{"id":19843,"date":"2023-01-05T11:00:22","date_gmt":"2023-01-05T18:00:22","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?post_type=transcript&p=19843"},"modified":"2023-01-09T14:16:37","modified_gmt":"2023-01-09T21:16:37","slug":"learning-from-family-systems-theory","status":"publish","type":"transcript","link":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/learning-from-family-systems-theory\/","title":{"rendered":"Learning from Family Systems Theory"},"content":{"rendered":"
\"image_print\"Print Transcript<\/span><\/a><\/div>

Tami Simon:<\/b> Hello, friends. My name is Tami Simon, and I\u2019m the founder of Sounds True. And I want to welcome you to the Sounds True podcast, <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

I also want to take a moment to introduce you to Sounds True\u2019s new membership community and digital platform. It\u2019s called Sounds True One. Sounds True One features original premium transformational docuseries, community events, classes to start your day and relax in the evening, special weekly live shows including a video version of <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>, with an aftershow community question-and-answer session with featured guests. I hope you\u2019ll come join us, explore, come have fun with us, and connect with others. You can learn more at join.soundstrue.com.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

I also want to take a moment and introduce you to the Sounds True Foundation, our nonprofit that creates equitable access to transformational tools and teachings. You can learn more at SoundsTrueFoundation.org, and in advance, thank you for your support.<\/span><\/p>\n

In this episode of <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>, my guest is Elaine Carney Gibson. Elaine is a practicing psychotherapist of almost 50 years. She sees individuals, couples, and families, specializing in relationship therapy. She\u2019s taught graduate courses in marriage and family therapy for many years and is the director of the Marriage and Family Therapy Training Institute of The Link Counseling Center in Atlanta, Georgia. With Sounds True, Elaine Carney Gibson is the author of a new book. It\u2019s called <\/span>Your Family Revealed: A Guide to Decoding the Patterns, Stories, and Belief Systems in Your Family<\/span><\/i>.<\/span><\/p>\n

To say it the way it is, Elaine Carney Gibson is a master therapist. She has so much experience looking at families and seeing any presenting issue as a symptom of a greater system. Here we have the chance to learn some of the core principles of family [systems therapy] with Elaine Carney Gibson. Take a listen.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Elaine, you\u2019ve been a practicing psychotherapist for almost 50 years now. I\u2019d love to start by going back in time and having you share with our listeners a bit about how you first became a psychotherapist and decided to focus in the area of marriage and family therapy.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Elaine Carney Gibson:<\/b> Well, truthfully, I think that many of us who are therapists were kind of programmed to be therapists for our families, and I think that was true for me in many ways. I didn\u2019t know it at the time, of course, but I always found myself interested in family stories. I was one of those grandchildren that would jump on my bike, go to my grandmother\u2019s house, sit on her porch swing on her front porch, and ask her to tell me stories over and over again.<\/span><\/p>\n

So I somehow knew that her stories were my stories, even as a child. Because what she\u2019s bringing in terms of what she was\u2014her beliefs and her ways of behavior, her ways of relating, her eccentricities, whatever that may be, that somehow that was all impactful to me. So then I go along, and I actually was in the field of early childhood education, and I was teaching and had volunteered to be one of the first white teachers\u2014this was a time of desegregation in what had previously been an all-Black school\u2014and I really loved this experience. It was in Central Florida.<\/span><\/p>\n

The grandmothers\u2014I may have shared another time, but the families there, there were about 13 people in a household, $2,000 income a year\u2014the grandmothers took care of the children while any one of working age could work, in the fields generally. And the grandmothers would come and talk to me about the grandchildren and their concerns and what they saw going on. And I found it all interesting.<\/span><\/p>\n

So I was finishing up a master\u2019s degree in early childhood development and education, and they started a program at Georgia State University called Professional Counseling with basically community counseling, and I thought, \u201cCommunity counseling, yes, that makes sense to me.\u201d So when I went into that, it was just at the time where family systems theory was beginning to\u2014there were being things written about it and talked about, and I just happened to come to the field during that time and fell in love with the whole idea of the systems theory model and then integrating that with the humanistic model, which is the one I was being trained in at the university basically based on Carl Rogers\u2019s work, which I love.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so the two of them came together, and so I just feel like I came to\u2014it just evolved, the timing was right, and I fell in love with the subject and went to a center that worked with families. We were one of the first family therapy centers in the United States. We\u2019re still in existence, which is kind of unusual for a nonprofit that started that many years ago, 51 years ago now. That\u2019s how it happened.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> One of the things I feel from you, Elaine, is your deep love and appreciation of the family systems model. So for those of us who are relatively new to it, share with us some of the key concepts, the key discoveries that you love so much.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Elaine Carney Gibson:<\/b> Well, it really is\u2014I call it relationship therapy, because that\u2019s really what we\u2019re looking at. It looks at the family in terms of hierarchy, in terms of boundaries, how people communicate with one another, both verbally and nonverbally. It wants to look at what are the triangles in the family, because there\u2019s always triangles, and I say to people they\u2019re natural. It\u2019s not like triangles in a family are this bad thing. They just are, but they can become dysfunctional, if you can use that word. They may become dysfunctional if one or more of the individuals in the triangle is somehow hurt by it, and \u201churt\u201d may be again a strong word, but that somehow it\u2019s keeping them from thriving.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so then I want to encourage people to look at the triangles. If your child is involved and you\u2019re a parent, is there something that you could do differently that would be healthier, more productive for your child? So we\u2019re just really examining many different ways that the system itself operates and how that affects the individuals in the family.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> You have this very interesting quote, \u201cA healthy family system promotes the growth and development of the individuals involved. Thus, the healthy family system serves the individuals. In an unhealthy system, an individual serves the system instead.\u201d And I wonder\u2014this might be a way for us to begin to appreciate the family systems model, if you can explain that a bit. What would it mean for a healthy family system to serve individuals versus individuals serving the system?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Elaine Carney Gibson:<\/b> I think it\u2019s when the relationships in the family are operating in a way that allow the individuals to thrive, grow, be individuals, as they get to be adults to be more autonomous, or as they\u2019re growing to be more autonomous and have their own thoughts, their own feelings, be able to then to establish their own beliefs, and they\u2019re free to express that in the family, and they\u2019re not bad or wrong or somehow being disloyal to the family by being able to have their own thoughts and feelings that may be different from the family\u2019s.<\/span><\/p>\n

