{"id":19810,"date":"2022-11-22T16:08:52","date_gmt":"2022-11-22T23:08:52","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?post_type=transcript&p=19810"},"modified":"2022-11-22T16:08:52","modified_gmt":"2022-11-22T23:08:52","slug":"healing-conflict-listen-validate-then-explore-options","status":"publish","type":"transcript","link":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/healing-conflict-listen-validate-then-explore-options\/","title":{"rendered":"Healing Conflict: Listen, Validate, Then Explore Options"},"content":{"rendered":"
\"image_print\"Print Transcript<\/span><\/a><\/div>

Christian Conte: Healing Conflict: Listen, Validate, and Then Explore Options<\/b><\/p>\n


\n<\/span>Tami Simon:<\/b> Hello, friends. My name\u2019s Tami Simon, and I\u2019m the founder of Sounds True, and I want to welcome you to the Sounds True podcast: <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>. I also want to take a moment to introduce you to Sounds True\u2019s new membership community and digital platform. It\u2019s called Sounds True One. Sounds True One features original, premium, transformational docu-series, community events, classes to start your day and relax in the evening, special weekly live shows, including a video version of Insights at the Edge with an after-show community question-and-answer session with featured guests. I hope you\u2019ll come join us, explore, come have fun with us, and connect with others. You can learn more at join.soundstrue.com.<\/span><\/p>\n

I also want to take a moment and introduce you to the Sounds True Foundation, our nonprofit that creates equitable access to transformational tools and teachings. You can learn more at soundstruefoundation.org, and in advance, thank you for your support.<\/span><\/p>\n

Today my guest is Dr. Christian Conte. Christian is one of the country\u2019s most accomplished mental health specialists in the field of anger and emotional management. He\u2019s one of only a handful of people who have a level five anger management certification, which is the highest possible level. Christian currently trains correctional institutions, sports teams, and organizations in the practical application of his Yield Theory anger management program, and with Sound True, Dr. Christian Conte has written a new book called <\/span>Walking Through Anger<\/span><\/i>.<\/span><\/p>\n

In this conversation with Christian Conte he explains Yield Theory and the three steps: listen, validate, explore options. It sounds simple, but in my experience, it\u2019s pretty deep work and hard to master. Here\u2019s my conversation with a gifted guide, Dr. Christian Conte.<\/span><\/p>\n

To begin with, Christian, I\u2019d love if you could share with our listeners how you became an anger management specialist. What led up to that?<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

Christian Conte: <\/b>That is a wonderful question, and I wish it could just be a really quick, one-story answer, but the reality is it\u2019s complex but it\u2019s beautiful.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Please, tell us the whole thing. Don\u2019t rush.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

CC: <\/b>Well, so I was reflecting on this very same question when I was going through the process of writing this book, and I thought back to my childhood. There were two incidences that I think really began leading me to where I am today, the first one was this. My dad was a professor of Earth science, and so I was a haughty teenager and I said to him as a teenager, \u201cHey dad, what\u2019s the fun in studying rocks?\u201d He said, \u201cWell if you only ever live on one planet in your life, don\u2019t you think you ought to get to know that planet?\u201d I was like oh, it made a lot of sense.<\/span><\/p>\n

Later on in college, when I was lost, trying to figure out what to study, I thought about my dad\u2019s advice and the path he took, but I put a little twist on it. I thought \u201cWell, I\u2019m only ever going to live with me my whole life, so why not get to know myself?\u201d So I started to study psychology at that time, so that was the first thing that I think really even lead me down<\/span>
\n<\/span>this.<\/span><\/p>\n

Then I went back just even a little bit farther, and I thought about advice my mom gave me. My mom is this incredible person, she was a disciplinarian as a teacher. She was a high school English teacher, and I was going to be attending the high school were she taught. I went to school in the 80s where kids would circle up and fight, just like if young people today don\u2019t know that, and I hope they don\u2019t have to know that same kind of stuff that we went through, but they would circle up and fight. And my mom said to when we got to the high school, she said, \u201cListen, I better never find out that you ever watched a fight, and didn\u2019t step in and break it up.\u201d Listen, my mom might be small, but I was definitely more afraid of my mom than I was of the kids. I would step in all the time. I\u2019d be breaking up fights, kids would be mad at me, \u201cLet them<\/span>
\n<\/span>fight. Let them go.\u201d \u201cNah. You want to face my mom? You do that.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

I think that I learned early on, when I see conflict, don\u2019t run from it, go toward it, and combining that journey of personal growth, going into the depths of my own psyche and learning about myself, focusing constantly on what I can learn about me and then realizing that when something goes wrong, step in and do something, I think that\u2019s the impetus to get me in the<\/span>
\n<\/span>direction I was going.<\/span><\/p>\n

On the more recent level, when I was a professor, when I first started to be a professor, I sat in on some groups where they were doing anger management, and I went incognito, so I was just in my T-shirt and jeans, and I\u2019m a 6-foot, 250-pound bald guy with tattoos and a beard, I look like everybody else at a biker bar, and I went and I sat in on this group, and no one knew I was there. They just thought I was part of the group, I was one of the guys in the group. Two things shocked me and really set a fire in me to change things. The first was this, the teacher was extremely pejorative. He was condescending, he would talk down to them. \u201cSome of you guys are psychopaths, you\u2019re never going to change,\u201d I thought, \u201cMy goodness, how\u2019s somebody supposed to learn and change, do something different if that\u2019s what they\u2019re being told?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Then the other piece was this, some of the guys in this anger management group who had been convicted of a violent crime, were out on parole at this time, but it was outpatient, but they had to be at these groups. Well, in order to get through the group they had to write what was called a letter of accountability. The guys in the back of the room were looking at a guy<\/span>
\n<\/span>who was about to graduate the group, and they were looking at his letter, they said, \u201cNo, don\u2019t say these words. Change this, erase this, say this.\u201d He\u2019s back there scrambling, hurry up, writing exactly what he was supposed to write, and didn\u2019t care, wasn\u2019t involved in the class because obviously the teacher\u2019s shutting him down and others down, and so that\u2019s what<\/span>
\n<\/span>he turned in. Of course it fit the bureaucratic model of give you a piece of paper so I can demonstrate your accountability, and he passed. I thought, \u201cWell, he hasn\u2019t learned anything different, and he was involved in domestic violence, and the odds are he\u2019s going to be involved in domestic violence again.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

I started to take over these groups, and I did a study of Yield Theory many years ago and it was effective, and this is really how I got started in it, and I think I resonated a lot with the guys. The reality is, I am a tougher looking guy and definitely have physical strength, and I think guys, when it comes to those anger management groups, where especially many of these men intimidated people in their lives, they respected that at face value at first, so I was able to reach them. What I\u2019ll share with you today is it\u2019s nothing about acting intimidating or acting tough, but I also don\u2019t deny the reality that obviously when I walk in and start it\u2014listen, my first day in this group, I was running the group, my first day running it. Guy comes in he goes, \u201cThey\u2019re forming a line.\u201d I pointed to a guy who was coming in the door, I said, \u201cGo ahead and sign in here,\u201d he<\/span>
\n<\/span>said, \u201cNo, go ahead. You sign in first.\u201d I said, \u201cNo my man, I\u2019m Dr. Conte. You go ahead and sign in.\u201d He said, \u201cOh, I\u2019m Dr. Conte too.\u201d I said, \u201cWell actually, I am actually Dr. Conte, so I\u2019m going to need you to sign in and go ahead and sit down.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

