{"id":19599,"date":"2022-05-27T16:01:52","date_gmt":"2022-05-27T22:01:52","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?post_type=transcript&p=19599"},"modified":"2022-05-27T16:01:52","modified_gmt":"2022-05-27T22:01:52","slug":"no-struggle-no-swag","status":"publish","type":"transcript","link":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/no-struggle-no-swag\/","title":{"rendered":"No Struggle, No Swag"},"content":{"rendered":"
\"image_print\"Print Transcript<\/span><\/a><\/div>

Tami Simon:<\/b> Welcome to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>, produced by Sounds True. My name is Tami Simon. I\u2019m the founder of Sounds True. I\u2019d love to take a moment to introduce you to the Sounds True Foundation. The goal of the Sounds True Foundation is to provide access and eliminate financial barriers to transformational education and resources, such as teachings and trainings on mindfulness, emotional awareness, and self-compassion. If you\u2019d like to learn more and join with us in our efforts, please visit SoundsTrueFoundation.org.<\/span><\/p>\n

In this episode of <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>, my guest is George Mumford. George is a globally recognized speaker, teacher, and coach since 1989. He\u2019s been honing his gentle, but groundbreaking mindfulness techniques with people from locker rooms to boardrooms.<\/span><\/p>\n

A former basketball player at the University of Massachusetts. Injuries forced George out of basketball, and eventually into an addiction to pain medication and drugs. With the help of meditation and the practice of mindfulness, George got clean, and he made it his mission to teach and work with others. He\u2019s the author of the book <\/span>The Mindful Athlete: Secrets to Pure Performance<\/span><\/i>.<\/span><\/p>\n

With Sounds True, George Mumford is the commencement speaker for the second cohort of the <\/span>Inner MBA<\/span><\/i>, a nine-month online learning program that helps you develop the inner skills and capacities you need for better outer performance at work. The third cohort of the <\/span>Inner MBA<\/span><\/i> begins in September, and you can learn more at InnerMBAProgram.com.<\/span><\/p>\n

Now, my conversation with George Mumford, where he talks about the essentials of what is pure performance, and how we can see clearly and love greatly right where we are. Here\u2019s my conversation with George Mumford.<\/span><\/p>\n

I\u2019m excited, George, for this chance to get to know you a bit and for our listeners to get to know you. Right here at the beginning, can you share with us a bit about your background, your early background, your early life? Here\u2019s the key\u2014how did you discover mindfulness?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

George Mumford:<\/b> Yes. My early life, I don\u2019t know, because I\u2019m an old\u2014what they call an OG. I\u2019ve been around for a minute. I don\u2019t know how far back I need to go. I know I used to engage in sports up into college and then I got hurt. My career ended and I got addicted to pain meds, then generally to drugs and alcohol. Just fast forwarding to 1984, I was what they call a functional substance abuser. I was still working and everything.<\/span><\/p>\n

Then I got into recovery, 1984. Then, when I got clean, I discovered I had chronic pain and migraine headaches, and I had to learn how to deal with that. The HMO that I was in, one of the few that were around in 1984. I got into a stress management program that was being taught by Joan Borysenko, which was an extension of Herbert Benson\u2019s Mind Body Clinic at Beth, Israel.<\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s when I got introduced to mindfulness and a whole lifestyle change in terms of me taking more responsibility for my healthcare and understanding the connection between the mind and the body, and how we could really control involuntary systems in the nervous system, indirectly by how we directed attention and how we develop the mind and heart.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Onliest.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

GM: <\/b>Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I remember that word, \u201conliest.\u201d I\u2019m curious what that experience was like for you.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

GM: <\/b>Yes. Well, my parents are from Alabama. That\u2019s been my experience from the eighth grade on, that I went from predominantly people of color or a black neighborhood and school system to one where there were only a few of us. There were very few people of color.<\/span><\/p>\n

From the eighth grade throughout my career, it\u2019s been that way. On some level, yes, just being the only person, I just noticed I was the only person. But because of that warrior spirit I have, and because my sense was, \u201cWell, I don\u2019t have a problem with that, too. I have no problem.\u201d Even though I was the onliest, but there were just not many people that looked like me around.<\/span><\/p>\n

Instead of being isolating, I just noticed that and because I was relating on a soul level or on a spirit level, it didn\u2019t deter me, because I was determined to be engaged in this practice. Actually, if you really think about it, the Buddha looks more like me than he looks like other folks. What\u2019s that?<\/span><\/p>\n

But I didn\u2019t get into that. I just related to people on that spirit level. I had the courage, I had the faith to just push through, but it was challenging. I know for students I work with now, that is really challenging to be on a retreat and see so few people that look like themselves.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>It\u2019s interesting to me you identified this warrior spirit inside of you. Tell me more about that.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

GM: <\/b>Yes. I\u2019ve always been an athlete and being the type A personality. I understand now. That was the first thing that I understood in that stress management class, that I was a type A, but not with hostility, but with kindness, with love. I don\u2019t want to say that that\u2019s how I competed. I competed like a warrior, that force energy, that energy that said, \u201cNo. That I\u2019m going to meet this situation with force, with effort. I\u2019m not going to withdraw effort or fade into the background. I\u2019m going to step up.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

That energy got me to a certain place, but then at some point, even in my experience, it got to a place where it took away\u2014it just didn\u2019t work. But it worked for a certain period of time. It took me decades to figure out that I didn\u2019t need to have that warrior energy I could use. I discovered this phrase: \u201cSlow is smooth. Smooth is fast.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Slow motion gets you there quicker, or the best way to get there is to be in a moment, and just to be with the flow, be like water, and you get there quicker. That means I can be warrior spirit in intention. But in actual process, I had to be more yielding, more open, and flexible.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>There\u2019s a lot I want to talk to you about, George, about this phrase that you use: \u201cpure performance,\u201d and \u201cathletic performance, business performance.\u201d But before we get there, I want to share with our listeners that during the pandemic, you recorded a series of videos that you called \u201cAt Home with George.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