When the family is asking any of the individuals to be sacrificial to the point that they\u2019re losing self, that they can\u2019t have or are not allowed to have their own voice, and to have their wants and needs taken into consideration, then I think that the system in some way is not working.<\/span><\/p>\n

And of course when we\u2019re in relationship, we know we always make sacrifices. That\u2019s part of being in relationship. We\u2019re going to make sacrifices. But if we\u2019re being sacrificial\u2014and to me there\u2019s a difference in being sacrificial and making sacrifices. Making sacrifices is, more or less, a choice to be in the relationship. Being sacrificial is really putting your wants and needs aside, because you may feel like you have to survive in the situation so you don\u2019t feel like you have a choice, so that you are sacrificing your own wants and needs, your own sense of self. Your identity is more blended in with what the family says it is, rather than for you to feel like you have your own identity and sense of who you are in the world.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> If someone\u2019s asking themself a question right now, \u201cAm I making a necessary sacrifice within my family, or am I being sacrificial?,\u201d how would they sort that out?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Elaine Carney Gibson:<\/b> To me, it\u2019s a matter of sitting and feeling about it. If I can say, \u201cI want to do this,\u201d then there\u2019s where the difference is to me. An example I\u2019ve sometimes shared is I remember when\u2014and this isn\u2019t a family member, but could have been\u2014I had a neighbor who was in the hospital and I kept saying to myself, \u201cI should go, I should go, I should go.\u201d The big old \u201cshould\u201d word. And then finally I wasn\u2019t making time to go, and finally I said, \u201cWait a minute, yes, I probably should go, but I <\/span>want<\/span><\/i> to go. I want to be a good friend, so I want to go.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

So even though I had to disrupt quite a few things in my life to do that, it was important to me to do it. It becomes a choice. So I think when you can sit with it and you can say, \u201cOK, yes, that is a sacrifice. Not only am I willing to make it, but I choose to make it.\u201d So that has a different feeling to it, a different energy around it, than if it\u2019s like, \u201cOh, I should, I have to, I should, I have to.\u201d That\u2019s a different energy around it, and you can feel it in your body.<\/span><\/p>\n

And if you are sitting with someone and you\u2019re talking with them, you can see it, you can see their body sometimes almost just kind of collapse in on itself rather than it\u2019s like the choice \u201cI want to. I am willing and I want to, and it is the right thing to do, perhaps.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> So I think I\u2019m pushing on this point because I notice sometimes even just in an intimate relationship, there are things that I don\u2019t really want to do, but I feel like maybe it\u2019s just\u2014yes, I guess I would use the word \u201cshould.\u201d I should do it, and I don\u2019t really want to, but yet I don\u2019t think I\u2019m sacrificial. I think I\u2019m being a good partner. So it\u2019s something else. I\u2019m doing a good partner, but I\u2019m kind of going against my natural grain to do so.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Elaine Carney Gibson:<\/b> Yes, but you\u2019re choosing to be a good partner.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> Indeed, I am.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Elaine Carney Gibson:<\/b> And so that\u2019s the choice. So in that sense, you\u2019re making the choice.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> Right.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Elaine Carney Gibson:<\/b> And like I said, I think in relationships, any relationships, we make sacrifices, and we do things at times that we\u2019d rather not do. We don\u2019t even particularly want to do them, but the other person does. It\u2019s important to them, and we want to be a good partner, we want to be a good friend, we want to be a good sibling or child or parent or whatever it is. So we do those things. But instead of walking around with that idea, \u201cI don\u2019t want to, I don\u2019t want to, I don\u2019t want to,\u201d but I choose to because I choose to be a good partner.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> At the very beginning of <\/span>Your Family Revealed<\/span><\/i>, you introduce the metaphor of the labyrinth, that there\u2019s value for us to go back to the center of the labyrinth and look at where our journey has come from. So I wonder here if you can share why you like this metaphor so much of the labyrinth.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Elaine Carney Gibson:<\/b> I\u2019m not sure why I like it, but I do like it, because I think that we do start kind of in this small place. And again, birth mother\u2014and so that would be someone who has been adopted, still starts with this birth mother and whatever was going on with her and the issues around birth. And then depending on if they\u2019re not staying in that nuclear system but adopted, then that becomes their nuclear family and those family\u2019s patterns, ideals, and beliefs and ways of relating all get passed down to the individual children.<\/span><\/p>\n

So you\u2019re starting there, and then hopefully we\u2019re going to be growing. We\u2019re getting older. So hopefully in that process we are also growing. We\u2019re growing mentally, emotionally; we\u2019re getting to know more who we are, getting in touch with our identity that is connected to and separate from the family as we go out into the world.<\/span><\/p>\n

So I like the idea of that journey, and then the idea of periodically kind of taking a look at\u2014more psychologically than any other way\u2014but taking a look at, \u201cOK, where have we come from? What have we learned? What have been our experiences, and what are we carrying with us now that has been helpful to us, that has perhaps been harmful to us?\u201d And exploring that and then circling back out and periodically circling back in.<\/span><\/p>\n

