectation or something like that.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>OK. Let me ask you a direct question. Have you 100 percent given over your heart? And if so, to what?<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

SS: <\/b>I would say a little hard to say 100 percent. So, I\u2019ll be a little cagey around that.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I used math and everything there.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

SS: <\/b>That, in some funny way, goes back to the introduction to <\/span>Real Change<\/span><\/i>. Because I wrote the entire book pre-pandemic. I turned it in, I think it was December. It might have been early January of 2020. I went to California for a month. I came back to New York, March 2nd, and the world was seeming weird, very weird. And the book was supposed to come out in June, and they postponed it to September 2020.<\/span><\/p>\n

So, a friend of mine was reading the book to excerpt it for something, and\u2014prepublication\u2014he said, \u201cI like the book a lot, but I kept reading those examples and thinking, \u2018That\u2019s what made you anxious? Wait till you see what\u2019s coming.\u2019\u201d So, I went to the publisher, and I asked, \u201cSince you are postponing the pub date, could I write a preface to try to contextualize what I\u2019d written and what was current reality?\u201d And they said yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

The overriding question for me in trying to write the preface was, what\u2019s still true? My year looks nothing like I thought my year was going to look. I\u2019m stuck in Barre, Massachusetts, instead of New York. I\u2019m not traveling. I\u2019m not seeing anybody. It\u2019s like, expectations are shattered, people are terrified\u2014especially in New York at that point; people were really sick and dying and losing people. \u201cAnd what\u2019s still true? What am I counting on? What\u2019s holding me up? What can I rely on?\u201d That was a tremendous process in and of itself.<\/span><\/p>\n

What I used in that introduction as an example was the Buddha\u2019s kind of quirky statement, quirky in a way that hatred will never cease by hatred. Hatred will only cease by love. This is an eternal law. And the reason I considered it quirky was because this is like Mr. Impermanence. All of a sudden, he\u2019s saying this as an eternal law. And that is, of course, something to struggle with and try to understand. And there are so many situations in which I think, \u201cNot here, come on. That can\u2019t be so here, but I actually do believe it\u2019s true.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

If we\u2019re going to look for something intact in this world that\u2019s not broken by all these changing circumstances, it can be something around love and our ability actually to love. And I think it\u2019s a potential we have in any situation.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

[<\/span>Advertisement<\/span><\/i>]<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>You\u2019ve been listening to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>. In 2013, Dr. Lissa Rankin\u2019s bestselling book, <\/span>Mind Over Medicine<\/span><\/i>, ignited a revolution in the way we look at mind body healing. But when letters about miraculous healings and spontaneous remissions started pouring in from readers, she realized she still had more questions than answers. Certain that if she looked hard enough, she would discover the science behind why and how we heal, Dr. Rankin embarked on a decade-long journey, bringing her medically trained eye to healing practices from around the world. Her new book, <\/span>Sacred Medicine <\/span><\/i>is the result of that quest. You can learn more at the sacredmedicinebook.com. And now back to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

[<\/span>End of Advertisement<\/span><\/i>]<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

    \n
  1. I\u2019m going to keep going for a moment with this notion of giving over one\u2019s\u2014I\u2019m going to use the word now \u201cwhole\u201d\u2014one\u2019s whole heart. I\u2019d like to know just inside you what that feels like and what that is as a practice, if you will.<\/span><\/li>\n<\/ol>\n

    \u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

    SS: <\/b>It feels like alignment, feels like harmony. [\u2026] Everything else is sort of trying to slip around it or avoid it, or it\u2019s like hatred will never cease by hatred; hatred will only cease by love. \u201cCome on. Look at how they\u2019re behaving. You can\u2019t mean here.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

    Then, of course, there\u2019s a lot of what I might call misconception about love that weakens you. It means you\u2019re just approving. You\u2019re not taking a stand. I don\u2019t think it means any of that. But it can feel that way. So then, there\u2019s a lot of fear and a lot of division. But when I get there, it\u2019s just like, \u201cAll right, this is right.\u201d And it doesn\u2019t cost anything. That\u2019s why I said that about generosity. It\u2019s not like I\u2019m left with less.<\/span><\/p>\n

