{"id":19614,"date":"2022-06-11T11:02:31","date_gmt":"2022-06-11T17:02:31","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?post_type=transcript&p=19614"},"modified":"2022-06-11T11:02:31","modified_gmt":"2022-06-11T17:02:31","slug":"living-untethered","status":"publish","type":"transcript","link":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/living-untethered\/","title":{"rendered":"Living Untethered"},"content":{"rendered":"
\"image_print\"Print Transcript<\/span><\/a><\/div>

Tami Simon:<\/b> Welcome to <\/span>Insights at the Edge <\/span><\/i>produced by Sounds True. My name\u2019s Tami Simon, I\u2019m the founder of Sounds True and I\u2019d love to take a moment to introduce you to the Sounds True Foundation. The goal of the Sounds True Foundation is to provide access and eliminate financial barriers to transformational education and resources such as teachings and trainings on mindfulness, emotional awareness, and self-compassion. If you\u2019d like to learn more and join with us in our efforts, please visit SoundsTrueFoundation.org.<\/span><\/p>\n

In this episode, I speak with bestselling author Michael Singer. Michael is the author of the spiritual classic <\/span>The Untethered So<\/span><\/i>ul. He\u2019s also the author of <\/span>The Surrender Experiment<\/span><\/i>. Both of these books are New York Times bestsellers. <\/span>The Surrender Experiment <\/span><\/i>is the book that recounts his personal story of spiritual unfolding.<\/span><\/p>\n

And now Michael Singer has written a sequel to <\/span>The Untethered Soul<\/span><\/i>, it\u2019s called <\/span>Living Untethered: Beyond the Human Predicament<\/span><\/i>. And it\u2019s a true honor that Sounds True was able to publish <\/span>Living Untethered <\/span><\/i>in partnership with New Harbinger.<\/span><\/p>\n

Sounds True has also created an online course with Michael Singer. It\u2019s called <\/span>Living from a Place of Surrender, <\/span><\/i>and, quite honestly, I hear lots of comments from Sounds True friends and listeners about their favorite programs at Sounds True, and this course with Michael Singer often comes in at the very top of the list for so many people, <\/span>Living from a Place of Surrender<\/span><\/i>.<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s a rare gift for me to have an opportunity to have an in-depth conversation like this with Michael Singer. He\u2019s known as somewhat of a hermit, a recluse, someone who doesn\u2019t give many interviews. And I decided to take it upon myself to really ask him the questions that I felt burning inside me after reading <\/span>Living Untethered<\/span><\/i>. Take a listen.<\/span><\/p>\n

Michael, we\u2019re here to talk about your new book, <\/span>Living Untethered<\/span><\/i>, the sequel, if you will, to <\/span>The Untethered Soul<\/span><\/i>. And to start, first of all, I just want to say how grateful I feel to have this chance to be with you in this way. I know you don\u2019t give very many interviews, and this is a really special treat for me. So, thank you.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Michael Singer: <\/b>No, thank you for inviting me.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now share a little, what inspired the writing of <\/span>Living Untethered<\/span><\/i>? What welled up inside of you, such that you felt it\u2019s time for another book?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MS: <\/b>I generally write when I have something to say, and that\u2019s what happened. People were asking questions; people were going deeper. And I wanted to make sure they had the teachings at the deepest possible level, so <\/span>Living Untethered <\/span><\/i>came out of all that.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>You begin the book asking people, \u201cAre you in there?\u201d Tell me about that question, \u201cAre you in there?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MS: <\/b>That\u2019s the beginning of all spiritual journeys. It\u2019s for a person to ask or someone to ask someone the question, \u201cAre you in there?\u201d I\u2019ve never had anybody say, \u201cNo, I\u2019m not in here.\u201d That\u2019s an interesting concept to think, if they said, \u201cNo, I\u2019m not in here.\u201d Well, then who\u2019s answering and who heard me?<\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s a real centering beginning that anybody can deal with. Doesn\u2019t matter if they\u2019re on a spiritual journey, they were meditating or anything like that. \u201cAre you in there?\u201d And they all say, \u201cYes, I am in here,\u201d and that\u2019s a starting place.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>In talking about being \u201cin there,\u201d you describe something that you call the seat of awareness, and I wanted to start our conversation there. If someone were to listen to this conversation from the seat of awareness, what would that be like? How would they do that?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MS: <\/b>That\u2019s jumping ahead a whole lot, but let\u2019s start there. You are aware. People don\u2019t pay attention to the fact that they\u2019re aware, but obviously they\u2019re aware. You see through your eyes; you hear through ears, and you feel through touch, and so on. Who does that? What does that? Your eyes don\u2019t see, you see through your eyes. Your skin passes messages back to you, your ears pick up sound vibration, send them back to you. Who is that in there and where in there? It\u2019s not really everywhere. There\u2019s a place inside of yourself from which you listen.<\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s why some meditation techniques are very beautiful. They tell you to just listen, listen to quiet, listen to whatever sounds there are, pay attention, listen. Then you really realize you\u2019re in there trying to listen. Where is that? You\u2019re listening from that. And you can\u2019t talk about this stuff because if you talk about it, it\u2019s mental and then you\u2019re basically thinking about it.<\/span><\/p>\n

I would rather have people just be natural and realize, you do hear, don\u2019t you? You do see, don\u2019t you? Who does? And the big question is where do you hear from? But that\u2019s getting into yoga, that\u2019s getting into deep spirituality when you\u2019re asking, \u201cWhere do you hear from?\u201d And most people can\u2019t right away center in on that. They\u2019re not used to focusing on the consciousness. They\u2019re used to focusing on the object of consciousness. I always accept that. That\u2019s fine. I want them to start there because they\u2019re not able to just all of a sudden pull back and withdraw the consciousness from the object of consciousness, which is what you\u2019re seeing through your eyes\u2014objects\u2014[and] you\u2019re hearing through your ears sounds that are outside.<\/span><\/p>\n

You\u2019re asking a deep question; the deep answer is you are inside. And if you meditate and you pay attention and work with witness consciousness, you\u2019re going to find out that there is a place in there where you are and that the sights that are coming in are outside of you, even inside. Your thoughts are outside of you, you\u2019ll feel that they\u2019re at a distance from you, because you\u2019re sitting in a center of consciousness and then you\u2019re projecting your consciousness onto objects of consciousness.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Michael, we\u2019re going to have a deep conversation here, you and me, because I think there\u2019s an audience of people who are so hungry for this. They want this so much and they want to hear from you. I\u2019m not going to hold back, just to let you know.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MS: <\/b>OK. Fair enough.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>OK. You talk about how from this place of the witness, we can witness a three-ring circus, you call it, which I think is quite humorous. Describe the three-ring circus.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MS: <\/b>Basically, there are three categories or groups of objects of consciousness that your consciousness is aware of. One is the outside world. If you close your eyes, you don\u2019t see the outside world. If you open your eyes, Ah, there it is. It comes in.<\/span><\/p>\n

I discussed in the book\u2014it goes deep, tries to be somewhat scientific, so that we fit into an intellectual model because everything is logical and intellectual and reasonable. The fact of the matter is, most people don\u2019t think about this. You don\u2019t really see through your eyes. Your eyes are sensors\u2014we call them senses, but they\u2019re sensors, just like computer sensors\u2014that are picking up light, turning it into signals that are being sent up your nervous system, your optical nerves, and then it is rendering it inside your mind. Just like you look at a flat-screen TV and you look at it in there.<\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s hard for us to relate to, because our mind is so intelligent that it creates 3D and depth perception and everything, even though you\u2019re actually back in here watching what\u2019s coming in. And I like to have fun with people. I say, \u201cI\u2019ll prove it to you that it\u2019s really just light that\u2019s bouncing off of objects and coming into your eyes, right? Turn off the lights and you won\u2019t see anything because then there\u2019s no light bouncing off of things.\u201d That\u2019s how we think. We think we turn off the lights therefore I can\u2019t see. No, it\u2019s because I turned off the light, there\u2019s no light bouncing off the objects and reflecting back into your eyes. It\u2019s kind of neat, isn\u2019t it?<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s fun to talk about this stuff. So, one thing of the three-ring circus is there\u2019s an outside world with all of its objects and there\u2019s a lot of objects out there. The second is, that\u2019s not all you receive inside, not all you\u2019re aware of inside. You\u2019re also aware of thoughts, which I\u2019m sure we\u2019ll be talking about deeper so I\u2019ll just surface level it. You\u2019re aware of thoughts that go on in there. Are you not? Right? You notice your thoughts are talking to you. You notice you can make your thoughts think different things. So, you, the consciousness, the exact same consciousness that is aware of the outside world, is aware of your thoughts.<\/span><\/p>\n