I think the guys were like, \u201cOK, this guy, he\u2019s here with us,\u201d and my whole philosophy on life has been, my tagline has been, there are two kinds of people in the world, Tami. There are people who have issues, and dead people. If you\u2019re currently alive, you have issues, so do I, so does everyone. So my approach has always been I\u2019m with you, I\u2019m not better than you, I\u2019m not worse than you, we\u2019re all in this together. I might have come across some information that is valuable to you and I have an opportunity to share this with you, but of course, we could turn around and you could teach me something in the next moment. I think guys really liked that\u2014and not just guys, the men and women really like this, not this expert top down, but we\u2019re here together. Let me just shine light. Let me shine some light on what\u2019s going on. People really<\/span>
\n<\/span>responded to that.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Well, and of course, someone who\u2019s really angry, that could come in any kind of package. It could be a four-foot tall, skinny person. But in a way, you were kind of built for the work you\u2019re doing as an anger management specialist, as you describe yourself. I can see that.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

CC: <\/b>I believe with all of me that you are 1000 percent right. It does not matter the size, I just think initially, when I was thinking about why did I get into this, I think it was such a good fit when I was there, that I just kept going deeper and deeper into anger management. However, I always like to say it\u2019s not just anger management, it\u2019s emotional management, because so much more goes into anger. So much more.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>We\u2019re going to talk about that. Briefly you mentioned that there was a study done on Yield Theory, and Yield Theory is the approach that you\u2019ve created that describes emotional management in general, and how you work as a counselor. So all right, Dr. Christian Conte, introduce Yield Theory to our listeners.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

CC: <\/b>OK, wonderful. Yield Theory is an approach to communication that is predicated on meeting people where they are, leading with compassion, and using conscious education to help circumvent the fight-or-flight response. Maybe even more simply it\u2019s this: it\u2019s about interacting with people with compassion and conscious education.<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s recognizing that you can speak just to speak, and that\u2019s great, and lots of people do that all the time, but it\u2019s really about getting around people\u2019s defensiveness and the heat of emotions, and being able to speak in ways that actually connect with them.<\/span><\/p>\n

It came to me\u2014you know, in 1998 I had this\u2014I\u2019ve been an avid meditator for, I\u2019d say, my whole adult life, and out of a meditation I had this vision that if somebody was in a car and they were going down the highway the wrong way, and you wanted to stop them and you\u2019re in a car too, and you think, \u201cWell I could have a head-on collision, I would stop them,\u201d sure you\u2019d stop them, one or both of you might get awfully hurt. Or what if this happened? This is just a hypothetical, just a thought experiment, but what if you were to drive your car and merge with them, kind of at that yield sign and yield with them, merge with them, and you\u2019re driving along the road in the same direction they\u2019re going? Side by side. Eventually they start thinking, \u201cHey listen, this is going to be a long trip, let\u2019s save some gas,\u201d they invite you into their car. Again,<\/span>
\n<\/span>hypothetical. Now you\u2019re in the passenger seat and you\u2019re starting to see out of the same windshield they\u2019re seeing out of.<\/span><\/p>\n

Now you\u2019re starting to get a little bit better understanding.<\/span>
\n<\/span>Then eventually they get tired of this long journey and they trust you to drive, and in that spot you can help steer them down a different path. That was the initial analogy of really meeting people where they are\u2014not where you want them to be or think they should be, but meeting them where they actually are, and really trying to see the world from their perspective.<\/span><\/p>\n

I thought of this early, Tami, I thought, listen, I love the idea if I walk a mile in someone else\u2019s shoes, but this goes deeper than that. I imagine, what if I spent every day as the other person? In other words, not just my cognitive functioning, but their cognitive functioning. Not my ability to experience emotions, but their affective range. What if I had their life experiences? What I\u2019ve come to is I believe I would have made every single decision that that person made.<\/span><\/p>\n

Of course this is just a hypothetical, and of course we can\u2019t have a \u201cthis is the answer,\u201d but what we can do is this, when you realize that instead of saying, \u201cWell I would have one things differently,\u201d or, \u201cI had a tough life and I didn\u2019t do this,\u201d we say, \u201cWait a minute, if I really am that person, how can I say I would have done anything differently?\u201d Just that exercise is about saying, \u201cI\u2019m going to put aside my own stuff and recognize I don\u2019t need judgment here, I just need to assess the situation and figure out what I could do from this moment forward.\u201d<\/span>
\n<\/span>This is [a] powerful thing to really grasp because we\u2019re not saying we condone what they\u2019re doing\u2014because you have to remember I specialize in working with people convicted of violent crimes. They do things that are so awful I wouldn\u2019t even talk about it in public to make people have that in their psyches. But how do I do that work? I do it because I imagine if I was them\u2014I never met anyone who woke up and just did things to hurt others, that didn\u2019t have things happen to them.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now this idea of meeting people where they are, seeing through their eyes, walking in their shoes, it\u2019s so, so powerful, Christian. I want to talk about a little bit of why it\u2019s so hard for people, and quite honestly, I find it hard when people are really emotional. It could be anger, but it could also be something like grief or sadness, and when it\u2019s so intense, it can be hard for me not to jump directly to wanting to fix their situation. To actually join with them, it\u2019s unbelievably painful. I want to start there because how do you help people develop that capacity to be with that much intense emotion? Whether it\u2019s anger, or grief, or whatever it might be.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

CC: <\/b>I just love that question because it comes from a really good place to want to fix other people\u2019s emotions. It comes from such a beautiful, loving place. But the reality is we don\u2019t fix other people\u2019s emotions\u2014all we can do is make ourselves a safe space. We can become a mirror to help them see themselves and help them get them into the position that is best for them, or get them out of what they\u2019re in, in that suffering.<\/span><\/p>\n

I talk about these five errors of communication that we make, and one of them is called the error of omnipotence, when we believe we\u2019re responsible for what others do. This is an error\u2014and it\u2019s omnipotence, all-powerful, this error, belief that we\u2019re all-powerful, that we can fix it. I can\u2019t fix it. I can\u2019t pull you out of hell, but I can sit in the fires of hell with you.<\/span><\/p>\n

Compassion is about suffering with the person. It\u2019s not about fixing the person, but suffering with the person, and in a sense\u2014and I\u2019ll explain it as we talk, we have things in our brain such as mirror neurons that help us really get to the heart of empathy with watching what\u2019s going on with others. But I believe the reason why I can sit in that is this, this is really what it is. I believe in the human spirit. I believe people are strong enough to get through what\u2019s being presented to them. I really, truly believe in people.<\/span><\/p>\n

More than 20,000 hours of clinical experience, people have asked me, \u201cHave you ever cried with a client?\u201d Now, if I\u2019m being completely honest, there were times when I was driving home, many times I was driving home from work where the stories were so overwhelming that I burst out then, but I\u2019ve never cried when I was with clients. The reason is twofold.<\/span><\/p>\n

One, I wanted to be a rock for them, to be able to show them, look, your problems aren\u2019t so bad that your counselor\u2019s breaking down. And two, I realized, \u201cHold on a second, there is a beginning, middle and end to every emotional situation, and I believe in the strength of the person in front of me, that they will get through that beginning, middle and end. I believe<\/span>
\n<\/span>in them.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

I think it\u2019s only our egos that really want to truly fix it, because then we\u2019re like, \u201cHey look, I helped you.\u201d For me, whether or not I help you or not, what matters is, can I shine light and can I be a space of compassion for you?<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Do you think that if somebody is not at home, cannot hold this space for the depth of their own anger or sadness, or whatever the emotion is, that that\u2019s what is the impediment to suffer with another person, that we have to be able to hold that space for ourself?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

