{"id":19686,"date":"2022-07-08T15:34:40","date_gmt":"2022-07-08T21:34:40","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?post_type=transcript&p=19686"},"modified":"2022-07-08T15:34:40","modified_gmt":"2022-07-08T21:34:40","slug":"microdosing-bravery","status":"publish","type":"transcript","link":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/microdosing-bravery\/","title":{"rendered":"Microdosing Bravery"},"content":{"rendered":"
\"image_print\"Print Transcript<\/span><\/a><\/div>

Tami Simon:<\/b> Welcome to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>, produced by Sounds True. My name\u2019s Tami Simon, I\u2019m the founder of Sounds True, and I\u2019d love to take a moment to introduce you to the Sounds True Foundation. The goal of the Sounds True Foundation is to provide access and eliminate financial barriers to transformational education and resources, such as teachings and trainings on mindfulness, emotional awareness, and self-compassion. If you\u2019d like to learn more and join with us in our efforts, please visit SoundsTrueFoundation.org.<\/span><\/p>\n

In this episode of <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>, my guest is Dr. Kristen Lee. Kris, called Dr. Kris by her students, is an internationally recognized, award-winning behavioral science professor, clinician, researcher, author, activist, and comedian from Boston, Massachusetts. She operates a consulting practice devoted to preventing and treating burnout, and is the author of a new book with Sounds True. It\u2019s called <\/span>Worth the Risk: How to Microdose Bravery to Grow Resilience, Connect More, and Offer Yourself to the World<\/span><\/i>. Kris is an unusual person. She\u2019s highly accomplished, and yet she deeply questions our culture of overachievement. She\u2019s a psychotherapist who is also a stand-up comic working at the intersection of humor and mental health. She\u2019s an artist, someone who believes in making our lives a work of art. She inspires each of us to be one of a kind, as she is. Here\u2019s my conversation with Dr. Kristen Lee.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

To begin, Kris, tell me and tell our listeners a little bit about you and the winding path you\u2019ve been on that brought you to write <\/span>Worth the Risk<\/span><\/i>.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Kristen Lee:<\/b> It\u2019s certainly been a path, as a person with a lived experience of anxiety, to really think about risk-taking and what it means to show up in life and to overcome fear. And so that was always a phenomena in my life\u2014just that inner struggle. And it made me really curious as a person, people\u2019s stories of overcoming and of grappling. And as time would tell, as I was maneuvering through, I decided to become a therapist and, in that, learned so much from those who were bravely coming forward with their stories of both tremendous trauma and grappling with all kinds of chaos and difficulties, to really coming to a place of resilience and deeper acceptance. And so that really gave me a lot to work with and caused me to want to go deeper into research. I transitioned as psychotherapist to professor and really began this process of research around, what does it mean to be resilient in a world where fear is contagious, where anxiety is the new normal? They\u2019re calling it \u201cthe age of anxiety.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

I think I was seeing this duality\u2014people going through these things, but also overcoming\u2014and I was curious about their process. I knew my own process had a lot of bumps along the way, but was one that got me to a place of increased comfort, embracing my weirdness, if you will, being able to accept all those different parts of myself in a deeper way in my life. And so that was really part of what started it\u2014seeing those I served in therapy, in my classroom, in my research, embodying this sense of gumption and spirit. And sometimes when you see that, it feels a little romanticized. And as you dig in, you realize that it came through a lot of massive redoes, it came through strategic risk taking and that willingness to face the anxiety rather than lean into the primitive instinct to curl into fetal position.<\/span><\/p>\n

That really began this process of writing. And I think we all write about things that we struggle with. For me, the struggle to overcome anxiety, to take risks, to not feel afraid that I\u2019m going to hurt someone\u2019s feelings or I\u2019m going to let someone down or that someone\u2019s going to judge me\u2014those were things that I was grappling a lot with throughout my life, and I\u2019ve been working to overcome. Writing this was about helping us all see, that\u2019s not just an old-school mental health condition, but that\u2019s very much the human condition. We can\u2019t avoid risk, we can\u2019t skirt it, it\u2019s part of our everyday life, so the more we can get comfortable with the uncomfortable, the more we can find our way through it.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I want to start just by thanking you for beginning our conversation with sharing your own history and your own process with anxiety. I think a lot of people would feel like, no, I don\u2019t want the world to see that. How did you get comfortable with being able to say, yes, not only am I embracing my weirdness, which maybe wouldn\u2019t be such a big deal, but anxiety has a mental health stigma in some people\u2019s minds.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

KL: <\/b>Indeed. It was certainly through a very strategic microdose approach to coming out with this. And for me, philosophically, my training as a clinical social worker, and as I work in macro social work as well to overcome stigma and discrimination for anyone with lived experiences, that is just such a central part of my ethos, and also as a human resilience researcher and a person who\u2019s obsessed with brain science. I also knew that, again, many of us are likely vacillating and in and out of episodes across our lifespan. So, gone are the days of the 1950s hangover where we think that it\u2019s a moral failing on someone\u2019s part if they suffer or struggle, or that it\u2019s just a family issue or it\u2019s something to be hush about. Rather, I have ahold of a firm belief that we need to really bring mental health out of the shadows.<\/span><\/p>\n