They\u2019re not separate, we\u2019re not categorizing it. This is the consciousness, here\u2019s my thoughts and that\u2019s the consciousness, this is the world. You can do them both at the same time, particularly looking at something and thinking about it, and your same consciousness is seeing both.<\/span><\/p>\n

The third is your emotions, which are quite different than thoughts, and I\u2019m sure we\u2019ll talk more about that. But basically, emotions are feelings, they\u2019re vibrations that come up. They\u2019re not thoughts or thought forms. You can actually see a boat in there. You don\u2019t see words, but you can hear words. They\u2019re talking to you, that voice inside your head.<\/span><\/p>\n

Emotions are not like that. They\u2019re just basically shifts in energy patterns, vibrations that you pick up, but they\u2019re very strong and they catch your consciousness.<\/span><\/p>\n

So those are the three things in the three-ring circus: the outside world that you\u2019re aware of; the thoughts that are inside your head, your mind; and the emotions that emanate from your heart. And consciousness gets distracted by those things.<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s really funny that the word \u201cdistraction\u201d becomes a spiritual word. People don\u2019t think of it that way, but deep spirituality deals with distractions. That\u2019s what it\u2019s all about. If you weren\u2019t distracted by your emotions, distracted by your thoughts, or distracted by the outside world, you\u2019d be sitting in Shakti.<\/span><\/p>\n

The consciousness would be able to come back into its source, and that is very deep. We can talk about that later too. The source of consciousness is not human. It\u2019s divine. It\u2019s universal. But we can\u2019t stay there because we have an emotion, boom, the consciousness gets drawn to the emotion. It gets distracted. We can\u2019t because the thoughts come up: \u201cWhat I\u2019m supposed to do? Do I have time for this? Why\u2019d she say that?\u201d And then we\u2019re distracted by the thoughts.<\/span><\/p>\n

What is distracted? Like we talk about ADHD and different distractions. We\u2019re all that way. We\u2019re all ADD, right? We\u2019re constantly distracted by our thoughts, distracted by our emotions and distracted by objects in the world changing and doing things. Therefore, our consciousness is drawn out of the seat of consciousness, the center of consciousness onto the objects that are distracting us.<\/span><\/p>\n

The main thing I point out at one point in the book, I say you don\u2019t stand a chance. It\u2019s like a conspiracy against you. Something happens outside, it causes thoughts to happen inside, and it causes emotions to happen, and they generally all line up. And then next thing your consciousness is not seated in a centered position, it\u2019s projected onto the objects of consciousness. So that\u2019s what I mean by three-ring circus.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>As I was reading <\/span>Living Untethered<\/span><\/i>, and there\u2019s the witness, there\u2019s the three-ring circus, the sense perceptions, the thoughts, emotions. I was tracking with you, and I was kind of following your argument, if you will, the presentation, beautifully. And then you got to the point where you said there\u2019s a fourth thing in there as well, and you used the term <\/span>Shakti<\/span><\/i>, and I noticed the moment that you introduced this fourth thing inside, I got totally turned on. I got so excited. I was like, \u201cThank you, Michael Singer for naming this thing in my experience.\u201d I haven\u2019t really known exactly what to call it. I don\u2019t even know exactly\u2014is it Shakti? How would I know what Shakti is?<\/span><\/p>\n

I want to go into this because, as I said, I think there are people who are hungering to hear their experience named. When we discover Shakti inside, what are we discovering?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MS: <\/b>We have energy inside. The way I teach\u2014and you know that\u2014and that\u2019s one of the reasons why people relate so well to the teachings, is I don\u2019t expect you to be some spiritual person that\u2019s studied all this stuff. And beliefs are a whole other thing. I don\u2019t care if you believe\u2014I don\u2019t want you to believe. I don\u2019t want a mental concept of these things.<\/span><\/p>\n

Do you feel energy inside? And the best way to talk about that is, do you feel shifts in your energy pattern? Are there times in which you just are brimming with energy, like something really nice happened? You say, \u201cI\u2019m so filled with energy, I could take on the world. Everything\u2019s power inside of me.\u201d It could be brimming up inside of you, you feel it tingling inside. That is Shakti. That\u2019s not maybe what a deep yogi says about Shakti, but that is Shakti, that is energy.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

There are other times in which there\u2019s no energy. You feel like a wet dish rag. All of a sudden, the energy goes down, you feel depressed and there\u2019s just no juice. So many words we use for it. Juice\u2014is it flowing inside of you? Those shifts in your energy pattern are shifts in Shakti. There are shifts in the deepest spiritual thing that exists, but you\u2019re feeling it at a surface level and that\u2019s where I like to start. At least admit, everybody feels shifts in their energy patterns, right? Everybody has different times that they feel high energy and they feel low energy. We call it being up, being excited, to be enthused, that\u2019s energy. And we feel it being depressed and being down and being drained, that\u2019s a lack of energy. Okay, so that\u2019s where I start and then we\u2019ll work our way back to the deeper concepts of Shakti.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>If you were to describe right now in this moment, as we\u2019re having this conversation, what does Shakti flow feel like for you right here, as we\u2019re talking?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MS: <\/b>I don\u2019t generally talk about that stuff. But if you work enough on yourself\u2014and what does that mean? It means letting go of yourself, and we\u2019ll be talking about that. The energy flow doesn\u2019t come and go, it\u2019s always there. It can shift a little bit, but it shifts from patterns that are very high and it flows up and it flows to the third eye, into the top of the head. And you feel this constant all day, 24 hours a day, even feel it when you\u2019re sleeping, that this energy is going up. It\u2019s flowing up. It\u2019s always lifting you. You\u2019re always feeling love. If you need energy, you just stop for a second and it comes flowing up inside of you but that\u2019s because you cleansed yourself, you cleaned out what\u2019s blocking the energy.<\/span><\/p>\n

I don\u2019t like to talk about it, that people should feel this or so on, but you can, and you should. You should be able to not block your energy. So, you start to understand the power of the Shakti flow, which is the power of your energy. You have energy. It doesn\u2019t take someone saying something nice to you for you to feel high, or it doesn\u2019t take that somebody says something not nice to you and you feel depressed. Behind that little shift in the humanness, there\u2019s a constant upward flow of energy. It\u2019s always coming out. So that\u2019s best I can say.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Would you think one way to define living untethered is the free flow of Shakti energy through the person who\u2019s living untethered?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MS: <\/b>Tethered means you\u2019re blocked, you\u2019re tied down. I like to think of a hot air balloon. If you were to a ride in a hot air balloon, big, colorful things, you\u2019re not going anywhere while you\u2019re tethered. They even call those tethers\u2014I like it a lot. The cord, the ropes are tying you down to the ground, and they\u2019re tied in. You\u2019re not going to go up, put more helium in, put more hot air in, I don\u2019t care, you\u2019re not going up because you\u2019re tethered.<\/span><\/p>\n

If you cut those tethers, it just goes up automatically. You don\u2019t have to do anything. It\u2019s the nature of things that it will rise because it has helium or hot air in it. So that\u2019s what\u2019s happening to you. There\u2019s nothing wrong with your energy flow. There\u2019s nothing wrong with your Shakti. No one has more Shakti than somebody else. Everyone has infinite, but it\u2019s blocked.<\/span><\/p>\n

The question becomes, how is it blocked? Where is it blocked? Why is it blocked? And what can I do about it? Because what everybody wants, whether they call a Shakti or spirit, whatever you want to call it, what they want is energy. Everybody wants to feel enthused. Everyone wants to be excited about what they\u2019re doing. Everyone wants to feel love. They don\u2019t want to feel depressed and down and that means they want to feel energy.<\/span><\/p>\n

Then the whole discussion about living untethered is first understanding that is what you want. I don\u2019t care. You tell me, \u201cNo, I want a new house.\u201d That\u2019s because you think it\u2019ll make you feel good. \u201cI want a new relationship,\u201d that\u2019s because you think that a new relationship will make you feel more love and make you feel higher. No matter what you tell me you want, you really don\u2019t want that. You want what you think it will give you. You want what you think the effect of that. \u201cI want to travel to Europe, all over the place, and I want to visit the great wonders of the world.\u201d Why? What if you\u2019re depressed and you\u2019re not having a good time? \u201cWell, no, I don\u2019t want that.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