CC: <\/b>Yes. That\u2019s why for me, I say all the time, in Yield Theory the focus is on you controlling the only person over whom you actually have control, and that\u2019s you. If you can get to know yourself well enough, you\u2019ll start to understand what you\u2019re projecting on others, how your defense mechanisms are kicking in, what\u2019s getting in the way? What are the obstacles? The more you can clean on yourself and get yourself in a space of clarity, the more reflective you\u2019re going to be able to be that mirror for others.<\/span>
\n<\/span>
\n<\/span>TS: <\/b>Because you mentioned that you work with violent criminals, and how in your own upbringing, your mother said to you at a young age, \u201cWhen there\u2019s conflict, you step in. You be the peacemaker.\u201d But I think for a lot of people, they grew up in environments where conflict was something to be avoided. A lot of people are conflict avoidant. I\u2019m conflict avoidant, I go the other way. Now, if somebody\u2019s really angry, the last thing such people may want to do is hold the space for someone\u2019s anger. They\u2019re not used to that.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

CC: <\/b>Right. This is why I said there are two different kind of people. I think there are two worlds we live in. One is what I call the cartoon world. The cartoon world is our world of \u201cshoulds.\u201d People shouldn\u2019t be responding like that. People shouldn\u2019t take that perspective. People should see the word the way I do. Then we look at what I call the real world, which is how the world actually is. As long as we align our expectations with the cartoon world, we\u2019re let down. Why aren\u2019t they doing\u2014they should be doing this! But when we can learn to align our expectations with the reality of the way the world is, then we can be more prepared to enter it.<\/span><\/p>\n

So, not dealing with conflict doesn\u2019t necessarily make it go away. In fact, it rarely does. It usually makes it build up. It\u2019s not a matter of not addressing it, but I think the reason why people tend to shy away from conflict is, on the deepest neurological level, conflict can lead to anger and violence, and ultimately, as self-preserving beings, when we know that something might lead to violence that could threaten our existence.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

I think it\u2019s a continuum. We trace it all the way back and say, \u201cWait a minute, now we\u2019re in this present moment, and something says as soon as there\u2019s conflict, I don\u2019t want this conflict. It\u2019s going to be uncomfortable. I\u2019m not going to like it.\u201d But yet\u2014I would ask you this and I would like to ask other out there listening, would you say that part of why you are who you are today is because you were able to overcome conflict?<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Sure.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

CC: <\/b>Like there were things in your life that you had obstacles, and you didn\u2019t become who you are by having everything fall into place for you.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Sure.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

CC: <\/b>So if we know that we didn\u2019t just have everything handed to us on a platter, we had to [<\/span>inaudible<\/span><\/i>] and we had to overcome that stuff, then I say why not practice how we can approach people in those situations without feeling so vulnerable?<\/span><\/p>\n

This is what I feel like I arm people with in <\/span>Walking Through Anger<\/span><\/i>, because here\u2019s a way to communicate with someone who\u2019s angry; it doesn\u2019t mean it\u2019s going to be easy if you don\u2019t like the anger and other stuff, because it\u2019s not about saying I like yelling or the anger, especially if it\u2019s directed at me, but I understand that it\u2019s not personal. It\u2019s that person. It\u2019s what that person\u2019s experiencing on the deepest level. It\u2019s not personal toward me, because people can\u2019t give you what\u2019s not inside them.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

]TS: <\/b>OK. Take us through the Yield Theory in action. Maybe you could give us an example of how you would apply it in a real-life situation, working with someone who\u2019s really angry about something.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

CC: <\/b>OK. The core of Yield Theory, I\u2019ll give you just a real-life example first and then I\u2019ll break down what the core of it is. Again, it\u2019s about meeting people where they are, and let me just say the core, fundamental actions are listen, validate, and explore options.<\/span><\/p>\n

One day I was in a maximum-security prison, it was actually a super max, and an inmate got sent to the hole because he threatened a teacher\u2019s life. He\u2019s down there in the hole, he\u2019s furious, I mean enraged. He\u2019s screaming, banging, and they asked me to talk to him. I went over, he called me down to come to this unit, so I come down to this unit and I hear him yelling and screaming, so I said, \u201cWell tell me what happened.\u201d He said, \u201cThe teacher took my paper and ripped it up in front of everyone, in front of the class.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Now I don\u2019t know whether or not the teacher picked it up and ripped up his paper in front of everyone. I have no idea if it happened exactly like this or not. I know that in this moment, this is his perception. I said to him, \u201cThat\u2019s so messed up. Jeez, if someone\u2014\u201d Remember, listen, watch how I say this, \u201cIf someone picked up my paper and ripped it, that would be awful.\u201d He said, \u201cIt was. It\u2019s so messed up that she did it.\u201d I said, \u201cYes, I can\u2019t imagine what you\u2019re experiencing are now or what you\u2019re going through. So what did I you do? Because I know personally if I put effort into something and someone ripped it up, and I felt foolish, I would certainly feel some sort of way.\u201d\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

He said, \u201cWell, I might have said something like, \u2018Lucky I take medicine and stuff like that.\u2019 It\u2019s just something like that.\u201d I said, \u201cWait a minute, so did you tell her that she\u2019s lucky you take medicine because of what you\u2019ll do, like alluding to you could hurt her then?\u201d\u00a0 He was like, \u201cSomething like that.\u201d\u00a0 I said, \u201cSomething like that, or is that what you said?\u201d He goes, \u201cYes, that\u2019s what I said.\u201d I said, \u201cOK, OK. You\u2019re angry. You were angry.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Yielding is about push-pull philosophy. Aikido\u2019s about if I push you, instead of you pushing me back, you would pull me and then I\u2019d go flying. Or if I try to pull you, instead of resisting, you\u2019d push me and I\u2019d go\u2014so you\u2019re going to watch this flow as we\u2019re talking.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

I said to him, \u201cOK, so let me ask you a question. You\u2019re not a father, are you?\u201d He said, \u201cOh yes, I have two kids.\u201d I said, \u201cYou don\u2019t have girls, do you?\u201d He said, \u201cOh yes, I\u2019ve got two girls.\u201d I said, \u201cOh, my man, I have a daughter and she\u2019s my life. I love my little girl more than anything in this world.\u201d He said, \u201cOh man, me too.\u201d I said, \u201cI have a question for you. If somebody came up to one of your little girls and said, \u2018Man, you\u2019re lucky I take meds,<\/span>
\n<\/span>or else,\u2019 and it was a man no less, that was a lot bigger than they are, what would you do?\u201d He said, \u201cMe and that guy got a problem.\u201d I said, \u201cYou understand where I\u2019m going?\u201d He said, \u201cI see where you\u2019re going, doc.\u201d I said, \u201cListen, in your intentions, you might very well have not intended to mean what you said, but people see your actions, not your intentions, and that teacher, she didn\u2019t know whether you were going to or not going to\u2014all she could go on is the actual threat.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

By this time, this guy\u2019s ridiculously calm. He\u2019s shaking his head like, \u201cYes, you\u2019re right. Great.\u201d I said, \u201cI have a question,\u201d because when I first got there it was like, \u201cI\u2019m not supposed to be down here. This is messed up.\u201d I said, \u201cDo you think you\u2019re where you\u2019re supposed to be right now?\u201d He goes, \u201cYes, I should be here for this.\u201d I said, \u201cDo you see what I\u2019m getting at right now?\u201d He said, \u201cI do.\u201d I said, \u201cAt the end of the day, you could get through this situation and you could say the old things you used to say, maybe try to get out of it, fight a case, this and that. All I\u2019m asking you to do, for your own growth, is look at it. Is this, was this the best reflection of you? And if it wasn\u2019t, can you really be ready to take feedback? Because that\u2019s what growth is about,\u201d he said, \u201cMan, doc, I definitely want to show I have growth.\u201d I said, \u201cIt sounds like you\u2019ve got a good answer for you.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Wow. Very masterful. That was so masterful.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