You started each one of these videos in a way that I found to be such a powerful teaching. I want to bring it forward right here at the beginning of our conversation. I\u2019m going to hear it in your words, because it\u2019s almost become like a slogan or something from George Mumford. Go ahead.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

GM: <\/b>Yes. The idea is to embrace whatever comes up and say \u201cyes\u201d to it. By embracing it, and then generating the hope. It\u2019s another way of saying yes to life. I remember listening to Joseph Campbell and <\/span>The Power of Myth<\/span><\/i>, and he talked about the Zen master that he talked to. Basically, the Zen master said, \u201cWe have to say yes to life. We have to just say yes.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

I know there\u2019s a book by Viktor Frankl\u2019s\u2014I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s his estate or whatever. It\u2019s called <\/span>Yes to Life,<\/span><\/i> and that\u2019s it. I talk about it. It\u2019s important that we embrace that, yes, this is what\u2019s happening. What is happening is happening because the conditions, right for what is happening to be happening. We can deny it or we can embrace it, and then work with it.<\/span><\/p>\n

Because once we embrace it, then we can do something about it. I refer to it as the four <\/span>A<\/span><\/i>\u2019s. There\u2019s the awareness of it; and that\u2019s the mindfulness, uncritical mirror mind or the river, or the mountain lake just reflecting the snowy mountains with nothing in between, just the awareness. Then once we can be aware of it and see it clearly, it\u2019s about clear seeing and knowing, but seeing it.<\/span><\/p>\n

Then the second thing is the acceptance of it. Because the nervous system is not personal. If it\u2019s pleasant, we approach. If it\u2019s unpleasant, we have aversion or avoid it. If it\u2019s neither, we\u2019re not interested, we space out. Now, I\u2019m going to distinguish the indifference from the equanimity where we\u2019re not moving forward or away. We\u2019re just holding our center.<\/span><\/p>\n

But there\u2019s a presence there, and there\u2019s an interest there\u2014versus indifference, when there\u2019s nothing that we\u2019re interested in, then we kind of space out. That\u2019s what it comes down to, is realizing that we had to be able to be the eye of the hurricane I talked about and just accept what\u2019s happening.<\/span><\/p>\n

Once we accept it, we can do something about it. I\u2019ll give you an example. Once I accepted that I had a substance abuse issue or problem then I could deal with it. But as long as I\u2019m in denial about it, which is part of the unease or dis-ease is being in denial, or blaming others, instead of just saying, \u201cOK. I accept that this is what\u2019s happening. I don\u2019t like it. But I\u2019m going to embrace it. By embracing it, now I can have a compassionate action.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s the third <\/span>A<\/span><\/i>, is action, compassionate action. Then the fourth <\/span>A<\/span><\/i> is the assessment. What we call post-performance, or reflective phase is after we reflect on what worked, what didn\u2019t work, how did we get what didn\u2019t work to work. It\u2019s the awareness, the acceptance, the compassionate action, it\u2019s always about compassion. It\u2019s all always about not just doing it with that warrior spirit where I\u2019m pushing through, but moving through with that compassion, with that sensitivity, and not getting imbalanced because I\u2019m trying too hard; but to have the right effort, where it\u2019s the balance\u2014continuous effort or energy that leads to that persistence, that ability to have at least a little enthusiasm to get over the lethargy or low energy, and then to get to the point where we\u2019re persistent. When we are persistent, and we continue, slow is smooth and smooth is fast.<\/span><\/p>\n

When you continue even if it\u2019s at a small modicum of little incremental thing, then you develop a flow or momentum, or rhythm, and then it becomes fast. That\u2019s how I interpret that saying \u201cSlow is smooth and smooth is fast.\u201d Now, John Wooden, the Hall of Fame basketball coach, used to talk to his play about \u201cBe quick, but don\u2019t be in a hurry.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Every time at the beginning of these \u201cAt Home with George\u201d videos, when you would say, \u201cWhatever\u2019s going on, whatever is happening for you right now, we\u2019re embracing it.\u201d You\u2019d begin with that. We\u2019re going to hold the possibility of embracing right now what\u2019s happening.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

GM: <\/b>Yes. Right.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Right there, at that point, there would be a comma in the sentence. I noticed I would have a big exhale. I\u2019d be like, \u201cOh, thank goodness. Thank goodness, we can embrace whatever\u2019s happening. Thank goodness, George. God bless you. Thank you. I feel your heart. I feel your love. I feel the embrace.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Then you\u2019d go on and you would say, \u201cAt the same time, we can generate hope for what we want to create.\u201d I noticed that that moment, I had a question inside. The question was like, \u201cCan I? Can I generate hope? I don\u2019t know. Is George going to help me generate hope? I\u2019m embracing what\u2019s happening.\u201d But how do I generate hope?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

GM: <\/b>Yes. This is interesting, took my first foray into cross-steps and whatnot\u2014or let me just quote Albert Einstein. Albert Einstein said that\u2014besides saying \u201cImagination is more powerful than knowledge\u201d\u2014he said that \u201cone question we have to answer is whether or not we believe the universe is friendly or unfriendly.\u201d I can go into it. But let me just cut to the chase.<\/span><\/p>\n

If it\u2019s friendly and there\u2019s a lawfulness to it, then we will use our resources to align ourselves with how things work. We align ourselves to the fact that you don\u2019t have to believe in gravity, but gravity exists. Once you embrace gravity, then you can use it to your advantage. That\u2019s where that came from.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

It\u2019s the proverbial glass\u2014is it half empty, half full? Oh, full, right. But if you observe it from half empty, then you\u2019re starting off in fight, flight, freeze survival mode, rather than seeing it as half full, which is love, which is growth mode, which is moving forward. Which is that \u201cOh, the universe, there\u2019s a lawfulness to it. If I align myself with the law, I\u2019m going to be having an amazing experience.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s the thing. Generating hope is how do you think, feel, and behave in ways where you feel like the glass is half full.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Mm-hmm. How do you do that?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

