{"id":19917,"date":"2023-01-19T10:56:06","date_gmt":"2023-01-19T17:56:06","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?post_type=transcript&p=19917"},"modified":"2023-01-19T10:56:06","modified_gmt":"2023-01-19T17:56:06","slug":"so-when-are-you-having-kids","status":"publish","type":"transcript","link":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/so-when-are-you-having-kids\/","title":{"rendered":"So When Are You Having Kids?"},"content":{"rendered":"
\"image_print\"Print Transcript<\/span><\/a><\/div>

Tami Simon:<\/b> Hello, friends. My name\u2019s Tami Simon, and I\u2019m the founder of Sounds True. And I want to welcome you to the Sounds True podcast, <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

I also want to take a moment to introduce you to Sounds True\u2019s new membership community and digital platform. It\u2019s called Sounds True One. Sounds True One features original, premium, transformational docuseries, community events, classes to start your day and relax in the evening, special weekly live shows, including a video version of <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i> with an aftershow community question-and-answer session with featured guests. I hope you\u2019ll come join us, explore, come have fun with us, and connect with others. You can learn more at join.soundstrue.com.<\/span><\/p>\n

I also want to take a moment and introduce you to the Sounds True Foundation, our nonprofit that creates equitable access to transformational tools and teachings. You can learn more at SoundsTrueFoundation.org. And in advance, thank you for your support.<\/span><\/p>\n

In this episode of <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>, my guest is Jordan Davidson. Jordan is an award-winning health journalist and reproductive health advocate whose work has appeared in media outlets such as Parents, Health, <\/span>Prevention<\/span><\/i>, <\/span>Men\u2019s Health<\/span><\/i>, Teen Vogue, BuzzFeed, <\/span>NBC Nightly News<\/span><\/i>, and more. With Sounds True, Jordan Davidson is the author of a new book, <\/span>So When Are You Having Kids: The Definitive Guide for Those Who Aren\u2019t Sure If, When, or How They Want to Become Parents<\/span><\/i>. Jordan is a gifted writer and researcher. She takes complex issues, and she breaks them down into their component parts so that we can appreciate the nuance of what she calls the \u201cbiggest decision\u201d we might ever make in our lifetime, the decision to have or not have children. Here\u2019s my conversation with the very intelligent and wise 31-year-old Jordan Davidson.<\/span><\/p>\n

To begin with, Jordan, and as a way to introduce you to our listeners, tell us a bit about your journey to writing <\/span>So When Are You Having Kids<\/span><\/i>.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Jordan Davidson:<\/b> I first got the idea for <\/span>So When Are You Having Kids<\/span><\/i> really from my own personal experience. I was trying to figure out for myself whether or not I wanted to have children. And in looking at the resources available to me at the time and speaking to friends and family, I felt really dissatisfied with the answers that I was getting, and it didn\u2019t help me feel prepared. And I was really aching for something that would help me make what is, without a doubt, one of the most consequential decisions of your life. It wasn\u2019t something that I felt like I could just go with my gut or not do research. I\u2019ve always been a big fan of research; I\u2019m a health journalist. I\u2019ve done research professionally, and so I couldn\u2019t just say, \u201cOh, I\u2019ll go with my gut,\u201d since my gut wasn\u2019t telling me what to do especially.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so I began the research for this book really on a personal level. The more that I dug into the research, it felt clear to me that it should be something written down for other people to benefit from as well. Because one thing that was clear to me in talking to others was how common this apprehension that I felt is. It\u2019s why we see the birth rate decreasing year after year, decade after decade. And so, it felt really important to me to have something that was modern and inclusive that could help people really parse through their apprehension like I needed to.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> So just tracking back even further, what inspired you to be a health journalist in the first place?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Jordan Davidson:<\/b> That\u2019s a great question. I was really sick as a kid, and I had a lot of health challenges growing up. I was often in rooms where the adults didn\u2019t have the answer. The adults in the room, they were supposed to be the smartest people in the room, and I was leaving a lot of rooms with questions unanswered and frustrations. This was before the Internet was really a thing, and my grandmother had an old <\/span>Merck Manual<\/span><\/i>. And so I, as a kid, liked doing research in her old <\/span>Merck Manual<\/span><\/i>, which was probably all outdated by the time I was reading it anyway. But I liked solving my own problems, I guess, even as a child.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so doing that research and talking about health and writing about it and trying to create accessible resources\u2014in the US, where I am from, health care is really inaccessible in part because it\u2019s unaffordable for so many people, but because it\u2019s also\u2014there is a learning curve of having to understand all of this really complex information. You get 15 minutes with your doctor, they say a bunch of words that can be difficult to understand, and then people go home and they don\u2019t know what to do with that. And so, it was really enticing for me to be able to put resources out into the world in print or on the Internet that could help people decipher the important things that they needed to live their healthiest lives.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> Now, I\u2019m not just blowing smoke at you\u2014and for people who have listened to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i> for a while, they\u2019ll know this is true\u2014your book is really well written and really well put together. So I just want to start by congratulating you and to say that you\u2019re very talented as a writer and researcher. You interviewed something like 300 people as you put this book together. Where did you find them, and how did you approach it? How did you approach the interviews? What was your like, \u201cHere\u2019s what I\u2019m going for. Here\u2019s my angle in\u201d?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Jordan Davidson:<\/b> Sure. When I started writing the book, one of the first things that I did\u2014because writing a book had been a goal of mine for such a long time, and I wasn\u2019t sure what I wanted to write about, and then this idea hit me and I knew that this was the thing that I had to write about\u2014and so in the process of deciding to write a book, I started talking about it and just putting it out there and telling people, \u201cOh, I\u2019m writing a book.\u201d I remember I was in an Uber and the Uber driver asked me what I do, and I told him I was writing a book, and this was really early days. He said, \u201cWhat kind of book are you writing?\u201d I said, \u201cOh, I\u2019m writing a parenting book. A pre-parenting book, if you will.\u201d He said, \u201cDo you have kids?\u201d I said, \u201cNo.\u201d \u201cWell, what do you know about parenting? What could you possibly know about parenting, then, if you don\u2019t have kids?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