I talk in the book about how a 10-year-old understands where she is, and her journey is going to be different than a 20-year-old or a 40-year-old or an 80-year-old. We\u2019re going to be able to look back, have different understandings and perceptions of our experiences. So I\u2019ve always just liked the metaphor.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> And you write that understanding our family can free us. And this is something I definitely want to hear you speak more about. What I\u2019ve noticed is that actually as I\u2019ve gotten older and I\u2019ve circled back to my early upbringing, I\u2019ve had a lot more understanding of, \u201cOhhh.\u201d My understanding keeps increasing, but it continues to be quite painful. Like there\u2019s still unresolved, if you will, painful memories that I still have to metabolize from those early childhood experiences. So if it can free us, I\u2019m willing to make the journey, but it\u2019s hard. So I wonder if you can speak more about that.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Elaine Carney Gibson:<\/b> Well, I think it is hard, and it can be very difficult depending on what one\u2019s experiences have been. And I think about trauma in that that experience is a part of our history, but we can heal, and when we think about it, it is still painful, but we can be on a healing journey from those experiences that have been wounding to us in an emotional, psychological, soulful kind of way. And a lot of times I think that\u2019s why people are in therapy is because it could be a helpful way for them to have that exploration in a safe place with someone who might then offer some different perspectives and some suggestions in terms of what might be rituals or thinking shifts that could help them heal the woundedness from those experiences. And of course we always have to grieve those. So grieving is part of that process, I think, of healing.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> Now when someone comes to you, and they say, \u201cMy child XYZ\u2014I\u2019m coming to you because you\u2019re a family therapist, and my child is having anxiety, or my child doesn\u2019t want to go to school.\u201d How do you sort out, \u201cOh, this is a family systems issue,\u201d or there\u2019s something happening inside this child that may or may not specifically relate to the dynamics in the family or maybe\u2014I\u2019m curious how you see it.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Elaine Carney Gibson:<\/b> Well, it takes a little while. It\u2019s not usually automatic that I would know that, because I assume even if this is something going on in the child chemically, biologically, there\u2019s something going on that this is particular to the child that I do know that the system impacts that in a positive or negative way, that the system can be\u2026 In fact, I\u2019ll share this story because I think it\u2019s just a lovely story. It\u2019s one of the ones that\u2019s written up in all the textbooks I\u2019ve ever seen in the beginning of family therapy.<\/span><\/p>\n

It was taking place\u2014I forget, one of the clinics, I honestly can\u2019t remember in the moment. I don\u2019t even want to name one because I\u2019m not sure, but it was in a hospital setting and they were just beginning to observe families and the interactions and the nonverbal signals that we\u2019re sending to one another. And so there was a group observing this young man who was in the hospital being treated for schizophrenia, and it was a visiting day and his mother came. And this man was doing so much better. He was getting treatment, he was doing so much better, and they really thought, \u201cWell, he\u2019s about ready to be released from the hospital.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

And so his mother walks in, and he walks up to his mother to put his arms around her, and she puts her hands up to say, \u201cDon\u2019t hug me.\u201d And so he backed off, and he became a little bit confused but stood there a minute, and then she said to him when he started looking a little sad, \u201cWhat\u2019s the matter? You\u2019re not happy to see me?\u201d And he went right back into some of the psychotic stuff he had been into, and what the observers were noticing was the double bind\u2014that he wanted to greet her with a hug, and when that was rejected, then he was scolded because he wasn\u2019t wanting to see her, and that we put one another in binds a lot.<\/span><\/p>\n

But sometimes when the children come in, I want to observe families, I want to help them, I want to support the family, because this could be some very difficult times for the parents, and support them, support their parenting, and support them emotionally, but also then how can they best be with the child, that maybe then whatever\u2019s going on, the child becomes no longer school phobic or no longer so anxious.<\/span><\/p>\n

But if they are\u2014if this is a chemical\/biological issue, then there needs to be another treatment involved as well. With young children, I certainly hate to see some of these young children put on all these different medications, but sometimes that\u2019s what\u2019s necessary. But I think the family can impact\u2014they can create the situation, but often they\u2019re not creating it, but they might be able to find ways that they can all live with this is what is and function so that they\u2019re all feeling more at ease in the situation.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> Now, Elaine, when I asked you to share what are some of the most important concepts in the family systems model that are important to you, you mentioned a few different things, and I thought it would be helpful to go into it a bit. One of them was you mentioned the notion of how in the family systems model, we look at hierarchy in the family, and you write about this in <\/span>Your Family Revealed<\/span><\/i>. What is considered the healthy functioning hierarchy in a family?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Elaine Carney Gibson:<\/b> The healthy functioning is that there is a functioning executive system, and generally that\u2019s the parents or parent subsystem. That may be one parent, that may be two parents, that may be parents and grandparents or caretakers of children. So that system may be\u2014I\u2019m not sure who\u2019s going to be in the system beyond a parent, but there has to be an executive functioning system. And that I say to parents, \u201cIt\u2019s not only you\u2019re right to be in charge, but it is your duty,\u201d because when children feel like there\u2019s no one taking control and setting limits and boundaries and providing a safe place, then the child feels insecure and that\u2019s certainly going to create a lot of anxiety. So it\u2019s important that there is an executive functioning subsystem in the family.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> How would you know in a family there\u2019s a good executive functioning subsystem? It\u2019s working well, check\u2014versus \u201cOh gosh, I got some serious question marks here. I\u2019m not sure.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Elaine Carney Gibson:<\/b> Well, it\u2019s usually pretty obvious when they present. I mean, there are times when the parents are\u2014this is particularly true with teenagers, it can get complicated. If you\u2019re reading the book, it can be over-functioning and under-functioning. There\u2019s the parents where they have too many rules. And I\u2019ll say to parents, \u201cAs the children get older, that what you want to have are less rules, that the child has more autonomy to make their own decisions, and hopefully they\u2019ve learned along the way what could be healthy, positive decisions, actions, etc.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Because by the time most kids are around 18, they\u2019re leaving home\u2014whether they\u2019re going to college or they\u2019re deciding to travel or they\u2019re going to go work and get an apartment\u2014around that age. We know that more and more young people are staying at home these days for longer periods of time. But in the traditional model, that\u2019s kind of how it worked. So you want your child at that point to be a functioning adult, to be able to make good decisions.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so you kind of watch how the parents are setting that up. They come in, and the kids are rebelling, sometimes what we call \u201cacting out.\u201d And you look at that and it\u2019s like, OK. Often it\u2019s very interesting, Tami, because there are some times where that means that there\u2019s not enough rules and the kids are doing everything they can to get these parents to be parents. And so I\u2019m going to help the parents step up and set some limits and boundaries and consequences for behaviors.<\/span><\/p>\n