GM: <\/b>How do I do that? Prayer, meditation. But the main thing is the teachings of the Buddha, and science, even neuroscience is understanding how things work. Understanding how my mind works. When I talked about generating hope, that\u2019s really right effort. Right effort is to cultivate wholesome mind states, wholesome thoughts, wholesome feelings and behaviors.<\/span><\/p>\n

If I realized that, yes, I say yes to life, and I embrace it, once again, is the interpretation that something happens from interpreting it as an opportunity to learn something or opportunity to know myself better. That\u2019s one of the most amazing journeys we can be on is to get to know ourselves better. I don\u2019t mean like the ego stuff. I mean, the spiritual self, whether we call it the Buddha nature, the Christ consciousness, or the divine spark, or I call it the masterpiece.<\/span><\/p>\n

We start off from basic goodness with the masterpiece. The real question is, can you access it? You can access it. How do you access it? Through how you think, how you feel, how you behave. But really it\u2019s about prayer, meditation, and service. That\u2019s how we access it. We access it. That was a big part of 12-step recovery. For me, is the best way to stay clean is to help somebody else stay clean.<\/span><\/p>\n

I call it \u201cforget yourself to find yourself.\u201d You help somebody else to get out of yourself, help somebody else. You\u2019re also helping yourself, because we get beyond this illusion of separateness. Now, in the Buddhist texts, they talk about denying self. I prefer seeing it as the illusion of separateness, that we\u2019re all connected.<\/span><\/p>\n

You can see it during times of crisis like 9\/11 and in the bombing, the Boston Marathon bombing, where you had people running towards the explosion instead of away from it. Every once in a while, we get beyond that illusion of separateness. We feel like, \u201cOh, I have to do something.\u201d There\u2019s a movement of the heart.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

GM: <\/b>That\u2019s why the compassion is really important. If it\u2019s self-compassion, as well as compassion for others or love and kindness\u2014I mean, when we talk about love and kindness and joy and compassion, practice, as well as equanimity, those divine abode, those mindsets. They said that the antidote to greed and hatred, and jealousy, if you\u2019ve will, and there\u2019s nothing being in joy, where we can handle depression and anxiety, it goes down, happiness is the antidote to those things.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>OK. Now, I\u2019m going to ask some questions here, George, to tease a few things out, because this quote from Albert Einstein, which I\u2019ve heard before this decision we make, is the universe a friendly place or not? I have a friend who says, \u201cHow could I say? I don\u2019t know enough to say. I\u2019m neutral on that question. Damn you and your do-gooder inside. You\u2019re going to go into this friendly thing? I\u2019m just going to stay neutral on it because I don\u2019t know.\u201d What do you think about that?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

GM: <\/b>Well, what did the Buddha say? The Buddha said, \u201cDon\u2019t believe me. See if it\u2019s true.\u201d This is one of the awakening factors: investigation. The idea is not to take my word for it but see if it\u2019s true. We\u2019re talking about verified faith. You can have faith and then you can have insight and your friend sounds like he has more insight than faith.<\/span><\/p>\n

It makes us a little cynical. With the five superpowers I talk about, we have to generate more trust, more faith to balance that. Then we would verify it. I\u2019m not asking you to do it. Just see if it\u2019s true. I can tell you from my experience, that what I\u2019m teaching is when I\u2019m being and what I\u2019ve experienced.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>How have you verified that the universe is a friendly place, George?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

GM: <\/b>Because when I started focusing on what I held in mind, and noticing that if I had a right view, if I see things as the proverbial glass, or this is from the universe, and this is what was happening, and this is what 12-step programs do\u2014is they let you develop your own concept of higher power or how the universe works. That\u2019s the foundation. You have to have a spiritual foundation.<\/span><\/p>\n

In a Buddhist context, you take refuge the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha. What does that mean? That means you take refuge in the fact that you have Buddha nature. You are wired for success. Only you can do it. It\u2019s an inside job, but you have to do it; you have to figure it out. These teachings are a way of aligning yourself with things which gives you an amazing experience of being fully alive and living more fully and more creatively.<\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s been my experience. Then there\u2019s a Sangha, or there\u2019s a community of like-minded folks you can talk to. We call teachers, good friends\u2014or you and I have been good friends. We\u2019re not talking about how to tear somebody apart, or how to criticize. We\u2019re talking about how to do this thing called life in a way that we can live more fully and more creatively. That\u2019s what you\u2019re about, just my opinion. That\u2019s why you have me on here.<\/span><\/p>\n

The suitable conversation we\u2019re talking about, we\u2019re talking about how we can embrace everything and at the same time generate the hope. You generate the hope by thinking about things in ways that allows you to feel that there\u2019s opportunities here, that these difficulties, these obstacles are just steppingstones. That\u2019s an interpretation. You can interpret it any way.<\/span><\/p>\n

This is the whole positive psychology thing of interpretive styles. You can interpret things in a way that empowers us, that allows us to say, \u201cOh, there\u2019s a lesson here. This is going to be great. Let\u2019s move with it.\u201d That\u2019s what I\u2019m saying. You generate that by your attitude. If it\u2019s that positive, this is scientifically, Barbara Fredrickson calls it the broaden-and-build theory.<\/span><\/p>\n

When we\u2019re at positive, our cognitive functioning, our ability to see and think and feel is enhanced. We\u2019re not tunnel visioned. We actually open up. By the panoramic view, the solution is there, rather than being stuck on one channel, or just looking at the same thing. We have to understand that this is what right view is all about. Right view is seeing things rightly. Seeing things, instead of greed, hate, and delusion, we\u2019re looking at generosity.<\/span><\/p>\n