I think that that really guided a lot of, that comment\u2014so shout-out to that Uber driver\u2014that comment really guided a lot of how I did the research for the book, because I don\u2019t want people reading the book or coming away from the book with the idea that I have some sort of agenda or that I want people to have kids or that I don\u2019t want people to have kids. And so it was really important for me to interview a diverse population of people, of parents, of nonparents, of people who are child-free by choice, of people who are child-free not by choice, of people who don\u2019t know if they want kids, that apprehensive middle group.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so, I wanted it to really feel like a community effort. So that was the first thing that really stood out for me in trying to figure out, \u201cOK, who am I interviewing for this book?,\u201d was making sure that I had every perspective represented. Because I think too, even if I had children, that wouldn\u2019t make me necessarily qualify to write a parenting book, because one parent\u2019s perspective is just that\u2014it\u2019s one person\u2019s perspective. And so I really wanted to try and fit as many perspectives into the book as possible, because even from, as I was saying at the start of this, from my own journey talking to other people, that wasn\u2019t helpful for me personally, because it didn\u2019t help me unpack all of the things that I needed to unpack. And so, I set out to say, \u201cOh, how many people could I possibly interview?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

And so I worked on a bunch of different surveys that asked people the same\u2014I\u2019ve been a journalist for over a decade now, so it was really the same way that I would do an interview over the phone or over video. I put that into survey forms, and then I asked people for, \u201cIf you\u2019re interested in talking more, can I have your email?\u201d And so from those surveys I had some follow-up videos and phone calls. Some of it was then over email, further questions, a lot of back-and-forth with people. But I would say that I had at least 100 phone conversations, and then there were about 250 survey responses on some of those and went on to phone conversations and things like that.<\/span><\/p>\n

It was really just pushing out the surveys, sharing them in different places, finding different social communities. I feel like I messaged so many different Facebook moderators and social group moderators of child-free communities. There was even a group I messaged\u2014it was like Boy Moms Unite. I was like, \u201cHi, boy moms, can you unite and take my survey?\u201d And so, doing things like that to try and get a diverse representation. I have people in the book who were outside of the US, so I really tried to focus on US perspectives. I managed to get almost all 50 states. I think maybe I was missing like a Dakota and an Alaska, I want to say, but really trying to get as many perspectives as possible of people who had children early, people who had children later in life, again, with that idea that there is no one perspective that is going to be universally representative of every reader or every path to parenthood.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> You write towards the beginning of the book that even being able to ask this question, \u201cDo I want to have kids or not?\u201d is a certain type of privilege. Why do you say that? Why is it a privilege during this time, at this point in our human evolution, to be able to ask that question?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Jordan Davidson:<\/b> The idea that having children, being able to pause and reflect and ask ourselves that question, being a privilege really has to do a lot with the apprehension that people feel nowadays. Because previously, having children was seen as a mandatory milestone in the path to adulthood. You met someone, you got married, you had kids, and that was the way that it went. In the \u201960s and \u201970s, with the advent of birth control, which introduced reproductive choice, and more women being able to be out in the workforce, that\u2019s when the choice started to happen where we could sit back and think, \u201cIs this what I want?\u201d That didn\u2019t happen before, because it was just assumed that everyone would have children. It was seen as deviant not to. Throughout history, there were all different terms lobbed at people who didn\u2019t have children, because it was seen as bizarre if you didn\u2019t, because it was just this innate thing that everyone was supposed to achieve.<\/span><\/p>\n