What you\u2019re saying is, \u201cI think that these things will open me, will let me feel more energy and that\u2019s what I want and that\u2019s what everybody\u2019s doing. I don\u2019t care what they\u2019re choosing to do. Everyone has different impressions, ideas of what will turn them on. Look at that term, \u201cTurn me on,\u201d that\u2019s a light switch, that\u2019s energy. \u201cTurn me off.\u201d It goes off. Everyone doesn\u2019t realize that they\u2019re talking about energy.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so basically the idea becomes, how do you untether yourself? You do that by working with your energy. Some people, and there\u2019s nothing wrong with it, I support all spiritual teachings, period. I understand everybody\u2019s different and there are many different teachers and they teach different things. Many teachers, many spiritual teachers teach how to get the energy up, how to reach it up, how to make it flow, how to do different things that will stimulate your energy. All right. And what I like to do, and I\u2019ve always done it this way, to say, \u201cOK, that\u2019s wonderful, but why is it not flowing that way naturally?\u201d Because I happen to know that it should, that there\u2019s so much energy inside of you that you don\u2019t have to do anything. You just have to find out why is it not flowing? That\u2019s a different question as opposed to \u201cHow do I get it up? Why is it not up?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

For example, with a hot air balloon, I just need to put more hot air in it, I need to lighten it. No, you need to cut the tethers. If you cut the tethers, it\u2019s a whole other ball game about how to go up. So that\u2019s why it\u2019s called <\/span>The Untethered Soul<\/span><\/i>, and that\u2019s why it\u2019s called <\/span>Living Untethered<\/span><\/i>, because we\u2019re going to focus on what it is that\u2019s stopping your energy flow, instead of what it is that I can temporarily get a rush from.<\/span><\/p>\n

Nothing wrong with temporary rushes. Right? But I want more permanent stuff. I\u2019m greedy. I want it to stay there all the time and I want you and everybody else to have it there all the time. Like never, ever stop, no matter what happens. I want that underlying energy to keep flowing, lifting you, supporting you and then we can just keep getting higher and higher, by letting go.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I might call that the deepest generosity and not greedy, Michael, but OK. So, I would say a huge focus of the book <\/span>Living Untethered <\/span><\/i>is this identification of what these blockages are. What are these blockages?<\/span><\/p>\n

And you introduce another yoga term in addition to Shakti, which is a term from yoga for energy inside, you introduce the term, <\/span>samskaras<\/span><\/i>. Help us understand what samskaras are and how they block this natural flow of energy.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MS: <\/b>I\u2019ll do it in the simplest form, and the book goes into it in great detail, which is very important, and that is that events come in through our senses. We live in this world and doesn\u2019t matter where we are, events come in through our senses, whether living in the middle of New York or living in Iceland in the country, events come in through our senses.<\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s a beautiful thing, that\u2019s why we have senses so that we can experience this world. If we didn\u2019t have them, there\u2019d be no reason to be here. It\u2019s God\u2019s gift, the universe\u2019s gift, that we get to experience life. They come in through our senses and our consciousness is aware of them. Otherwise, if there are no senses, then I\u2019m not experiencing the world; if there is no consciousness, then I\u2019m not experiencing the world. So, those two things kind of go together as the gift of experience.<\/span><\/p>\n

You\u2019ve returned to the garden. I get to see all these things, hear all these things, experience all these things. They come in and they flow into my consciousness like a river flows into the ocean. They just keep flowing. They don\u2019t stay; there\u2019s not a single thing that stays. Every moment there\u2019s a motion picture going past me. It doesn\u2019t matter if I move, it moves, everything moves. Buddhists say it\u2019s temporal, and they\u2019re right.<\/span><\/p>\n

The world comes in and then it pours into my consciousness. And when it does that, I become a greater being, just as the ocean becomes purified and fulfilled and more whole, because these beautiful rivers flow into it. You become a more whole being, because you\u2019re having experiences. If you experience a squirrel for the first time, you now know more than you knew.<\/span><\/p>\n

You don\u2019t have to think about it. Your experience of squirrels, your experience of all different things. That\u2019s what meant to be going on. That\u2019s pure experience and it\u2019s a very holy and high thing and there\u2019s no problems. You\u2019re just experiencing reality. The problem is that the consciousness\u2014and this goes very deep\u2014the consciousness will tend sometimes to not be comfortable, to not be open, to feel some resistance to what its experiencing.<\/span><\/p>\n

Maybe you know something about that, all right? It just doesn\u2019t feel comfortable letting this come in. I use the example of rattlesnakes. I always use that example\u2014who wants to be standing around a rattling rattlesnake? It\u2019s not comfortable when it comes in, so you don\u2019t let it all the way in. I\u2019m not saying you have to go pick up the snake, but if you\u2019re experiencing that at least experience this, so you can make some good decisions and not say, \u201cNo, I don\u2019t want to experience this,\u201d and that\u2019s not a mental thing.<\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s an energetic thing inside where you resist; it\u2019s called resistance. You use your will. And that\u2019s a whole other question, what will is. You use your will in there to resist what\u2019s coming in. Notice you\u2019re not resisting the actual object outside; you\u2019re resisting when it comes in. And you\u2019re experiencing it inside, then you push it away.<\/span><\/p>\n

Okay, that act of resistance keeps the impression that got made. The outside came in, made an impression on your mind, it keeps it in your mind. It keeps it there, you know that. You walk away, the rattlesnake crawls away, but it didn\u2019t crawl away inside of you. You\u2019re all scared. Why are you scared? There\u2019s no rattlesnake, because you kept it. You kept it in your image. You don\u2019t do that with the white lines on the road, they go right through. All kinds of trees you drive by, all kinds of cars you pass, all kinds of things go on.<\/span><\/p>\n

I once said that we\u2019re 99.9 percent enlightened. Okay, I guarantee you, Tami, 99.9 percent of everything that comes into your senses passes right through, but then there\u2019s the rattle snake. There\u2019s something that didn\u2019t feel comfortable; therefore, it drew your attention. It distracted you and you resisted it. You used your will, this power of will to resist it. So, it got blocked inside your mind and your heart, inside your emotions. That is what a samskara is, a blocked internal experience that you did not let go through. Therefore, it stayed in there and it will stay in there your whole life.<\/span><\/p>\n

What your mommy did to you and what daddy did and this happened, and fact that you didn\u2019t get the color bicycle you wanted, it\u2019s still in there. Go ask Freud; he\u2019ll tell you. That\u2019s what he realized. He didn\u2019t get deep into yoga and spirituality, but he realized that they\u2019re in there holding this stuff, suppressing this stuff, repressing, suppressing. I add a word to that. Repression, suppression, those are very deep things psychologically.<\/span><\/p>\n

There\u2019s a thing called resistance. Resistance, you don\u2019t have to suppress it, it doesn\u2019t have to be clinically suppressed. If you touch it, you own it. So, when it\u2019s coming through and you say, \u201cNo, not on my watch,\u201d that thing stays inside. That\u2019s what a samskara is, a caught rendering of the world inside your mind, that a particular object that caught your attention so much that you held onto it and therefore it didn\u2019t pass through, and it will be there until you let go.<\/span><\/p>\n

You\u2019ll be exerting that energy for the rest of your life to hold every single thing that you resisted. If somebody says something to you and you\u2019re not sure what they said, but you didn\u2019t like it, I guarantee you next time you see that person that\u2019s coming back up. You understand that?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Yes. Michael, I want to take an example that I think is in our collective awareness, and I want you to help us with it and help me with it. Because here I\u2019ve been reading <\/span>Living Untethered <\/span><\/i>in a very systematic and serious way and really trying to put it into practice.<\/span><\/p>\n

I got an email from someone about a terrible news event, a terrible atrocity, another school shooting. I thought to myself, how would I experience this from a place of pure experience, not resisting this news? How does someone do that? I\u2019d love to hear from you on that.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MS: <\/b>That\u2019s a beautiful question. You asked me why I wrote the book. Because of these deep questions, if we\u2019re going to really try to work with this honestly, then there are deep questions like that. Life brings this stuff up. In the highest state, this is how a very evolved high open being handles this. The first thing is, if it didn\u2019t come into your mind, even though it happened, unfortunately it doesn\u2019t make any difference to you; you didn\u2019t know about it, it didn\u2019t come in.<\/span><\/p>\n

