{"id":19751,"date":"2022-09-30T12:02:01","date_gmt":"2022-09-30T18:02:01","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?post_type=transcript&p=19751"},"modified":"2022-09-30T12:02:01","modified_gmt":"2022-09-30T18:02:01","slug":"trusting-the-dawn-choosing-freedom-and-joy-after-trauma","status":"publish","type":"transcript","link":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/trusting-the-dawn-choosing-freedom-and-joy-after-trauma\/","title":{"rendered":"Trusting the Dawn: Choosing Freedom and Joy After Trauma"},"content":{"rendered":"
\"image_print\"Print Transcript<\/span><\/a><\/div>

Tami Simon:<\/b> Welcome to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>, produced by Sounds True. My name\u2019s Tami Simon. I\u2019m the founder of Sounds True, and I\u2019d love to take a moment to introduce you to the Sounds True Foundation. The goal of the Sounds True Foundation is to provide access and eliminate financial barriers to transformational education and resources, such as teachings and trainings on mindfulness, emotional awareness, and self-compassion. If you\u2019d like to learn more and join with us in our efforts, please visit SoundsTrueFoundation.org.<\/span><\/p>\n

In this episode of <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>, my guest is Mary Firestone. Mary is a graduate of Princeton University, and she has a master\u2019s degree in clinical psychology from Pepperdine University. Her own transformative epiphanies led her, along with her sister, Lucy, to found their company, Firestone Sisters, in 2012, with the aim of providing for people healing and growth opportunities. With Sounds True, Mary Firestone has written a new book. It\u2019s called <\/span>Trusting the Dawn: How to Choose Freedom and Joy After Trauma<\/span><\/i>.<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s a very personal book where Mary shares her own healing journey through trauma. She also interviews people\u2014experts, researchers, and people who themselves have gone through transformational journeys healing trauma. And in it, she then extends a hand to us wherever we are, with a whole set of tools that we can use, in her words, to \u201ctrust the dawn.\u201d Here\u2019s my conversation with Mary Firestone.<\/span><\/p>\n

Mary, as a way to introduce yourself better and to give people a context, really, for <\/span>Trusting the Dawn<\/span><\/i>, your new book, what was happening in your life that led up to the inspiration for you to write <\/span>Trusting the Dawn<\/span><\/i>?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Mary Firestone:<\/b> Well, I had just recently moved to Montecito, which is right by Santa Barbara, California. And we bought this beautiful farmhouse from 1890. We spent maybe four nights in the house between renovations, and then the Thomas Fire had ravaged all of Southern California, and we\u2019d been evacuated. So in early January, we returned back, and the fourth night sleeping in this house, there\u2019s a call for there\u2019s going to be a potential debris flow. We were not in the evacuation zone, so for reasons I\u2019m not sure of, I woke up at 4:00 in the morning. There had been a huge gas explosion, so the sky was this eerily beautiful orange, and we hadn\u2019t put in curtains yet, so I could see this tidal wave of mud careening towards our house at a record speed.<\/span><\/p>\n

That led to I\u2019m separated from my husband and child and trapped by myself, pregnant, for five hours in the dark, surrounded by toxic mud, sewage, debris, thinking that my life\u2014well, thinking that this was it, basically.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Whoa. And then from that experience and the healing process that you\u2019ve been through, share a little bit about that leading up to the writing of <\/span>Trusting the Dawn<\/span><\/i>.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MF:<\/b> Well, I have my background in psychology. I have my degree and my master\u2019s in clinical psych. And I knew that I was experiencing symptoms of PTSD. I had nightmares. I had anxiety. I had panic attacks. And at the same time, I was experiencing this whole new level of connection with something bigger than myself, with other people, with life and love and how I wanted to be here and live it. And so I felt that the seed of this book was really that, was wanting to share with others that just because you\u2019ve gone through a trauma does not mean you need to be perpetually labeled. You\u2019re not cursed by PTSD. Through healing, there can be this even greater experience of life and love. I wanted to write this book as an offering to other survivors.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> [Yes.] This new level of connection with all of life, how did that emerge after this traumatic mudslide experience?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MF:<\/b> Well, when I was trapped those five hours, much of it in the dark\u2014after the light from the gas explosion went out, it was dark and I was in the dark for a long time\u2014and I felt that there was another presence with me, a loving, some kind of protective, divine, beautiful, otherworldly than this world, the 3D reality. There was something else going on. It was almost like in the dark that night, I had some kind of window to something greater than myself. And when I look back on it and thinking how many things had to line up perfectly so that my family and I survived and so many of our neighbors perished that night. So I felt very connected to something bigger than me because of that experience.<\/span><\/p>\n