And now, especially because the nuclear family has really been turned on its head where you don\u2019t have one parent that can easily stay home, people are realizing that it\u2019s not feasible in some cases or it\u2019s not what they want or it\u2019s not easy or it\u2019s not mandatory. I think a lot of people still feel that pronatalist pressure that gets passed through society that says children are a milestone that you have to achieve or this pressure that gets passed down from families, but it doesn\u2019t exist like it used to in the \u201950s and in the generations prior to that where it was this mandatory step towards adulthood. A lot of those pressures people still feel, and they are present, but it\u2019s not compulsory anymore.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> This term that you introduced, \u201cpronatalist,\u201d I think, for a lot of us, that\u2019s a new word. I never heard that before until I read your book. What does that mean?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Jordan Davidson:<\/b> Pronatalism is this idea that having children is the natural way of being. Societies that are pronatalist are ones that put parenthood on a pedestal and say that this is what we should aspire to, is parenthood. In the \u201950s and the \u201960s, when women started a little bit entering the workplace, the workplace was seen as this force of antinatalism, because the idea was make it difficult for women to enter the workplace so that being home and staying home and being a mother is more enticing. That was the idea of keeping society as a pronatalist society.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

The irony is now that those exact same forces force people into this\u2014what I\u2019m trying to say is that society still views itself as pronatalist, but the society that we live in today is actually very antinatalist. But we call ourselves, and by \u201cwe\u201d I don\u2019t mean \u201cme,\u201d but the view in America is that society is still pronatalist in that it\u2019s still encouraged that you have children. It\u2019s still seen as this rite of passage and holding parents on a pedestal. When you hear a story in the news, someone says, \u201cOh, she was a mother. Oh, this terrible thing happened, and they have kids.\u201d You always hear people framed around their identity as parents. And so pronatalism is what upholds parenthood as this primary identity, but the society that we live in today is actually quite antinatalist.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> What you mean by that is that we don\u2019t provide support for parents across different socioeconomic categories, is that what you mean?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Jordan Davidson:<\/b> Yes. We make it very hard for parents. There is no paid parental leave, no mandated paid parental leave, and there is no universal healthcare. There isn\u2019t consistent financial support for parents. The systems that we have in place don\u2019t really encourage people to become parents. On its face, we\u2019re pronatalist, but in actuality, a very antinatalist society. Those conflicting forces, I feel like, play a lot into the apprehension that people face, because there\u2019s this pressure to achieve this status symbol of parenthood, but none of the support there to help people, especially young people.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> Now, Jordan, just to bring myself forward a little in the conversation, and at a certain point I\u2019m going to ask you too to bring yourself forward\u2014although I heard you interviewed, and someone was asking more about your own personal journey with this topic, and you said, \u201cLook, the book has 100,000 words, and only 1,000 of them are about me.\u201d But people like to know the person.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

But here, we\u2019ll start with me here. I\u2019m 60, and I\u2019m happy to say I\u2019m \u201cchild-free.\u201d First of all, I really liked your introduction of that term. I had never heard it before, so I\u2019d only heard of being \u201cchildless.\u201d I noticed saying loud and proud that I\u2019m child-free sounds a lot better. One of the gifts that your book gave me was feeling more settled in that. I think I\u2019d had this thought somehow, I don\u2019t know, \u201cHow much am I missing? How much am I missing?\u201d Even though there was nothing in me <\/span>ever<\/span><\/i> that was actually drawn to being a biological mom myself, nothing ever in me\u2014I mean, I don\u2019t want to go too much into my personal story, but it was very clear, I\u2019m not having a kid. I\u2019m not raising a family. That\u2019s not what I\u2019m called to do in my life.<\/span><\/p>\n

But I still have carried this huge grief with me. In reading your book, I thought, \u201cFirst of all, no matter where we end up, we\u2019re missing something. No matter where we end up in our life. If we go left, we didn\u2019t go right. If we go right, we didn\u2019t go left.\u201d I just wonder what you think about that, the grief of no matter what path we take.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Jordan Davidson:<\/b> I think tied to that grief is why so many people have this apprehension, because they\u2019re afraid of regret. I think that the grief has a very similar tie to regret in that people who are on the fence\u2014I think more people know where they want to land, but they\u2019re afraid that if they have children, they will miss the life that they had previously. And if they don\u2019t have children, they may regret that they didn\u2019t have children. It\u2019s really hard to put those feelings aside, because at the end of the day, I don\u2019t think it\u2019s possible to 100 percent feel decided. I think even the most decided person would maybe feel 99 percent decided and have an inkling in their brain or a small question of, \u201cWhat would my life have looked like if I had children?\u201d And so I think that that grief is just natural human curiosity of wondering what would\u2019ve happened if you had chosen the other thing, even if you feel happy with the decision that you made.<\/span><\/p>\n

But I think that that\u2019s why so many people are afraid to decide, because that pressure of knowing that at a certain point… It\u2019s not like you can be in your 60s or in your 70s and then say, \u201cYou know what? Now I\u2019m going to have kids.\u201d I mean, in some cases, yes, you can adopt or foster, but it\u2019s incredibly difficult. Those things are not as easy as people like to say that they are. Of course, we\u2019re all limited by our own biology. And so I think, because at some point the decision is definitive, and there are very few decisions in life which are definitive\u2014you can get married later in life, you can go back to school later in life, you can buy a house with enough hard work and earning enough money\u2014but you can\u2019t undo biology later in life. And yes, maybe you can adopt\u2014it\u2019s challenging\u2014or foster, but I think that that\u2019s the apprehension that people face, is knowing that they have to make a definitive decision and one that they can\u2019t take back. But I think it\u2019s natural human curiosity to wonder, even if you are happy with your decision.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> This notion that this is the biggest decision you\u2019ll ever make in your life\u2014so I\u2019m going to agree with you. I think it is. I really do. Thank you for just pointing that out in the book and naming it.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