And I was feeling a little bit, like, I was skirting around it a little bit. I was dropping hints in my writing and in my public work. And then I decided, of all places, to really come out with it in front of all my peers at work. So, I think we all know, peer presentation is always the most provocative and the most anxiety producing. And I went off script, I went off the PowerPoint and I just talked about what my brain does. In the book, I talk about the worst-case-scenario brain, and it\u2019s this idea that when you have anxiety, your brain super speeds to the worst possible outcome. So, you send me a text, I write back, I see those three dots, I think you\u2019re mad at me. Or the phone rings and I think someone died. It\u2019s that automated thinking. And I knew that I wanted to come out more deliberately and intentionally with this story not only of struggle but also of recovery.<\/span><\/p>\n

And Tami, when I first did this, I walked back to my office, my first thought was, is my boss going to start checking up on me? What are people going to think? Should I even go back to the office? And instead, I was greeted with, \u201cThank you for saying that, that\u2019s exactly how I feel, but I was afraid to say it.\u201d And from that moment on, it really invited a new level of comradery, community, and safety into my life, where I realized that I\u2019m just talking about what\u2019s happening in my brain. And these are, again, conditions of our modern world. Within the level of trauma that we\u2019re all marinating in, many of us are having these very proportionate reactions. And again, there\u2019s the biology, there\u2019s the social context behind it. And I realized that in coming out and telling my story, that was not only a process of liberation for myself, but anyone else that could hear that message and understand, or maybe experience a deeper level of safety for themselves.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>And one of the points you make in <\/span>Worth the Risk<\/span><\/i> that I thought was so point on and brilliant and helpful, is that when we do share our vulnerabilities with our coworkers, with people, instead of leading with our masks, we actually get to feel connected to people, which is what we all want. We get to feel connected. I think that\u2019s so important. OK.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Now, in the very beginning of the book, you tell a story about being at a comedy club. You had a breakthrough insight while you were sitting in the audience of the comedy club, about this microdosing of bravery, which is really the theme of <\/span>Worth the Risk<\/span><\/i>. Tell us that story.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

KL: <\/b>Yes. So, I was there with my good friend, J Smitty, who\u2019s also a comedian. I also perform as a comedian, and we were watching Ms. Pat. Ms. Pat is just an extraordinary, courageous woman who overcame significant trauma. And what was interesting\u2014it\u2019s a comedy show and she is dropping these trauma truth bombs one after another, and just the whole crowd is in stitches. And I\u2019m thinking, in my training and my career, I\u2019ve never seen anyone talk about their deepest, worst experiences in a way that would actually elicit laughter. It felt almost slightly irreverent. But as an artist, she just skillfully showed the ways in which we\u2019re wired to be resilient. And at the end of the show, what she did, after just having us in stitches, she turned to all of us, the room got very quiet, and she said, \u201cWe must be brave to tell our stories.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

And it just resonated, it made so much sense. And it caused me to realize, I went on to read her book and I binged everything that she has out there, and I realized that it wasn\u2019t like she just took to the mic and just dumped all her trauma in front of people in one fell swoop. First, it was someone giving her that feedback\u2014look, you have fantastic wit, you have a sense of humor, have you ever thought about stand up? And then she took to the stage slowly but surely and built up that courage, she nurtured her courage. And that was just a moment of insight as I was doing my academic research and just thinking about everything at hand in the world, the level of fear and the level of trepidation, and then social media, which causes us to curate ourselves and to show up in ways that aren\u2019t telling our true stories.<\/span><\/p>\n

So, her boldness just truly impacted me. And it caused me to realize, just as in my research and the work I do around behavior change, it has to happen in a very paced way. Because I think risk is pitched like you have to jump out of an airplane, or bet it all at the Bellagio, or maybe get on stage like Ms. Pat and reveal yourself, which many people are afraid to even do public speaking. And it\u2019s not any of those things. It\u2019s the small acts that we work towards that free ourselves of what society is yelling at us 24\/7 about who we\u2019re supposed to be and what we\u2019re supposed to do, and rather, taking that agency, that psychological agency, to move forward according to our values with strategic risk.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now, you mentioned you\u2019re an expert in resiliency. What\u2019s the relationship between microdosing bravery, taking these small acts, and then being able to be resilient when really difficult, big things happen?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

KL: <\/b>One of the things that I have loved to see transpire in the resilience research and in the conversation is that we no longer think of resilience as a trait, something that we\u2019re born with or we\u2019re not. And what we know is, resilience as a process. It\u2019s a process of positive adaptation during the face of adversity. And what we know is that risk can nurture resilience. So, in a similar fashion, risk is also a process that we grapple with, that we reckon with in order to really show up more fully in life. I think one of the key pieces that you see in this whole work is this idea that safe relationships matter.<\/span><\/p>\n

When we look at resilience research, among the most protective factors towards resilience are our relationships. If we\u2019re showing up phony, afraid to speak up in our relationships, afraid to be our true self, whether this is at work, at home, or anywhere in-between, that becomes a true barrier to honest and real connection. And we know loneliness is being called \u201cthe new smoking.\u201d As a health risk, we know that the pandemic has escalated that sense of disconnection, removing us from needed community that helps. And so, in my research, I\u2019m obsessed with this whole idea that it\u2019s not trait based, these are all processes that we can take on in order to stay and do well in today\u2019s context.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>It seems to me that there\u2019s this interesting \u201cboth\/and\u201d here, and I wonder how you see it, which is we need safety. As you mentioned, we need safety in our relationships, we need to feel safe in our bodies, we need to feel safe that we can express ourselves, but we also have to go to that edge where we don\u2019t quite feel safe, where we\u2019re taking a risk, where it feels dangerous. So, how do we find that right balance between being on the edge and being safe too? I want both.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