And then, in the aftermath\u2014I write about this a bit in the book\u2014but it\u2019s almost like being so raw and having my intellectual capacity pushed to the side. I would think things and put them out into the world like, \u201cOoh, it would be really cool to\u2026\u201d and then things would just happen. It felt very in the flow of life. And trying to get back to that state is hard when we get back to life and we get caught up in the minutiae, but again, realizing that there\u2019s just so much more going on than what meets the eye.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> [Yes.] One of the things you write about in <\/span>Trusting the Dawn<\/span><\/i> is the importance of how we share the narratives of traumas from our past. And I wanted to understand more about that and for you to actually demonstrate it to us. How might [you have] shared the narrative previously about whether it\u2019s the mudslide trauma or a different trauma in your life? You also write about some early sexual abuse that you experienced. How might you have shared that narrative previously, and knowing everything you know now, how do you talk about it? What language do you use?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MF:<\/b> Well, first, I\u2019ll start with the mudslide one and then the childhood abuse, because there\u2019s so many more years with that one. But the mudslide, something that really helped me, it was the EMDR that I did and the thinking with the therapist I worked with about my perpetual loop in my head right after the mudslide was, \u201cI almost died. Everyone I know almost died. My mom should have died, my kids.\u201d It was very reactive and very me in the victim role.<\/span><\/p>\n

Just switching around the wording of, \u201cI survived the mudslide. My loved ones survived the mudslide. We were divinely protected in the mudslide. I survived so that I may help other trauma survivors.\u201d Shifting that narrative from one of victim to empowered survivor, that helped me a lot.<\/span><\/p>\n

And when I was seven, I was molested by this 70-year-old man, and for decades I\u2019ve been working on it in different ways. But really dragging that story around with me and guilt and shame and all of it.<\/span><\/p>\n

And then through healing from the mudslide, I actually did MDMA therapy. And in that therapy session, I thought we\u2019d just be looking at the mudslide. And then this understanding that just like the mudslide was a force of nature that came down that mountain and I happened to be in its path, whatever was moving through that man was a force of nature and I just happened to be in his path. So for me, switching that story around again, it actually had nothing to do with me. It had to do with the force of nature.<\/span><\/p>\n

For me, it was really healing and depersonalizing\u2014is that a word?\u2014in the best way. I think especially with sexual abuse, we can feel like so much it\u2019s our fault or did we do something? And nope, nothing to do with me. Everything to do with this other person.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> [Yes.] Now let me ask you a question, because there\u2019s some nuances here that I think are important. One has to do with the use of the word \u201cvictim,\u201d which is, I think, some people especially, gosh, a child who suffers sexual abuse, they <\/span>are<\/span><\/i> a victim, in a certain sense. And yet, I understand the power also of telling our stories from a different perspective. So how do you make sense of that?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MF: <\/b>Yes, so there\u2019s two things I want to say about that, because I, too, struggled with that. And a lot of spiritual teachings and different practitioners in all different walks would say, \u201cYou have to take 100 percent responsibility for everything in your life.\u201d And that was one question I had, \u201cWell, how can you expect a seven-year-old or a child to take responsibility for something so awful?\u201d And I like what one spiritual teacher said. It was, \u201cNo, don\u2019t expect that child to take responsibility. You expect the adult that child grows up to become to take responsibility for the healing of that child.\u201d So that was one thing that, for me, I was like, \u201cOK. OK. I understand that. I can wrap my head around that.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

The second thing I want to say about the use of the word \u201cvictim\u201d and this idea of victimization, I interviewed this incredible woman named Dr. Edith Eger, who is a Holocaust survivor and she\u2019s written two books called <\/span>The Choice<\/span><\/i> and <\/span>The Gift<\/span><\/i>. She\u2019s had a thriving therapy practice in La Jolla for decades. And she says victimization is part of life. If you live long enough, we\u2019re all going to be victimized in one way or another. Victimhood is a choice. We can choose to stay in that state, or we can use what happened to us and transform that experience out of victim<\/span>hood<\/span><\/i>. And I think what I\u2019m talking about is this survivor state of being. It\u2019s much more empowering.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>[Yes.] That\u2019s really helpful. Victim<\/span>hood<\/span><\/i>, that word \u201c-hood,\u201d that suffix, as a place where you live, where you take up residency versus \u201cYes, I was victimized in this situation.\u201d I think that\u2019s very, very helpful, that distinction. Now I\u2019m going to keep going on this slightly nuanced track because I think it\u2019s really important, because in the book <\/span>Trusting the Dawn<\/span><\/i> it\u2019s very powerful how you help us, and you use the word \u201creframe.\u201d You help us reframe our experiences. And I know from my own life, from various sufferings that I\u2019ve had, reframing it and understanding it from a different vantage point is so useful. How do we do that, though, without any kind of \u201cspiritual bypassing,\u201d without in any way saying, \u201cWe\u2019re going to pretend that these awful feelings we have aren\u2019t really there, and we\u2019re just going to shove them aside\u201d? What\u2019s your perspective on that?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MF:<\/b> Well, I think the first thing is, it does take time. It takes probably longer than most people want it to. I think it also does take healing work. It\u2019s hard to do it by ourselves. I think we can get stuck in these loops, understandably. I\u2019ve gotten stuck in many a loop and needed other people to throw the line down and help pull me out. I\u2019m not suggesting that we Pollyanna anything, and when those hard feelings come up, I think it\u2019s important to honor them. First of all, to name them, to honor them, to journal about them, to work on them with somebody, a therapist\u2014there\u2019s so many different healing modalities I list in the book, so finding whatever feels right to you to begin to massage those feelings.<\/span><\/p>\n