One of the questions I have for you is how, after everything you\u2019ve learned from your research, can people get clear on the decision that\u2019s coming from inside them instead of, as you mentioned, the pronatal forces of our culture, obligation, they think \u201cI have to provide grandchildren\u201d or \u201cThis is how I\u2019m going to be respected and have status in the world\u201d or the myth, and you pointed out as a myth, that \u201cI\u2019m going to have children who will take care of me when I\u2019m old.\u201d How do you get rid of all the nonsense to tune in to actually, \u201cThis is the biggest decision\u2019s going to come from my heart and soul\u201d?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Jordan Davidson:<\/b> Mm-hmm. Well, I think part of the reason that I say it\u2019s the biggest decision is because you\u2019re making a decision also for another person. It\u2019s not just a decision that you are making for yourself. If you decide to have children, you are bringing another person into this world, and you will be tasked for caring for them for at least 17, 18 years. And so it\u2019s making a commitment for another person. It\u2019s holding yourself accountable to take care of another person. And so, I think that when it comes to quieting out all of those other messages and not listening to your parents asking when are they getting another grandchild or feeling like being a mother is the be- and end-all, it\u2019s really asking that, is this what you see for your life? Is this something that you feel that you want to do with your life, because you know, in some regard, what the next 18 years will look like? And do you feel that you can be there for another person who needs you?<\/span><\/p>\n

I think that that\u2019s one of the biggest things. And that\u2019s really what the research shows in whether or not people are happy with the decision to become parents, is if you fully understand what you are committing to. When researchers in surveys ask people why they wanted to become parents, they tend to name very lighthearted things like the expansion of the self, feeling a greater connection through passing down your DNA, joy, and entertainment and things like having kids is fun. All of the fun things, that\u2019s what draws people to parenthood. No one ever says they want to become a parent because they want to change diapers and do childcare and work a nine-hour day and then come home and make dinner.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so, really, when it comes down to will you be happy with choosing parenthood, it\u2019s asking, \u201cDo you have a realistic expectation of what parenthood entails?\u201d If you have that realistic expectation, knowing all of the challenges that come with raising kids and the demands of parenthood and how challenging it is, especially in modern times, and you want to have kids, then you\u2019ll probably be prepared for them and you are less likely to experience regret. Similarly, if you look at your life and you feel happy and you don\u2019t feel that things need to change, then you\u2019ll probably be happy with your decision not to have children. I think this is pretty much the way that the researchers wrote the paper, and I found it funny as I was reading the paper because I thought, \u201cThis isn\u2019t really helpful: if you can picture it, then you might be happy.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

But I think that that is the key challenge for people, is that you have to make the decision that is best for you, and you have to tune out all of the other voices, and you have to look at your life and how your life would change and understanding the demands of parenthood and not the fun things of, \u201cWhat color am I going to paint the nursery?\u201d or \u201cWhat would we do for the gender reveal?\u201d I feel like social media always paints parenthood and all of the fun things, and so people think, \u201cIt would be so cute to have a baby.\u201d That was really something that struck me in the interviews that I did with people who were parents, were how many people said they didn\u2019t realize it was going to be so difficult. I feel like maybe because I spoke to so many parents that I\u2019m under no illusion of how difficult parenthood is. I\u2019m like, \u201cYeah, that sounds really tough.\u201d And so making a decision that is best for you really requires tuning out all of the noise and thinking about what do you want for your life and whether bringing another life into the world is something that seems enticing, that makes you feel excited.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> When you say having realistic expectations for what\u2019s going to happen as a parent, in <\/span>So When Are You Having Kids<\/span><\/i>, you lay out, \u201cThis is how much it costs on average.\u201d You lay out all the sacrifice that\u2019s involved. What do you think are the most \u201creality sandwiches\u201d people need to chew on a bit to really get a clear picture of what\u2019s going to be involved?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Jordan Davidson:<\/b> The biggest one, which is hard to quantify, is the loss of one\u2019s self. I was speaking to someone the other day, and they said, \u201cYou don\u2019t really realize how much your life changes when you have children. I still want to be seen as the person who I was before I had kids, but now I have all of these responsibilities. I\u2019m not that person anymore. There\u2019s parts of that person that are still there, but now I\u2019m so-and-so\u2019s mom, and that becomes your primary identity.\u201d And so I think that that\u2019s one of the realities of parenthood that can be hard for people to understand is that your needs become secondary to your child. And so a lot of your personality and your time and your energy and your resources, financial and even energy resources, get devoted to your child. But the things of not feeling like yourself, because you don\u2019t have the time that you used to have\u2014because any free time, if you are working especially, goes into your children.<\/span><\/p>\n