    \u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

    TS: <\/b>I noticed, as you described that giving over of our whole heart as a kind of alignment, I sat up straight; I started feeling really good. And all that happened was I sort of took in what you were saying. I\u2019m going to move on to the third theme that I\u2019d like to pull out and highlight from <\/span>Real Change<\/span><\/i>, which is moving from grief to resilience. And in reading <\/span>Real Change<\/span><\/i>, I learned a lot more about you, Sharon, and your early life than I knew previously.<\/span><\/p>\n

    I didn\u2019t know how much suffering was part of your early life. I wonder if you would be willing to share a little bit about that. And if you would, how grief in some ways formed you as a young person and even continues to inform your teaching.<\/span><\/p>\n

    \u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

    SS: <\/b>Yes. Well, actually, it\u2019s interesting you say that, because <\/span>Faith<\/span><\/i>, of course, the book is like my autobiography. And so, it\u2019s the most explicit and detailed rendition of my early life. And the audio is only available in Sounds True. So, that was really interesting.<\/span><\/p>\n

    Yes. I mean, the greatest sorrows of my life were in my childhood when my parents split up. They got divorced when I was four. My father disappeared. I lived with my mother. She died when I was nine. I went to live with my father\u2019s parents, whom I hardly knew.<\/span><\/p>\n

    My grandfather died when I was 11. My father came back. You see, he hadn\u2019t come back even when I went to live with his parents. He was really troubled and really out of it by then. And he took an overdose of sleeping pills maybe six weeks into that visit when I was 11, after his father died. And disappeared of mental health system where he lived for probably another 20 years whether in a nursing home or a hospital or VA hospital or something like that.<\/span><\/p>\n

    My family, being who they were\u2014of course, I was told it was an accident: \u201cHe forgot he had already taken the pills. He took another pill.\u201d Then when I was in college, all those years later, then I thought, \u201cWait a minute. You don\u2019t sort of accidentally have a mishap with medication and end up in a psychiatric hospital, do you?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

    I went to college when I was 16. I went to New York when I was 18. So, you can see the direct line. I was actually in my Asian philosophy courses as sophomore in college, where they were talking about the Buddha and they\u2019re talking about, of course, his tremendous emphasis on suffering, the suffering in life. For me, it translated into, \u201cYou\u2019re not so weird, you\u2019re not so different. You actually belong. This is a part of life. It\u2019s not just you.\u201d So, it was like the most liberating thing I\u2019d ever heard.<\/span><\/p>\n

    Then I heard that there were methods or techniques or practices you could do to be a lot happier. And I was going to college in Buffalo, New York. I looked around Buffalo, I did not see it anywhere. And the university had an independent study program. If you created a project they liked, you could go anywhere in the world theoretically for a year. And I created a project. I said, \u201cI want to go to India to study meditation.\u201d And they said, \u201cOK.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

    So, off I went. I left in 1970, the beginning of the fall semester. I began meditating in January of 1971. And that sense of belonging through the acknowledgement of suffering has been a theme of my life ever since because I see it everywhere, that we meet on a certain level. But it\u2019s actually at that level spoken or unspoken that we really find one another.<\/span><\/p>\n

    Of course, Dipa Ma, who was my teacher who told me to teach\u2014and that was in 1974, when I went to visit her in Kolkata, because I was coming back to the states for what I was convinced was going to be this very short visit before I went back to India for the rest of my life. She said, \u201cWhen you go back, you\u2019ll be teaching.\u201d And I said, \u201cNo, I won\u2019t.\u201d And she said, \u201cYes, you will.\u201d I said \u201cNo, I won\u2019t.\u201d And she said, \u201cYes, you will.\u201d I said, \u201cNo, I won\u2019t. That\u2019s ridiculous. I can\u2019t teach.\u201d And then she said, \u201cYou really understand suffering. That\u2019s why you should teach.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