And one of the key things from so many different schools of thought is this concept of integration of the traumatic experience or the suffering, so it\u2019s not a splintered-off other and it\u2019s not something we\u2019re trying to get out. But it is how can we work with the narrative, reframe it in a way that just becomes part of our story, but not <\/span>the<\/span><\/i> story, if that makes sense.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> It does. And I wanted to talk to you about this notion of integration. You write about how, in many ways, integration may, in fact, be really the key to understanding the trauma healing process. So tell me what that means, from your experience, to have integrated a past trauma?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MF:<\/b> Well, I think as I was [INAUDIBLE], I feel like anytime we say if it\u2019s a bad feeling or a traumatic memory or anytime we say, \u201cDon\u2019t think of the elephant,\u201d we\u2019re all thinking of the elephant. So how do we begin to wrap our heads around what happened and our hearts around it? And for me, sharing about that seven-year-old experience, through doing talk therapy and then actually the MDMA and then I took ketamine.<\/span><\/p>\n

You\u2019re talking to a girl, Tami, who grew up in the \u201980s, in Nancy Reagan\u2019s \u201cJust say no\u201d era. And I say no to drugs, and I have found the ketamine was so incredibly helpful to me, again, in that depersonalizing and the ability to think about the night of the mudslide and the aftermath and those experiences of sexual abuse in a way that they\u2019re not triggering. It\u2019s not going to send my heart racing or put me into a panic attack. So that, I think, is the goal of integration. How do we de-accelerate, if that\u2019s the right word, or take the charge out of it?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> [Yes.] Tell me more. I\u2019d love to get some more of an understanding, both of the MDMA therapy that you did. I mean, you\u2019re quite a trauma healing explorer. In <\/span>Trusting the Dawn<\/span><\/i>, you offer a whole compendium of different approaches, including describing ketamine and MDMA therapy for healing trauma. But for people who aren\u2019t familiar with how it works, I\u2019d love to hear your personal experience as well and what you discovered.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MF:<\/b> So I love this idea and this is actually I couldn\u2019t even [INAUDIBLE] it when I was finished with getting my master\u2019s in psych that, intellectually, I could understand and I could talk out and understand things that had happened to me. And then it still felt like there was more that kept coming up that I wanted to get to. So that\u2019s why I just dove into this journey of getting underneath these traumas. So ketamine therapy\u2014ketamine is the most powerful and also the gentlest psychedelic. It\u2019s the only psychedelic that is, right now, legal in our country, so they use it actually, at much higher doses, as an anesthetic for children in hospitals.<\/span><\/p>\n

If used properly\u2014I did mine with a psychiatrist, and if it\u2019s something that interests you, I\u2019d recommend working with a psychiatrist, doing sessions before you do the ketamine, do a few sessions of the ketamine, and then you have integration follow-up. I think there\u2019s these places popping up where you can just pop in and do a ketamine infusion. I don\u2019t recommend doing that. Don\u2019t do that.<\/span><\/p>\n

So the way it works is with my psychiatrist, Dr. Jeff Becker, who\u2019s brilliant and kind and gentle and all of it, he talks you through it. He injected it into my upper arm, and it has a very short half-life, so it lasts about 20 minutes. And the only way I can think of to describe it is it\u2019s like all of your senses merge. It feels like you\u2019re falling. It feels like you\u2019re almost in dark velvet or warm water, and you can\u2014not scary like acid trips I\u2019ve heard described. It was nothing scary. It was all very soothing and warm and this love and feeling like, \u201cOh, my gosh, this level of consciousness is here all the time, but we\u2019re not accessing it regularly.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

But in the first ketamine experience, actually, I had a vision of the mudslide. I was over the Pacific looking back in the mountains of Montecito, and I felt warm and safe. And it almost looked like one of those Renaissance oil paintings. It looked beautiful, and there were these angels that were pouring the mud down the mountain. And at the same time, I could see these golden threads almost of them pulling up the people that lost their lives that day. And it was just this whole, for me, like, \u201cOh.\u201d It was, again, what I\u2019m saying, it was an act of nature. It was, again, not personal. It just is. After that experience, the triggers around the mudslide abated for me, so that helped a lot.<\/span><\/p>\n