But now it did come in. The news brought it in, or you were closer, unfortunately. So, it comes in, the minute it comes in you have to realize it\u2019s reality. It\u2019s not about like or dislike or want or not want or right or wrong, it happened, or it wouldn\u2019t be in here. Okay, so the first thing you do is honor and respect the reality that took place. Doesn\u2019t mean you won\u2019t do something about it, it doesn\u2019t mean anything. It just means it happened, right?<\/span><\/p>\n

Evolution says that we\u2019re supposed to be the highest species. What does it mean to be the highest species? Adaptability to your environment. You understand that? You can adapt your environment. \u201cWell, this is my environment right now. This took place. It came into me, and I have to honor and respect and accept the reality of it.\u201d It sounds terrible. People don\u2019t want to accept the reality of it, but not accepting the reality of it didn\u2019t change it one iota. All right, it did really happen. And so you come and you let it pass in and you feel the terrible vibration that\u2019s involved with that. Everything has a different vibration and you\u2019re capable of handling that vibration.<\/span><\/p>\n

You\u2019re not freaking out; you\u2019re not closing down. This is part of reality, yin and yang, it comes in and you experience it. All right, believe it or not, that is the highest thing you can do to help. If you can\u2019t handle it, you can\u2019t help. You\u2019re too busy trying to do something to make yourself feel better. You understand that? Because \u201cI can\u2019t handle this. I can\u2019t handle this.\u201d Then what are you going to do? You try to talk, you try to do this, you try to do that. In essence, \u201cI can\u2019t handle it, something has to change so that I can handle it.\u201d That\u2019s not dealing with the situation; that\u2019s dealing with your inability to handle the situation, and those are very different things.<\/span><\/p>\n

I always use this example: let\u2019s say there\u2019s a car accident and people are hurt, but you can\u2019t stand the sight of blood. You\u2019re of no use. You\u2019re of no use to that accident. You can\u2019t help anybody. I can stand the sight of blood, I don\u2019t like it. I don\u2019t have to like it. I don\u2019t have to want it to happen, right, but I can handle it. Now you can come forward and help people that are having a problem.<\/span><\/p>\n

The first thing a spiritual person does, who understands the depth of the truth of life, is to accept the reality that it took place. Now what? That doesn\u2019t mean that\u2019s the end of it, acceptance doesn\u2019t mean walk away, don\u2019t do anything, but I\u2019m not doing anything personal. I was personally able to handle the reality of the situation. Now, what can I do to help? Not help me, not help my anger, not help my resistance, not help my hatred. That\u2019s not going on. What can I do to actually help the real situation? What can I do to help them pass gun laws or do whatever it is that needs to be done?<\/span><\/p>\n

If you\u2019re in denial, then you can\u2019t help. What if, unfortunately, you\u2019re very close to that situation and you freeze and, \u201cOh my God, no,\u201d then you\u2019re of no use. You can\u2019t do it. It starts with acceptance, but it doesn\u2019t end up meaning you don\u2019t do anything.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>But now let\u2019s talk about that person who has a strong, emotional response\u2014you said we\u2019d talk about emotions\u2014and part of them is like, \u201cNo, the sadness and the rage I feel, I don\u2019t know if I can handle this,\u201d and they are resisting in some way, because the amount of heartbreak is so extreme that they do close down in some way. How could this person do this inner work that you\u2019re describing right in that moment when they\u2019re noticing?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MS: <\/b>As I would expect, you asked the deep questions. If you read the book\u2014and you did\u2014I almost want to sit there and say it\u2019s too late. In other words, if you have not worked with yourself sufficiently to where you can handle reality, you\u2019re going to get lost at times. And that\u2019s fine, that\u2019s just part of your growth, all right.<\/span><\/p>\n

If you\u2019re riding a bicycle as a kid and you fall over, don\u2019t come to me and say, \u201cOh, I shouldn\u2019t have fallen over.\u201d No, that\u2019s how you learned your balance. You need to go through situations. So, in the book I talk about what\u2019s called low-hanging fruit, you of course, went right away to the very difficult hanging fruit.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I did.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MS: <\/b>I know.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>But we can also talk about low-hanging fruit too.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MS: <\/b>Well, I\u2019m going to do that as the answer to your question. What you do is you realize there are things that are going to go on in life that I\u2019m going to have trouble handling. A divorce, somebody dies, I get sick, all kinds of things go on in life. If I\u2019m going to do well in life, I have to start by being able to handle reality and then working with it to raise it.<\/span><\/p>\n

Remember, acceptance and surrender do not mean that you do not interact with life. They are not giving up, they are not a white flag, it\u2019s not that kind of surrender. What you\u2019re doing is surrendering your resistance to the reality of the situation. That\u2019s a very different kind of surrender. Then you are dealing with the situation to raise it. By all means, be an activist, put your whole heart into it, but not because you can\u2019t handle it, because then you can\u2019t think straight, then you\u2019re making all kinds of decisions that are not really productive.<\/span><\/p>\n

What do you do in order to handle things? And that\u2019s what you just asked me. You start practicing, like you learn to play tennis. You learn to play the piano. You learn anything. You have to start from where you\u2019re at. We\u2019re not going to make believe we\u2019re somewhere else, putting on a fake front, all right? You start from where you\u2019re at and you sit there and say, \u201cDo I resist even little things? Or is it just these giant things that I can\u2019t handle?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cWell, the other day it was raining, and I wanted to go play a sport and it disappointed me because I really wanted to be with the person.\u201d OK, can we handle that? Can we learn to handle that? Because if you can\u2019t handle the weather, you\u2019re in trouble. You understand that, because you\u2019re not going to change the weather, it has nothing to do with you. If you\u2019re supposed to be the highest species on the planet, this thing about adaptability to reality, to the environment, we can start with the weather.<\/span><\/p>\n

I really see the weather as a tremendous chance for growth. I\u2019m not kidding. \u201cIt\u2019s hot.\u201d Yes, it\u2019s hot. Can you handle it? \u201cNo. I have to complain all the time and freak out all the time and get all sick and get myself upset.\u201d Well, you don\u2019t have to do that. You can sit there and say, \u201cAll right, today it\u2019s hot. Am I okay with that?\u201d You better say yes because saying no doesn\u2019t make it not hot. It\u2019s so simple and silly, all right.<\/span><\/p>\n

The same thing with the rain. I\u2019ve pulled up somewhere, I need to make a delivery, which means getting out of my car, and it started pouring, but there\u2019s a time factor and I have to be there. \u201cTami\u2019s waiting for me, and so I can\u2019t mess around with this. OK, I\u2019m going to get wet.\u201d Can you handle that? Or is this a freak experience that for the rest of the day, you tell everybody how terrible it was and you\u2019re afraid\u2014this is silly. You start to practice little things, the low-hanging fruit.<\/span><\/p>\n

And how do you do that? You let go, you just look at that part of you. It\u2019s not like because you decide to do this there won\u2019t be a part of you that doesn\u2019t resist. It\u2019s trying to resist. You have a habit of resistance. We all do. You have habits of resistance. Let them go. How you do it? There are all kinds of techniques: breath or a mantra; it could be positive thinking. I don\u2019t generally have to do it, but I still use positive thinking. That\u2019s a good foundational thing. Every time I have a negative thought, I replace it with a positive one.<\/span><\/p>\n

In the book I give the example that it\u2019s hot out. If I feel really hot and I want to complain about it\u2014I like astronomy\u2014I ask myself, \u201cWhy is it hot? What\u2019s making it hot. Is there a heater somewhere?\u201d I say, \u201cYeah, 93 million miles away there\u2019s a star. 93 million miles. It\u2019s hot enough to make me hot here on the planet.\u201d Wow. I ask everybody, I am in Gainesville 350 miles away, 250 miles away, \u201cHow big would a fire have to be in Miami for me to feel the heat in Gainesville?\u201d Are you ready? The entire city could catch fire and I wouldn\u2019t feel a single thing. And that thing is 93 million miles away and I\u2019m complaining about the heat.<\/span><\/p>\n

Now you start to marvel: \u201cIsn\u2019t that neat, I can feel the heat of a star.\u201d That\u2019s an example of how you start to work with yourself. You\u2019re not lying to yourself. You\u2019re just replacing this lower energy of resistance with an acceptance, with an awe, until eventually you do that with everything. You just do that with more and more things. And that\u2019s how you work with yourself.<\/span><\/p>\n