    That was my blessing. And, of course, the funny part is, looking back she didn\u2019t say, \u201cYour realization is so vast, you should teach, or your scholarship was so extraordinary.\u201d It was like, \u201cYou really understand suffering, that\u2019s why you should teach.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

    <\/p>\n

    <\/b><\/p>\n

    TS: <\/b>OK. Let me ask you a couple questions first just quickly here. You went to college when you were 16, is that because you were like a super smarty pants or something?<\/span><\/p>\n

    \u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

    SS: <\/b>I was smart, I was determined, and also, I was in the New York City public school system where they did tend to have people skip grades.<\/span><\/p>\n

    \u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

    TS: <\/b>OK. So, here, Dipa Ma says, \u201cYou\u2019re going to teach because you understand suffering.\u201d And I\u2019m going to ask you just a really basic 101 question here, Sharon, Buddhism 101. Somebody who says, \u201cOf course I\u2019ve heard people say the Buddha said, \u2018All life is suffering.\u2019 I don\u2019t get it. I mean, sure, they\u2019re suffering, but there\u2019s a lot of things that aren\u2019t suffering. I don\u2019t get it. Why say all life is suffering? I don\u2019t get that.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

    \u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

    SS: <\/b>Right. Well, in that sense, in that quotation, it doesn\u2019t mean suffering as dreadful pain or trauma or the ways we might use the word. I mean, that is a part of life. And that is something we experience in different degrees. But there\u2019s also a kind of suffering that\u2019s not so intense and immediate. It\u2019s almost kind of like poignancy. It\u2019s like, \u201cI don\u2019t know how this happened. I am asked to enter my year of birth online and I have to scroll for an hour and a half. And don\u2019t understand\u2014where did my life go?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

    And there\u2019s even a more subtle level where it\u2019s sort of like, you have a friend and you do anything to have them suffer less. And you can\u2019t make it so. No one\u2019s invented the chip where we can implant it in someone else\u2019s brain while we\u2019re holding the remote control. And we can say, \u201cCheer up, or stop drinking.\u201d Life\u2019s not like that. And so, the kind of layers and layers and layers of subtlety to it.<\/span><\/p>\n

    \u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

    TS: <\/b>So, I\u2019ve heard this distinction between you could say avoidable suffering, suffering we don\u2019t really have to be having and suffering that\u2019s unavoidable. And I\u2019m curious what you think of that distinction and how we know in any moment in our experience. Is this avoidable? Could I avoid this? Is his secondary suffering or is this just pure real suffering?<\/span><\/p>\n

    \u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

    SS: <\/b>Well, they\u2019re all real, I think, unfortunately. They all are. But I think, yes, I think we can know. I mean, people struggle, I struggle, everyone struggles with the words trying to figure it all out. Some people, I think it was probably Stephen Levine originally who said, \u201cPain is inevitable, but suffering is optional,\u201d or it depends on how you\u2019re using the words.<\/span><\/p>\n

    And sometimes I call it as the suffering happens, it\u2019s like we feel what we feel. Or one of my favorite sayings is, \u201cSomethings just hurt.\u201d They hurt. It\u2019s not because you have a bad attitude. It\u2019s not because you need to elevate your thinking and it\u2019s not because you\u2019re resistant. Something\u2019s hurt. But what we don\u2019t need is extra suffering. I think we can tell the difference. I can tell the difference.<\/span><\/p>\n

    \u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

    TS: <\/b>That\u2019s my question. How can you tell what\u2019s extra suffering?<\/span><\/p>\n

    \u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

    SS: <\/b>Well, I sort of know my patterns so well. It\u2019s like when I have the thought, I\u2019m the only one who ever experiences this in whatever form, maybe not so elemental, but it\u2019s there. I feel isolated. I feel I\u2019m the only one. \u201cNo one can ever understand this. No one could ever conceive of what I\u2019m going through.\u201d That\u2019s an add on. That\u2019s an old, old tape or a kind of shame. \u201cI should have been able to stop this.<\/span> I\u2019ve been meditating for an hour. I\u2019ve been meditating for three weeks. I\u2019ve been meditating for 50 goddamn years. Why is this still arising?\u201d Which is also forgetting where our power really lies, which is not in the question of whether something comes up or not. It\u2019s a question of how we deal with it.<\/span><\/p>\n