CC: <\/b>I like that you used that word, and first of all, thank you a lot because I believe that we master what we practice, and I\u2019ve been practicing joining with people. Now when I join with them and try to see from their eyes, I\u2019m thinking I do it instantly. A lot of times when I train officers or corrections officers, they\u2019ll say, \u201cWell I don\u2019t have time to go into all\u2014\u201d I say, \u201cListen. It takes no more time. It\u2019s actually faster, because the faster I see things from someone else\u2019s perspective, when we\u2019re angry we want to be heard, we want to be understood, or at least people trying to understand us. When you can create the space for someone to feel understood, what they do is they move from the emotional center, their limbic system in the center of their brain, and they move to the frontal cortex, the higher-level thinking and decision-making area.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I\u2019m going to read a quote from <\/span>Walking Through Anger <\/span><\/i>that describes what you\u2019re talking about here. Here\u2019s the quote. \u201cPeople don\u2019t calm down because you tell them to, they calm down because you\u2019ve given them the opportunity to express what was in their limbic system. They calm down because you\u2019ve validated them enough to help drain the limbic system, which allows them to move from their emotional center to their higher-level thinking center.\u201d Explain this idea of draining the limbic system and how the actions of Yield Theory do that.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

CC: <\/b>Yes. I love this. As you\u2019ll see with <\/span>Walking Through Anger<\/span><\/i>, I definitely teach in parables, I use tons of analogies, metaphors. One day I was trying to really think in a really simple way\u2014and trust me, I love to study neurology, but I know neurologists out there could be cringing any time someone tries to simplify it too much because the brain is so complex. But when we think about the limbic system, which involves areas of the brain that are involved with emotions, even things like the hypothalamus, like when you\u2019re hungry, when you\u2019re overly hungry, tired, overheated, this is in this center. This is in your emotional center.<\/span><\/p>\n

Well, if we were to look at the brain and we do a brain imaging, there are areas of the brain\u2014now the whole brain is always active, but there are areas that are more active at times. So if someone is highly emotional, there are areas in the limbic system that the going to be more lighted up than the frontal cortex, the higher-level thinking. What I said with drain the limbic system, this is just a metaphor\u2014so I don\u2019t want people thinking I\u2019m out there saying there\u2019s water in the brain, but here\u2019s my metaphor. Imagine that the limbic system was filled up with water and that water represented the anger, the emotion. Let\u2019s say you had a drain there, and so you turn on the nozzle and the water starts to leak out, but then you just hurry up and turn it right back off, so you just let a tiny bit if that water out. Well, there\u2019s still a whole lot of energy right<\/span>
\n<\/span>there in that limbic system.<\/span><\/p>\n

But when I say drain the limbic system, what I mean is you open up that valve until all the water comes out, and once the water\u2019s out of that area\u2014and again, I\u2019m not saying there\u2019s water on the brain for real\u2014now it can go to the other areas where it\u2019s needed, such as your frontal cortex. But we can\u2019t simultaneously be calm and angry; we\u2019re going to be either in<\/span>
\n<\/span>a spot where we\u2019re making good decisions or more emotional. So I try to help people drain that limbic system, so now they\u2019re ready, they\u2019re more prepared.<\/span><\/p>\n

Honestly, Tami, it\u2019s one of the reasons why when I talk about parenting, I say I literally have never yelled at or spanked my daughter ever. She\u2019s 14, she\u2019s the most beautiful, incredible human being I\u2019ve ever met, but one of the reasons why I say not to yell is if we\u2019re trying to teach children, and we know they learn in the front part of their brain, then yelling at them is going to activate a part of their brain that we don\u2019t want to be listening. In other words, parents will come to me all the time in therapy and say, \u201cWell I screamed at them 100 times, they still don\u2019t listen,\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cWell, maybe the method you\u2019re using to get this message across is not working.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Yes, so then how so you engage in a disciplinary when it\u2019s needed?<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

CC: <\/b>Definitely. Discipline, absolutely essential. Absolutely essential. You know we live in this world where enantiodromia is just in the foreground: we go from one extreme to the other. So people have a tendency to think well if you don\u2019t yell and scream and hit, then you must not discipline them, and that\u2019s not even remotely true.<\/span><\/p>\n

My four Cs that drive this are choices, consequences, consistency, and compassion. In other words, there\u2019s a choice, we all have a choice, so if we\u2019re talking about this with parenting, your children always have a choice. Sometimes parents say, \u201cNo they don\u2019t, they have to listen to me.\u201d Nah, they still have a choice. Now, there\u2019s a consequence if they don\u2019t listen. If that\u2019s what you\u2019re getting at, absolutely. There\u2019s a consequence, but there\u2019s a consequence either way. Whatever choice they make, there\u2019s a consequence, and if you\u2019re enforcing the rules, whether you\u2019re a guard, whether you\u2019re an officer, whether you\u2019re a parent, then you\u2019re going to want to be consistent. If you say something, you\u2019re going to want to follow through because you\u2019re teaching people how to treat you.<\/span><\/p>\n

Then what I emphasize the most is compassion. In other words, you can do all of that with compassion. If I recognize, and I\u2019ve made this the most important thing in my life to do, that every interaction with my daughter, I\u2019m teaching, my job is to teach. Children aren\u2019t born into this world knowing everything, our job is to teach them and guide them, and if they mess<\/span>
\n<\/span>up, if they don\u2019t know, then we want to guide them. I just think time and again, what\u2019s the most effective way to teach? Is it screaming and yelling, or is it shining light and helping them be internally motivated to learn it?<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Again, very masterful. You have a great knack, Christian, on simplifying things that can seem quite confounding.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

CC: <\/b>Again, that\u2019s one of the biggest compliments, because I really want to share this with you. When I was young, my parents pushed me academically. I was blessed to have a really high IQ and a lot of expectations come with that, and my parents pushed me to read a lot, which I love and I\u2019m so grateful for. I\u2019m so thankful for the parents I have. But I remember the first time I encountered G.W.F. Hegel, he\u2019s this German philosopher who writes in such a convoluted way<\/span>
\n<\/span>that by the time you\u2019re done with the first paragraph, you think you\u2019ve spun around in your chair 20 times because you\u2019re so dizzy.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

I thought to myself when I read Hegel when I was young, I said, \u201cYou know what? When I get older, I\u2019m never going to make things complicated for people. I\u2019m going to make things so that I can teach them anyone,\u201d and I truly believe that. If I can\u2019t share this with a five-year-old, then I don\u2019t know it well enough. I own the responsibility for that.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Just to keep going here, I think you have a way of explaining it that makes it really easy to understand, but in my own experience, it\u2019s not easy to do. I\u2019m going to have to come clean and be a little confessional here for a moment, which is, my wife of 18 years, we have a beautiful marriage, she\u2019s a very emotional person, and I\u2019m, I would say, in general, maybe more of a thinking type.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

When she gets extremely emotional about something, what she wants more than anything is for me to follow some type of Yield Method. She wants me to merge with her and feel what she\u2019s feeling. And it\u2019s the last thing I want to do! I think, \u201cOh my God, she is so freaked out. She\u2019s crazy right now. I\u2019m not merging with that, no way.\u201d So I would like more help in understanding how to do that because even though it sounds easy, take her perspective, blah blah blah, I am scared of the intensity of what she\u2019s feeling.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