We\u2019ll talk about another low-hanging fruit a little bit later, but if you\u2019ll do that, you\u2019re going to find out that all of a sudden something happens\u2014not as big as the shooting\u2014but something happens in your life that\u2019s bigger than the weather: somebody doesn\u2019t show up when they were supposed to. Somebody says to you, \u201cThey\u2019re my favorite.\u201d \u201cListen, I don\u2019t have time right now, but I want to talk to you when you come home tonight.\u201d Oh, you\u2019re not going to have a good day. Well, they want to talk to you because they\u2019re going to take you on a trip and they want to know which place you want to go, but your mind\u2019s not going to do that; it\u2019s going to freak you out. Well, there, that\u2019s a little bit bigger than low-hanging fruit, but it\u2019s not as bad as what we\u2019re talking about.<\/span><\/p>\n

Next thing you know, it doesn\u2019t bother you. You all of a sudden sit there, \u201cOkay, I\u2019ll see you then.\u201d And all day, it doesn\u2019t bother you because you learn to let go of being bothered. My favorite line in the book\u2014and when I talked with Oprah, she said it was her favorite line also\u2014is as follows: \u201cThe moment in front of you is not bothering you. You are bothering yourself about the moment in front of you.\u201d I want people to contemplate that because that\u2019s always the condition.<\/span><\/p>\n

The driver in front of you that didn\u2019t use his blinker is not bothering you; you\u2019re bothering yourself. The blinker didn\u2019t get used, the car turned, whatever, now you\u2019re bothering yourself for the next five minutes: \u201cWhy don\u2019t they use their blinkers? What\u2019s going on?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

You\u2019ll find, if you think about it and contemplate it, that you are causing all this bothering. And so if you start with the small stuff and you work on yourself, that\u2019s what it\u2019s called, working on yourself, you\u2019re going to find out amazingly something will happen that used to freak you out or at least knock you off center, you wouldn\u2019t even remember that it used to.<\/span><\/p>\n

You just reached a level inside, of letting go of that baby inside that can\u2019t handle things and you become a stronger, greater person.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> I wanted to ask you, Michael, about positive thinking, and then you offer another technique as well: working with a mantra, some kind of repetitive phrase. And then the third option as we\u2019re practicing, not being disturbed by what\u2019s happening is that we can actually work with the process of transmutation.<\/span><\/p>\n

Let\u2019s put the process of transmutation to the side because I want to go deep into that and understand what you mean by that. But in terms of positive thinking and the repetition of a mantra, there\u2019s a part of me that\u2019s always thought, isn\u2019t that a form of suppression? Isn\u2019t that a form of like pushing something down? It\u2019s not really going to change the actual patterns of resistance inside me if I\u2019m just making replacements at the surface level. I\u2019d really love to know what you think about that.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MS: <\/b>Very good. Let\u2019s start with positive thinking, and I make the point very strong in the book. You\u2019re not trying to not have the negative thoughts come up. You\u2019re trying to replace, not beat down, not stop, but give an alternative for your consciousness. It\u2019s sitting there saying, \u201cOh my God, it\u2019s raining. What the heck am I going to do?\u201d Just put in there: \u201cI love the rain. I love the rain. Imagine if it didn\u2019t rain, we wouldn\u2019t have crops. There are probably farmers that are so happy right now.\u201d\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

It can still say, \u201cI don\u2019t like the rain. I don\u2019t want to have the rain.\u201d I don\u2019t want you pushing that away. This is not about suppression. I give a whole discussion in the book about automatic thoughts and willful thoughts, right? That\u2019s an automatic thought, you didn\u2019t decide to be upset by the rain, it started talking about it as a habit that you have. It\u2019s a mental habit. You have the right to create another thought willfully that just says, \u201cI\u2019d rather think like this.\u201d I don\u2019t just throw the other thought away, over time you\u2019ve carved a new channel, neuro pathways, call it whatever you want.<\/span><\/p>\n

I live in the country. If it were to rain a lot, it might tick a little pathway through the grass that\u2019s been mowed, and it\u2019ll flow down the hill that way. Next time it\u2019ll definitely go that way. Third time it will cause a rut. And that\u2019s how you build a habit of thinking.<\/span><\/p>\n

By being willing to create this positive thought\u2014not fighting\u2014but just to create a positive thought, put your consciousness there, pay attention more there than you do to the other. The other can still be there, that\u2019s the key. You\u2019re not saying, \u201cGet out of my mind, I don\u2019t like you.\u201d You\u2019re saying, \u201cI like this better.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

If you pay attention to that, over time I guarantee you the positive will win over the negative. Light dispels darkness. Positive energy is much more enjoyable than negative energy. It is just like eating something that doesn\u2019t make you feel well, but you\u2019re in the habit of doing it. You have to replace that by eating something healthy, which may not taste as good, but over time you feel better, and it becomes a natural thing to let that go. That\u2019s what positive thinking is.<\/span><\/p>\n

More so with mantra\u2014I teach this all the time. People say, \u201cI\u2019m saying my mantra: God, God.\u201d No, you\u2019re using a sledgehammer inside your head. You\u2019re using the mantra to beat down your thoughts. No, no, no, no.<\/span><\/p>\n

I make it very clear in the book. Your consciousness is what determines what you\u2019re experiencing. If I focus on a picture on the wall, then I focus on another one, where I shift my consciousness determines what I\u2019m experiencing. If you\u2019re experiencing some negative thoughts or some negative feelings or along with it, whatever. But as I say, instead of positive thinking, if you\u2019ve got that mantra going on in there, you just shift your consciousness back to the mantra. You pay attention to mantra.<\/span><\/p>\n

If there are two pictures on the wall and I\u2019m looking at one, I don\u2019t have to rip it off the wall to look at the other. I don\u2019t have to throw it away or do anything. I just shift the focus of my consciousness to the other. It\u2019s the same thing inside. If these are the thoughts that are going on inside, but I bother to instill the repetition of mantra behind a different layer of my mind, if you will, I don\u2019t touch the other thoughts.<\/span><\/p>\n

I don\u2019t want you fighting with your mind, ever. I\u2019m just shifting my consciousness to whatever the mantra is; so, basically, it\u2019s not fighting, it\u2019s not suppressing. You should definitely not suppress, and what will happen is because resting back into this positive layer of your mind, the mantra, the other will fall away. Why? Because light dispels darkness, high energy is more powerful than negative energy. People don\u2019t know that, because they\u2019re used to putting their conscious into bad feelings and bad things. If you put it higher, it falls off naturally.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now, what if you put some positive thought in your mind and you hear a voice inside that just says, \u201cWell, that\u2019s not true. Come on, really? Whatever.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MS: <\/b>Good. Kiss it on the head.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>You can\u2019t really invest in this new positive thought because it feels phony.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MS: <\/b>I want it to. I like that. There\u2019s no problem with that. I\u2019m telling you, if I\u2019m eating food that tastes really good and I feel good after eating it, but an hour later I\u2019m sick, OK. Then somebody gives me something that\u2019s holistic\u2014it\u2019s not going to taste as good, but I have to make myself eat it. In order to shift from something that\u2019s making me not well to something that in the end will make me well.<\/span><\/p>\n

It takes some will; it takes some effort. It doesn\u2019t mean I have to deny that the other tasted better, I don\u2019t have to deny that I liked it. I have somebody who\u2019s a drug addict, who\u2019s caught on hard drugs, heroin or something, they want to do it, they have to, they want that. If they want to go through withdrawal, they\u2019re not going to sit there during the withdrawal and say, \u201cI don\u2019t want the hit, I don\u2019t want the drug. I want the drug.\u201d I\u2019m not lying to myself, I want the drug, but I want more to get off of it because it opens up a whole new life for me.<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s the same thing with what you just said. The mind is in the habit of complaining. The mind\u2019s in the habit of not liking something. \u201cI don\u2019t like what she said. I don\u2019t care what you say.\u201d \u201cI can handle it. It\u2019s okay. Let\u2019s give her some space.\u201d \u201cI don\u2019t want to give her space.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s like, if you can learn to give it some energy at a higher level, over time the other will fall away. I don\u2019t care that it\u2019s saying, \u201cI don\u2019t like it, I don\u2019t believe what you\u2019re saying, I don\u2019t believe in God.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