I think that that\u2019s really hard to imagine until you\u2019re there. One of the things that I have in the book is a schedule of what newborn feeding looks like. And so, every two hours you\u2019re doing a feeding. You can read that and say like, \u201cWow, that seems like a lot.\u201d But obviously, you\u2019re caring for a child beyond just the newborn phase, and you don\u2019t realize how much attention and care and making sure that your child is occupied and has things to do. Now parents are worried about screen time. And so, all of the little tiny tasks that go into keeping another human occupied that takes away from the time that you have for yourself, for your partner, and it\u2019s a huge commitment. And so going into that and deciding to have children is deciding to become secondary.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> Now, I mentioned that I was going to bring myself forward, and I did a little. I have to say, it was that section related to the feeding chart where I had a huge sigh of relief there. I couldn\u2019t imagine that. But back here to you for a moment. I wonder, Jordan, if you\u2019d be willing to share a little bit about your own journey around this question. So you want to have kids?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Jordan Davidson:<\/b> Sure. When I was 24, my period had stopped. I wasn\u2019t really concerned about it at first. I went to the doctor, and she wasn\u2019t very concerned about it at first either. And then she had me come back a month later and did some more blood tests, did some tests, and then about a week after that she called me, and she said to me, she goes, \u201cDo you want to have kids?\u201d \u201cI don\u2019t know. I am 24.\u201d I lived in New York City at the time, and in New York City, having children at 24 is akin to being a child bride, because most people there have children in their late 30s or early 40s. So I really wasn\u2019t thinking about having children at 24. I was still paying off student loan debt. I lived in a fifth-floor walkup. She said to me, she\u2019s like, \u201cWell, if you think you want kids, you should probably have them now.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

My first thought was, really, how was I going to carry a baby carrier up a fifth-floor walkup? Because I could barely get my groceries up into my fifth-floor walkup. That was really the first thought, I was like, \u201cCrap, crap. How am I carrying a baby up all these stairs?\u201d She gave me the numbers for a bunch of fertility clinics, and that kick-started a lot of testing and apprehension and thinking about it. I think I always wanted kids, because I don\u2019t think another option was present really. I didn\u2019t really think about being child-free. I have a lot of child-free aunts and uncles in my family, so it wasn\u2019t like in my family everyone has children. That pressure wasn\u2019t put on. I just never really thought about, \u201cWell, what if you don\u2019t have kids?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Living in New York City, I envisioned a very cosmopolitan version of myself, like <\/span>Sex and the City<\/span><\/i>, sitting around brunch with my friends and never having children. I always felt like I was trying to put myself as a character into a bunch of different stories. There was the Jordan as the character as the mother, the Jordan as the character at the boozy brunch in her 40s, and nothing that actually felt like what I wanted. It was just a bunch of roles that I could see myself playing. And so, given this kind of ultimatum by my doctor of like, \u201cWell, if you want to, decide now.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

The thing that was clear to me was that I was not ready at 24. I\u2019m 31 now, and I still don\u2019t have children, although I have tried to have children. There is some regret around now having such a hard time. There is some regret around maybe I should have tried when I was 24. But also, I laugh when I think about that, not only for the reason of carrying the child five flights of stairs, but because I would\u2019ve been a terrible mother at 24. I think I would be a great mother now, now having written this book and thought about this topic as much as I have. I feel prepared, and I would like to become a parent. My biology and I seem to have disagreement there. But it is still something I ask myself frequently, even as I\u2019m at an IVF clinic and doing that and it is soul-sucking and horrible and I hate every second of it. Sometimes I think, \u201cWhat if I just say I\u2019m done, and then that\u2019s it. Could I see a life for myself without children?\u201d And the answer is yes. And could I see a life for myself with children? And the answer is yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

I keep telling myself that I will know when the time is right to stop, and I haven\u2019t gotten there yet. But it is challenging. I think that if I end up never having children, I think I\u2019ll be fine. And if I have children, I think I\u2019ll be a great mom. It\u2019s hard to sit in between those two worlds and feel powerless, because the decision isn\u2019t really something that I have much control over, which I feel like is so much part of the reason why I wanted to create this book, was because I wanted people to feel empowered in ways that I can\u2019t, in ways that I won\u2019t get to choose for myself.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> You used this phrase, \u201cMy biology and I have a disagreement about what we want right now.\u201d It\u2019s a powerful phrase, and it does seem that infertility and challenges with fertility are on the rise in the past decade. Why is that? What\u2019s happening?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Jordan Davidson:<\/b> It\u2019s kind of a complicated relationship, because I think a lot of the times when we hear about IVF or fertility treatments, it is in older women. The older you get, the worse your egg quality is, which necessitates some need of fertility treatments. And so because people are putting off children and having children later in life, we are seeing an uptick in people looking at assisted reproductive technology. So that\u2019s part of it, is people are delaying having children.<\/span><\/p>\n