There are other times where that\u2019s happening, and it\u2019s because the parents have become so rigid and are really treating this teenager like they have to tell them everything to do and don\u2019t do like they were maybe three or four years old, and it\u2019s like, \u201cOK, it\u2019s time to back off. You\u2019ve raised a good kid here, give them a little space to breathe.\u201d So it almost falls into one camp or the other. You don\u2019t know until you sit with them and you hear more from each of the family members.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> Now, you yourself have raised three children, yes, and now you\u2019re a grandparent. And one of the things I was curious about is, as a grandma, do you ever see things happening where you see your kids perhaps over-functioning or under-functioning and think, \u201cLook, I\u2019m not just a grandma but I\u2019ve taught graduate-level family systems theory. I think I have to say something.\u201d Or do you keep it to yourself?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Elaine Carney Gibson:<\/b> That\u2019s really a good question and a tough question. I generally keep it to myself, unless asked. And if they ask me or there\u2019s a concern about a child and they ask me about it, then I\u2019m going to share with them. I have said something on occasion, but it\u2019s generally not my rule.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

I remember I had a graduate student one time, and her son was getting married and she was real upset about it, and she said, \u201cI don\u2019t know what to do.\u201d I said, \u201cWell, I have a theory about that,\u201d because she was going to be mother of the groom. And I said, \u201cWear beige and be quiet.\u201d And she still\u2014that was about 20 years ago\u2014she still, every once in a while when I hear from her, she said, \u201cThat was really good advice, because I\u2019m always wanting to jump in as a therapist and guide my son and his wife and their family.\u201d And she says, \u201cI just always remember what you said, \u2018Wear beige and be quiet.\u2019\u201d And so I kind of follow that rule.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> Well, Elaine, I was impressed, as you wrote about in <\/span>Your Family Revealed<\/span><\/i>, the clear boundaries that you seemed to be able to maintain in raising your children. And you write about a sign that you had in your kitchen, \u201cWhat part of no don\u2019t you understand?,\u201d and that when your kids would say, \u201cBut baba, baba, blah, blah, blah, blah,\u201d you\u2019d point to the sign. I was very impressed by that, and I\u2019m impressed by your answer to this question here.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Elaine Carney Gibson:<\/b> Thank you.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> And for parents or grandparents or any of us who, having clear boundaries like this, it\u2019s not easy for us for whatever reason. How have you seen coaching people and training people so that they can sit in that executive-in-charge role in their family with really good boundaries? How do you help people develop that muscle?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Elaine Carney Gibson:<\/b> Well, I was fortunate enough, again, in my early part of my training to do quite a lot of parenting classes. So as I was teaching parents about being parents, I was learning more and more from them about that, because I always want to learn. I want to learn from my clients. I want to learn from the students I\u2019ve had. I\u2019m always wanting to learn, because I feel like they have a lot to teach me, and hopefully I have something to teach them. And so I want to teach them good parenting skills.<\/span><\/p>\n

And part of that is they may have some personal work to do, because they\u2019re projecting onto their children in a way then that is not helpful for them and certainly not helpful for the children. So I\u2019m going to do some work with them as individuals, not just as parents, and then to help them learn good parenting skills. There\u2019s a lot written about that. Some people, they want to know about it, but they\u2019re not so much interested in a class.<\/span><\/p>\n

But if you talk with them about it on their personal basis and their personal situation, their individual situations, then they seem to be willing to listen and to practice, make some changes. And we always evaluate, and that\u2019s what I always say, \u201cAlways evaluate.\u201d When you do these things, take time\u2014to not just throw up your hands and say, \u201cWell, that didn\u2019t work,\u201d or, \u201cSomething\u2019s wrong with them\u201d\u2014take time to evaluate and look at what is not working. So I don\u2019t know if that answered your question at all.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> Well, I\u2019ll keep going here. You mentioned that with a parenting class, you asked a question to the class, \u201cWhat do you think is the most important thing for your children?\u201d And many people raised their hand and said, \u201cWe want our children to be happy.\u201d And you were hitting the \u201cbad\u201d buzzer. Wrong answer. The most important thing is that children feel secure. And I have a couple of questions about this. The first is, besides being clear about the hierarchy we have\u2014this is the executives in charge of this family\u2014what else helps young children in a family feel secure?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Elaine Carney Gibson:<\/b> I think having, for really young children, an idea of a schedule, and I think this is particularly true with children with ADHD to have. They know what to expect. They know when bedtime is. They know that there\u2019s going to be dinner on the table or something to eat. They don\u2019t have to go try to figure that out on their own. They know that somebody\u2019s going to get them up in the morning, unless they were\u2014my oldest son decided at six he needed his own alarm clock and that was it, never had to get him up again.<\/span><\/p>\n