I also had a vision of that seven-year-old Mary with that 70-year-old man. And out of the darkness, this gorilla\u2019s face materializes. And first I thought, \u201cOh, am I afraid of this gorilla?\u201d No, this gorilla is a good gorilla. And the gorilla scooped the little seven-year-old Mary out of the scene away from that man and off to safety. And Dr. Becker, after we were talking, he\u2019s like, \u201cWell, that was your fierce gorilla self showing up and protecting that seven-year-old self.\u201d So images like that that really helped tremendously.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> [Yes.] Now it\u2019s interesting. You\u2019ve used this word \u201cdepersonalizing,\u201d that somehow you were able to get a certain kind of distance from the experience instead of being so identified as \u201cThis happened to me.\u201d What I\u2019m curious about, and really, in many ways, this has been a curiosity that has fueled all of Sounds True for almost four decades now, is who or what is that \u201cI\u201d that is integrating these experiences with this increasing sense of depersonalization, if you will? And I\u2019d love to understand your experience of that just firsthand, first-person experience of the integrated self. Who is that \u201cI\u201d?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MF:<\/b> Tami, I love that question because that kept coming up for me too. And again, when you reach these altered states of consciousness, and you can do it through holotropic breathwork. You don\u2019t have to take any drugs at all. There\u2019s a lot of ways in and meditation even. But, yes, who\u2019s the \u201cI\u201d watching that \u201cI\u201d watching the \u201cI\u201d from the past? Yes, I think that\u2019s something that I\u2019m still incredibly curious about and want to keep exploring different ways to merge the \u201cI\u2019s.\u201d Is the \u201cI\u201d that thinks it was personal just my ego? Or is there some higher Mary \u201cI\u201d? So I think I\u2019m still working to understand that and working to be a more integrated \u201cI\u201d and the \u201cI\u201d that I know exists in these other realms, bringing that \u201cI\u201d to the present as much as I can.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> [Yes.] So now in terms of healing trauma as a journey of integration, I want to talk to that person who says, \u201cI\u2019ve had some distance from this thing that happened to me, and I feel it\u2019s integrated, to some degree, in my life story and the narrative. And I can even frame it in a way where I see how it generated growth in my life, but the truth is, I still get triggered. I still get triggered by this or that, and it still happens.\u201d What would you say to that person? That means it\u2019s not fully integrated? There\u2019s more work to do? Or is that just what it is? Is that just how it is for huge events that have impacted us?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MF:<\/b> I think healing is an ongoing journey. I think we can never \u201cHeal\u2014check!\u201d No, I think that things will continue to come up and that\u2019s OK. And again, that\u2019s not a failure. You\u2019re not failing at your healing if stuff keeps coming up. It comes up for me too. And that\u2019s why there\u2019s so many different tools that I use and people that I turn to and go back to. With EMDR, I did a lot at the beginning, and then I was fine or doing much better, and then I got triggered and I went back. Same thing with ketamine. I did three journeys at the beginning of my trauma, and then I actually wound up getting divorced and went back to do a ketamine session around that and healing that. So there\u2019s going to be the old traumas. There\u2019s going to be new traumas. Again, it\u2019s part of this experience [INAUDIBLE], I think.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>And before we move on, you also mentioned MDMA, and I\u2019m curious if you could share what you learned from that experience.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MF:<\/b> Yes, so MDMA, which street name [is] Ecstasy, is a heart-opener. And unlike ketamine, which is a psychedelic and you\u2019re unaware of your body, your space where you are, with MDMA, you\u2019re still very much aware of your surroundings and your physical body. So I used that as a tool to\u2014the ketamine\u2019s so powerful, and I feel like, again, there\u2019s one more layer. We could keep going and going. And that was the one that was really\u2014I realized with the MDMA, I\u2019m like, \u201cOh, the triggers for me with the mudslide, at the moment, are pretty resolved. I\u2019m not getting triggered around it. I feel like I\u2019m in an OK space with it.\u201d And then that was where, again, the sexual abuse came up and I had that vision of the nature moving through.<\/span><\/p>\n

You can do journeys. They last much longer. Whereas ketamine\u2019s half-life is 20 minutes, you can do an MDMA journey that lasts eight hours, so it\u2019s much more of a time commitment. It\u2019s also not legal yet. They are a lot of organizations working to legalize MDMA for therapeutic reasons. So it\u2019s another interesting tool, another way in.<\/span><\/p>\n

I love the breathwork too. I know we\u2019re talking about the pharmacology part, but for people that that might not be right for, there\u2019s the holotropic breathwork, which, frankly, that was almost as intense an experience just by using your breath alone. And that, again, drops you into this subconscious state, and the man that founded it, Stanislav Grof, he was using MDMA in his work in the Czech Republic, I think. And then when he moved here, it\u2019s illegal, so he developed this way of breathing that can induce a similar state. I would recommend that.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