KL: <\/b>Yes. I agree, we can do both all at once. And the key thing is realizing, what do I stand for? What matters to me? What do I care about the most? What are my values? Then how does that guide my decisions over which risks to even choose and which to endeavor? Whenever we give in to that feeling of retreat or that feeling of crawling into fetal position and hiding out because we just can\u2019t face what\u2019s coming around the corner at warp speed, we have to recognize that when we really become more comfortable with the uncomfortable, we can grow. The beauty of growth is that it\u2019s not just for the sake of personal gain or upward mobility, but it\u2019s really for the sake of society. So, the more any of us, again, endeavor risk and look to become more uncomfortable and put ourselves out there, the more equipped we become to influence and lead others in that same way, to liberate, as I talk about it.<\/span><\/p>\n

I think that sense of safety is an illusion. That\u2019s another big piece here, is that we can think, OK, I\u2019m afraid I\u2019m going to go on the treadmill and fall down, so I\u2019m not going to go on the treadmill. And then there\u2019s a trade-off. With every risk, there\u2019s a trade-off. The trade-off is you won\u2019t be as fit if you don\u2019t get on that treadmill. Or you could think, I\u2019ve been burnt in my relationships, and so therefore I\u2019m not going back on the dating apps, I\u2019m not going to put myself out there. And maybe you\u2019re not risking that turmoil again or that heartbreak, but on the other hand, you\u2019re risking adventure or just meeting people and learning more about yourself and about life and creating moments of joy. There\u2019s so many ways in which we can recognize the trade-offs. By not doing risk, we\u2019re not necessarily causing ourselves to be safer and, in fact, we could really be disrupting adventure, growth, relationships, community, just things that maybe our wildest imaginations couldn\u2019t even conceive of.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now Kris, you used this phrase, \u201clearning to be comfortable with being uncomfortable.\u201d And I think this is something that now, it\u2019s part of the zeitgeist. I hear it a lot in terms of, in a good way. I think it\u2019s wonderful that we\u2019re starting to say, oh, it\u2019s OK. I can be OK with how uncomfortable I feel right now, because I\u2019m in a growth process, something\u2019s changing. And I want to talk about this specifically in terms of anxiety. And what have you learned in your own experience? How are you with yourself when you feel anxious in a way that you can withstand the feelings that come with anxiety?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

KL: <\/b>A lot of it is working on self-acceptance. That\u2019s been a process for me because I tend to have the perfectionistic tendencies or be that overthinker or unhealthy overachiever. In my mind\u2019s eye, it\u2019s never enough, I should be doing more. And so, a lot of it is changing those mindsets and behaviors that perpetuate those ways of being that have led me to moments of high angst and burnout. I think it\u2019s also all the advantage of my clinical training and the work that I do, is to learn about anxiety and to recognize that there is an element of it, I always call it the frenemy, anxiety is the frenemy, so there\u2019s an element of it that really reveals a level of conscientiousness, what we care about. If we had no anxiety, we would just be indifferent or apathetic. I think just that learning around what it is that I can do in my practices to, again, be more self-compassionate and to stay anchored.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so, a couple of things, Tami. One is, I really am very protective, and I\u2019m not religious at all, but I\u2019m religious about my sleep and my lifestyle medicine. So, making sure that I sleep, that I nourish properly with proper food, nutrition, I\u2019m a neurotic walker. And then my creative life\u2014so my writing, my performing, all of those things, a sense of humor especially has been very protective. I think a lot of us, through the pandemic, had our typical practices and then we had to bring it to a whole nother level of practice. And so, all of those things are things that I do on the daily, that I\u2019ve trained myself. And when we think about brain plasticity and our incredible wiring to keep adapting and growing and stopping these automated tendencies towards anxiety, that is a real catalyst for healing and change.<\/span><\/p>\n

So, as you said, it\u2019s fantastic to see people talking about discomfort, about radical acceptance, about it\u2019s OK not to be OK. But a message here is, we also don\u2019t have to stay stuck in that place. Like, OK, I\u2019m just a person with anxiety and yes, it waxes and wanes. But I also have been able to overcome many of those visceral\u2014like the panic attacks. I\u2019m much less apt now to have panic attacks than I would\u2019ve been before I really started to practice these things more intentionally. And the key for anyone listening in our community here is to remember that this isn\u2019t flip of switch, it\u2019s not overnight. Behavior change happens in microdoses, small, strategically, and that\u2019s what gives us that momentum to continue the efforts that are important for our resilience.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now, I want to talk about some of these microdoses in our lives and make it super real and grounded for people, and I was thinking of some examples of where microdosing bravery could really help. And we\u2019ll just explore a few of them together, if that\u2019s OK.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

KL: <\/b>Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>So, in our relationships and the whole notion that we could speak up about something instead of keeping it buried\u2014and then I was asking myself, why? Why do I not speak up in this relationship or that relationship? It could be at work, it could be with my partner, it could be with a friend, and it\u2019s like, well, God, I don\u2019t want to get into it, conflict averse. And then there\u2019s going to be all the discussion that\u2019s going to take forever. So, what\u2019s your suggestion when someone knows, I have something to say here, I know I have something to say. In fact, I\u2019ve had something to say for years and I just keep burying it.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