But that there\u2019s somebody else in charge so they don\u2019t have to worry about these kinds of things. Now they may fight you with it, they may not want to go brush your teeth, but the ritual, OK, you brush your teeth or you take your bath or whatever you do and then you\u2019re going to go to bed. For some people, there may be little kids; there may be a bedtime story depending on the parent\u2019s schedule and energy. So they like to know that there\u2019s somebody else who is in charge.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so I would want to help parents kind of figure that out. It was interesting, because in the \u201970s when I was having my first two children, and when I was starting in the field in the early \u201970s, there was a whole attitude for a while of just to let everybody do everything. Kids stay up as late as they want, you eat any time of day, there\u2019s just food, go get it when you want it. And that really\u2014it\u2019s a nice idea of freedom, but it created a lot of insecurity, and we find that young kids do better if there is something they can count on and it doesn\u2019t become an unknown, because the unknown is kind of what is scary.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> Now, Elaine, I can\u2019t help myself here. I\u2019m thinking of how you talked about how as kids get older and they approach 18, they have more freedoms. And I\u2019m thinking of people that I know who have teenage kids who are staying up to all hours doing whatever they want, and they\u2019re confused about, \u201cWell, obviously I have to roll with my children now getting older, but what\u2019s going on here? This does not look right to me.\u201d And so how do you address that concern?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Elaine Carney Gibson:<\/b> Kind of depends on the situation in the family, and for me to get a sense of the kid. Is there something going on here that this is\u2026 When families come in, I think of the presenting problem as a symptom. So if they\u2019re coming in because a kid\u2019s staying out too late or whatever else the kid is doing, that they come in with that presenting problem, I think of it as the symptom, and the person is the symptom bearer. And I then want to look at how that fits into the system, and is there some way the system can shift that will then eliminate or drastically create a change in the behavior of this person, individual, who\u2019s coming in as the symptom bearer? And I give several examples in my book, I think, of how that\u2019s worked in different times with different families that I\u2019ve seen.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> Can you share an example here? Because I think it\u2019s a very powerful idea to look at the\u2014yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Elaine Carney Gibson:<\/b> Well, the one that pops into my mind, and I think I have several, but the one that pops into my mind is the mother. She was a single mom who brought in her teenage son who was drinking too much and his grades were going down. He was a senior in high school, and this kid had been a good kid. He\u2019d not gotten in trouble, he didn\u2019t use alcohol or drugs, his grades were good, but they were going down his senior year and so she brought him in.<\/span><\/p>\n

So again, I\u2019m going to think I could have done individual therapy with this kid and that probably would\u2019ve helped. But in this case, I decided to do family therapy. And when I listened to the story\u2014the parents got divorced, and the kid was I think around 10-ish or so, and there was an older brother living at home at the time. And the mother\u2014so now this kid is a senior in high school\u2014and the mother is an executive businesswoman, and she has met someone who\u2019s out of state, and she\u2019s going to visit.<\/span><\/p>\n

Well, that could have been a hypothesis that he\u2019s upset about that, but I thought, \u201cWell, that\u2019s just a hypothesis, so we\u2019ll put that over there as a possibility.\u201d So when I talk with him, I realize he\u2019s very happy for his mother, but she works a lot and she gets home about seven or eight o\u2019clock at night, and they might talk a few minutes but they don\u2019t spend time together. So then my hypothesis became that he was missing his mother, and he wanted more time with his mother.<\/span><\/p>\n

And I put that out there. I said, \u201cI think he\u2019s getting ready to go off to college in the fall, and I\u2019m thinking before he goes he\u2019s needing more time with his mother.\u201d And they both look at me like I\u2019m totally nuts. But then this little smile creeped on his face, this little turn-up smile. And I thought, \u201cOK, I think I\u2019m getting somewhere here.\u201d So I said, \u201cHow would it be, Mom, if you tried to get home a couple nights a week and had dinner with him?\u201d And he broke into a big smile. He said, \u201cI\u2019ll cook the dinner.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

And the mother said, \u201cOK, well, I\u2019ll shop and get some food, and you can cook or we\u2019ll cook together.\u201d So then I saw them each individual a couple times, and then I\u2019d see them together. So that\u2019s how I did it: I\u2019d see each together and individually. So then I realized that some of this drinking issue had to do with his father who left. And that was one of the reasons for the divorce was the father was an alcoholic. So I asked the boy if there was some other way he could honor his father besides imitating that behavior.<\/span><\/p>\n

And he just sat in the session, his mother was present, and he just looked at me and he started crying, and he said, \u201cWell, you know, people tell me that he was the life of the party and he was really lots of fun, but I always felt like I couldn\u2019t own that,\u201d or not his words, \u201cBut I couldn\u2019t express that he was lots of fun, because then I was afraid my mother would feel I was disloyal to her.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

So the two of them talked about that and her giving him permission to have some kind thoughts and loving thoughts about his father, that she wasn\u2019t asking him to choose her, and he wasn\u2019t being disloyal to have those thoughts and feelings. Well, his grades went up, and I\u2019m sure he was still drinking now and then, but he wasn\u2019t getting drunk, and that was one of the reasons that brought them in\u2014he\u2019d gotten drunk. And so that stopped.<\/span><\/p>\n

But again, that was talking about the system, talking about the relationship, the divorce, his wanting time with his mother, feeling that there was too much distance between them. And so being able to look at that and kind of pull the picture together so there wasn\u2019t so much distance, and because there wasn\u2019t this issue he feared of being disloyal. And then it really turned out to be a happy ending with them. So that\u2019s the kind of thing I\u2019m talking about. I\u2019m not just labeling the kid.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> It\u2019s interesting in listening to you talk about the story and talking about \u201cI nominated this hypothesis or this hypothesis.\u201d It\u2019s like you\u2019re an investigative scientist in a way, really trying to see clearly.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Elaine Carney Gibson:<\/b> I think there\u2019s truth to that. I think that that\u2019s kind of what we do, is that the hypotheses are out there, but not to just jump on one, to let them just be there and kind of figure out\u2014the right answer will come up eventually if you just sit with it. And in this case it did. But yes, I do think you have to do a little bit of that. You have to be curious. That\u2019s the word I tell a lot of my supervisees. We\u2019re curious, and out of our curiosity is the hope that the individuals we\u2019re seeing, that they\u2019ll become curious about themselves in a way they haven\u2019t been.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> Now, I wanted to ask you a question about being raised in a family where you feel secure. And for those of us who didn\u2019t feel secure for whatever reason, maybe it was a bonding issue with our mother, or our mother or father, or maybe it was just feeling like an outsider in our family, or maybe we weren\u2019t even fed properly and the executive function was really not working well and we didn\u2019t have regular meals provided, that kind of thing. Talk to me about the journey of repairing, of healing that, if you felt like you weren\u2019t raised with a sense of security.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Elaine Carney Gibson:<\/b> Well, depending on when that started, it\u2019s a long journey. So if that was your very early experience, yes, it\u2019s a very long journey, and it\u2019s for all of us, I think, is finding that place in ourselves that feels that it\u2019s safe to know ourselves and to honor ourselves and our own wants and needs, and to be able to have voice. And so to kind of go along and help people identify that, because a lot of times people can\u2019t identify that. They\u2019ve had no experience.<\/span><\/p>\n