[ADVERTISEMENT]<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> You\u2019ve been listening to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>. What happens when we begin to identify as love, you could say, as the soul beyond constructs? What changes when you see yourself and others through a loving gaze? Perhaps everything. With her new book, <\/span>How to Be Loving<\/span><\/i>, Danielle LaPorte brings us a guide on how to use the intelligence of your heart to create conditions for connection and healing. You can find out more about <\/span>How to Be Loving<\/span><\/i> at daniellelaporte.com\/howtobeloving. And now back to <\/span>Insights at the<\/span><\/i> Edge<\/span><\/i>.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>As I mentioned, you offer a whole collection of approaches and resources and practices that people can use, a wide range. And you write about it from your first-person experience, your own healing journey. You have a master\u2019s in clinical psychology. And it\u2019s interesting to me because in listening to you, I hear the person. I hear the person who sought out these tools for their own healing path. And I\u2019m curious, when you bring in, for a moment, the psychologist, how your training intersected with your own inner journey and inner discovery?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MF: <\/b>That\u2019s a good question. Yes, and I think it is so personal. And I did want to write this in a way that people felt\u2014I feel like there\u2019s so many books that talk at you, and actually, in reading a lot of those books that I respect and I\u2019ve learned from, that I almost was re-traumatized in the reading of them. So I wanted very much my approach of this book, for the reader to feel like I was with them and that I understood and that they weren\u2019t alone and they didn\u2019t have to do this alone. And maybe that\u2019s not terribly clinical of me, so I think I went the other way with the training almost. I think it offered a good frame.<\/span><\/p>\n

And in the beginning part of the book, I talk about what happens to the brain and the body after trauma. And then if you want to get into it further, please refer to Bessel van der Kolk\u2019s books. And I also consulted with Dr. Pat Ogden. She\u2019s a trauma specialist, and this is her wheelhouse. So I brought in the more academic aspect, but I really wanted this to feel personal while grounded and framed in science and then some psychology.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> And <\/span>Trusting the Dawn<\/span><\/i> does feel personal, and it feels like a kind of accompaniment, so you succeeded. There\u2019s a sense of a real person, a loving person, someone who\u2019s gone through their own ordeals, reaching out a hand and saying, \u201cWe can walk through this together.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Now in describing your own journey, you talk about the traumas you experienced as a type of initiation, and I wanted to understand more about that. I mean, people sometimes say whenever anything really hard [happens], \u201cOh, that\u2019s an initiation.\u201d And I think, \u201cOK.\u201d But initiated into what? What were you initiated into?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MF:<\/b> Tami, I was asking that question for\u2014because it kept coming up. There\u2019s a Jungian psychologist thought, \u201cOh, you\u2019ve been initiated.\u201d Well, initiated to what exactly? And this shaman in the Arizona desert, \u201cYou\u2019ve been initiated.\u201d To what? So I kept asking that question and researching it. Well, in the shamanic tradition, they believe that a near-death experience initiates you.<\/span><\/p>\n

Any time the veil between life and death collapses, they view it as an initiation, so you\u2019ve seen behind the veil, I suppose. And when I started thinking about it and talking about it, I do think trauma, anytime we\u2019re brought up against mortality, whether our own or someone close to us or someone we don\u2019t even know, but we feel it. Life is so fragile. I feel like it\u2019s the initiation to that. It\u2019s this gift, in a weird way, of recognizing how fragile life is so we can wrap our arms around it and live it more fully and recognize why we\u2019re really here, which is, I think, to connect more, to love more, to uplift more, and to celebrate this incredible planet that we happen to be getting to live on right now.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>[Yes.] So did you think of yourself as a healer and a spokesperson before the mudslide event? And then did this initiate you at a deeper level?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MF:<\/b> [Yes.] That\u2019s a good question. So my sister and I, Lucy, we\u2019ve been running these retreats for women for a decade now. And we really wanted to just offer everything that had been working for us to people. So we\u2019ve done them all over in Ojai and Malibu and Aspen, and we just did our first one in the Caribbean recently, which was really amazing. But so we\u2019ve always been facilitating and leading these smaller groups. And we have an essential oil-based perfume. Everything we put in there is to make you feel a certain way, not just smell good. I talk a little bit about aromatherapy in the book too. So I\u2019ve had that framework. I\u2019ve had that background of wanting to help and offer resources to others and then, yes, I would say that the mudslide was definitely an initiation to a deeper layer of being able to really then connect with others.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> You share in <\/span>Trusting the Dawn<\/span><\/i> that part of the process, for you, of writing the book and healing trauma after the mudslide had to do with coming more forward with your own voice and how that brought up past-life imagery or things that you thought were maybe past lives. But certainly the imagery of, \u201cI\u2019m going to be executed or hung or burned or whatever.\u201d I\u2019ve heard this described in other podcasts that I posted. I\u2019ve also heard it described\u2014and one person that I interviewed described it as the \u201cwitch wound.\u201d And I also know in my own life, as someone who\u2019s been through a process of coming forward as a public person, I had to go through, \u201cOh, my God, I\u2019m going to speak up and they\u2019re going to kill me.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