I don\u2019t like the word \u201csacrifice.\u201d I rather prefer to call it generosity, lovingkindness, or love, compassion, and then wisdom, understanding, seeking to understand, and the insights. There\u2019s a lawfulness. If we understand how things work, then we can align with that. Then we can achieve, or we can have a life that\u2019s more full and more creative because we understand the rules.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I noticed, George, when you talk about this notion of each of us having a masterpiece, using that word, a \u201cmasterpiece\u201d inside, everything in me lights up. I just love it. I\u2019m just like, \u201cWrite down the word \u2018masterpiece.\u2019 This is such an important idea.\u201d How did you come up with using that word to talk about our inner nature?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

GM: <\/b>I just took my warrior energy, or that type A, just going after it. I used to chase drugs and alcohol. I just took it to chase the spirit. I was using John Barleycorn instead of the real spirit. When I was thinking about reflecting on it, and then I remember this idea that Michelangelo was asked how he created these masterpieces out of these chunks of marble.<\/span> He said, \u201cAll I do is chip away to get to the masterpiece that\u2019s already there.\u201d It reminds me, I actually had the privilege of meeting and spending time with Matthew Fox, and he wrote a book called <\/span>Original Blessing<\/span><\/i>. He was a Dominican priest. I feel that that\u2019s it. We were born with Buddha nature, Christ consciousness, a divine spark, you can call it whatever you want.<\/span><\/p>\n

But it\u2019s a masterpiece within this whole, perfect and complete. We just have to figure out how to access it and how to align ourselves with it, how to be it, how to claim it. I don\u2019t say \u201cOwn it.\u201d But just be it. How do we access it? The caterpillar goes into a chrysalis, and it has to struggle to get out of that chrysalis. But it\u2019s the struggle that gives it the strength to fly.<\/span><\/p>\n

I had all of these metaphors. The one that stuck was a masterpiece, that once you come from that, once you understand that, then you realize we\u2019re wired for success. We just have to understand how we work. We have to know ourselves. We have to know how the mind and body is connected. That\u2019s what my experience was.<\/span><\/p>\n

I thought the mind and body were separate. Then I realized that they were connected, that the way through sometimes being still is through movement. Sometimes we get to movement through stillness. My teacher, Paulsen Mark, used to talk about this movement and stillness and stillness and movement. That\u2019s the idea of understanding that the mind and body are connected. There are different ways to access it.<\/span><\/p>\n

Depending on our conditioning, depending on our tendencies, we have to work out for ourselves. We have to work out for ourselves. How do we need to do it? How do we need to access that masterpiece? But I have some ideas. I have some teachings. I think the Buddhist teaching, there\u2019s a lot of teachings out there. I study Hasidic teachings.<\/span><\/p>\n

All of those wisdom cultures talk about it in some form, or fashion, but it really does come down to be still and know.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Tell me, when you were just referencing teachings that are personally very relevant to you, about accessing this masterpiece that\u2019s already there, but is being uncovered. What are those teachings that are so personally meaningful to you?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

GM: <\/b>Yes. I grew up Southern Baptist. Obviously, some of the … I stopped going to Sunday school at 14. But Sunday school didn\u2019t leave me. I think about the Christ consciousness. There\u2019s stuff there that I can refer to. But then there\u2019s the Buddhist teachings. Then there\u2019s just the wisdom literature. It doesn\u2019t matter what it is. But I was very drawn to Martin Buber.<\/span><\/p>\n

The study of existentialism, that was one of the main things when I went to graduate school. That was the first time I really got a sense for why I felt the way that I felt. I started to have this concept of understanding how I needed to do that. It\u2019s really more about what touches my heart. What touches my heart is folks that are focusing on (I can do both) the light and moving into the light or talking about freedom, talking about how it\u2019s as simple as\u2014excuse my expression, but when I was in college, Parliament or Funkadelic, Parliament became Funkadelic; they had a song; they said, \u201cFree your mind and your ass will follow.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I like it. I like it.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

GM: <\/b>There\u2019s all of these references to this idea of the inner journey, the inside-out. I call it the inner game. That how important it was to get a direct experience of it. But there\u2019s an intuition that knows. It\u2019s like, how many times have we had this still, small voice to say, \u201cNo. Don\u2019t go there.\u201d And we go there. Then we say, \u201cI should have listened to myself.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

We can cultivate that. We can understand that. But you got to be still. And we have to figure out how to dwell in that silence, how to get with ourselves, be with ourselves so we\u2019re not in the world, we\u2019re out there. We\u2019re letting the environment dictate who we are or what we want to do versus us realizing that we have a unique individual self. That\u2019s what we have to allow to express itself, not what somebody else thinks.<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s an inside job. We have to feel our way through. We have to get a sense for that masterpiece. That idea of masterpiece and that idea how do you connect with it by being in the moment and being honest. Integrity is really important, this idea of being honest. That\u2019s the biggest thing is the self-honesty. That\u2019s where the confidence, that\u2019s where our courage, that\u2019s where our confidence comes from when we know how things work.<\/span><\/p>\n

We know that we have this amazing ability that we can access. If we figure out how to relate in lives in ways where we can embrace whatever comes up and generate the hope, because they\u2019re lessons. They\u2019re steppingstones for our development. They\u2019re also opportunities for our latent abilities to express themselves.<\/span><\/p>\n

If I look at my substance abuse as a waste of time, and \u201cI was awful, and I\u2019m still awful,\u201d that\u2019s looking at the glass is half empty. Instead of looking at it half full. I had to go through that to get to where I am. My latent abilities, my real self was able to express itself because of those obstacles and challenges.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>First of all, George, I\u2019ve been hosting this <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i> podcast for more than a decade. One of my favorite moments that will go down is when you said, \u201cFree your mind and your ass will follow.\u201d That\u2019s just one of my favorite moments. I think that\u2019s because I like to dance. I know what you\u2019re saying is true.<\/span><\/p>\n