CC: <\/b>Well, it\u2019s actually more intense when you\u2019re resisting. You just think of anxiety and how resistance impacts anxiety. But let me say it like this: so in your cartoon world you\u2019re saying, she shouldn\u2019t be so emotional right now. She shouldn\u2019t have been that intense about that issue. That\u2019s your cartoon world. The real world is, she is doing that. And again, as long as you\u2019re trying to force her into your cartoon world, now you\u2019re starting to butt heads with her. But if you can just genuinely meet her where she is and say, \u201cYou know what? This is, for whatever reason, causing this,\u201d what you\u2019ll find is, I believe, she will be like, \u201cMy goodness, this is so much\u2014\u201d Now she doesn\u2019t have a need to go that intense.<\/span><\/p>\n

See, a really powerful lesson from family therapy is this, we\u2014and systems theory\u2014we play a role in every interaction that we have. So every time you and your wife have a disagreement or you\u2019re in that type of situation, you are playing a role.<\/span><\/p>\n

Even if you come home and she\u2019s in that spot, and you just walked in the door, you still play a role because you two have a history, you know that there are ways she might respond to things, she knows there are ways you might respond to things.<\/span><\/p>\n

Once we realize, instead of trying to make it linear, as through it\u2019s just her, it\u2019s just whatever happened in her life and her, and you realize it\u2019s circular causality, all of these things merge, now when you go and you go, \u201cWait a minute, there\u2019s something I\u2019m doing to not make her feel comfortable enough and that she feels like she has to go to such an extreme to<\/span>
\n<\/span>have me see that she\u2019s in emotional pain right now.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Because that\u2019s one of the reasons why people respond so intensely, is they\u2019re in pain, and look, if I cut my arm, you can see how big the cut is. You can imagine I\u2019m in pain, but when it\u2019s anxiety, depression, fear, how big is that? Nobody knows, so you express it how best you can. If you don\u2019t feel like you\u2019re being heard, many times people express it in really intense ways saying, \u201cPlease, look. Notice this pain.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

What I love about what I do is I\u2019m easy to find, so if what I share with people doesn\u2019t work, believe me, the world will let me know in a hurry, but what I would invite you to do is next time that she\u2019s struggling in that way, really look at it as she\u2019s struggling in that way, she doesn\u2019t have to respond the way your brain would respond to it. She doesn\u2019t have to respond the way your experiences would teach you to respond to it, she just has to respond the way she is.<\/span><\/p>\n

Your job is to connect with her in that moment, try to circumvent that fight or flight, and realize being there with her, although it\u2019s harder for you, remember being tough isn\u2019t the easy thing, it\u2019s taking the more challenging road, but the reward lies at the end of that too. If you\u2019re able to discipline yourself to say \u201cNo, she doesn\u2019t have to come to my cartoon world, let me go meet her where she is,\u201d what you\u2019ll find is a radical shift in her feeling safe, and my guess is a less of a desire to say things so intensely because she\u2019ll more likely feel heard.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now when it comes to these three steps of Yield Theory\u2014listen, validate, explore options\u2014let\u2019s go into them a little bit. When it comes to listening, I think a lot of people think \u201cOh, I know how to listen,\u201d but in your book, <\/span>Walking Through Anger<\/span><\/i>, you really break it down and you talk about listening not just to the verbal dimension of what\u2019s happening, but how you really presence listening in a multidimensional way. Share some about that, the deeper dimensions of listening to<\/span>
\n<\/span>someone.<\/span><\/p>\n


\n<\/span>CC: <\/b>Yes, yes, I will. The listen, validate, and explore options, I just want to say at the onset, it\u2019s so easy to be skeptical of others. It\u2019s so easy for us to go, \u201cOh\u2014\u201d someone presents something, \u201cThat\u2019s not\u2026\u201d We can pick it apart, but can we really be skeptical of ourselves, of our own egos?<\/span><\/p>\n

When I was trying to think about what\u2019s the essence of Yield Theory, I was like, what action is it? I sit in the chair and talk to people or I stand up and talk to people, what do I do? These were the three things I really realized, these are the actions: listen, validate and explore options. I was speaking one time to 500 mental health specialists, and a woman came up to me at<\/span>
\n<\/span>the break and she was real condescending, and she looked at me and she goes, \u201cThat\u2019s your big theory, three things?\u201d I said, \u201cYes. But if you think about it, all Bruce Lee ever did was move, block, and hit. He did pretty well for himself.\u201d We might know\u2014like you say, we might know the word listen and say, \u201cOh, I know how to listen,\u201d but I think it\u2019s how you listen,<\/span>
\n<\/span>how you validate, and how you explore options.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

To go into listening more the way I visualize it, think of a box\u2014think of a big box, maybe the size of a room. If you\u2019re standing on one side of that box, you can only see one, maybe two sides of that box. If you could visualize that what people are saying to you, they\u2019re talking to you from another side of the box. Let me go further and say imagine that this box, on<\/span>
\n<\/span>each side of the box there are ever-changing images, completely changing constantly, so even if you go around and try to see that person\u2019s side, there\u2019s going to be other stuff on another side that you don\u2019t see.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

If we can realize every time we listen to people, we are only seeing one or two sides of the box and there is always more, then we move from listening with ego, like \u201cI know what they\u2019re going to say, I know what this is all about,\u201d and then we start to listen from essence and use what I call, even in the book, \u201chumble curiosity,\u201d like teach me about your side of the box.<\/span><\/p>\n

But now we have to do this, Tami, not we have to listen, and we have to realize there\u2019s no way we can ever fully see another person\u2019s side of the box. I, of course, use the box as a reference to the human psyche. We can never see fully\u2014we can only see our own fully. If you can approach people and begin to listen to them as though they\u2019re on another side of the box, the only way to understand what\u2019s happening and that side is to actually listen to them and not think \u201cWell, I\u2019ve been to all sides of the box, I know it all.\u201d Well, you can\u2019t know it all because as soon as you\u2019re on one side, you\u2019re automatically not seeing what\u2019s going on on the other side.<\/span>
\n<\/span>This puts people in a vulnerable position if their ego says, \u201cNo. I want to prove to people that I have those experiences. I know what you\u2019re going through. Been there, done that.\u201d Those are all very invalidating statements, like you have their answers, you have not only your experiences, but their experiences too, and that position of arrogance really adds to conflict, it doesn\u2019t lessen it. I say listen with humility and say imagine someone\u2019s telling you something and the only way for you to know it is to truly listen. Does that resonate?<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Yes. It sounds though what you\u2019re saying, I want to check this one part out, is that even if you listen really, really carefully, you may be able to see what they\u2019re seeing, feel what they\u2019re feeling to some high level of approximation, but it will never be 100 percent because it\u2019s changing and because it\u2019s happening to them, and that that\u2019s part of the deep humility, that you\u2019ll never fully know it. Is that correct?<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

CC: <\/b>Exactly. That\u2019s it 100 percent. I don\u2019t say, \u201cWell I understand.\u201d I say, \u201cI understand what you\u2019re explaining to me.\u201d Because I understand my own sense of the word anxiety, I know my own experience of anxiety, but I would never say to someone who\u2019s having a panic attack, \u201cI know what you\u2019re going through,\u201d because I don\u2019t know what they\u2019re going through. I know my own experience of experiencing panic attacks, I don\u2019t know that person\u2019s experience. That, again, comes back to that humility of setting our ego aside, trying to show others what we know, and as I said, truly being there for them.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>You know, it\u2019s interesting, when I was thinking about these deeper dimensions of listening, I was thinking about different things you reference in <\/span>Walking Through Anger<\/span><\/i>, like tone of voice is important, so people know that you\u2019re listening, your body language is important, eye contact. But what\u2019s interesting is those are all behavioral things. I could do all those things right and miss the point you\u2019re making right here, which is the humility to not ever presume I have it 100<\/span>
\n<\/span>percent correct. That\u2019s very powerful.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