    There are certain things that can just recognize that or something great happens, the wonders, beautiful, fantastic thing happens and that voice that arises in me, they\u2019ll say, \u201cSomething is going to happen again.\u201d Or \u201cIt can\u2019t be real,\u201d or whatever it is, to diminish the experience.<\/span><\/p>\n

    A question of skill is really how you relate to that voice. That\u2019s the years of training. It\u2019s like, if you say that\u2019s your inner critic, sometimes we say give it a voice, give it a wardrobe, give it a persona, give it a name, and then see how you relate to it because the relationship is everything. So, if you\u2019re that voice that says, \u201cIt\u2019s never going to happen again,\u201d can you say, \u201cHave a seat, have a cup of tea, chill. Just don\u2019t work so hard, you crazy critic, just like, be at ease.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

    \u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

    TS: <\/b>I want to dig in here a little bit and I don\u2019t want to get too bogged down in the language. However, I have worked with different teachers at Sounds True, who are very much like the point of the path is the end of suffering. And that is possible. It is possible to live without suffering at a certain point. And yet, when I hear you talk about some things just hurt, once again, I mean, maybe there\u2019s no way to avoid getting into the language of it all. Maybe what that teacher is trying to point to is, yes, there\u2019s pain, but [\u2026] you just let the heart be there. How do you see it, Sharon?<\/span><\/p>\n

    \u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

    SS: <\/b>Well, I think it\u2019s so different when we\u2019re not lost in those add-ons, that you could, I think, genuinely say it\u2019s a completely different experience, even though it\u2019s not meant or a little tinge of bitterness or something may arise, but you\u2019re not invested in it. You\u2019re not lost in it. You\u2019re not taking it to heart. It\u2019s not consuming you. That\u2019s a very different experience.<\/span><\/p>\n

    But I really take a stand on some things just hurt, because I\u2019ve seen the opposite so much where people are confounded. \u201cI\u2019ve been meditating all this time.\u201d And then they tell you some horrible thing that happened. And then, \u201cI don\u2019t understand why I\u2019m not calmer because that was horrible.\u201d You have been through a genuine tragedy. And why are you blaming yourself for feeling something about it? I\u2019ve seen a lot of that, too.<\/span><\/p>\n

    \u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

    TS: <\/b>Yes. OK. So, I have two more themes I want to touch on and then a very important topic I want to cover too. So, I\u2019m going to keep this train, this train, choo-chooing here, which is allowing joy. This really spoke to me on the path of being a real change maker. You write about how if we titrate, if we don\u2019t just stay with what\u2019s hard, that it enables us to persevere. So, I wonder if you can speak more about that and the role of joy.<\/span><\/p>\n

    \u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

    SS: <\/b>Well, I think titrating, interestingly enough, is also an element in things like trauma therapy. It\u2019s realizing that it\u2019s almost like saying, energy is a genuine commodity or resource, and that if you sort of stay with what\u2019s hard endlessly, you\u2019re going to get exhausted. And it\u2019s just not going to be the optimum environment in which to learn something or move on or develop a different relationship.<\/span><\/p>\n

    This goes back to kind of an understanding from the Buddhist teaching where he said that suffering itself is not the point. Suffering isn\u2019t redemptive. Suffering is not grace in that system. But how we relate to suffering could be and are we with what\u2019s hurting, with compassion for ourselves, for example, rather than judgment or criticism.<\/span><\/p>\n