I remember the first time that\u2014Yogananda is my guru. And he is very, very much into God. I wasn\u2019t. I didn\u2019t ever think about it my whole life. Then I got an experience\u2014if you read <\/span>The Surrender Experiment<\/span><\/i>, it explains all that. I had this experience and all of a sudden, I\u2019m meditating, I\u2019m living in the woods, and it happened very suddenly for me.<\/span><\/p>\n

I remember the moment that I was standing up in the loft where my meditation pillow was and my mind stood up and it said, \u201cBut I don\u2019t even believe in God.\u201d I just stopped for a second and looked at it and said, \u201cHere, God, here\u2019s the part of me that doesn\u2019t believe in you.\u201d It never said another word from that moment forward. I\u2019m just using the example of God. I don\u2019t really talk about that.<\/span><\/p>\n

It could be anything. Just be willing to see that you have a habitual way of thinking, a habitual way of feeling and a habitual personality that you built through the samskaras, through the stuff you stored, that you liked and didn\u2019t like and now they\u2019re expressing themselves through you. That\u2019s what you are now. The sum of those samskaras, things that happened to you that you liked, you\u2019re acting that way. Things that happen to you that you didn\u2019t like, you\u2019re acting that way.<\/span><\/p>\n

At some point, if you really want to grow, if you want to untether yourself, you realize that\u2019s not going to make it because I\u2019m just going to keep fighting with the world to match me, as opposed to changing me. You remember Rumi? \u201cYesterday I was clever, so I was trying to change the world. Today I\u2019m wise, so I\u2019m trying to change myself.\u201d That is essential for spiritual growth. If you\u2019ve not reached that point that you realize it\u2019s not about getting what I want and making myself feel good, it\u2019s about changing all these patterns I have inside myself that are causing me to feel bad. <\/span>\u201c<\/b>I feel bad unless I get what I want.\u201d I don\u2019t want you to feel bad. I want you to feel good all the time.<\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s what you do with the part of you that is still saying, \u201cI don\u2019t believe in this.\u201d I don\u2019t care. You can say all you want. \u201cYes, the sun\u2019s 93 million miles away\u201d\u2014I used to say that. \u201cThe sun\u2019s 93 million miles away. What\u2019s that got to do with me?\u201d It has a lot to do with you. \u201cBig deal. There are 2 trillion galaxies out there and I\u2019m just sitting in a little planet speeding through space. It has nothing to do with me.\u201d Yes, it does. I don\u2019t care what you say\u2014it\u2019s called reality. It\u2019s big.<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s good to think about that stuff, but at first your little self is going to keep expressing itself. What I want, and all the really great teachers teach this, is just be in a seat of consciousness, witness consciousness, notice that\u2019s going on. No problem with that, he [the little self] is that way. All right, he was brought up that way, it\u2019s his tendencies, but I want to raise him. It\u2019s not wrong that he or she keeps saying that, it\u2019s just that you are willing to stay higher. You\u2019re willing to stay behind it and raise yourself all the time.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Is there a mantra, Michael, that you recommend or that you found effective for people to use?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MS: <\/b>I, of course, came up through yoga\u2014you all know that. So, I have yoga mantras, whatever it is, Sanskrit. But I recommend [this one]: \u201cI can handle this. I can handle this. I can handle this. I can handle this.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

What a wonderful thing to be going on in the back of your mind when your mind says, \u201cI can\u2019t handle this.\u201d \u201cI can handle this.\u201d For example, as you were saying, someone might keep saying, \u201cI can\u2019t handle this. I can\u2019t believe she said that.\u201d \u201cI can handle this.\u201d Whoa, just shift your consciousness off this lower vibration of energy that you\u2019re accustomed to working with to a higher vibration. I\u2019m telling you it will fall off over time. It will just fall off. How\u2019s that?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>It\u2019s beautiful. I love it. And then I\u2019d love to hear more about this word and the process of transmutation. We\u2019re not suppressing, we\u2019re not expressing when a difficult emotional experience arises, how do we transmute it?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MS: <\/b>We skipped one step. You said I gave three techniques. It was positive thinking, mantra, and witness consciousness. In order to talk about transmutation, I have to talk about witness consciousness first. So, what is the difference between positive thinking, mantra, and witness consciousness?<\/span><\/p>\n

Positive thinking is your mind is creating automated thoughts. It just does it by itself. You didn\u2019t tell it to you. You wouldn\u2019t ever tell your mind to do what it\u2019s doing, nobody would, it just does it by itself because it\u2019s expressing samskaras. That\u2019s what it\u2019s doing, your mind is trying to get these samskaras out, and so it\u2019s trying to release the energy, but a lot of it is negative energy or a lot of it is\u2014we didn\u2019t talk about positive samskaras, which is, something happened that you really, really, really liked, so you held onto to it.<\/span><\/p>\n

Buddhists call it clinging\u2014I know you know about that, in the sense that you studied that stuff. Buddhas have this word called \u201cclinging,\u201d which just is perfect. So, if something happens, somebody says something nice to you, you have a nice experience, you don\u2019t want to let it go. You want it to happen again. So, the next thing you know, you\u2019re holding it in your mind and you\u2019re comparing everything against that. And you can\u2019t ever be happy again, unless the exact same thing happens again. But the exact same thing can\u2019t happen again because this is the second time it happened. There\u2019s no surprise concept to it, there\u2019s no beginner mind. So, you really messed yourself up by holding onto positive things, the same as holding onto negative things. Basically, you have these samskaras, and they\u2019re expressing themselves through your mind. That\u2019s why you feel desires, that\u2019s why you feel fears. That\u2019s why you have all these likes and dislikes.<\/span><\/p>\n

Positive thinking is to put some willful thoughts on top of that, so that you raise those thoughts, so that they can in the end, be higher. Mantra is getting a layer of mind behind you, it\u2019s not the same layer, you are able to think of two layers at once. You read a book, the next thing you know, you didn\u2019t read a darn thing. You have to go back and read. You thought you were reading it, but your mind was very busy doing something else. There are layers of our mind, get a mantra going in a layer. And then when something negative is coming in or whatever, shift your consciousness in a mantra.<\/span><\/p>\n

The next layer, the next deep technique is witness consciousness. Why is it so deep? It is not about doing anything with mind. It\u2019s not about replacing mind with positive thoughts; it\u2019s not about shifting back to a layer of mind that\u2019s deeper. It\u2019s about sitting in the seat of consciousness and being willing to watch what your mind\u2019s doing. It\u2019s being negative. It\u2019s being positive. It\u2019s upset today. Your emotions aren\u2019t good. You just notice. People say, \u201cWell, how can you just notice?\u201d Everybody\u2019s noticing\u2014otherwise, how would you know it\u2019s there? \u201cMy mind\u2019s bothering me today.\u201d How do you know? I don\u2019t know your mind\u2019s bothering you, because you\u2019re in there. Be the one that\u2019s in there. Don\u2019t mess with the mind. Don\u2019t mess with the emotions. Don\u2019t suppress them or express them. Just for the moment, are you willing to relax and release and be in there and notice that this is going on inside of me?<\/span><\/p>\n

I heard a little clip from Eckhart Tolle, who I respect a great deal, and what he said was, when something happens and it is drawing you into it, you can see you\u2019re being drawn out of your witness consciousness into a desire, into a fear\u2014he was so beautiful\u2014he said, \u201cJust give me two minutes. You can do it.\u201d When it\u2019s all said and done, I don\u2019t teach like that\u2014I\u2019m tougher. He said, \u201cJust for two minutes, don\u2019t go do it yet.\u201d That\u2019s really beautiful. That\u2019s very tolerant. And it\u2019s a way of sitting here saying, \u201cI can do that. Here we go. I\u2019m okay, I can do that. I can be here and see this desire or see this fear or see this messed up pattern that\u2019s drawing me into it.\u201d It draws you into it, it has power because you\u2019re so interested in it. Can you wait a little bit?<\/span><\/p>\n

I don\u2019t care how you do it. Eckhart\u2019s a great teacher, and there are many others, many, many great teachers. They all have different techniques. Are you willing to do the technique that gives you the intention of letting go of the pull that these lower aspects of your being have on your consciousness?<\/span><\/p>\n