So even being able to identify your own feelings, your own wants, your own needs, and then to be able to have voice, to give voice to that, I think that\u2019s part of the healing process. And if you\u2019re in relationship, to be able to share that together and then in creating that intimacy, and hopefully then that\u2019s a healing experience.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> There\u2019s a sentence I pulled out from <\/span>Your Family Revealed<\/span><\/i>: \u201cI believe we cannot have intimacy without conflict.\u201d And I pulled that sentence out because I think sometimes there\u2019s this sense of as you grow in your intimate relationships, you won\u2019t fight anymore or something like that. And I thought, \u201cIs that true?\u201d Or maybe conflict is serving an important function as we bring our voices forward, and we say, \u201cThis isn\u2019t working for me, or this isn\u2019t working, or\u2026\u201d So anyway, tell me, yes, what\u2019s behind it.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Elaine Carney Gibson:<\/b> Well, I think that I don\u2019t know how we cannot have disagreements about things, and we\u2019re not always on the same page. So it\u2019s how we handle that; it\u2019s how we handle the conflict. And the safety that we have in the relationship to be able to say, \u201cI disagree. I don\u2019t want to. I\u2019ll do that, but I don\u2019t want to do it on your timeframe.\u201d\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

So it\u2019s creating the safety in the relationship to do that I think is very important because it\u2019s going to happen. We\u2019re not going to all be on the same page at the same time, and we are going to go through our own personal trials and tribulations and that\u2019s going to impact the other, and the other\u2019s going to have their response to that, and that\u2019s OK. And then to be able to deal with that in a way that can become growthful and connecting rather than it be something that separates you and disconnects you.<\/span><\/p>\n

I\u2019ve told couples before who\u2019ve come in, and they\u2019re fighting, and that\u2019s the presenting problem. They\u2019re fighting, fighting. And I\u2019ll sometimes say to them, \u201cOh, then there\u2019s hope.\u201d And they\u2019ll look at me like, \u201cWhat?\u201d And I\u2019ll say, \u201cYes, because if you came in and you were each sitting there on the couch and you had no energy to even talk about one another or to one another, I wouldn\u2019t be very hopeful. But the fact that you\u2019re fighting means there\u2019s some energy in this relationship. Let\u2019s tap it and put it towards a positive direction rather than the negative direction.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> Now circling back for a moment, when I asked you what some of the most important concepts and principles are of family therapy, you mentioned looking at triangles in the family. So in addition to seeing hierarchy and the role of this executive function and having clear boundaries, we need to look at triangles. And you mentioned a little bit this notion that you\u2019re not supposed to make one of your children parentified. And I think we hear about that a lot. I wonder if you can talk about what a parentified child looks like and how parents\u2014don\u2019t do this. How do you avoid that?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Elaine Carney Gibson:<\/b> Yes. Well, I think it is one of the things we see quite often. And if a child is brought in as the symptom bearer, I\u2019m often going to look as that as being one of the reasons why they\u2019re the symptom bearer. Because the parentified child has a lot put on them, and a lot of children get parentified, but it may not last long.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

I give the example even in the book of when I was four years old, and my mother\u2014I had a younger brother, and then my sister was born, and I was the oldest\u2014and my brother and I had mumps or measles. I say it was measles, my brother thinks it was mumps, but we were sick with one of those childhood diseases, and my sister had infected fingernails, and my mother had to come into our room, take care of us, drop her clothes, take a shower, go in the baby\u2019s room, and after several weeks she had an emotional breakdown. At four years old, I\u2019m washing the dishes. I\u2019m standing on the stool in the kitchen and washing and drying the dishes. Well, that only lasted for a week or two, and then I\u2019m no longer in that role being the parentified child.<\/span><\/p>\n

So a lot of times children move up into that space because they need to; the family needs a child to do that to function. It\u2019s when they get locked in that position, and oftentimes then they\u2019re getting pulled either against another parent, the other parent, or they\u2019re having demands made on them that\u2019s beyond their level of being able to do that, or is putting them in such an awkward position. I can\u2019t remember, I think I put this example in my book of the mother who is dating and then confesses all the stuff to her teenage daughter about what\u2019s going on in her dating experiences, including her romantic sexual life.<\/span><\/p>\n

And the daughter didn\u2019t want to hear that. It was too much information; it was inappropriate. It brought her up to the level more of a peer, and then the expectations she had of her to do the things around the house because she was out having her dating experiences. So then the child wasn\u2019t getting to be a child, and that was not healthy. This child was having a lot of anxiety and depression.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so it was OK, you need to let your child be a child and find somebody else to share a lot of this stuff with you if you want to talk about it. This is not appropriate. So there\u2019s a lot of ways that we parentify a child from all ages, but it\u2019s when a child gets stuck in that or when it becomes the child has an emotional negative experience around it.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> Now, you write that triangulation in a family system is an attempt to reduce anxiety, the anxiety that\u2019s in the couple and they can\u2019t handle it, work it out themselves in their intimate relationship. So then this triangulation occurs. What occurs to me is just how many parents have difficult relationships, difficult marriages, and then how that plays out with the impacts on children. And I guess I just want to hear more about what you have to say about that. I mean, I know so many people who of course get divorced in the course of raising children, and it\u2019s clear that the marriage isn\u2019t working out and their children are experiencing the impacts of that. I\u2019m just curious how you view that in your role as a therapist.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Elaine Carney Gibson:<\/b> Well, I want to say a couple things about that just to\u2026 Let me come back to that one.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> Sure.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Elaine Carney Gibson:<\/b> I\u2019m going to forget the other comment if I go right there. It\u2019s an interesting thing because I think we all long to be seen and known, and we\u2019re all terrified of it. So I think there being some anxiety or tension in any relationship can be pretty normal. And depending on how frightened we are of truly being intimate, we carry the anxiety and tension. So a lot of times when we\u2019re drawing a child in, it\u2019s not because we\u2019re fighting with our partner or we\u2019re even unhappy or anything else, it\u2019s just simply that there\u2019s anxiety and tension about even the intimacy.<\/span><\/p>\n