CC: <\/b>Thank you, and it\u2019s beyond validating to hear you articulate it that accurately. That\u2019s exactly what I had hoped to share is exactly that. Well, our ego loves to convince us we have the answers. Asymmetric insight is the psychological concept that we believe we\u2019re really deep and mysterious, but other people, especially those who disagree with us, are shallow and predictable.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Right.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

CC: <\/b>In other words, we believe when people disagree with us that we see all sides of the box, but they just don\u2019t see our side. Obviously if they saw our side, obviously they would believe what we believe.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Right.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

CC: <\/b>But it\u2019s such a position of arrogance to think that. The truth is enlightenment comes from anyone, anywhere, at any time, and sometimes that means even in the depth of someone who you perceive to be completely different from the way you\u2019re churning through life, that person also holds that divine space in them as well.<\/span>
\n<\/span>
\n<\/span>TS: <\/b>Now in these three steps, which just for the record, I don\u2019t think that this is like \u201cAh, that\u2019s really simplistic.\u201d Not at all, I think it\u2019s incredibly deep to become masterful, one thing I learned from your work about the second step of validation, you write, \u201cThe primary purpose of validation is connection.\u201d I thought that was really powerful because sometimes I think<\/span>
\n<\/span>when I\u2019m saying things back to people, my primary purpose is to convince them I heard what they said so that we could please move on. I\u2019m not really interested in validating them, I just want them to say, \u201cI heard what you said. Can we please move on to the part I like, which is fixing the problem?\u201d So that\u2019s interesting that that\u2019s really the goal of validation, is to connect with someone.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

CC: <\/b>It really is. That\u2019s the essence of what we\u2019re about. I talk a little bit about it in the book, but there was a great theory, hypothesis for why Neanderthals might have died out while Homo Sapiens lived on. They discovered that even though Neanderthals had bigger brains, that because they were bigger, physically bigger, and they really lived in these isolated, mountaintop ranges, they needed to have better eyesight, they were physically\u2014they had a bigger back of their brain area for the eyesight coordination, and a smaller part of their brain devoted to social interaction.<\/span><\/p>\n

The theory, the hypothesis was maybe they died out because\u2014and most of the burial grounds are smaller groups, so maybe they died out because maybe we realized just how much we need each other, whereas that might not have been such a priority for them. This human<\/span>
\n<\/span>connection, this might be deeply biological, that we want to connect with others.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Help our listeners understand some of the right ways and maybe the not as skillful ways\u2014we could say skillful, not as skillful ways\u2014of validating someone, like when you\u2019re having a conflict or in any situation when you\u2019re trying to meet them.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

CC: <\/b>I think the wrong way is to\u2014and you said it in such a lighthearted way, because I love that you said it perfectly. If your real goal is to listen, is to say, \u201cOK, I\u2019m going to validate you to shut you up right now basically,\u201d that\u2019s not the right way to do it. If you\u2019re validating saying, \u201cLet me see. You\u2019re seeing something I\u2019m not seeing.\u201d You see, I look at it that way, if someone disagrees with me, and maybe I feel strongly about a situation and someone disagrees, my brain jumps to, what is it that they\u2019re seeing that I\u2019m not seeing? Because it\u2019s something. I really want to listen and validate, and make sure I\u2019m hearing accurately what they\u2019re saying.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Validation, it\u2019s acknowledgement of what others are going through. So yes, it definitely is that, of what they\u2019re saying, you\u2019re acknowledging that you\u2019re seeing it, but gosh, does it connect you.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Of course many people, and I\u2019m one of them, are concerned about the growing divisiveness that many of us are experiencing in American culture, whether it\u2019s political divisiveness or divisiveness around various issues. How do you think Yield Theory and the work that you do could apply to people having discourse around differences of opinion? How would it change discourse?<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

CC: <\/b>Well yes, I honestly believe it\u2019s the key. At least it\u2019s the key that resonates with me, that if we really listen to other people that we ardently disagree with and say, \u201cYou know what? You\u2019re seeing something I\u2019m not seeing. Teach me.\u201d But we don\u2019t. We only listen to what we want to hear, we use confirmation bias\u2014so this is maybe a wrong way to listen with validation, when you\u2019re using confirmation bias, in other words you\u2019re looking to hear what I want to hear.<\/span><\/p>\n

Of course, we\u2019re human beings, we operate on a continuum. When it comes to emotions, opinions, thoughts, all that stuff, it\u2019s a continuum, so when you disagree with others and there\u2019s discourse, it\u2019s saying, \u201cWell, you need to see my side of the box,\u201d not, \u201cLet me honestly see your side.\u201d Not, \u201cLet me see your side so I can prove to you your experience is wrong,\u201d but, \u201cLet me see your side.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

There\u2019s a reason one thing led to another in the story of everyone\u2019s lives, and when we can lead with compassion and humble, genuine curiosity, I think that would radically shift discourse in America and in the world.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now I know you also\u2014this is, maybe I don\u2019t understand enough about how Yield Theory can be applied in a lot of different situations, because I know you also work with athletes, and you help top athletic performers. How does Yield Theory work in a situation like that?<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

CC: <\/b>Well I\u2019ll do what I did with a professional basketball team the other day. I talked to them about how ego can interfere with team functioning. If my ego is, \u201cThis is about me and what I can do,\u201d I\u2019m not going to operate, we\u2019re not going to operate as a team as effectively as if we can learn to set our egos aside and really operate as one.<\/span><\/p>\n

When it comes to sports, that\u2019s a real powerful piece, because a huge part of Yield Theory, one of the fundamental components is conscious education. Conscious education is about teaching. I know for me it was never enough just to listen and validate, it\u2019s let\u2019s explore options. Where can we go from here? What can you learn? What insight can you get from this moment forward that could really shift what you\u2019re experiencing?<\/span><\/p>\n

I do the same thing with athletes. Athletes are human beings. A huge part of sport psychology is helping people clear away mental clutter, and so yielding with them, helping them feel not judged and safe enough to say what\u2019s going on, that\u2019s a huge part of it. But it\u2019s also teaching them new things.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Can you give me an example from the world of athletics?<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

CC: <\/b>Yes. OK, so let\u2019s say that someone\u2019s in a, I\u2019ll just basketball because I was with them the other day, let\u2019s say someone\u2019s angry at a ref for not making the call that he thought should have been made.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Sure.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

CC: <\/b>He\u2019s living in his cartoon world in that moment, like, \u201cYou should have called that foul and you didn\u2019t.\u201d Now, what do we know about a fast-paced moving game? It\u2019s already moving down the court, so the more you\u2019re standing there arguing, not only are you not involved in the present moment and the play that\u2019s happening, but you\u2019re also in danger of getting fouls that\u2019ll hurt not only you, but your team. All because you\u2019re trying to live in a cartoon world of what should<\/span>
\n<\/span>have happened rather than saying, \u201cThis did happen, now what\u2019s the best, most effective way to communicate this to the ref so that should it come up again in the future, it\u2019ll be helpful to me and my team?\u201d But you have to be able to control that emotion, have that self-discipline.<\/span><\/p>\n