KL: <\/b>I think that\u2019s a very honest human reaction that many of us can relate to. And again, when we think about microdosing, think of it as a chip-away approach, we chip away. We test the waters. You could also maybe call it the hint-dropping method. But to your point, I think we stay averse because we don\u2019t want to enter that tunnel of chaos with someone, or we don\u2019t want World War III to break out in our relationships. But I think the thing that I\u2019ve seen in my clinical work, and by the way in my own life, to be candid, I have all these communication skills and training and sometimes I\u2019m a chicken. Sometimes I\u2019m a total chicken and I\u2019m afraid to bring things up. I don\u2019t want to hurt someone\u2019s feelings or, to your point, you just don\u2019t want to go there.<\/span><\/p>\n

But ultimately, what happens is this creates what we might think of as a cumulative effect, a negative effect in our relationships. If we just go along to get along and we smile or we avoid, it\u2019s going to catch up with us, and that\u2019s that whole reminder that risks can\u2019t be skirted or avoided. And again, it\u2019s not about sitting down and having this massive, deep conversation, but it could be something as simple as saying, Tami, it would mean a lot to me if you knew this about me. And it\u2019s really self-advocacy. It\u2019s a form of self-advocacy to just speak up. And I think ultimately, for any of our relationships, whether in professional arenas or in our personal lives, ultimately, if we want to really enjoy a deeper presence with one another, just a beautiful connection with each other, that honesty and that ability even to maneuver through that can really be very healing and very pivotal in our relationships. So, it\u2019s a way of engaging in life that is a bit scary, but worth doing<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Wonderful response. Now, another arena where I think many of us could use some microdosing of bravery has to do with our creative life\u2014being as expressive, being as artistic as we actually feel inside. And once again, I think there\u2019s all kinds of things that go on, whether it\u2019s that ship sailed, you brought up perfectionism. So, talk some about microdosing bravery in terms of our creative expression.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

KL: <\/b>I think it\u2019s important for us all to look at our context as we evaluate this. In my rating, I talk about the commodity complex of today, so this is the idea that success is measured very narrowly and it\u2019s very linear. So, by the age of five, before someone\u2019s lost their first tooth, the kid already has to be know where their top tier college is, or by the time they\u2019re in third grade, they should be reading at three grade levels ahead, or by the time they\u2019re in high school, they should be taking 20 AP classes and cocurriculars. I\u2019m outlining this because it starts early on, around what\u2019s socially acceptable, what\u2019s desired, and what success looks like. And creativity gets squashed, it gets totally squashed. Conformity is certainly just pressured onto us.<\/span><\/p>\n

And I think, especially as we maneuver into adult life, and if we\u2019re in a professional environment, we can feel like we have to be very bound up, or it just can feel like creativity gets stifled. I think for all of us, it starts with recognizing those social forces and that social context. And ironically, what\u2019s also ironic, is that data shows that creativity is one of the most sought-after job skills of today. We obviously need to be creative and agile thinkers, and yet still there\u2019s this strange dichotomy there, or paradox, around how creative should we be. What I will say is that creative way of living our lives, however that might be, it might be by wearing colorful outfit and living our life as art. It could be the way you put seasoning on your food, it could be the way you use language, it could be the way you sing a song or you paint or you create something with your hands.<\/span><\/p>\n

Creativity is something that we know nourishes the brain, and yet in our modern life, it\u2019s squashed, whether, again, because of these perils of erroneous definitions of success or just lack of time. And then we feel like, oh, I\u2019m not being productive to be creative. But actually, creativity and creative endeavors prime our brain to really be able to be analytical, stay on task, and it helps us in many other areas of our lives. So, I think creativity, it\u2019s a value I will tell you that I hold very sacred and dear, and one that I think I could give other examples if you want, just things that have helped me break through my own anxiety and fear in a very strategic way.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Yes. Well, I\u2019m curious, because here you are, you\u2019re doing stand-up comedy, and you also mentioned, though, that you have at least had a history of perfectionism. And I thought to myself, God, Kris, I\u2019m sure she\u2019s gotten up on stage, told a series of jokes that the room was silent.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

KL: <\/b>Crickets.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>How does she deal with that?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

KL: <\/b>I think that\u2019s the joy of humor. I feel like I use humor as a practice on and off stage. And you realize everything is a skit in life, or everything\u2019s a <\/span>Curb Your Enthusiasm<\/span><\/i> or <\/span>Seinfeld<\/span><\/i> moment if you let it be. That\u2019s the creativity in the mind\u2019s eye, is just to realize, oh, of course that went wrong or of course I blew that line. And the humor has been one of the greatest pathways to dismantle perfectionism. But I think another reason I\u2019m obsessed with it is, I think that, obviously, laughter is the best medicine, it\u2019s so therapeutic, but it can call important issues into view for all of us. And that\u2019s another big theme in <\/span>Worth the Risk<\/span><\/i>, is community solidarity and moving to a better place with all our social ills and issues. For me, it\u2019s worth the risk of comedy. I think the biggest fear I had wasn\u2019t bombing in a club or something like that, I thought that it might diminish my credibility professionally.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Sure.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