So by bringing in\u2014and doesn\u2019t always have to be a child, but we can triangulate with a pet, with work, with other things, but oftentimes then we\u2019re talking about triangulating with the child. And the child then can be a parentified child. It can also be a child that has a problem in some ways, and that becomes the focus. So there\u2019s different ways that we can triangle children, but we can also use other individuals and things to triangulate.<\/span><\/p>\n

So I think that in the situation where marriage is not working, and it\u2019s quite common\u201450 percent of marriages end in divorce\u2014that yes, it\u2019s going to impact everyone in the family, including the children. But we know that there\u2019s healthy divorces, we know that there\u2019s ways to do that, that children can both still feel loved and important and it\u2019s not their fault that the parents got divorced, which is often a belief the child has.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so that can still happen, that not every relationship works. So there\u2019s a way I think parents can do that. And oftentimes people will come in to have help on, how can we do this in a way that we know it\u2019s going to impact our children? Of course it is, but how can we do it in a way that it is the best way we could possibly do it, so that they can still feel secure, they can still feel loved, and they still have family, and it\u2019s just different. It\u2019s just going to be a different form. That can work.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> We started our conversation, Elaine, and I wanted to know a little bit more of your love for this field of family therapy, because truly that\u2019s what I get from reading <\/span>Your Family Revealed<\/span><\/i> is how much you deeply respect and value this way of looking at growth in individuals as part of a system. And I\u2019m curious to know as you look at the future of family therapy, what you see, what you think is on the horizon, what evolutionary developments might be occurring even as we speak right here?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Elaine Carney Gibson:<\/b> Well, there\u2019s some wonderful programs out there, ways that people are working with families, but I think it comes back to the basics. And the basics are what I share in the book. I mean, like I said at the end of the book for therapists, this is just kind of the cream off the top. If you want to know more about these subjects, you really need to delve into each kind of systems theory a little bit more.<\/span><\/p>\n

But to bring that into your work, my concern\u2014I think there\u2019s a lot of good family therapists being trained, and they\u2019re learning about family systems. My hope is they\u2019re also learning humanistic psychology, and they\u2019re learning some in-depth psychology or the Carl Jung kind of school of in-depth psychology to bring in as part of it. And that\u2019s more of my concern is that some of the programs aren\u2019t including that, maybe in the way that I would wish that they were.<\/span><\/p>\n

Because I think that we do\u2014it\u2019s like you said earlier about being the forensic scientist or something to kind of sort through the different hypotheses and what\u2019s happening, but it\u2019s also looking at each individual, we\u2019re looking at the system as a whole, but we\u2019re really looking at each individual and their well-being, and we don\u2019t want to forget that and then how to work with them in a compassionate and healing, strengthening kind of way.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> And then I\u2019m also curious to know how much you look at inherited intergenerational patterns, inherited patterns, and how you view that in your work.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Elaine Carney Gibson:<\/b> Well, I think the intergenerational concept of Murray Bowen is brilliant and that I want to look at it constantly is because that has to do with the messages, the beliefs, the experiences that the generations have had that are being passed down. I remember years ago, I think, yes, it was now years ago that I had this belief that women carried their mother\u2019s and grandmother\u2019s trauma. I don\u2019t know why; it was just an intuition. Nothing was written about it at the time. But of course now things have been written about it, and we know that that\u2019s true.<\/span><\/p>\n

I don\u2019t think it\u2019s just women. At the time, that was my belief because I was hearing that more from women. And when I would sit with them and would explore, I realized that some of the trauma or some of the woundedness or some of the fear they were carrying and anxiety was really their mother\u2019s. So I wanted to help them separate that out so that they could know, \u201cOK, I can have compassion and understanding, but I don\u2019t need to carry that woundedness and that pain,\u201d to separate some of that out.<\/span><\/p>\n

We know now that there\u2019s more scientific research that says, yes, we do carry that in our DNA, that there is the intergenerational transmission process going on both biologically and emotionally, mentally. So I think it\u2019s a very important concept. And I really don\u2019t know if you\u2019re familiar with the work with Murray Bowen, but I just\u2014I\u2019ve always just so appreciated his work around all of this, and he was the first person I knew that kind of jumped into it and talked about it.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> But what would you say to someone who says, \u201cI get it, that this is from a different generation and it\u2019s not mine and I can have compassion, but it feels like it\u2019s mine?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Elaine Carney Gibson:<\/b> Well, it does. It does feel that way. I think once you have the awareness that you are carrying it, then you do have some choice about\u2014that it does feel that way. But I think it can feel less that way and that you can move to reprogramming your thinking about it. And I think that\u2019s a lot of the work we\u2019re doing in therapy in general. It\u2019s kind of a reprogramming. It\u2019s because with the thought then we also then can have a different feeling about it. So just sitting and working with that idea and really feeling the compassion for, if you know the story\u2014sometimes we know the story, sometimes we don\u2019t. We feel it, but we don\u2019t know the story. If we know the story, I think that can be very helpful, but we don\u2019t always know the story.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> Finally, Elaine, you poured so much of your knowledge into the book <\/span>Your Family Revealed: A Guide to Decoding the Patterns, Stories, and Belief Systems in Your Family<\/span><\/i>. What do you hope readers will get from the book?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Elaine Carney Gibson:<\/b> Well, I hope that they\u2019ll be able to have a clear understanding of maybe why they are caught in a pattern they\u2019re caught in, whether it\u2019s their thinking or behavior or relationship patterns. I\u2019ve had a lot of people say to me, \u201cWell, I don\u2019t like my relationship with my sister, but I don\u2019t know I can make it any different.\u201d Or, \u201cI don\u2019t know how to get out of this thing of rescuing.\u201d Or, \u201cI don\u2019t know how to get out of this being pulled into an issue to other family members.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