I tell lots of samurai stories for the guys, and the men and women\u2014with the athletes, I tell lots of the samurai stories because the samurai were extremely self-disciplined in their art. It\u2019s learning how to learn about yourself. What gets in the way of you really living at one with the essence of who you are? Because the state of flow doesn\u2019t involve thoughts, the state of flow, it involves being present. In any performance we want to be; we don\u2019t want to be sitting there thinking about the performance, we want to be doing it.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Can you tell me a samurai story?<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

CC: <\/b>Yes. There was a samurai who was\u2014or let me tell you this one. There was a young man who was in a monastery and he was being picked on. He was being picked on by the other people in the monastery. He got so upset, so he goes and he says to the master, he says, \u201cI\u2019m being picked on by the other people in this monastery. I thought they were all holy and they weren\u2019t supposed to do this kind of stuff?\u201d Well the master sat there in silence, so he said, \u201cI don\u2019t think you heard me. I\u2019m telling you they\u2019re picking on me. They\u2019re saying I\u2019m this, they\u2019re saying I\u2019m that, they\u2019re supposed to be holy.\u201d\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

The master sat there in silence. Now this young monk started thinking well, \u201cOh, so you\u2019re taking their side? Oh, I see how it is. You\u2019re supposed to be so holy, but now you\u2019re taking their side? Who do you think you are?\u201d So the master says, \u201cGive me your legs.\u201d The monk says, \u201cWhat? What are you talking about? I\u2019m trying to tell you they\u2019re picking on me.\u201d The master says, \u201cCut off your legs and give them to me now.\u201d The monk says, \u201cNo, no!\u201d The<\/span>
\n<\/span>master says, \u201cWhy is it that you defend your body so fiercely, but give away your mind so easily?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

I realize I told you a Zen monk story and not a samurai story, but I love this concept of \u201cGive me your legs,\u201d so I talk about this with athletes all the time. In what ways do you give away your legs? In what ways do you give away your mind? It\u2019s a wonderful starting point, but then we can come back to that time and again\u2014how are you giving away your legs?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

I was going to say, let\u2019s think about that in terms of the discourse, when we talk about things. How often do we give away our power in two seconds if someone disagrees with our thoughts or our beliefs or our politics or our religion? The second something happens, we\u2019re giving away our legs. We\u2019re saying, \u201cOh, I can\u2019t believe you would see things differently from<\/span>
\n<\/span>me.\u201d I think I would much prefer to take the more humble path of saying, \u201cObviously you\u2019ve had different life experiences that led you to believe in what you believe, and I\u2019d love to learn about it.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

What\u2019s interesting is\u2014and you\u2019re not doing it just to get others to listen to you, but the byproduct is, people do end up then listening because they\u2019re like, \u201cOK, you listened, you genuinely listened,\u201d and they feel heard, now they\u2019re less likely to be defensive and more likely to say, \u201cTell me your perspective.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now it\u2019s interesting, this point you\u2019ve made a couple of times about how we get so invested in our \u201ccartoon world,\u201d you call it. The world that we think should be happening versus what\u2019s actually happening. You know what occurred to me is probably most people are living in a cartoon world all day long about what we think this, that, or the other thing.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

CC: <\/b>Yes. Yes, I really believe. About a month ago, this came out of meditation. I was traveling, I called my wife, I said, \u201cYou know what? I honestly think, you know how I try to simplify stuff all the time? I really think it all comes down to cartoon world.\u201d Because think about it. If you really think this shouldn\u2019t have happened\u2014every \u201cshould\u201d that comes in your mind, until you start to practice it enough and then you realize, \u201cThis is. This is what\u2019s happening, this person is<\/span>
\n<\/span>responding this way right now.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

And so again, people will say cognitively, \u201cOh, meet people where they are. That makes sense,\u201d but can you actually do it? Not in your cartoon world, but meet them where they actually are? Because once you can do that, it radically shifts the way you interact.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>OK, there\u2019s one other area I want to talk to you about, Christian, which is your book, <\/span>Walking Through Anger: A New Design for Confronting Conflict in an Emotionally Charged World<\/span><\/i>, deals mostly with how to help other people when they\u2019re super angry about something. What do you do? What approach do you take if you\u2019re a counselor or if you\u2019re working in the helping professions, or just with people in your life?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

But I\u2019m curious, let\u2019s say someone\u2019s listening right now and they feel angry about something that\u2019s happening in the world. Maybe it\u2019s the environmental crisis we\u2019re in, they\u2019re angry about it. In their cartoon world, this should not be happening. They might even be offended that we\u2019re saying, \u201cIn their cartoon world.\u201d It\u2019s the world where the Earth is respected and loved and cared for, and they\u2019re angry about this. How can you help that person walk through their anger?<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

CC: <\/b>Well, I would say this: oftentimes we have a shared cartoon world. I might say, for instance, I see people who do the most horrific things to others, so for me, the pain that humans cause each other, that probably trumps the physical violence that occurs all over. In my cartoon world I would tend to say, \u201cThat shouldn\u2019t be happening.\u201d The real world is, it is happening, and so if I go in the cartoon world and say, \u201cIt shouldn\u2019t be happening,\u201d what am I really doing? Am I jumping up on a pedestal, a soapbox, and saying, \u201cHey, you shouldn\u2019t be being violent right now. You shouldn\u2019t be torturing and hurting each other. You shouldn\u2019t\u201d? OK, great. It\u2019s not actually making a difference. Or do I say, \u201cYou know what? The real world is, people do hurt each other. They cause each other a lot of pain. And if I really want to help them change that,<\/span>
\n<\/span>I\u2019ve got to find out where they are and go meet them there.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

If you\u2019re standing on top of a mountain, I use this analogy in the book, and you scream, so you climb all the way to the top of a mountain, and people in the bottom of the mountain, they\u2019re lost, they can\u2019t find their way, you can stand there and scream all day at them, \u201cYou should be up here, you should see what I see. You should be in this perspective. You should<\/span>
\n<\/span>have gone the way I went.\u201d Great. Guess what? You could say the best things in the world, but if they\u2019re at the bottom of the mountain, they can\u2019t even hear you. You have to have the discipline to leave where you are and go meet them where they are.<\/span><\/p>\n

I know people, when I say that, they will say, \u201cWell, I shouldn\u2019t have to go meet them there, they should meet me halfway.\u201d That\u2019s cartoon world. The reality is, you\u2019re the one who can control you, and if these are the people you\u2019re encountering, your job is to meet them where they are and see the world from their perspective.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Walking through Anger <\/span><\/i>does help you handle others, but honestly, I used Yield Theory to put this book out there in the universe. I thought, what\u2019s the easiest way for people to truly learn about what\u2019s going on with them? Well people, our egos are fragile, and we like to say what other people can fix. When you read these concepts, you say, \u201cOh yes, other people do this, other people do this. Other people\u2014well, I do this, I do this. Wait a minute, I think this relates to me.\u201d The two kinds of people thing becomes really real for you because you realize you know what? When you really learn that people, they have an entire world that you don\u2019t see, that impacts how you handle that. When you realize not just teaching others that every emotional experience is going to have a beginning, middle, and end, but now you start to be mindful of that in your own experience of an intense emotion. Now you don\u2019t have to be as reactive.<\/span><\/p>\n

Actions can\u2019t be undone; the emotions are going to come and go, but actions can\u2019t be undone. So I believe that people will read this book thinking \u201cOh yes, I can help others with this,\u201d the byproduct is going to be, without their ego recognizing it, they\u2019re going to be learning about themselves intensely.<\/span><\/p>\n