I think also we are getting better at identifying reproductive conditions like PCOS, polycystic ovarian syndrome, endometriosis. I have endometriosis. I was diagnosed when I was 12. Actually, I think\u2014I had a lot of surgeries for it in my teens, and I think that that\u2019s part of the reason that my ovaries are in such a rough shape is from all of those surgeries. And so, because we are getting better at identifying things and earlier, a lot of the times when doctors hear that you have a condition like PCOS or endometriosis or fibroids, there is this push of, \u201cGet pregnant now or go see a reproductive endocrinologist or go seek out fertility treatments earlier.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

In the past, I mean, when I was first diagnosed with endometriosis, no one even knew what that was, and now thanks in part to a lot of celebrities coming out and saying they have endometriosis, a lot of people have heard the phrase. So because people are more aware of reproductive health conditions, they are seeking care for them earlier. I don\u2019t know that necessarily endometriosis and fibroids and PCOS are becoming more common. I think it\u2019s just that we have better awareness of them. And so we are diagnosing things earlier, and so more people are getting help.<\/span><\/p>\n

One of the things that came up when I was researching the book was, in the past when you had people who were childless… So there\u2019s the difference of the two terms. The \u201cchild-free\u201d usually connotes people who made the choice, and \u201cchildless\u201d is people for whom the choice was made for them. Prior to the \u201970s and the \u201980s, everyone was called \u201cchildless.\u201d And then they started differentiating between childless and child-free. There are more people now using the terms \u201cchild-free by choice\u201d and then \u201cchild-free by circumstance,\u201d which is the newer version of \u201cchildless,\u201d because I think a lot of people don\u2019t like the old connotation associated with childlessness, which is kind of sad. It\u2019s like sad, this person, the spinster type, the myth associated with that.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so a lot of people\u2014in the past there was\u2014you didn\u2019t talk about why people didn\u2019t have children. People would say like, \u201cOh, the aunt who never had kids\u201d or \u201cThe couple who lived down the block and never had children.\u201d There was always an assumption in the past that people who didn\u2019t have children <\/span>couldn\u2019t<\/span><\/i> have children. And so, I think it\u2019s hard to know whether or not the challenges that we\u2019re seeing now are accurately representative of increased fertility issues, because of, who knows, modern society, we\u2019re all probably like 50 percent plastic at this point.<\/span><\/p>\n

Or is it really just that now people are opening up and saying, \u201cNo, I\u2019m not just the aunt who doesn\u2019t have kids. I\u2019m the aunt who tried to have kids and couldn\u2019t.\u201d I think people are a lot more open now than they were in the past about why they aren\u2019t having children, whether they\u2019re proudly child-free or struggling to build their family. But I think in the past it was quiet. It was kind of a thing that you might have perceived but you didn\u2019t talk about.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> It does seem like there\u2019s still a stigma when it comes to talking about infertility challenges, and somehow you\u2019re coming out in a certain way. There\u2019s a shame potentially associated with it, and I\u2019m curious how you view that.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Jordan Davidson:<\/b> It\u2019s interesting, because I feel like social media has really changed things. I see a lot of infertility communities online. I have really spent a lot of time for the book studying a lot of different communities, parenting communities, infertility communities, child-free communities, and they all have a very strong sense of identity. There\u2019s a whole language of infertility. If you are on these boards or these forums, it\u2019s almost like you have to speak another language. You\u2019re like, \u201cIt\u2019s five days post-transfer,\u201d and all of these different terms that you learn. I am very quiet personally online about my own challenges, in part because that\u2019s who I am as a person and also because it is disappointing. It\u2019s disappointing to go through multiple IVF cycles and to not have a child. I don\u2019t want to have the Internet on my own personal hellish roller-coaster.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

And so I think that there are people who don\u2019t share or who feel that it is stigmatizing to share, because they don\u2019t want to share the bad news. And so a lot of times what I see in the infertility community is people see the community, and the community is very vibrant, and they do all of these posts, and they have their letter board of, \u201cI\u2019m doing my embryo transfer,\u201d and then it fails. And then you kind of see people fall off as the disappointment grows, because you didn\u2019t do IVF and then you get to go home with a baby. And so, I think that it is challenging for people. A lot of people will create pages and not share with their family, and they\u2019ll have online personas because they want to talk about these things. But I think, in part, it feels embarrassing.<\/span><\/p>\n