How do you do that? Relax. Ultimately, you relax. I notice this thought pattern. It has always bothered me. And now somebody said something and it\u2019s bothering me again. Are you willing to notice it and not do anything about it? Are you willing to just relax? But it won\u2019t relax. I know it won\u2019t relax. I didn\u2019t ask it to relax. It\u2019s not going to relax. You can relax. You, who\u2019s experiencing it, can just fall back behind it.<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s really beautiful. People talk about, \u201cBut shouldn\u2019t I experience my emotions?\u201d Well, that can mean a lot of different things. It can mean going down there, get into them feel every aspect of them, enrich. Or it can mean I\u2019m back here experiencing the fact that there\u2019s an emotion going on down there. I\u2019m not stopping it, I\u2019m not doing anything, I\u2019m experiencing the emotion. I\u2019m experiencing the thought. That\u2019s a very high state; that\u2019s witness consciousness. From there we can talk about transmutation, but I\u2019ll stop for a second in case you want to ask something in between.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>No, I think I\u2019m tracking with you perfectly here. I love this notion also of falling back. There\u2019s something, whenever I hear you say the word \u201cback\u201d I notice I feel more spacious and feel in a deeper part of this seat of awareness, the \u201cback\u201d word.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MS: <\/b>Again, remember, I started by saying that it turns out that distraction is a very spiritual word. Your thoughts are distracting you; they\u2019re pulling your consciousness into them. And the very fact that these are the thoughts that are being created, there\u2019s a reason for that because you stored stuff inside from before that\u2019s not settled and now it\u2019s complaining or it\u2019s needing or wanting. Therefore, it draws your consciousness into it, because it interests you.<\/span><\/p>\n

If you go down there and if that\u2019s what you mean by experiencing your emotions, they\u2019ve become a pattern. You\u2019re feeding them, but you don\u2019t suppress your emotions. You don\u2019t not experience your emotions; you just relax in the face of them. Most people, they have to practice doing that with low-hanging fruit. You can relax in the face of every single thought you have and every single emotion that comes up inside of you. You are capable. The one who\u2019s experiencing it can just say, \u201cI can handle this. I can handle this.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

That doesn\u2019t just mean the outside world you can handle; you can handle the inside world. You relax. And what\u2019s going to happen is the pull it has on you is diminished because you\u2019re letting go. You\u2019re not going into it. You\u2019re letting go. And you\u2019re going to find out if you let go, the hot air balloon goes up. And that\u2019s what I mean by behind, relax and lean back. If you let go of the tether, this thing goes back there naturally, you don\u2019t have to do anything. \u201cI have to try. What does Michael mean by going back there?\u201d No, no, no, no. Don\u2019t you dare think about that. If you let go of what\u2019s pulling you down, you will go up, it naturally happens.<\/span><\/p>\n

Now let\u2019s talk about transmutation. The energy is expressing itself because you stored it in there. Every way you think is \u201cI\u2019ve been this way since I\u2019m little\u201d; that\u2019s because something happened and you got patterns. You have patterns that are making you express that way. The mind is trying to push these samskaras, these block patterns out.<\/span><\/p>\n

Your mind is not your enemy. Your lower heart is not your enemy. They are actually the same as your body, trying to push impurities out, and that\u2019s why you get a fever or that\u2019s why a boil comes up or something. We don\u2019t like it, but it\u2019s trying to push impurities out, correct? Your mind is doing the exact same thing, and your emotions, your heart is doing the exact same thing. It\u2019s saying you stored all this stuff inside of me, stuff you didn\u2019t like, stuff you\u2019re not comfortable with, and I need to push it out.<\/span><\/p>\n

You end up thinking about it. Right away it comes into your mind when somebody says something from these samskaras from the past. So, if you can learn to not get pulled down into them, but to allow them to be and just let it come up, the natural process of transmutation is going to take place. What does that mean? The energy was lower. It was anger. It was fear. It was self-consciousness. It was embarrassment. That\u2019s what it was, that\u2019s what got stimulated from inside, from the past.<\/span><\/p>\n

You only get embarrassed because you know to get embarrassed. A child didn\u2019t know about it, they cry in public, all right? You get embarrassed because you had a situation, somebody yelled at you because of the way you behaved or because you lost a boyfriend or a girlfriend, things happened that made you realize, \u201cWell this is embarrassing.\u201d Now that\u2019s the energy that\u2019s there.<\/span><\/p>\n

What are you going to do about it? Get into it, change the behavior. Apologize. Fine, you can do all that. You\u2019re a human. Or relax and realize this is stuff from the past that\u2019s coming up inside of you. \u201cI\u2019m sitting on a little planet, spinning the middle of nowhere; I can handle it. I can handle it.\u201d And so you relax. Well, what does it do? What happens to that embarrassing energy? All of a sudden there\u2019s nothing pushing it back down. There\u2019s nothing resisting at all. It comes up, \u201cWhoa.\u201d It comes up. \u201cBut now I feel a lot of embarrassment.\u201d Relax. \u201cNow I feel the most embarrassment I ever felt. My God, it\u2019s really hot.\u201d Relax. Keep your hands off. And all of a sudden it becomes love. The energy came up to a higher level. It\u2019s all the same energy. There\u2019s only one energy in there. It\u2019s just expressing itself differently because of these different patterns you carved inside yourself. As you let it go, now it doesn\u2019t have to be in there anymore.<\/span><\/p>\n

The energy that\u2019s behind it, pushing this samskara, this pattern out of the way, all of a sudden you start to feel Shakti. It will turn into Shakti. That\u2019s called transmuting the nature of the energy. It was expressing itself as anger, it was expressing itself as fear, expressing itself as embarrassment or guilt. And because I was willing to say, \u201cCome on up, come on. I know I stored you in there,\u201d get the blockage out of the way\u2014behind the blockage is Shakti and you will start to feel that Shakti more and more until eventually you realize that\u2019s what this is all about.<\/span><\/p>\n

This is about me letting go of those blockages, but I don\u2019t have to go down there and get them and find them and pull them out. No, no, no, no. The energy, the Shakti flow, the energy flow underneath is always pushing up. To me, that\u2019s what Christ meant when he said, \u201cI stand at the door and knock. Whoever will open I will come in.\u201d That\u2019s what Shakti\u2019s saying to you, \u201cI\u2019m trying to come up. You keep pushing me back down. And I\u2019m the most beautiful thing that you could ever experience. I\u2019m the source of love. I\u2019m the divinity inside of you. Why do you keep pushing this stuff on top of me?\u201d \u201cWell, because I haven\u2019t learned not to because I don\u2019t know how to handle different things.\u201d \u201cWell, handle this, handle the feeling of embarrassment.\u201d \u201cOK, I\u2019m going to do it this time.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Relax, mantra, whatever, be conscious, feel it coming up. And you\u2019re going to feel the tendency to resist. Don\u2019t. This is growth. This is the fire of yoga. It comes up, and I\u2019m telling you, if you will keep your hands off, next thing you know, it made you high. Next thing you know, you feel all this rush of energy.<\/span><\/p>\n

Transmutation is a very beautiful thing. Ultimately, what you want to do is keep your hands off in there and let the Shakti do her work. Let this energy push its way up. And as it releases, not only will you feel the rush at that time\u2014but I don\u2019t like to say that, because then people say, \u201cWell, I tried it. I didn\u2019t feel the rush.\u201d Come on guys, it takes a while. You\u2019ve been screwing yourself up for a long time, all right? You\u2019ve been controlling everything and pushing it all down there and then trying to change the world to fit you.<\/span><\/p>\n

There\u2019s a whole other pattern. This is you saying, \u201cThe world is reality, and I should be able to handle it, and so therefore I\u2019m going to let go. Then I\u2019ll deal with it.\u201d I always have to say that now because people misunderstand. Of course, you deal and interact with the world, but not to protect yourself, not because you need something.<\/span><\/p>\n

You\u2019ve let go of those patterns, and now all that\u2019s flowing inside of you is love and beauty and inspiration. I want you to come help me. I want you to go out there and deal with these different situations. I want all my senators and congressmen and presidents to be those people that are very high and clear and acting totally selflessly, not because they need anything. Wouldn\u2019t that be beautiful? That\u2019s John Lennon, \u201cImagine.\u201d\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> There\u2019s one other thread I want to pick up, Michael. You talked about the lower heart, how our lower heart responds in situations. And in the book <\/span>Living Untethered<\/span><\/i>, you describe our spiritual heart, the higher nature of our heart. And I found this one of the most inspiring parts of <\/span>Living Untethered<\/span><\/i>, and I wonder if you can introduce people to their spiritual heart.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MS: <\/b>You have to start with the lower heart. We\u2019ve talked a lot about samskaras, about patterns that you stored inside yourself. I can tell you right now that if you go back to your high school reunion, which I think it\u2019d be very brave to do. When you go back to your high school reunion, you\u2019re going to meet people that you had situations with 20, 30 years ago. And you\u2019re going to feel the same thing about them that you felt 20, 30 years ago.<\/span><\/p>\n