KL: <\/b>So I thought, here I am, an academic. I\u2019ve worked my whole life. I was the first in my family to go to college. I worked four jobs in my undergrad years\u2014state school\u2014all that work to get people to take me seriously and overcome my imposter syndrome. And then I\u2019m like, what am I doing? Am I going to undo it? In the pandemic, one of my absurd moments was to start a comedy mental health show, and this was to raise funds for mental health access and awareness. And I started this whole thing and I thought, oh no, are people at work going to think I\u2019m totally weird? Again, that whole thing I first felt when I came out with my mental health story. And I thought, is this going to diminish my serious work?<\/span><\/p>\n

And sure, there might be people out there who think it\u2019s a little bit questionable, but I see it as a catalyst for teaching. And more important, I see it as a catalyst for access. Because so many people can\u2019t afford higher education, they might not even be able to afford a book or just be in that position. And I\u2019m very against pretentiousness or esoteric stuff, which that word always cracks me up because it\u2019s like, what does that mean? But I\u2019m very against those barriers that are created in society. So, I think for me, it\u2019s worth taking the risk of people maybe having perspectives about that zany side of me or that creative life I live. It\u2019s worth it if I\u2019m creating a conversation, if I\u2019m creating access, if I\u2019m offering information in a way that people might not expect to get at a comedy show. I\u2019m dropping in these other really important points that are important for me to share in the world.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>One of the insights I had reading <\/span>Worth the Risk<\/span><\/i> is that when we do put ourselves out there and risk being criticized\u2014which your story illustrates exactly, and I\u2019ve seen this in my own life when I\u2019ve put myself out there. And believe me, I was like, God, I loved working at Sounds True in the early years when I wasn\u2019t in front of the camera, in front of the microphone. I was behind the scenes editing other people\u2019s work. Let them take the arrows, I\u2019m not going to. But when you risk criticism, it happens, you get criticized, but you also get community.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

KL: <\/b>Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>The people who resonate are drawn towards you. It\u2019s worth the risk.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

KL: <\/b>Indeed. And I think that\u2019s the message, it\u2019s that ultimately there\u2019s that trade off, that initial, oh, that moment of, what did I just do? Or that moment of sheer vulnerability. It\u2019s so nail-biting and provocative, but then you see what comes around. And I think it\u2019s not only that we\u2019re developing those relationships in community, but if anyone relates to being a perfectionist or hard on themselves, if you can also move the needle in terms of self-acceptance and deeper joy and presence with yourself, then that\u2019s also a form of liberation. And I think we\u2019re always going to get criticized in this world. I think at the end of the day, we have to unhook from caring about that external validation or comparing ourselves to each other. But knowing, as long as we are moving along in our values through this strategic process of risk, then we will be nourished and we will be protected, and we will find our fellow travelers along the way.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now, a couple times you\u2019ve used this phrase, \u201cstrategic risk taking,\u201d the strategic process\u2014<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

KL: <\/b>Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>\u2014of risk. Help me understand the strategy part.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

KL: <\/b>Well, I think people, again, when they hear risk, it\u2019s a little bit unsure. What do you mean by that? And there\u2019s a lot of old adages about risk, what is it, two in the hand? What\u2019s the one about the bushel? Two in the hand\u2014<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Definitely keep the\u2014<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

KL: <\/b>One in the hand\u2014<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Keep the one bird that you\u2019re going to kill in your hand.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

KL: <\/b>Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>You\u2019re going to kill it because you\u2019ve got it. Anyway, but I think that\u2019s the gist of it, versus trying to get two. Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

KL: <\/b>So, I think when we think about risk, again, there\u2019s a lot of these Avenger-like versions of it. We think we have to just be so ultimately brave. But strategic risk, again, is about taking it slow and steady, making it a practice and, as I\u2019ve said, connecting the dots with our values to our actions. This is a big piece of the work that I do, is spurring on behavior change, sustainable behavior change. So, the idea with this here, with risks that are strategic, it\u2019s not random. Because I think the way I talk about it is, don\u2019t keg-stand risk. And what I mean by that is, we think it\u2019s these grand jaw-dropping gestures of risk that we need to assert.<\/span><\/p>\n

Strategic risk is\u2014and I think this is good for anyone that identifies as an introvert or ambivert, or someone that maybe feels very risk averse or they don\u2019t feel like they\u2019re this big, bold person, this big Mufasa, they feel more like a cowardly lion. The strategic part is just realizing, it\u2019s the tiny things that you do step-by-step that embolden you, that give you that momentum to feel ready for that next step. So, recognizing it very much as a process, but not random. Not, OK, well then I\u2019m going to just put all my savings into Bitcoin. Or I\u2019m just going to really tell my boss what I think. It\u2019s more in a measured way, so that you can then integrate what you\u2019ve done. So, think of microdosing and digestion, it\u2019s little doses a little bit at a time that, again, edify and nourish and build that added momentum of courage. And so, that\u2019s the strategic part, rather than fighting it all up at once and just facing the consequences of that.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>In the chapter where you talked about, \u201cdon\u2019t keg-stand risk,\u201d I had to look that up. I was like, what is a keg-stand? And I thought, oh my God, you\u2019re dating yourself, and I am. Never done that. There you go. OK. To me, one, I want to share one of the most inspiring parts of the book and one of the parts that I found the most challenging. So, one of the parts that I found the most inspiring had to do with how, in your view, in this time that we\u2019re in right now, we have to search out what our values are and decide what risks we\u2019re willing to take to speak out for social justice\u2014<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