    We need energy to do that. If you\u2019re exhausted, you\u2019re not going to get there. And so, we have to sort of balance ourselves to the best of our ability all along. And that\u2019s really important. And part of that is taking in the joy\u2014and anybody who knows activists knows how hard it is or even caregivers, the ones who care for others to sort of receive is not that easy and to sort of feel the abundance of life and the joy that\u2019s available. But if we don\u2019t do that, then it is exhausting. I mean, the day is exhausting, between everything we need to do then and the ways we kind of get beaten down and frustrated and we need some balance.<\/span><\/p>\n

    \u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

    TS: <\/b>Do you have a practice yourself that\u2019s like Sharon Salzberg\u2019s \u201cI\u2019m going to open to joy\u201d practice?<\/span><\/p>\n

    \u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

    SS: <\/b>Oh, to joy?<\/span><\/p>\n

    \u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

    TS: <\/b>Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

    \u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

    SS: <\/b>Well, I mean, both from the Buddhist point of view and being a New Yorker, it starts with what\u2019s looking at what\u2019s holding me back. \u201cThis isn\u2019t as good as it was last year,\u201d or whatever the thought is. \u201cOr this could be better,\u201d or \u201cI wish I had more time to look at the sunset, it\u2019s not fair,\u201d and being able to release those thoughts and remind myself just be here with what is good.<\/span><\/p>\n

    A lot of it has to do with simple things like sunsets or the sky, something that evokes a sense of space, not being amused by people because we\u2019re also kind of funny. Taking satisfaction, something like writing. \u201cWow, I wrote that. Look at that.\u201d Because we get so afraid\u2014me too\u2014like, \u201cOh, that\u2019s boastful or that\u2019s egoic or that\u2019s going to strengthen my ego or something like that.\u201d It\u2019s just like, relax. Enjoy it.<\/span><\/p>\n

    \u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

    TS: <\/b>Yes. OK. The fifth theme, living by the truth of interconnection. And what I wanted to ask you about with this point in terms of <\/span>Real Change <\/span><\/i>is that it feels to me that it\u2019s not that hard to intuit, to see, to appreciate our interconnection. It\u2019s not that hard.<\/span><\/p>\n

    \u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

    TS: <\/b>You use the example of looking at a tree and seeing the sky and the roots. I think it\u2019s easy to get it, let alone if you\u2019ve taken some kind of hallucinogen or something. This web of life, we\u2019re all connected. People get it. But actually living by it, translating that, especially into the structural systems that we live in and all of the lack of equity that is part of the structures of our society, this is where I\u2019m trying to understand for you how you bring it down to the earth of how you actually live your life, not as a philosophical intuition.<\/span><\/p>\n

    \u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

    SS: <\/b>Well, that\u2019s why you and I ,when we\u2019ve talked about the workplace, I\u2019ve said that my favorite question in going to teach in the workplace is, how many other people need to be doing their jobs well for you to do your job well? Because really, if it were not for the engineers, or the house cleaners, or whatever it is, our lives would not happen in such a smooth fashion.<\/span><\/p>\n

    Maybe for me, some of that came also from the work with caregivers, because they\u2019re often hidden. They\u2019re like the hidden heroes. I would look at those women\u2014often women, not exclusively, but largely women\u2014working in the domestic violence shelters and think, \u201cBoy, if they weren\u2019t doing their job, this whole society would fall down.\u201d But nobody thinks about them or pays them enough or appreciates them.<\/span><\/p>\n

    I make it a point to do that reflection. Like with Thich Nhat Hanh. Every time I saw him, I think he held up some object in the air and would do this exercise, like he would hold up a piece of paper and say, \u201cNow see the cloud.\u201d Because as you trace back, what makes this paper? It\u2019s the elements that go into it.<\/span><\/p>\n

    Or the last time I saw him, he held up a sunflower. This was in New York City. And he said, \u201cNow, see all the non-sunflower elements of the sunflower.\u201d Once he held up a string bean, and you sort of imagine the farmers planting the seed and the creatures who live in the soil and who harvested the crop, who transported it, who sold it. Suddenly you look at that string bean, it\u2019s like, half the earth is there.<\/span><\/p>\n