It feels embarrassing to not be able to do something that we consider a basic biological function. And so it can be difficult to say that you need help. There is definitely in the infertility community women far outnumber the men. When I was trying to find men with infertility for the book, it was a very big challenge. Men did not want to talk openly. When I did interview men, they asked that I change their names or they wouldn\u2019t use a last name, and that wasn\u2019t the case for women, because there is so much stigma around. For men, it\u2019s not being seen as masculine. For women, it\u2019s not fulfilling this purpose as a mother. But it is that you can\u2019t do what feels like a very basic biological function. I think so many people, in their health education growing up, they hear, \u201cIf someone of the opposite sex looks at you the wrong way, you\u2019ll get pregnant.\u201d And now you\u2019re at this point where you want to get pregnant and you\u2019re doing all of these things and you can\u2019t get pregnant.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so I think that it\u2019s part frustrating and part humiliating in so many ways. I know personally I have been so frustrated and seen people\u2014I\u2019ve had people not know of things that I\u2019m going through, and they\u2019ll be like, \u201cOh yeah, it took so long for us to get pregnant.\u201d And I\u2019m like, \u201cReally? How long?\u201d And they\u2019re like, \u201cOh, five months.\u201d \u201cOK, oh, five months is not that long.\u201d But challenges are different for people, and it can feel difficult to talk about because people see it as a personal failure. I think that that\u2019s why I like to say that my biology and I are not agreeing on this topic, because I could write a book on the topic, I could nanny a million children, I could do all of these things to prepare myself for parenthood. And at the end of the day, if my ovaries don\u2019t want to produce a viable egg, then that\u2019s it. There\u2019s nothing that I can do.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so, for people, I think that that\u2019s hard to admit. It feels deeply upsetting, because it feels like your life is being chosen for you, and it feels like you can\u2019t do a very basic biological thing. That kind of, to go back to the beginning of all of this, goes back to the idea of pronatalism and that we say that being parents\u2014and pressures from religion and society of, \u201cThat\u2019s what we\u2019re here to do. We\u2019re here to reproduce and put out the next generation.\u201d And when you can\u2019t do it, it feels personal. It feels personal. \u201cWhy not me? What did I do wrong?\u201d I like to make jokes about \u201cWho did I piss off in an alternate life?\u201d in the days where I\u2019m feeling really annoyed about what\u2019s going on with my body. So it\u2019s hard to talk about, because you feel less than everyone else.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> What could someone say, or how could someone hold a loving space for someone who\u2019s in the middle of an infertility challenge? You mentioned one thing that I heard on a video of yours that someone said to you something like, \u201cWell, you can just adopt.\u201d And you were like, \u201cLook, adoption isn\u2019t a cure for infertility.\u201d I can imagine lots of people saying that to someone thinking they\u2019re being comforting but actually pissing the person off every which way because that\u2019s not what is in their heart. Anyway, maybe you could talk about that, but what could people say that would be healing, beneficial, warming?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Jordan Davidson:<\/b> I think it\u2019s so individual, because I\u2019m trying to think of what are the things. I personally like space. I think I have some friends and some family members who would ask and be like, \u201cHow was your appointment?\u201d And there are a few friends that stay along in that journey for me, but I get so tired of telling people bad news, and so I think one of the best things to do is to give people the space and let them come to you or even just preempting it with a, \u201cI\u2019m not not asking because I\u2019m disinterested. I\u2019m trying to give you space. I\u2019m here for you and I want to talk and I want to help out in any way that I can, but I also don\u2019t want you to feel pressure.\u201d Because that goes back to this idea of feeling like a disappointment, is then disappointing other people, especially if it\u2019s parents who want grandkids.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so I think just giving the person space and really listening to what they\u2019re telling you that they need. I mean, if you know someone who\u2019s going through fertility treatments, they are taxing. They\u2019re expensive. You are taking different hormones and medications, and that changes\u2014and so really extending the person grace and being there for them and being a distraction. That\u2019s honestly the best thing, for me, that someone could do, is distracting me from it. I don\u2019t want to talk about it. That\u2019s the challenge, I think for me personally, is friends will know that I withdraw when I\u2019m going through something difficult. They\u2019ll be like, \u201cWell, I\u2019m here if you want to talk.\u201d I do not want to talk. That is the last thing I want to do. But if you want to go out and do something, or go and get dinner and tell me about the challenges that you\u2019re having with the dating apps, I would love to listen. But talk about myself, no thank you.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so really listening and not trying to problem-solve; it\u2019s just about listening. So to go back to your comment, when I was first having challenges, a lot of people said to me, \u201cWell, why don\u2019t you just adopt?\u201d or \u201cYou can adopt.\u201d Like it is so easy. That\u2019s really one of the things that I wanted to communicate in the book. I have the adoption chapter is child led, because typically you just hear from the adults. And really, when you dig into the adoption community, the adoption chapter was the hardest chapter of the book to write, because it is so difficult to talk about, because there are people who really want to have children. Either they can\u2019t because of infertility, or they can\u2019t because they\u2019re in a same-sex relationship. And so it is very difficult to tell people who have a strong desire for children, \u201cWell, if you can\u2019t have them on your own, then you can\u2019t have them.\u201d I think a lot of people who do work to really discuss the injustices around the child welfare system don\u2019t always know how to communicate it to the adults that are really hurting or longing for a child.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so when I was writing that chapter, I wanted to try and do justice to both communities. Because the truth of adoption is this, is that people view it as children for adults, but it\u2019s really about finding parents for a child. The child has to be the center of the unit there. It can\u2019t be like, \u201cOh, here are two lovely people who want a child. Let\u2019s just give them this child.\u201d And that\u2019s how when you say, \u201cOh, you can just adopt,\u201d it\u2019s like you could just pick up a child at Costco and now it\u2019s yours. It doesn\u2019t work like that. A lot of people who want children want babies. And that\u2019s fine. It\u2019s fine to say that you want a baby. When people have children naturally, they get a baby. It\u2019s fine to say you also want a baby, but the waiting list for adopting an infant is 80\u2013100 people waiting per infant. So the competition there is super fierce.<\/span><\/p>\n