What I\u2019m curious about is, here you work so much with athletes, with people who move, and you\u2019re trying to help them understand this principle in terms of athletic performance. You\u2019ve worked with some of the top athletes in the world, top basketball players in the world. How have you helped top athletes free their mind so their game will follow, their top performance will follow?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

GM: <\/b>Yes. It\u2019s interesting. [It\u2019s] not notoriety because it\u2019s not necessarily negative, but my fame came from working with athletes, but that\u2019s a small percentage of the people I work with. I\u2019ve taught a lot in meditation centers and normal people, people that are not athletes. Most of my work has been with females; a lot of people don\u2019t understand female athletes and female executives and just females in general. They\u2019re the ones that would buy the books back 20, 30 years ago.<\/span> Those are the ones that came to my workshops and my retreats. I\u2019d say 90 percent, 80 percent of them were female.<\/span><\/p>\n

When I talk with athletes, they know what being in the zone or being in flow is like. When I talk about how this makes them flow-ready, it\u2019s also how to do things in ways where you\u2019re not using too much effort, or you\u2019re not too self-absorbed, that you actually perform better when you forget yourself, when there\u2019s no self-consciousness, when you\u2019re just in the activity.<\/span> You\u2019re focused on what you\u2019re doing, not on how you\u2019re doing. [I\u2019m] able to talk to them about how to access\u2014number one, get to know what their strengths and what their weaknesses are. Encourage them to leverage their strengths, and to figure out how to live in a way where you\u2019re not driven by fear or essential desire.<\/span><\/p>\n

But yes, there is a desire. There\u2019s a need to succeed. But at the same time, how you approach that is very different, where it\u2019s a lot about letting go or allowing things to happen instead of trying to make things happen. Does that make sense? It\u2019s the same.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>It makes sense. At the same time, it\u2019s like, \u201cOK, I\u2019m going to forget myself. Here I am, and me, and myself, and I\u2019m trying to forget myself.\u201d How do I get out of that double thing happening, the weakness and the person I\u2019m trying to forget, and all of that?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

GM: <\/b>Yes. The first thing we have to understand is we have this amazing ability to observe ourselves, to step back and observe ourselves. That\u2019s the first thing, is self-awareness, or the ability to set self aside just with education. We\u2019re talking about set self aside and observe things. That\u2019s how we learn. We have to be able to see ourselves.<\/span><\/p>\n

But here\u2019s the interesting thing. I believe William James said this, but it was attributed to somebody else: \u201cYou are not what you think you are; but what you think, you are.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I think I got it. I think.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

GM: <\/b>You will have the idea of who they are. But if they do uncritical observation of their reactions in life, or how they\u2019re behaving, they will realize there\u2019s a hidden self that they\u2019re not capped into. They have an idea about who they are, but that\u2019s not who they are. I\u2019m fond of quoting the philosopher\u2014but there\u2019s two of them because they did it together\u2014Dr. Dre and Snoop Dog.<\/span> The line is \u201cI have my mind on money, money on my mind.\u201d That\u2019s meditation. The whole key is what is your mind on? What are you holding in mind? Because as human beings, we manifest that. There\u2019s a book called <\/span>The Strangest Secret<\/span><\/i>. You know what the strangest secret is? (By Earl Nightingale.) We become what we think about.<\/span><\/p>\n

Well, just think about that for a minute. We become what we think about. If we\u2019re thinking on the down low unconsciously, and we have an image of who we are, that\u2019s what\u2019s determining what we\u2019d select it do and what we decide we can\u2019t do. This self-image is like a self-image we create inside. It\u2019s like a virtual map that we\u2019re relating to. We have to change that map. We have to be able to change it.<\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s why you see people who have the phantom limb syndrome. What\u2019s that about? Well, because even though the arm is gone, the virtual map hasn\u2019t been changed. They actually have pain there. Think about ways somebody tells us, \u201cWe\u2019re not smiling enough. We\u2019re not tall enough. We don\u2019t look right.\u201d Then we have that virtual map. We have that image of who we are.<\/span><\/p>\n

Any image or anything we do that conflicts with that we\u2019re going to go back to the image we created. We have to understand how we can think, feel and behave. For me, to become clean, I had to behave my way into proper thinking. I forgot myself by not doing what I would normally do, and just do what I know do and then that my thinking catch up with me. You understand what I\u2019m saying? Because who I think I am is not who I am.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>You led with the behavior change. But let\u2019s try to make this specific to an athletic performance challenge. Somebody comes to you, and they have some\u2014let\u2019s take an example. I know our engineer likes golf. I\u2019m going to bring a golf example forward. I\u2019m not saying that our engineer has a problem where he slices the ball instead of getting a nice arc to it. I don\u2019t really know.<\/span><\/p>\n

But let\u2019s just pretend that there\u2019s this ongoing slicing problem. This is mapped in this fear. \u201cI\u2019m going to get up there. I\u2019m going to\u2014”<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

GM: <\/b>Yes. Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>How do you help people make the shift?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

GM: <\/b>Yes. Let\u2019s go to the extreme one, that point. I\u2019ve worked with softball pitchers, a female softball pitcher. She had the yips. The yips is, say she goes a throw to first base and the ball goes ten feet.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Right.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

GM: <\/b>The more you tried to change it, the worse it gets. Pitchers, the same thing. The way that I get them out of that is to get them to just focus on [doing something] instead of trying not to do something; because when you say, \u201cDon\u2019t throw the ball ten feet,\u201d you\u2019re going to throw the ball ten feet.<\/span><\/p>\n

The best way to change it is to rewire yourself. This change, rewire your neural net by just focusing on the basic fundamentals and just focus on the fundamentals of throwing. Planting your feet and using the basic fundamentals of throwing a ball. When it comes to golf, if you slice the ball, the more you try not to slice it, the more you slice it.<\/span><\/p>\n