    I\u2019ve kind of learned to actually do that as a reflection, do that as an exercise. Especially in a non-equitable society, talking to people who are maintaining the infrastructure that I am counting on but I never think about really\u2014unless (and this is all a long time ago, because I haven\u2019t been anywhere in two years) I\u2019m on a train and suddenly, it gets stuck between DC and New York, and suddenly, the people who do the road repair and the train repair and they\u2019re very important to me, but otherwise, it\u2019s like, they\u2019re invisible.<\/span><\/p>\n

    And so, both through lovingkindness toward neutral people, and just that reflection, I really tried to remember how intricate this world is and how many people I\u2019m counting on for my happiness, for my well-being.<\/span><\/p>\n

    \u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

    TS: <\/b>OK. Now, you mentioned in the very beginning of our conversation that you wrote <\/span>Real Change <\/span><\/i>for two types of people: the caregivers; and then the second type, just a general person, that kind of person who after doing compassion practice walks out, sees a homeless person, and traditionally would have just given a dollar.<\/span> Now, looks them in the eye but then has a set of questions that says, \u201cWait a second, I\u2019m going back to my, I don\u2019t know, my really nice New York City expensive apartment, and this person isn\u2019t. And I just spent an hour meditating on our interrelatedness and our interconnection, and now, I don\u2019t know what to do with myself exactly. I think I\u2019m going to read Sharon\u2019s book.\u201d OK. But what\u2019s the deeper, structural, real-change process that this individual could start embarking on, or at least looking into inquiring? How do you see that?<\/span><\/p>\n

    \u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

    SS: <\/b>Well, I do think it\u2019s a question of inquiry. It\u2019s like learning, I want to set out to learn. I don\u2019t know anything about the housing policy of my city. I don\u2019t know anything about what happened with deinstitutionalization of mental health facilities, which used to be very big thing in my life. How many resources were ever allocated for people to live in a community as opposed to just closing down the hospital putting them on the streets?<\/span><\/p>\n

    I don\u2019t know anything about this history. You think, \u201cI want to find out. I just want to learn what is going on here. Where are my tax dollars going? Who\u2019s making these decisions? How many people vote in those elections for these local governance roles?\u201d Then see where your heart leads you or see if there\u2019s something that you do want to participate in, but it starts with even caring to know and not having it stop. It\u2019s just the level of the human-to-human connection, because that is extraordinary and it\u2019s very important. But in some ways, it\u2019s almost like the beginning.<\/span><\/p>\n

    \u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

    TS: <\/b>That caring to know, and then it seems like taking actions and engaging our analytical capacities, [\u2026] it\u2019s work. It\u2019s real work what you\u2019re describing.<\/span><\/p>\n

    \u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

    SS: <\/b>Yes. But it\u2019s almost just go deeper, look for causes and conditions to the degree you can discern them, you can find them out. One of the stories I tell in the book, it\u2019s about this conference I was at where somebody was talking about teaching literacy in Texas, in prisons, and it was like noble and amazing. These places, I mean, I\u2019ve been teaching occasionally in prison; it\u2019s not an easy place to be.<\/span><\/p>\n

    On one level, it was all great and it was all very noble. Then somebody in the audience stood up and said, \u201cI don\u2019t know how you can be doing that in Texas, and not in any way confronting the racism that\u2019s at the core of the criminal justice system there.\u201d And there was a moment that was like, \u201cOh,\u201d because of course, that was also true. And we want solutions. And I\u2019m not putting down the efforts of the people teaching literacy because I think that was extremely good and hard to do. But if we actually want solutions, we have to look deeper. We have to look into causes and conditions. Otherwise, we\u2019re just going to go round, and round, and round, and round.<\/span><\/p>\n

    \u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

    TS: <\/b>OK. The last thing I wanted to ask you about is something you already touched on, and it was when you were talking about joy and talking about what you might need to let go of. I\u2019m wondering, in general, to be a real change maker, what your thoughts are about what we might need to let go of.<\/span><\/p>\n