And it was quite a thing to realize, \u201cNo, actually, that\u2019s not what\u2019s happening. You\u2019re going to be criticized, yes, but they\u2019re not going to kill you, most likely. You\u2019re just probably going to get some nasty comments.\u201d So I\u2019m curious to know a bit about that journey for you.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MF:<\/b> Yes, the witch wound, that\u2019s funny, because that happened. I had, through the breathwork and then past-life regression, and then even in a bit of the ketamine experiences as well, I kept having visions of getting killed or the smoke coming up around my ankles from being burned or being a female knight. I was not Joan of Arc, although I\u2019m like, \u201cMaybe I was!\u201d No, no, everyone\u2019s not Joan of Arc, but I was definitely a female knight and I was killed in battle. I know it was a battle for something good. So I had all these images and this fear too, \u201cYes, oh, my gosh. I\u2019m going to put myself out there in this way. I\u2019m going to get killed.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

And the breathwork teacher, she, too, she was like, \u201cOh, yes, the witch wound. Yes. Yes. Yes.\u201d So I guess that is a thing. And I realized this time, a friend just the other day said to me, \u201cWell, no, this time you just had to almost get killed to help others.\u201d So I\u2019m not going to get killed this time for helping others, but perhaps my own near-death experience is what is initiating me to be able to help other people with something.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> And what would you say to someone who is in the midst of coming forward more with their voice but does have a fear, a fear of being criticized, humiliated, or killed or anything in that range?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MF:<\/b> Yes. Well, first of all, I think be willing to just practice it. Be careful who you\u2019re going to speak it to. If you\u2019re in an abusive situation, don\u2019t speak it there, but find safe platforms to begin speaking more, whether it\u2019s close friends, whether it\u2019s a teacher, whether it\u2019s a therapist. Start practicing more and more. And I think what I\u2019m realizing in speaking my truth and speaking up, it gives other people permission to then speak up themselves. And like especially as women, growing up how I did on the East Coast and very proper, and I have a Southern mother and then a WASP-y dad, so it was always, \u201cJust look pretty and do all the things you\u2019re supposed to do.\u201d I love my parents. They\u2019re wonderful. But it was definitely the culture of you definitely don\u2019t speak up.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> [Yes.] Now past-life regression and the hypnosis that is part of a past-life regression therapy also seemed to be quite helpful to you on your healing-from-trauma journey. Can you share a bit about that?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MF:<\/b> Yes. I\u2019d love to. She\u2019s like, \u201cWe\u2019re going to hypnotize you.\u201d It\u2019s not going to work, not going to work. It worked! The woman I did it with, Niki Cozmo, she said out of hundreds of people she has worked with, only two could not be hypnotized. So anyway, just want to say that it worked, and yes, I think it was a really powerful experience for me. The one that really stood out the most was the female knight. And again for me in my integration afterwards\u2014was instead of waiting for the prince to ride in and save me, and on the ketamine, I saved myself with the gorilla and I actually rode off on the back of a white horse. I saw that.<\/span><\/p>\n