But if you just focus on the basic essentials, the fundamentals of golf, and that\u2019s what you focus on, then it\u2019s helpful if you visualize yourself; because the nervous system, the brain, doesn\u2019t know the difference between what we experience and what we think and imagine. If I say to you, \u201cThis is an old-fashioned blackboard, and I take my hand and I do this,\u201d you can feel as if it\u2019s there.<\/span><\/p>\n

If you are focusing on failing, then you\u2019re creating a neural net, and you\u2019re programming yourself to fail. But if you can understand how to reprogram yourself, and you mentally see yourself doing it, and then you go out and physically do it, then you just get back to basic fundamentals and stop trying to do anything other than just focus on just making a nice play, just doing the proper technique. And you get many repetitions of that.<\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s how you\u2019re able to get out of that slicing thing. I play golf and I used to hit ball in the water the more I tried not to hit it in the water\u2014and I work with professional golfers. I know that it\u2019s the mind, body, heart, and soul. There\u2019s a whole person, but you have to start seeing yourself in new in different ways and start thinking about yourself, instead of focusing on your failures or what you can\u2019t do.<\/span><\/p>\n

You never focus on what you want to do, who you want to be, and then do the process that gets you there, to get into the basic fundamentals. It\u2019s always about basic fundamentals and just mastering the fundamentals. Then you can make the correction and it\u2019s a lot easier. But when you put pressure on yourself, \u201cI got to stop doing what I\u2019m doing,\u201d<\/span> you continue to do that. The more you try not to, the more you do it. But if you can just let it go and just start to rebuild or reset your whole physical, your whole movement, your skill set, and the mindset that goes with the skill set, the attitude, the emotions that go with it, then you can change it.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Is part of your coaching with people to have them visualize the success that they want, to see the stroke and see the ball coming, is that part of what you teach people?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

GM: <\/b>Well, that\u2019s part. To me, people always want a formula. It\u2019s not a formula. The formula is to be with what\u2019s there and meet them where they are and where they are. Then the mindfulness and the wisdom will determine what\u2019s the next step. Yes. I asked people, what do they want and then who do they need to be, to do what they want to do?<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s different for different people. For some people, it\u2019s just getting back to the fundamentals and just remembering that you can have fun. The whole thing is to be yourself and to have fun. You have to acknowledge who you are, acknowledge your tendencies, or the things that resonate with you and play to that.<\/span><\/p>\n

But you got to know what you do well, what you don\u2019t do well, because you can know what your weaknesses are. You can spend your time trying to get your weaknesses to a mediocre state, or you can focus on your strengths, and have them get to an elite level. Especially if you\u2019re on a team, you have teammates that will fill in, do what you don\u2019t do so well so that you just have to focus on what you do well. That\u2019s helpful.<\/span><\/p>\n

It just really depends on the situation and the person. But it always comes down to them knowing themselves so they can be themselves, so they can express themselves, so they can share themselves. It\u2019s an inside job about how you are managing the present moment so that you can see things clearly. You want to love greatly, but you want to see things clearly. Then, seeing things clearly, the potential, the appropriate action will be obvious.<\/span><\/p>\n

Does that make sense? It\u2019s really simple. I like to say, \u201cGood actions need good images, great actions need great images.\u201d Yes. We do talk. The unconscious images and feelings, emotions, they\u2019re very important. We can see it. We can hit it. We can visualize it. Because the whole role of thinking, if you think about it, that\u2019s an interesting way of thinking about thinking.<\/span><\/p>\n

But if you think about it\u2014what is the purpose of thinking? Thinking helps us to develop scenarios on how things will turn out or how things might turn out. You get to the point where I help teach them with the inner dialogue and a body language to really get clear about what\u2019s happening and to be able to change the language so that it\u2019s consistent or in alignment with what they say they want to do.<\/span><\/p>\n

For me, if I\u2019m going to work with a client, and when I work with a client, it\u2019s not like, \u201cOK. I\u2019m just working with them when I\u2019m with them for an hour or whatever it is.\u201d I\u2019m thinking about it and then reflecting on it, and I\u2019m playing out scenarios on how certain things would work if I\u2019m going to give a presentation. I\u2019m playing out scenarios on how it\u2019s going to work.<\/span><\/p>\n

Whereas before, most of my time was focused on what mistakes not to make, what am I trying to avoid? I don\u2019t want to repeat bad stuff. You started training yourself to understand that when you transform your mind so that your mind is just seeing what\u2019s there and is an ability to be creative and to be excited about it and understand how you\u2019re going to do things, you have an image of how you need to do it.<\/span><\/p>\n

You might give me a game plan. But then I have to understand how do I take those instructions you give me and express them in my own way, and do it in a way that makes sense for my conditioning and my tendencies, and my abilities really, my strengths?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>George, in your own experience, has there been some mental patterning that you\u2019ve really needed to shift, wanted to shift in your life? How did that go for you?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

GM: <\/b>Yes. There are multiple. But I think the first thing started when I learned about meditation. My first meditation teacher, Larry Rosenberg\u2014and I was living at the Insight Meditation, Cambridge Insight Meditation Center. I lived there for six years. In those days we used to have a one-hour meeting.<\/span><\/p>\n

I remember I was in recovery. I used to say, \u201cI\u2019m alcoholic and a drug addict,\u201d or whatever. This is what good teachers do, a good friend\u2014whatever you\u2019re attached to, they take it away from you. He told me to stop seeing myself as an addict and alcoholic and to see myself as a person. I started to change and started to look at myself different ways.<\/span><\/p>\n