KL: <\/b>Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>\u2014and to speak out for people who don\u2019t have the same amount of privilege that we have in the culture. And I wonder if you can talk more about that, and specifically, also, you share the science around being a passive bystander\u2014<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

KL: <\/b>Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>\u2014being in the spectator role instead of being an active changemaker in the world. So, if you can talk some about that.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

KL: <\/b>Indeed. This is one of the most important pieces. This isn\u2019t just a book about personal gain or growth, it\u2019s about social change. And when we look at our context at hand and all the systemic -isms and injustices, I think many of us are left in a place where we want to help. We want to speak out, we want to hold ourselves to a high level of accountability. And it can often be difficult to know what to do, what will bring that impact in the world to really bring about the changes that are sorely needed. When we think about being an active contributor versus a passive bystander, that\u2019s about, again, looking at our own biases. That\u2019s a risk that, many of us, it\u2019s a very difficult one, to confront our own biases and prejudices. It\u2019s being willing to confront this really, really fraught condition that we\u2019ve all inherited in society, these terrible injustices against BIPOC individuals and communities and LGBTQIA communities, and to look at how the dominant group has just had its way.<\/span><\/p>\n

And these things can really\u2014obviously there\u2019s a real lack of helpful dialogue happening very often in the polarized sociopolitical climate, but one thing I really want to encourage is looking for ways we can begin our process of active contribution. And as you know, one of the ways I think about it is in the diversity and inclusion conversation, people years ago would talk a lot about tolerance, oh, let\u2019s tolerate each other. And I\u2019m thinking, OK, we can tolerate apps that shut down on us too quickly or long lines or that coworker that always has a million questions. We can tolerate those things. But I think we can do better when it comes to seeing and loving and being accountable for one another. I also have a lot of issue. I take issue with the framing around when people say, well, I accept you, so let\u2019s promote acceptance.<\/span><\/p>\n

And to me, that also is problematic, because that holds, again, that dominant group perspective. OK, I\u2019m right, but I still accept you. I still unconditionally love you, and I accept you. It still holds that dominant position. So, what I advocate for is human reverence, the idea that we see each other in full splendor with awe and gratitude and admiration. And especially for anyone who\u2019s been underserved, marginalized, underrepresented, we should look at their lived experiences and their stories and be awestruck. And unfortunately in societies, those are the very opposite of what happens. There\u2019s so much judgment and blame and shame and disparaging ways. For any of us, as we want to endeavor social change, it begins with confronting and unlearning those biases, looking at how any potential positions of privilege we have can be used for the greater good and to not be passive bystanders. It\u2019s an easy one. Not really easy, but when we see things, speak up and ask questions. Why did you say that about this person or this group?<\/span><\/p>\n

And I think as we all have that collective courage, we can call things into question in a way that\u2019s effective. What we\u2019re looking at now with cancel culture, for example, is a lot of rubbing of noses in messes and a lot of shame and fighting and finger pointing. From a behavior change standpoint, that is not what helps us move to a place of solidarity and community and equity. That\u2019s something that is an essential message as well, that\u2019s so important, is that we take those risks of not being passive. And again, the science shows that it\u2019s a mixed bag. On one hand, there\u2019s all those studies that came out about passive bystandership. Some of them have been overturned and, ultimately, so much of the new science is revealing our desire to connect, our desire to look out for each other, and the kindness that we have as human beings, as a species. We\u2019re this paradox, but there\u2019s a lot we can leverage as we build these ways of interacting and engaging and having reverence that can build collective momentum.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>In terms of having reverence, even just connecting with each person\u2014great gift to great gift is something you point out\u2014is worth the risk. Can you talk about that?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

KL: <\/b>I think that the greatest gift that we can give each other, Tami, is our ability to see ourselves in one another, to see our strengths, our inherent beauty, our worth, our dignity, our capacity to microdose risk and be nourished, and to be bold and brave and courageous. We see that everywhere we turn. And I think the gift is being able to reflect that to each other and to encourage each other in that. We need that. There\u2019s fear, hate, those are all very contagious. So are these ways of risk-taking that help us to bestow that gift upon one another, that gift of reverence and awe, and really that we\u2019re not alone and that we\u2019re all deeply connected.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now, I am going to share the part of the book that I found the most challenging. We\u2019re going to get there in a moment. But I realize there\u2019s one thing that hasn\u2019t been fully clear to me, which is, I asked you about your perfectionism and you said, well, in doing the comedy, humor really helped me. And I thought, huh, because I think that\u2019s a streak many of us have. We want to speak up or we want to try this new thing, but we don\u2019t want it to not go well, so we hold back because we want to do it right. How have you gotten over that?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

KL: <\/b>I think that we have to call out the notion of perfectionism as an illusion. There\u2019s no such thing as perfect, and society is trying to bait us into these ideals of what makes us worthy. So I think it\u2019s first calling that out. And then I think my behavior science lens also helps me to realize just how foolish this is, how it\u2019s a futile effort to strive for this unhealthy overachievement, and ultimately that really diminishes the quality of life. And it actually disrupts our ability to contribute more wholly and positively. And an area of my work is around avoiding burnout, so if we think we\u2019re going to just keep hustling and overriding our bodily systems and not investing in what nourishes us and our own creative lives, then I think we can see ourself ill-positioned. And we see so many people falling into traps of social comparison.<\/span><\/p>\n