In a past-life regression, I had my own sword and I fought for myself and had my own white horse. So I like that idea too of finding, through these different therapies, it was finding my own inner strength, which again, I think goes to speaking up too. It\u2019s all different forms of strength, whether it was kicking it, wielding our sword around\u2026<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Now, Mary, let\u2019s say someone\u2019s listening to this, and they\u2019re like, \u201cYes, this all sounds great. I don\u2019t have the resources to have a ketamine series of sessions or see a past-life regression hypnotist. Once again, Sounds True is sharing a bunch of ideas that are out of range for me.\u201d What would be your response to that?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MF:<\/b> Absolutely. So meditation is something. It\u2019s a great way in. It\u2019s so widely accessible these days. So I would say you could start with meditation. You could start even, I\u2019ve referred to EMDR a couple times. I reference a woman in the book named Dr. Laurel Parnell. She wrote a book called <\/span>Tapping In<\/span><\/i>, and she walks you through. And even in the book, I walk you through a little Butterfly Tapping exercise that can be done at home and it\u2019s free. Aromatherapy and flower essences, they\u2019re maybe not free, but they\u2019re pretty accessible. If you have a health food store, the Bach flower remedies are a good place to start with flower essences. And a Whole Foods or something will have aromatherapy. You could play around with that.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Which aromatherapies and flower essences did you find particularly effective for you?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MF:<\/b> There\u2019s a company I love called LOTUSWEI. She makes flower essences that you can spray on yourself or put them on your tongue. They\u2019re in water. And they\u2019re amazing. I have a whole chapter about that in the book. But they take the essence of the plant or the flower, distill it into water. And everything has an energetic vibration. Different plants and flowers have energetic vibrations. So they will guide you into what you\u2019re looking for and what would be a good one to go with. I think the aspen tree is a good one for trauma. Spotted bee balm is another good one. Oh, and then I also want to say qigong, Chinese medicine. Qigong is a form of energy cultivation that is free, and I have found that incredibly helpful. It\u2019s literally 24 movements, and that\u2019s helped me a lot. Journaling is great. Wow. I reference a couple different books that I turn to, self-help books that have been great resources, so there\u2019s lots of ways to come at this, regardless of your budget.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> [Yes.] Now I focused in on the ketamine therapy, the past-life regression, MDMA, and you also mentioned holotropic breathwork. And I think part of it is because I have this interest in how altered states, if you will, or expanded states of consciousness can be helpful in healing trauma. And I wonder what your view is of that, the power of these expanded states.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MF:<\/b> Honestly, Tami, I say to Jeff Becker, who helped me with the ketamine, \u201cYou changed my life.\u201d Accessing those altered states through the breathwork and the ketamine and the MDMA, past-life regression, it changed my life. The way that I look at life now is so much broader and bigger. And it also gave me some\u2014I feel like I had this feeling that there\u2019s something wrong with me that I\u2019ve been in therapy for decades and talking it out and doing my work. And yet I would still feel this underlying anxiety or tension or that there was something more to work on. And I feel like accessing the altered states helped me so much in getting underneath it. And again, just knowing that there\u2019s so many different levels, and should I feel that way again, then I\u2019m going to get right back under there and that I now have the tools to do it.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> [Yes.] Now you mentioned, Mary, that you got divorced in the post-mudslide period. Here you are. You\u2019re doing all of this healing work, and now your marriage changes as well. Do you feel that part of it was that you went on such a deep journey that you changed in certain ways? And I wonder if you can speak to that because I think sometimes people can be afraid of doing really deep healing work, because they think, \u201cAnd it could be the end of my marriage if I do this.\u201d So can you share a bit about that?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MF:<\/b> Yes. When I started researching, because I have a chapter at the end about relationships in the wake of trauma, and I remember when I started researching it, there\u2019s some research that shows that a lot of couples wind up breaking up after surviving a traumatic event, which terrified me. And yet, I am so passionate about this work. And also having children, there was no way I wasn\u2019t going to do my healing work because I also wanted to not pass things down to them as best I could. And I do think Napper and I are still great friends, and we\u2019re great co-parents. But ultimately, I took this healing journey that opened up my heart and my life and my understanding in such a way that we weren\u2019t a right love match anymore. And I know it can be scary, and I also have to say that, to me, to stay in something that is not giving you the support and the will to do this exploring, that\u2014no. Do it. Make the change.<\/span><\/p>\n

And actually now I have a wonderful partner who\u2019s a healer himself, and it\u2019s been really such a gift, and Napper has a great new girlfriend, so it all worked out. Sometimes relationships change form, and Shakti Malan talks about that and not being afraid of it. And Mark Nepo, actually. I love Mark Nepo, the spiritual teacher. He shared with me, he said, \u201cIf you picture a couple in a body of water, sometimes a boulder gets dropped to the side of them and they get propelled together in a direction. And sometimes the boulder gets dropped between the two people, and they get propelled apart from each other.\u201d So again, this idea that, I don\u2019t know, well, I don\u2019t want to say that\u2019s not personal because it is personal. You\u2019re in the relationship. But not to be afraid and to hold on to something that isn\u2019t right just because the alternative is fear.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> [Yes.] I\u2019m going to actually even go a little deeper into that because I am really curious about it. Did you start feeling the tendrils of that change coming as you were doing deeper and deeper healing work? Did you start to sense it, and did you have to then say, \u201cOh, I\u2019m going to have to work out this fear,\u201d especially with children and everything? How did you work through it?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MF: <\/b>Well, first of all, I would say Napper and I had been working really hard on our marriage even before we got engaged in our 20s. So this was a relationship where we were always working on it, and I\u2019ve always been so insistent in self-development and altered states and all. And he would come along with me as best he could and as interested as he was or wasn\u2019t. So I just want to make that clear, that we were working on things before the mudslide. And then the trauma thrust us closer together for a while as we were working on putting our life back together, finding a place to live, having another baby.<\/span><\/p>\n