There are parts that I just straight up teach that are things that many people don\u2019t know\u2014and of course hindsight bias, as soon as we hear them and it\u2019s simple, we go, \u201cOh, I knew that,\u201d but a minute prior we weren\u2019t living by that or knowing that.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>All right, Christian, to conclude, our program here is called <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>, and part of it is I\u2019m always curious to know what someone\u2019s growing edge is, even in relationship to the work that they teach. When it comes to Yield Theory and living it in all aspects of your life, what would you say is your edge?<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

CC: <\/b>I would say that I recognize\u2014I\u2019d like to share this, as my daughter shared with me recently the best lesson I ever taught her, and I think I\u2019m mindful of this a lot. If I were to give you a bucket and say, \u201cWhat do you want to put in that bucket?\u201d I ask you, \u201cWhat would you put in there?\u201d Let, me ask you, Tami, what would you put in the bucket if I gave you a bucket?<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I could put anything in it?<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

CC: <\/b>Anything you want.<\/span>
\n<\/span>
\n<\/span>TS: <\/b>Oh, I\u2019d put like, beautiful stones, diamonds and crystals, and yes, maybe some gold.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

CC: <\/b>Wonderful.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

CC: <\/b>Beautiful. Wonderful. OK, so you would have beautiful stones in your bucket then right?<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

CC: <\/b>What you put in your bucket will be in your bucket. Well the same is true with your mind. If you fill your mind with anger and violence, if you fill your mind with the things that anger you, you\u2019re going to be angry. But if you fill your mind with peace, look, we master what we practice, if you fill your mind with peace, you\u2019re much more likely to have peace.<\/span><\/p>\n

I think my edge is my self-talk, understanding\u2014you know, I meditate, I do things like I constantly use the phrase \u201clovingkindness\u201d in my internal dialogue when there\u2019s chaos, when I encounter chaos, when I encounter things that I don\u2019t want to be in my psyche, I\u2019m proactive about the self-talk that I have.<\/span><\/p>\n

And I recognize, I think, probably the biggest strength that I have is I really don\u2019t judge people. I really understand that I don\u2019t know what other people the going through, there\u2019s always something more. There\u2019s more to the story. It helps me set my ego aside faster, and I think that\u2019s very disarming for people to be around. I think that\u2019s the edge, but it doesn\u2019t happen because I\u2019m secretly saying, \u201cOh, I\u2019m being nice, but I really do believe I have the answers,\u201d I\u2019m really thinking I don\u2019t know. I\u2019m giving you the best I can in this moment, but I\u2019m open that in the next second I\u2019m going to learn something that\u2019s going to flip my perspective in its edge, and I\u2019m OK with that.<\/span><\/p>\n

I\u2019m curious, and I believe, especially when it comes to the discourse around anger and all these different things, that it become our arrogance that gets in the way. When we can be genuinely curious, like, \u201cTeach me. Teach me about your side. Teach me about it,\u201d I really do want to learn, so I\u2019m open to feedback when people see things about me, and I\u2019m really curious about other people and the human psyche.<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I\u2019ve been speaking with Dr. Christian Conte. He\u2019s the creator of Yield Theory and the author of the new book, <\/span>Walking Through Anger: A New Design for Confronting Conflict in an Emotionally Charged World<\/span><\/i>. The Yield Theory approach sounds simple, but it\u2019s really deep and really useful. I recommend it.<\/span><\/p>\n

If you\u2019d like to watch <\/span>Insights at the Edge <\/span><\/i>on video and participate in after-the-show Q&A conversations with featured presenters and have the chance to ask your questions, come join us on Sounds True One, a new membership community that features premium shows, live classes, and community events. Let\u2019s learn and grow together. Come join us at join.soundstrue.com. Sounds True: waking up the world.<\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"template":"","meta":{"_expiration-date-status":"","_expiration-date":0,"_expiration-date-type":"","_expiration-date-categories":[],"_expiration-date-options":[]},"class_list":["post-19810","transcript","type-transcript","status-publish","hentry"],"yoast_head":"\nHealing Conflict Listen Validate Then Explore Options...<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Healing Conflict Listen Validate Then Explore Options. Explore teachings on meditation and spir\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"noindex, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Healing Conflict Listen Validate Then Explore Options...\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Healing Conflict Listen Validate Then Explore Options. Explore teachings on meditation and spir\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/healing-conflict-listen-validate-then-explore-options\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Sounds True\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"58 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/healing-conflict-listen-validate-then-explore-options\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/healing-conflict-listen-validate-then-explore-options\/\",\"name\":\"Healing Conflict Listen Validate Then Explore Options...\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#website\"},\"datePublished\":\"2022-11-22T23:08:52+00:00\",\"description\":\"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Healing Conflict Listen Validate Then Explore Options. Explore teachings on meditation and spir\",\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/healing-conflict-listen-validate-then-explore-options\/#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/healing-conflict-listen-validate-then-explore-options\/\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/healing-conflict-listen-validate-then-explore-options\/#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"Transcripts\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":3,\"name\":\"Healing Conflict: Listen, Validate, Then Explore Options\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/\",\"name\":\"Sounds True\",\"description\":\"\",\"publisher\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#organization\"},\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":{\"@type\":\"PropertyValueSpecification\",\"valueRequired\":true,\"valueName\":\"search_term_string\"}}],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"Organization\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#organization\",\"name\":\"Sounds True\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/\",\"logo\":{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#\/schema\/logo\/image\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/08\/soundstrue-logo-footer-color.png\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/08\/soundstrue-logo-footer-color.png\",\"width\":1035,\"height\":235,\"caption\":\"Sounds True\"},\"image\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#\/schema\/logo\/image\/\"}}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Healing Conflict Listen Validate Then Explore Options...","description":"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Healing Conflict Listen Validate Then Explore Options. Explore teachings on meditation and spir","robots":{"index":"noindex","follow":"follow","max-snippet":"max-snippet:-1","max-image-preview":"max-image-preview:large","max-video-preview":"max-video-preview:-1"},"og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"Healing Conflict Listen Validate Then Explore Options...","og_description":"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Healing Conflict Listen Validate Then Explore Options. Explore teachings on meditation and spir","og_url":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/healing-conflict-listen-validate-then-explore-options\/","og_site_name":"Sounds True","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_misc":{"Est. reading time":"58 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/healing-conflict-listen-validate-then-explore-options\/","url":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/healing-conflict-listen-validate-then-explore-options\/","name":"Healing Conflict Listen Validate Then Explore Options...","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#website"},"datePublished":"2022-11-22T23:08:52+00:00","description":"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Healing Conflict Listen Validate Then Explore Options. Explore teachings on meditation and spir","breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/healing-conflict-listen-validate-then-explore-options\/#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/healing-conflict-listen-validate-then-explore-options\/"]}]},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/healing-conflict-listen-validate-then-explore-options\/#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"Transcripts","item":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":3,"name":"Healing Conflict: Listen, Validate, Then Explore Options"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#website","url":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/","name":"Sounds True","description":"","publisher":{"@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#organization"},"potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":{"@type":"PropertyValueSpecification","valueRequired":true,"valueName":"search_term_string"}}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Organization","@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#organization","name":"Sounds True","url":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/","logo":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#\/schema\/logo\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/08\/soundstrue-logo-footer-color.png","contentUrl":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/08\/soundstrue-logo-footer-color.png","width":1035,"height":235,"caption":"Sounds True"},"image":{"@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#\/schema\/logo\/image\/"}}]}},"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/transcript\/19810","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/transcript"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/transcript"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=19810"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}