I will say, \u201cI\u2019m in recovery,\u201d or \u201cI\u2019m doing this or that.\u201d But I really started thinking about myself being a spiritual being having a human experience or whatever, or I have a masterpiece inside. When I started seeing myself as this masterpiece, this unfolding, this becoming, and this learning\u2014and we learn through mistakes\u2014I realized that I can learn anything I want to learn and I just have to be able to be alone and learn from my mistakes and just see if I can have a direct experience of any of these teachings that I teach, or that I feel it\u2019s important, like the idea, I get to create my reality, I become what I think about. If I have my mind on a certain thing, then that\u2019s what\u2019s going to happen.<\/span><\/p>\n

I have to understand, \u201cWell, what am I thinking? How am I thinking? How am I feeling? How am I behaving?\u201d If I want to be a champion or if I want to be an elite performer, then I have to think, feel, and behave like a champion. I have to become it before I can be it. That makes any sense?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Yes. You go to this \u201cthink, feel, and behave.\u201d It\u2019s very powerful, all three of those dimensions. Now, one thing I wanted to ask you, George. You mentioned that actually working with athletes is a part of what you do, but that you work with different kinds of people at different populations.<\/span><\/p>\n

I know that you work a lot with business professionals, and you\u2019re actually going to be the commencement speaker at Sounds True\u2019s upcoming <\/span>Inner MBA<\/span><\/i> graduation ceremony coming up for our second cohort. Our third cohort starts in September. Here you are helping our second cohort humans graduate.<\/span><\/p>\n

How would you say the lessons around pure performance in athletics apply or don\u2019t apply in the business arena?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

GM: <\/b>Yes. I\u2019ve got this idea of pure performance. What people don\u2019t probably realize is that I study a lot. Maybe they do realize that. I study a lot. I\u2019ve been averaging over a book a week for the last coming up on 38 years, and as well as reading other things.<\/span><\/p>\n

When the Buddha talks about the foundations of mindfulness, he calls it the path of purification of beings. Pure performance is performance, just not that where you\u2019re just behaving, you\u2019re acting out of coming from that generosity, compassion, understanding. But it\u2019s pure in the sense that it\u2019s not filtered by self-reference, or associative thinking, active thinking.<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s pure, because there\u2019s nothing in between you and the experience and you want to purify the mind and heart. You can see clearly and love greatly, if I just use those two things. The path of pure performance is about this performing for no reason just to be fully engaged in a moment, and fully deploy, and able to express yourself, honestly. That\u2019s really what it comes down to.<\/span><\/p>\n

You\u2019re not doing it in order for this or that. You\u2019re doing it because in and of the thing itself is the moment and being fully engaged in a moment, fully deployed in a moment, and fully self-expressive in a moment; that\u2019s the most important thing\u2014not the thing that we\u2019re doing. That\u2019s why, whether you\u2019re an athlete, or a businessperson\u2014now we\u2019re talking about getting beyond the illusion of separateness.<\/span><\/p>\n

Can I relate to other people as whole beings, not a body, but someone with a body, mind, heart, and soul or spirit? If I leave out any one of those aspects, then I\u2019m relating to that person as a thing, including myself. As a business leader, it\u2019s how do I bring value, everything can be for the greatest good. Sometimes the greatest good is just sharing profits with what the work is just giving it to some of the stakeholders and then not having fair exchange.<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s this idea of fairness, this idea of getting beyond you losing the separateness. I\u2019m not being pollyannish, because I worked as a financial analyst for 16 years. I worked in a corporate structure. I worked at the medical center, where I was elite, where I was a program director, and I had people that reported to me. It\u2019s this idea of learning how to lead but more a radical inclusion, just seeing the whole person, and just understanding how things work.<\/span><\/p>\n

What is meaningful work? If you think about \u201cHow do I get people to join me and feel like this is their company or their organization instead of the organization and they make me do things and I\u2019m going to do things, but I\u2019m going to hope it doesn\u2019t work,\u201d rather than me being fully engaged and fully deployed, because I know that one is all of us; we\u2019re all in this together.<\/span><\/p>\n

We\u2019re working for each other and we\u2019re supporting each other. We start off with the fully integrated self. And then the fully integrated whatever the organization is. Everything begins with the self. No matter who you are, you have a self. If you can be your real self and if you can relate to others as if you wanted to be related to the golden rules, the things we learned in kindergarten.<\/span><\/p>\n

Then we can have a fantastic learning, growing, evolving competitive environment where we\u2019re competing, but we\u2019re competing, out of compassion, out of focusing on a greatest good. That makes sense?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

GM: <\/b>It\u2019s really important. The question is what do you want and who you need to be, but do what you want. It has to have something to do with seeing things clearly, loving fully, or loving greatly. Also means just being, just think about self and other, or thinking about the community, thinking about something bigger.<\/span><\/p>\n

But it\u2019s a balance I talked about in sports, because they\u2019re in teams. You got to develop the \u201cme,\u201d but the \u201cwe\u201d has to take precedent. How do you have that dynamic tension between the \u201cme\u201d and the \u201cwe\u201d? You\u2019ve got to take care of both. The only way you can do that is if you\u2019re willing to be vulnerable and create a trusting environment where you\u2019re able to resolve conflict.<\/span><\/p>\n

When you resolve conflict, you have more commitment. If you have more commitment, then you hold each other accountable. If you hold each other accountable, now you have a group or team rather than a group of individuals or a team of individuals. It all comes back to trust. Once again, that trust is really important.<\/span><\/p>\n

Because without the ability to be vulnerable, and then be willing to take risks, commit to each other in a way where you\u2019re interested in the whole person, not just what the person can give you. I know this sounds pollyannish, but this is what Phil Jackson has been able to do with his teams.<\/span><\/p>\n

I work with organizations and there are organizations out there that are committed to the whole person, committed to not just their company but all of the stakeholders, the people in there, and the environment that they\u2019re working in.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Let me ask you a specifically a question that I think applies in the business arena, at least in my experience. It\u2019s kind of like the athlete that has this nemesis that keeps coming at them. What if someone just is an entrepreneur or a business leader, and the truth is they have a certain amount of fear, financial fear, fear that they\u2019re not going to have the financial success that will translate for their staff and the well-being of everyone?<\/span><\/p>\n