And then after that, the first thing\u2014it was the very beginning of COVID, and Joe Dispenza, who I love, I was like, \u201cWe\u2019re going to do Joe Dispenza\u2019s meditations together.\u201d And Joe Dispenza says when you first start doing this work really intensely, be prepared for your life to look like chaos, and the things that are no longer in a vibrational match will fall away. Don\u2019t be afraid of it. It\u2019s all part of the process. Literally, we did two months of the Joe Dispenza meditation classes and that was when it was like, \u201cOh, we\u2019re not meant to be together anymore.\u201d So that was pretty powerful.<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>[Yes.] Mary, what I have to say I\u2019m really appreciating about this conversation is something that I would call \u201creal talk,\u201d meaning you\u2019re just so real with me here as I\u2019m asking you these very personal, challenging questions about your inner life and inner process. And I just want to take a moment and appreciate that and appreciate that in you. It\u2019s a type of confidence in the truth that I don\u2019t always find, and I just want to acknowledge you for that. Thank you.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MF:<\/b> Thank you, Tami.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Now you mentioned that you interviewed Dr. Edith Eger as part of your book. She\u2019s written a book called <\/span>The Choice<\/span><\/i>. And I couldn\u2019t help but note the subtitle of <\/span>Trusting the Dawn<\/span><\/i>, <\/span>How to Choose Freedom and Joy After Trauma<\/span><\/i>. And I wanted to talk a little bit about this notion of the power of choice and how you see that and the choices that we make. Maybe some people think like, \u201cGod, all these feelings. I don\u2019t have a choice. This is what\u2019s going on. I mean, I\u2019m suffering.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MF:<\/b> Yes, and sometimes we don\u2019t have the choice. I feel like even the other day, \u201cGosh, I\u2019m so anxious today. I don\u2019t know why, and I\u2019m feeling really overwhelmed with that.\u201d So I think, again, going back to our earlier conversation of acknowledging the feeling and do I have a choice in that immediate moment to feel joyful? Maybe not. But I\u2019m choosing to acknowledge the feeling. I\u2019m having the feeling. I know it will pass.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Back to <\/span>Trusting the Dawn<\/span><\/i>, that was meant metaphorically that when we\u2019re in a dark moment, trust that that moment will pass. And yes, Dr. Edie was so inspiring to me, thinking about, my gosh, if this woman can choose her joy and happiness after surviving Auschwitz, then it was very encouraging and inspiring to me. \u201cWell, she did it. I\u2019m going to do it too.\u201d And that\u2019s what I say too. Someone asked me, \u201cWell, but what about my trauma\u2019s not as bad as your trauma kind of thing?\u201d And Dr. Edie says there\u2019s no hierarchy of traumas. Everyone\u2019s trauma is the worst, because it happened to them. So I guess I tangented off away from your question on choice.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> I think what you\u2019ve said is powerful. It\u2019s powerful. Now you mentioned even the other day you started feeling anxious. And I know after the mudslides, you write about in <\/span>Trusting the Dawn<\/span><\/i> how you experienced panic attacks. Do you ever have a fear that you\u2019re going to have a panic attack again? And what do you do when you start feeling anxious that gives you confidence that you\u2019re not going to have a full-blown panic attack?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MF:<\/b> Yes, they\u2019re really scary. I\u2019ve always been pretty disciplined with my daily practices. And I say even when I\u2019m feeling great, \u201cEverything\u2019s great. I don\u2019t need to do it today.\u201d No, that\u2019s exactly the day that you need to do it because keeping a steady foundation, for me, then in those moments like the other day when I dipped down into feeling anxious, the dip is not as long and the coming back to my steady state is that much easier. So every day I practice qigong. I read something inspirational and do a gratitude letter. I write to God, but I know that\u2019s triggering with some people, so higher power, the universe, myself, whatever. And that helps me set the tone for the day.<\/span><\/p>\n

And yes, I think I know the anxiety will pass. I physically move my body, exercise, shake, jump around. I also take propranolol sometimes, which it helps with anxiety, public speaking, things like that. So those are some of my tools.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> All right, Mary, what is your hope that readers will get from <\/span>Trusting the Dawn<\/span><\/i>?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MF: <\/b>My hope is really for people to know that they\u2019re not alone and that if I can do it and if some of the other trauma survivors I interview in the book can do it, then you can do it too. And that life on the other side of healing from trauma can be that much more fulfilling and connected and wondrous.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> I\u2019ve been speaking with Mary Firestone. She\u2019s the author of the new book <\/span>Trusting the Dawn: How to Choose Freedom and Joy After Trauma<\/span><\/i>. And if you\u2019ve ever been curious about all of the different approaches that exist for how to work through a trauma, I can recommend <\/span>Trusting the Dawn<\/span><\/i> because Mary goes through in quite some detail and shares the methodology, the experience, and the results that she experienced as well. And it\u2019s a beautifully written book. Your heart shines through, Mary. Thank you.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MF:<\/b> Thank you, Tami.<\/span><\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Thanks for listening to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>. You can read a full transcript of today\u2019s interview at resources2.soundstrue.com\/podcast. That\u2019s resources2.soundstrue.com\/podcast. If you\u2019re interested, hit the subscribe button in your podcast app. And if you feel inspired, head to iTunes and leave <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i> a review. I absolutely love getting your feedback and being connected. Sounds True: waking up the world.<\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"template":"","meta":{"_expiration-date-status":"","_expiration-date":0,"_expiration-date-type":"","_expiration-date-categories":[],"_expiration-date-options":[]},"class_list":["post-19751","transcript","type-transcript","status-publish","hentry"],"yoast_head":"\nTrusting The Dawn Choosing Freedom And Joy After Trauma...<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Trusting The Dawn Choosing Freedom And Joy After Trauma. 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