I think my work has revealed to me that we all have this tendency to pretend we\u2019re fine, but behind the scenes, on one hand, we can be very accomplished and have it together, and on the other hand, all at the same time, we could feel like we\u2019re a hot mess and we\u2019re going to lose it. And all those things are true, both at the same time, and that\u2019s OK. So, I think just using that critical thinking lens, what is this whole thing about perfectionism? Is it a thing? And then, how do we talk back to it thoughtfully? And in a way that helps us unhook from those unhealthy myths and ideals.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>One of the lines I loved in the book, you just talked about, pretending we\u2019re fine. You write, \u201cPretending we are fine is not an act of courage.\u201d I thought that\u2019s great. We\u2019re talking about microdosing bravery, and pretending we\u2019re fine isn\u2019t necessarily a courageous act. I wanted to underscore that. OK.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Here\u2019s the part I found challenging, \u201cthe cult of overachievement.\u201d The cult of overachievement. And as I was reading it, I thought, I don\u2019t know, have I bought into this overachievement thing? And how then, if we are committed and if we put too much of our energy into our culture\u2019s standards and the sense of all the goodies that come with overachieving, how that impacts our ability to take the risks we actually really need to take in our life. So, I wonder if you can speak to that.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

KL: <\/b>Indeed. The cult of overachievement is alive and well. I see this in my work with students, very high-performing students. I see this at work with the companies that I work with around the world that ask themselves the question, how do we strive for rigor and excellence without compromising our well-being? And I think this is a question of our times, but it\u2019s been a question we\u2019ve needed to ask for a long time: is success the definitions that we\u2019ve been handed or is it something different? I know so many people who have achieved pinnacles of so-called success and they\u2019re not even well enough to enjoy it. And so it\u2019s challenging some of those ideals that are presented. And we see this a lot in schools and parenting in this hypercompetitive global market, everyone is striving to get into the right school and to have the right job and the letters after their name and the Tesla and the red bottom.<\/span><\/p>\n

There\u2019s a lot in terms of materialism or just thinking we\u2019re commodities in life, and ultimately it\u2019s not worth sacrificing ourselves to a point of becoming ill or very dissatisfied with our lives. It\u2019s a hard one because I think we can still be contributing with full fervor in life, but without eroding ourselves to that point of being burnt out. I think that we all have to ask ourselves a lot of questions in terms of, again, what are our values? What do we care about? How do we want to feel? How do we want to experience life? How do we want to contribute positively in the world? And I think those can be guiding questions, rather than, what will people think about me? Or am I doing it right?<\/span><\/p>\n

I mean, that\u2019s the pressure, to be right. And I think as a scientist, for me, one of the guiding things is curiosity, and any good inquiry will lead to more questions than answers. But in society, there\u2019s a lot of pressure to have that right answer and think we know everything and to be mistake averse. We\u2019re afraid even if we get a B. Say we take a risk and we write a paper, we get a B. Everybody gets so caught up on metrics rather than our growth and our potential to grow and give more as a result of that deep growth.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now, you\u2019ve obviously are accomplishing a lot in your life: professor, writer, researcher, comedian, artist, freak-at-large a lot, all at the same time. How do you know when you\u2019re in the cult of overachievement versus just being a turned on high achiever? How do you know the difference?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

KL: <\/b>I think the difference is making sure that the values are leading my behavior. And I think for any of us that suffer in this way and that relapse and try to make it a daily practice to overcome these things, we know it\u2019s not a flip of a switch or something that isn\u2019t a constant effort to maneuver through. I think for myself, I have really integrated a lot of rest time, a lot of reprieve, in order for me to stay and do well. And I think that it\u2019s a burning question. I think the other thing, Tami, I\u2019ll say is for anybody that sees themselves maybe as an identity\u2014as a healer, a leader, an influencer, a caregiver, someone in human work, someone who cares about the human condition\u2014I believe the burning question is, it going to be enough? Is what I do going to be enough? Because we see the trauma at hand, we see the magnitude, the enormity of suffering.<\/span><\/p>\n

And I think for any of us who are driven towards social change work, elevating the human condition, that\u2019s the hardest piece for me, is knowing when I need to also plug myself back in and when I need to step back. And I think learning to set those boundaries, that\u2019s a process, because I think many of us in that category, we struggle to know when it\u2019s enough. I think it\u2019s the predominant question of our times, given the enormity of our times. But I think ultimately, we have to recognize that we\u2019re human beings, not human doings. We\u2019re not robots, we\u2019re not machines. And our legacy can be so much more when we take that time to restore ourselves and replenish rather than just living on the fringe of well-being all the time and chasing our tails. And I know this is hard in our modern world, there\u2019s a lot of disruptors to well-being, but I think when we set those boundaries and we set those intentions and we match those intentions with our actions and behaviors, we can get traction and momentum that helps us.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now, Kris, I want to make sure that the listeners who are joining us are leaving this conversation with a microdosing bravery plan of some kind in their life, something that they\u2019re actually going to take action on. Can you help them with that? How do they figure out, OK, it\u2019s a small act, this is the part of my life that\u2019s calling me, these are my values, I\u2019m going to actually do this small thing.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