They can\u2019t talk themselves out of it or something, because it\u2019s just real. It\u2019s what\u2019s there. How would you coach them successfully with that?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

GM: <\/b>Yes. Well, it\u2019s the mindset, not the thing. If they\u2019re in survival mode, they see it as half empty, you can\u2019t be in survival mode and growth mode at the same time. You got to get them out of survival mode. They understand that the fear is false evidence appearing real. If you\u2019re afraid of something, it\u2019s good to have healthy fear. But we have to distinguish between healthy fear\u2014fear that\u2019s there\u2014and imagined fear.<\/span><\/p>\n

But the main thing is the glasses you have: if I have fear glasses, I could say and do everything, but it\u2019s going to be perceived in the same way; you\u2019re in survival mode. You can\u2019t be in survival mode and growth mode. I have to get them out of fear, and into a mode of not fear. Yes. You can be afraid of something, but then that\u2019s what courage is for. You got to do it and see if it\u2019s true.<\/span><\/p>\n

But if you are doing the four <\/span>A<\/span><\/i>\u2019s, and you\u2019re aware, you\u2019re embracing it, and generating hope, and seeking to understand, then once you understand that, then everything changes. It\u2019s OK to have that fear. You need to move beyond it and get in growth mode. This is right effort. You have to abandon fear. It\u2019s not helpful. You have to see the fear.<\/span><\/p>\n

Instead of having the broaden-and-build theory, you have tunnel vision and you\u2019re locked in, and you feel trapped, and you\u2019re not going to be able to see that the solution is right in front of you, because you\u2019re choked off of life and your vision. You can\u2019t see clearly. Fear is one of those mindsets that prevents us from seeing clearly and from being fully present.<\/span><\/p>\n

Does that make sense? That\u2019s the thing. It depends. We can get into the object of fear\u2014but it\u2019s always the mindset. If we do it in mindset, the mind changes, everything else changes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>All right. There\u2019s one last\u2014what do I call it? Mumfordism?\u2014That I heard in your \u201cAt Home with George\u201d that I just loved that I want you to introduce to our listeners. You said, \u201cNo struggle, no swag.\u201d I was like, \u201cThat\u2019s so cool, George.\u201d Go ahead. Talk about how you came up with that. \u201cNo struggle, no swag.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

GM: <\/b>Yes. I forget. Where are you physically?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I\u2019m in Boulder, Colorado.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

GM: <\/b>Oh, you\u2019re in Colorado. You\u2019re in amazing place. I have a friend that I been working with for probably 20 years or so. She\u2019s a volleyball coach. She\u2019s coaching at\u2014she probably doesn\u2019t mind, because I put her on social media\u2014Cal State University. She has a volleyball team. I was working with the volleyball team.<\/span><\/p>\n

I\u2019m working with the young ladies. They\u2019re like, \u201cOK. We\u2019ll do it, George. But this is too hard. We don\u2019t want to struggle. We want the soft, the easier way.\u201d I found myself saying, \u201cListen, no struggle, no swag.\u201d They loved it. They put it up on their banner on their locker room. That was it. It\u2019s a real deal. It comes back to the chrysalis, where the story of this young man, young boy saw a chrysalis. He saw that little being digging his way out.<\/span><\/p>\n

He decided to help it and he took some scissors, and he created the opening. When the being got out, it was ill-formed, it was fat, and it fell. What\u2019s the lesson there? The lesson is you have to struggle. The struggle is where you get the strength to fly. If you\u2019re not struggling, you\u2019re not out of your comfort zone, you\u2019re not growing. But it\u2019s the struggle that gets us there.<\/span><\/p>\n

Because when we struggle it gets you, and if you embrace it, once again, embracing it and say, \u201cThis is going to get me there. This is a steppingstone, not a roadblock.\u201d Then all things are possible. Then you get access to this latent ability. You go through it. I got swag. How did I get swag? I struggled.<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s through the struggle that I built the strength, and so I got swag. I\u2019m walking. I got swag. I earned that. No one can give it to you. You have to earn that. You earn it by overcoming obstacles and difficulties by realizing, as Erich Fromm said, anytime we change any behavior, whether it\u2019s the time we brush our teeth or whatever, we immobilize anxieties. The idea is, yes, they\u2019re there. But if you move through the anxiety, you will have strength, you will have swag.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I\u2019ve been speaking with George Mumford. He\u2019s the author of the book <\/span>The Mindful Athlete: Secrets to Pure Performance<\/span><\/i>. He brings his insights on pure performance into many different arenas, including Sounds True\u2019s <\/span>Inner MBA<\/span><\/i> program. He\u2019s the commencement speaker for our second cohort. This is a nine-month online program, where you learn the inner skills that help connect you to greater outer success and expansion.<\/span><\/p>\n

Our third cohort begins in September of this year. You can learn more at InnerMBAProgram.com. I just want to thank you, George, for being with us here on <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>. You have given us all more swag. Thank you.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

GM: <\/b>Yes. I appreciate that. Your questions were amazing. Thank you.<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Thanks for listening to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>. You can read a full transcript of today\u2019s interview at resources2.soundstrue.com\/Podcast. That\u2019s resources2.soundstrue.com\/Podcast. If you\u2019re interested, hit the Subscribe button in your podcast app. If you feel inspired, head to iTunes and leave <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i> a review. I absolutely love getting your feedback and being connected. Sounds True: waking up the world.<\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"template":"","meta":{"_expiration-date-status":"","_expiration-date":0,"_expiration-date-type":"","_expiration-date-categories":[],"_expiration-date-options":[]},"class_list":["post-19599","transcript","type-transcript","status-publish","hentry"],"yoast_head":"\nNo Struggle No Swag - Transcript | Sounds True<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with No Struggle No Swag. 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