You remember \u201cThis is the person who stole my girlfriend. This is the person who dissed me when I was\u2014\u201d blah, blah, blah, blah. You have these patterns, these samskaras, that are blocking your heart and your feelings and your emotions. And your love and your hates and dislikes, et cetera, et cetera are going to be guided by that.<\/span><\/p>\n

Here was somebody who was really nice to you in high school; you think they\u2019re wonderful. You don\u2019t know anything about them, haven\u2019t seen them for 30 years; they can be a mass murderer. All right, here\u2019s somebody that hurt you, and something happened in high school\u2014or, competitively, they always won and you didn\u2019t do as well, you were number two. You\u2019re going to feel a certain way when you see people. That\u2019s because you stored this stuff in there like we said.<\/span><\/p>\n

That is now going to determine what you call your heart. Your heart will open in the presence of situations that hit your samskaras in a way that you\u2019re comfortable, and therefore you feel safe, and therefore it opens, and you feel love. Shakti will come up into your heart and it will flow out toward that person. That\u2019s the lower heart. That\u2019s the human heart. It\u2019s conditional, it\u2019s based upon your samskaras and the outside situation that\u2019s happening.<\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s how love at first sight happens. It\u2019s all of a sudden it just fits. \u201cIt fits every experience I had. He\u2019s in the Navy, and I love people in the Navy. My father was in the Navy.\u201d The next thing you know, boom, the heart opens up and all this energy comes out. But then they do something you don\u2019t like and bam, it closes, right or wrong.<\/span><\/p>\n

Everybody knows that the heart can open and close. The lower heart can, because it only opens when things are matching the samskaras properly, the patterns. And it closes when things are not. Fine. Is there a higher heart? Yes. When? When you get rid of the samskaras. The more you release those things and realize \u201cI don\u2019t want that running in my life; that\u2019s silly, that I interact with somebody after 30 years, the way I did when I was in high school,\u201d but you\u2019re going to, I\u2019m telling you. Even if you just hear their name 30 years later, it could change your feelings.<\/span><\/p>\n

What if you work with yourself the way we\u2019ve been discussing, and you keep releasing and relaxing and leaning back and giving it room. Samskaras need room to release. Give them room, get out of the way. If you do that, what will happen? You will feel it, you will know it, it\u2019s a very deep spiritual state you\u2019ll go through.<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s called piercing the heart chakra. The energy will come up but now it\u2019s not blocked when it comes up. It doesn\u2019t have to go out horizontally. It manages to come up further, and it\u2019s very powerful, and it\u2019s actually a white-hot experience. It burns through enough of your samskaras to where it pops up to a higher chamber within the heart. And you\u2019ll know when that happens. All of a sudden, there\u2019s this pure love. It\u2019s called spiritual love, divine love, call it whatever you want. It never goes away. If you\u2019re sincere, it stays there forever. You would never trade it off by taking on more samskaras, and that is the spiritual heart.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I\u2019m so glad you introduced this phrase \u201cpiercing the spiritual heart.\u201d This is a quote from <\/span>Living<\/span><\/i> Untethered<\/span><\/i>: \u201cThe roots of samskaras are stored in the heart. That\u2019s where the patterns you shoved out of your mind went. They didn\u2019t dissipate. They went down further into the source of your energy flow, which is the heart.\u201d<\/span> I don\u2019t think I knew that before reading <\/span>Living Untethered<\/span><\/i> that the roots of these patterns were stored in the heart. Can you tell me why you say that with such confidence?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MS: <\/b>Because you feel it, you feel it. Right now, what we tend to feel is the mind, so that when we have problems, it\u2019s a mental problem. They\u2019re complaining. Or you say, \u201cWell, I really like him. How do I get back in touch with him?\u201d The heart can feel something, but the mind, the root of the mind is in the heart. As the heart releases energy, it ends up in the mind and the mind starts thinking. Normally we don\u2019t go any further than that, we\u2019re caught in our minds. As you go deeper by letting go of those thoughts in your mind, you start to notice that it\u2019s all happening from your heart. That the root of the mind is in the heart, the root of the mind is in the heart. That\u2019s a true statement.<\/span><\/p>\n

As you bypass the mind and don\u2019t get distracted by the mind, you will start to feel your heart, the fullness of your heart. And you\u2019re going to see that, before the mind says something, the heart\u2019s releasing and the heart is trying to get rid of the samskaras, and they\u2019re ending up talking through the mind.<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s part of your meditation, it\u2019s part of your spiritual growth. It\u2019s part of being able to stand there when somebody\u2019s saying something you don\u2019t like and instead of defending yourself with your mind, you start feeling this pain in your heart. \u201cMy father talked to me like that.\u201d Whoa, that\u2019s not your father, that\u2019s a woman talking to you, but it doesn\u2019t matter, it feels like it.<\/span><\/p>\n

You start realizing where all this stuff is coming from; it\u2019s coming from your heart. As you release these samskaras, your heart opens more and then eventually you can pierce through that, the blockages, and come up to higher centers.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>We started, Michael, and I asked you this question, the question that you ask at the beginning of <\/span>Living Untethered<\/span><\/i>: \u201cAre you in there?\u201d We said, \u201cYeah, we\u2019re both in there and this is a deep idea, \u2018Are we in there?\u2019\u201d And here\u2019s my question to you: at what point does the \u201cme\u201d in here\u2014I\u2019m in here, you, you\u2019re in there\u2014when do we become one?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MS: <\/b>When you stop focusing on yourself, when the consciousness\u2014we talked about the consciousness, the awareness of being\u2014stops being addicted to your thoughts, your emotions, and what\u2019s coming through your senses. Little by little, you let go. Again, I have to say it because people tend to resist. You\u2019re not not interacting with the world. You\u2019re just doing it from a deeper place. \u201cI\u2019m aware. I\u2019m here.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

The more you can be there and somebody else is there, you\u2019re going to find out that the there is the same. There\u2019s only one consciousness. And that consciousness is focusing on your thoughts, on somebody else\u2019s thoughts, and that\u2019s what\u2019s going on. That\u2019s why when they say, \u201cMy father and I are one,\u201d is when you stop\u2014Christ said, \u201cYou must die to be reborn.\u201d I am a nice Jewish Yogi who loves the teachings of Christ. Why? Because they\u2019re the truth, all right? He says you must die to be reborn. What does that mean? That means you have to let go of who you think you are, what your mind is telling you, what you\u2019re staring at. If you do, your consciousness will float back and stop being focused on you. And that\u2019s what universal consciousness is, that\u2019s what expansion of consciousness is. If you do it and I do it, we\u2019re all merged. It\u2019s all one.<\/span><\/p>\n

Truth is it is all one. The sun is one, even though the rays are falling on different things, right? It comes all the way down, you\u2019re shining on this, shining on that, shining on that. There\u2019s one consciousness focusing on each of our thoughts and emotions and so on. But the question is, are you willing to die to be reborn? Are you willing to let go of yourself so that you can be who you really are?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I\u2019ve been speaking with Michael Singer. He\u2019s the author of a beautiful guidebook for the inner life: <\/span>Living Untethered: Beyond the Human Predicament<\/span><\/i>. I\u2019m so glad, Michael, that you took the time and energy and focus to write <\/span>Living Untethered<\/span><\/i>. It\u2019s so helpful, so practical, so clearly explained.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MS: <\/b>Thank you, Tami. It\u2019s a pleasure talking to you. I knew you\u2019d ask deep questions. Thank you.<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Thanks for listening to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>. You can read a full transcript of today\u2019s interview at resources2.soundstrue.com\/Podcast. That\u2019s resources2.soundstrue.com\/Podcast. If you\u2019re interested, hit the Subscribe button in your podcast app. If you feel inspired, head to iTunes and leave <\/span>Insights at the Edge <\/span><\/i>a review. I absolutely love getting your feedback and being connected. Sounds True: waking up the world.<\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"template":"","meta":{"_expiration-date-status":"","_expiration-date":0,"_expiration-date-type":"","_expiration-date-categories":[],"_expiration-date-options":[]},"class_list":["post-19614","transcript","type-transcript","status-publish","hentry"],"yoast_head":"\nLiving Untethered - Transcript | Sounds True<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Living Untethered. 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