    \u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

    SS: <\/b>Oh, well, isolation. I think a certain kind of certainty as well. I think that the spirit of inquiry is really important, and we see so much positionality. [\u2026] I think we need to let go of some extremes and understand a place in the middle. So, when I say let go of positionality, I don\u2019t mean let go of principle and a sense of right and wrong, because I think there is right and wrong. You don\u2019t have to be highly judgmental about it or consider yourself always right and the other people always wrong.<\/span><\/p>\n

    But I think there is. There are actions. There are beliefs. There are ways of being extremely harmful and damaging. And I think that my goal is not to give credence to them as though, well, all beliefs are just beliefs; but, at the same time, to understand causes and conditions that people come to understandings in different ways and that it sort of comes back to me some nice this quotation from Maya Angelou, who said something like \u201cWhen you know better, you do better.\u201d And that it\u2019s kind of understandable how each of us in different times, in different ways, gets stuck, and that we need to know better in order to do better.<\/span><\/p>\n

    \u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

    TS: <\/b>Now, Sharon, just to conclude, I hear you\u2019re working on a new book from <\/span>Real Change<\/span><\/i>, your previous book to a new book called, <\/span>Real Life<\/span><\/i>. Can you give us just a brief preview, what\u2019s <\/span>Real Life <\/span><\/i>going to be about?<\/span><\/p>\n

    \u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

    SS: <\/b>Real Life<\/span><\/i>. <\/span>Real Life<\/span><\/i> is about moving from contraction, narrowness, to expansion or openness and is based in lockdown. I watched this program called <\/span>Saturday Night Seder<\/span><\/i>, which I absolutely love. I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s still up on YouTube or not. But it was my Seder of the year because I wasn\u2019t going anywhere. And it reminded me that if you take all of that symbolically and not in terms of geopolitics or anything like that, the word that is translated as \u201cEgypt\u201d actually means \u201ca narrow place.\u201d So, the whole Seder is symbolic from moving from being locked in and constrained and narrow to being open and free. And so, it\u2019s all about that. I always see that that progression, it starts and ends with the Seder.<\/span><\/p>\n

    \u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

    TS: <\/b>Beautiful.<\/span><\/p>\n

    \u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

    SS: <\/b>Thank you.<\/span><\/p>\n

    \u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

    TS: <\/b>Well, we\u2019ll talk again about <\/span>Real Life <\/span><\/i>in a couple years, God willing.<\/span><\/p>\n

    \u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

    SS: <\/b>Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

    \u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

    TS: <\/b>Yes. I\u2019ve been speaking with Sharon Salzberg. We\u2019ve been talking about <\/span>Real Change<\/span><\/i>. She\u2019s written a book with that title, <\/span>Mindfulness to Heal Ourselves in the World <\/span><\/i>with Sounds True. Sharon\u2019s also written a book on the force of kindness about lovingkindness meditation. She\u2019s created several audio programs with us, including the audio book of her book <\/span>Faith<\/span><\/i>, an online course with Joseph Goldstein on insight meditation, and she\u2019s also one of the wisdom teachers participating in Sounds True\u2019s <\/span>Inner MBA <\/span><\/i>program, teaching on lovingkindness at work. Sharon, always great to be with you. You increase my IQ\u2014know better to do better. Thank you. Thank you so much.<\/span><\/p>\n