So I was hoping that it might help them identify it in a way that would then give them some knowledge to make a different choice about how they might want to move forward in their lives. So if you don\u2019t want to stay in a triangle, identify the triangle and the patterns of the triangle, and then you can decide, \u201cOh yes, I don\u2019t like it, but I do want to stay in it anyway because I get certain payoffs.\u201d Or, \u201cNo, I really do want to get out of this triangle. Now that I can identify it, I can make some new choices and behaviors about getting out of it so I\u2019m no longer caught in it in a way that feels destructive to me.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

So that\u2019s what I\u2019m hoping. I\u2019m hoping is people will just have a way of maybe understanding these dynamics that\u2019ll be useful to them in making some new choices and making some new decisions about how they want to live their life and how they want to be in relationship.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> I\u2019ve been speaking with Elaine Carney Gibson. She\u2019s the author of the new book <\/span>Your Family Revealed: A Guide to Decoding the Patterns, Stories, and Belief Systems in Your Family<\/span><\/i>. It\u2019s a deep contemplative mirror for your family of origin and how you were raised and what your experience was in your family. And then if you\u2019re in the midst of raising a family today, please read it: <\/span>Your Family Revealed<\/span><\/i>. There\u2019s so much good counsel in this book. Elaine, thank you so much. Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Elaine Carney Gibson:<\/b> Thank you so much.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> And if you\u2019d like to watch <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i> on video and participate in after-the-show Q&A conversations with featured presenters and have the chance to ask your questions, come join us on Sounds True One, a new membership community that features premium shows, live classes, and community events. Let\u2019s learn and grow together. Come join us at join.soundstrue.com. Sounds True: waking up the world.<\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"template":"","meta":{"_expiration-date-status":"","_expiration-date":0,"_expiration-date-type":"","_expiration-date-categories":[],"_expiration-date-options":[]},"class_list":["post-19843","transcript","type-transcript","status-publish","hentry"],"yoast_head":"\nLearning From Family Systems Theory - Transcript | Sounds True<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Learning From Family Systems Theory. Explore teachings on meditation and spiritual wisdom.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"noindex, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Learning From Family Systems Theory - Transcript | Sounds True\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Learning From Family Systems Theory. Explore teachings on meditation and spiritual wisdom.\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/learning-from-family-systems-theory\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Sounds True\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:modified_time\" content=\"2023-01-09T21:16:37+00:00\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"48 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/learning-from-family-systems-theory\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/learning-from-family-systems-theory\/\",\"name\":\"Learning From Family Systems Theory - Transcript | Sounds True\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#website\"},\"datePublished\":\"2023-01-05T18:00:22+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2023-01-09T21:16:37+00:00\",\"description\":\"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Learning From Family Systems Theory. Explore teachings on meditation and spiritual wisdom.\",\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/learning-from-family-systems-theory\/#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/learning-from-family-systems-theory\/\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/learning-from-family-systems-theory\/#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"Transcripts\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":3,\"name\":\"Learning from Family Systems Theory\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/\",\"name\":\"Sounds True\",\"description\":\"\",\"publisher\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#organization\"},\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":{\"@type\":\"PropertyValueSpecification\",\"valueRequired\":true,\"valueName\":\"search_term_string\"}}],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"Organization\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#organization\",\"name\":\"Sounds True\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/\",\"logo\":{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#\/schema\/logo\/image\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/08\/soundstrue-logo-footer-color.png\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/08\/soundstrue-logo-footer-color.png\",\"width\":1035,\"height\":235,\"caption\":\"Sounds True\"},\"image\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#\/schema\/logo\/image\/\"}}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Learning From Family Systems Theory - Transcript | Sounds True","description":"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Learning From Family Systems Theory. Explore teachings on meditation and spiritual wisdom.","robots":{"index":"noindex","follow":"follow","max-snippet":"max-snippet:-1","max-image-preview":"max-image-preview:large","max-video-preview":"max-video-preview:-1"},"og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"Learning From Family Systems Theory - Transcript | Sounds True","og_description":"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Learning From Family Systems Theory. Explore teachings on meditation and spiritual wisdom.","og_url":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/learning-from-family-systems-theory\/","og_site_name":"Sounds True","article_modified_time":"2023-01-09T21:16:37+00:00","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_misc":{"Est. reading time":"48 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/learning-from-family-systems-theory\/","url":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/learning-from-family-systems-theory\/","name":"Learning From Family Systems Theory - Transcript | Sounds True","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#website"},"datePublished":"2023-01-05T18:00:22+00:00","dateModified":"2023-01-09T21:16:37+00:00","description":"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Learning From Family Systems Theory. Explore teachings on meditation and spiritual wisdom.","breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/learning-from-family-systems-theory\/#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/learning-from-family-systems-theory\/"]}]},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/learning-from-family-systems-theory\/#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"Transcripts","item":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":3,"name":"Learning from Family Systems Theory"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#website","url":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/","name":"Sounds True","description":"","publisher":{"@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#organization"},"potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":{"@type":"PropertyValueSpecification","valueRequired":true,"valueName":"search_term_string"}}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Organization","@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#organization","name":"Sounds True","url":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/","logo":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#\/schema\/logo\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/08\/soundstrue-logo-footer-color.png","contentUrl":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/08\/soundstrue-logo-footer-color.png","width":1035,"height":235,"caption":"Sounds True"},"image":{"@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#\/schema\/logo\/image\/"}}]}},"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/transcript\/19843","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/transcript"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/transcript"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=19843"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}