KL: <\/b>Yes. I would suggest, assess your relationship to risk. Ask yourself, how willing am I to try new things? How willing am I to speak up or live out my values? So, first start with that, and then think about an area, let\u2019s start with a relationship, where you want it to be more connective. And maybe you drop that hint, you start with just a piece of self-advocacy within that relationship\u2014it would mean a lot to me if\u2014that\u2019s a great first step and then see how that goes. Or if you\u2019re a creative person and you\u2019ve always wanted to write or perform, maybe just start by sharing it one-to-one with someone that you feel safe with, and then you can extend from there, what feels comfortable in due time.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>All right. Now, towards the end of <\/span>Worth the Risk<\/span><\/i>, here\u2019s a few sentences that I circled that I thought were really right to the point, \u201cAnswering the call to truth is not without consequence.\u201d \u201cExposure and expulsion are amongst the most frightening propositions we face as a sapient and sentient species.\u201d \u201cLiberation does not come about without a knotted stomach, dramatic sacrifice, and intense peril\u201d \u2014Kris, this is intense writing here. OK\u2014\u201cdramatic sacrifice and intense peril, thus there is a new call to redefine psychological safety.\u201d And I thought, OK, how does Kris suggest we redefine psychological safety in our time, because we have to answer the call to truth, and that means we\u2019re risking exposure and expulsion.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

KL: <\/b>Yes. And not to be taken lightly, for sure. I think the key piece is that our primitive instincts and our social conditioning cause us to think that safety comes from hiding or pretending or presenting our curated versions of ourselves. The new psychological safety at hand in this new world is one in which we can be more free, more liberated to be ourselves, and creating that sense of safety in our environments, in our relationships. So, psychological safety is not brought about through this pretending process, it\u2019s when we\u2019re actually our true selves and we\u2019re seen and we\u2019re revered. That\u2019s when the healing can begin. So, psychological safety is not, again, something that\u2019s just always in reach in a very easy way. But what I want to encourage everyone to think about is, how do you work to build this culture of psychological safety in your organization, your company, in your family, your home and your relationships, your most intimate to your acquaintances, your colleagues, how do you build that?<\/span><\/p>\n

And it\u2019s not by being fake\u2014fake it until you make it or pretending everything\u2019s OK. It\u2019s through honest ways of being in conversation. I think so many companies right now that I speak with\u2014it\u2019s just so awkward right now. It\u2019s like, how do we attend to the mental health crisis at hand? How do we have honest conversation? How do we be responsive to the actual human needs right now and create that sense of psychological safety and trust? So many companies are asking that. And individuals, how do we build that when everything in the world feels so overwhelming?<\/span><\/p>\n

I think it begins by the honest truth that we\u2019re telling\u2014that this is scary, it\u2019s hard. And yet, we\u2019re not our trauma, we\u2019re not our automated emotions, we\u2019re not our labels, we\u2019re not what other people are projecting onto us, we\u2019re not our fears. We\u2019re so much more as a species. We\u2019re wired for this resilience and this ability to connect and come out of hiding. And it\u2019s a process. Again, there\u2019s no one-, two-, three-step formula for anyone, but I think this is the process of liberation that we can endeavor in order to create that sense of safety. And if we go about life unsafe, that\u2019s not worth it. It\u2019s not worth risking feeling unsafe to look good. So, it\u2019s a call to action.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>You end the book on this notion of people becoming liberators, and I wonder, when you think about that, maybe a mythic human you know and you think, that person, they\u2019re really embodying what it means to be a liberator. What comes up for you?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

KL: <\/b>Georgia O\u2019Keeffe. I start the book with her quote. I have it right here actually. And she says something about, \u201cI\u2019ve been terrified every day of my life, but it\u2019s never stopped me from doing anything I\u2019ve wanted to do.\u201d And just as an artist, she… And I\u2019m obsessed with Georgia O\u2019Keeffe\u2019s work and her story, but there\u2019s a lot of discussion about how her sense of humor emboldened her to take greater creative risks and life risks, whether coming out or her moving, just all the risks she took as a person, as an artist. That\u2019s something that inspires me, that amazing ability to be an artist and live life as an artist in every regard, not just by what she painted, but how she lived her life.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I\u2019ve been talking with Kristen Lee, she\u2019s the author of the beautiful new book, <\/span>Worth the Risk: How to Microdose Bravery to Grow Resilience, Connect More, and Offer Yourself to the World<\/span><\/i>. Kris, thank you for offering yourself so fully, pouring yourself out. I see it. And you bring up a feeling of reverence in me for the deep work that you\u2019re doing, so thank you so much.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

KL: <\/b>My pleasure. Thank you, Tami.<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Thanks for listening to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>. You can read a full transcript of today\u2019s interview at resources2.soundstrue.com\/podcast. That\u2019s resources2.soundstrue.com\/podcast. If you\u2019re interested, hit the subscribe button in your podcast app, and if you feel inspired, head to iTunes and leave <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i> a review. I absolutely love getting your feedback and being connected. Sounds True: waking up the world.<\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"template":"","meta":{"_expiration-date-status":"","_expiration-date":0,"_expiration-date-type":"","_expiration-date-categories":[],"_expiration-date-options":[]},"class_list":["post-19686","transcript","type-transcript","status-publish","hentry"],"yoast_head":"\nMicrodosing Bravery - Transcript | Sounds True<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Microdosing Bravery. 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