    \u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

    SS: <\/b>It\u2019s always great to be with you, truly.<\/span><\/p>\n


    \nTS: Thank you for listening to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>. You can read a full transcript of today\u2019s interview at SoundsTrue.com\/podcast. If you\u2019re interested, hit the Subscribe button in your podcast app. And also, if you feel inspired, head to iTunes and leave <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i> a review. I love getting your feedback, being in connection with you and learning how we can continue to evolve and improve our program. Working together, I believe we can create a kinder and wiser world, SoundsTrue.com: waking up the world.<\/span><\/b><\/p>\n","protected":false},"template":"","meta":{"_expiration-date-status":"","_expiration-date":0,"_expiration-date-type":"","_expiration-date-categories":[],"_expiration-date-options":[]},"class_list":["post-19502","transcript","type-transcript","status-publish","hentry"],"yoast_head":"\nGiving Your Heart Over To Real Change - Transcript | Sounds True<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Giving Your Heart Over To Real Change. Explore teachings on meditation and spiritual wisdom.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"noindex, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Giving Your Heart Over To Real Change - Transcript | Sounds True\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Giving Your Heart Over To Real Change. Explore teachings on meditation and spiritual wisdom.\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/giving-your-heart-over-to-real-change\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Sounds True\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:modified_time\" content=\"2022-03-30T15:53:12+00:00\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"47 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/giving-your-heart-over-to-real-change\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/giving-your-heart-over-to-real-change\/\",\"name\":\"Giving Your Heart Over To Real Change - Transcript | Sounds True\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#website\"},\"datePublished\":\"2022-03-21T19:35:37+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2022-03-30T15:53:12+00:00\",\"description\":\"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Giving Your Heart Over To Real Change. Explore teachings on meditation and spiritual wisdom.\",\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/giving-your-heart-over-to-real-change\/#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/giving-your-heart-over-to-real-change\/\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/giving-your-heart-over-to-real-change\/#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"Transcripts\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":3,\"name\":\"Giving Your Heart Over to Real Change\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/\",\"name\":\"Sounds True\",\"description\":\"\",\"publisher\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#organization\"},\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":{\"@type\":\"PropertyValueSpecification\",\"valueRequired\":true,\"valueName\":\"search_term_string\"}}],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"Organization\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#organization\",\"name\":\"Sounds True\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/\",\"logo\":{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#\/schema\/logo\/image\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/08\/soundstrue-logo-footer-color.png\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/08\/soundstrue-logo-footer-color.png\",\"width\":1035,\"height\":235,\"caption\":\"Sounds True\"},\"image\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#\/schema\/logo\/image\/\"}}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Giving Your Heart Over To Real Change - Transcript | Sounds True","description":"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Giving Your Heart Over To Real Change. Explore teachings on meditation and spiritual wisdom.","robots":{"index":"noindex","follow":"follow","max-snippet":"max-snippet:-1","max-image-preview":"max-image-preview:large","max-video-preview":"max-video-preview:-1"},"og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"Giving Your Heart Over To Real Change - Transcript | Sounds True","og_description":"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Giving Your Heart Over To Real Change. Explore teachings on meditation and spiritual wisdom.","og_url":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/giving-your-heart-over-to-real-change\/","og_site_name":"Sounds True","article_modified_time":"2022-03-30T15:53:12+00:00","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_misc":{"Est. reading time":"47 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/giving-your-heart-over-to-real-change\/","url":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/giving-your-heart-over-to-real-change\/","name":"Giving Your Heart Over To Real Change - Transcript | Sounds True","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#website"},"datePublished":"2022-03-21T19:35:37+00:00","dateModified":"2022-03-30T15:53:12+00:00","description":"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Giving Your Heart Over To Real Change. Explore teachings on meditation and spiritual wisdom.","breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/giving-your-heart-over-to-real-change\/#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/giving-your-heart-over-to-real-change\/"]}]},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/giving-your-heart-over-to-real-change\/#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"Transcripts","item":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":3,"name":"Giving Your Heart Over to Real Change"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#website","url":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/","name":"Sounds True","description":"","publisher":{"@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#organization"},"potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":{"@type":"PropertyValueSpecification","valueRequired":true,"valueName":"search_term_string"}}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Organization","@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#organization","name":"Sounds True","url":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/","logo":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#\/schema\/logo\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/08\/soundstrue-logo-footer-color.png","contentUrl":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/08\/soundstrue-logo-footer-color.png","width":1035,"height":235,"caption":"Sounds True"},"image":{"@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#\/schema\/logo\/image\/"}}]}},"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/transcript\/19502","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/transcript"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/transcript"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=19502"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}