And then there are 400 children in foster care, and not all of those children are approved for adoption. Some of them will be reunified with their family; some of them are approved for adoption. The average age of a child in foster care is eight, so you\u2019re not getting a baby; you\u2019re getting a child with a history and a history of trauma. And that\u2019s not fair to someone who wants what other people want. We consider it normal to say, \u201cOK, me and my husband, me and my partner, we\u2019re going to have a baby.\u201d And if you can do that in the privacy of your own bedroom, no one questions it. But for people who can\u2019t and then they\u2019re like, \u201cWell, I want a baby,\u201d and it\u2019s like, \u201cWell, there\u2019s all these children in foster care, why don\u2019t you adopt someone from foster care?\u201d It\u2019s not the same type of parenting. You\u2019re not getting a child who is a blank slate. And so you\u2019re asking people to be these really self-aware, prepared parents to bring a child with a history of trauma into their home.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

And that\u2019s not fair. I was saying that maybe at baby showers or things like that then we should ask people, \u201cWhy aren\u2019t you adopting?\u201d Can you imagine going to a baby shower and saying like, \u201cOh, you had a baby? How selfish. Why didn\u2019t you adopt?\u201d That\u2019s a lot of what people facing fertility challenges feel, is that they have this pressure to be these humans that are expected to do all of these things when these systems are not easy.<\/span><\/p>\n

A baby born through your own DNA is not the same as adopting a child. That child has a whole history, and you can\u2019t just override it because you want to. And so it\u2019s very naive to suggest that as an option for couples dealing with infertility. It\u2019s upsetting not only for the couple dealing with infertility, but it\u2019s upsetting for the child too. Because if you are going to adopt or you are going to foster, you should do that because you want to, because you want to be a parent for a child who needs parents in that instance. And also, talking about supporting reunification and all of the systems that are broken in the child welfare system, I mean, we could be here for the next four hours talking about all of those challenges, but it\u2019s not a replacement. You can\u2019t just say, \u201cOh, if I don\u2019t have kids through my own biology, then I\u2019m just going to go to the store and get a baby.\u201d It\u2019s not that easy, and that\u2019s how people phrase it, so it\u2019s not helpful.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> One of the things, Jordan, that surprised me was that you dedicated a section of the book to one of the reasons people are choosing not to have children today has to do with their concerns about climate change. I thought to myself, \u201cReally? Is that a real reason people don\u2019t have children?\u201d But you heard it reported as a real reason. People don\u2019t think, \u201cI\u2019m going to bring children in, and they\u2019re going to be the scientists who are going to come up with the solutions. They\u2019re going to create the carbon-absorbing buildings of the future.\u201d They think, \u201cNo, I don\u2019t want to have my kids face this terrible world.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Jordan Davidson:<\/b> The researcher who I interviewed for that section, who is a climate scientist, he had a sense of optimism seeing the work that is being done to try and curb global warming. I think his optimism is part of what prompted his decision to have a child in the face of climate change. As you were saying that, I was like, \u201cOh, he\u2019s maybe someone who thinks his child will be the scientist to further his father\u2019s legacy and fight against climate change.\u201d But I think that it\u2019s especially common in young people, usually college educated or higher graduate degrees, people who are looking at the science and seeing that we are failing some of the milestones or not hitting where we\u2019re supposed to be projected in terms of curbing climate change, and then living through it.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

I interviewed someone for the book, and this didn\u2019t make it in the book, but she was on the fence about having children, and part of that reason was climate change. It had only really hit her recently when there was a heat wave in her area, which never had heat waves. And so a lot of times when people hear of global warming or, \u201cIf we don\u2019t do this by 2050, then by 2100\u2026\u201d And that sounds so far away. I keep seeing all these jokes when people are like, \u201c1980 was 20 years ago. What do you mean it was 40 years ago?,\u201d where we have our own perceptions of time based on our childhoods, where time, I think, we think goes by much slower than it actually does.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so people hear, \u201cOh, if we don\u2019t make change, things will get bad by 2050.\u201d Who can picture 2050? But then when these heat waves or weather anomalies we just had\u2014I can\u2019t remember the name of it now\u2014but the temperatures were in the single digits, and they said it\u2019s a once-in-a-generation-type storm. Well, I feel like every other week now we\u2019re having these weather anomalies. And so people are thinking about it and saying, \u201cWow, OK, it\u2019s not even 2050 yet. It\u2019s not even 2100 yet. How am I supposed to brave these temperatures?\u201d Or fires for people in California, especially, it was like, \u201cHow am I supposed to evacuate my home?\u201d The person that that chapter is centered around lives in California, and that was one of the things that he shared with me was, \u201cHow am I supposed to evacuate my home in the case of wildfires with a baby? That seems horrible.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

And so I think young people in the face of so much uncertainty\u2014especially around the state of the world, not just the climate but the general state of the world\u2014are really thinking about what their children\u2019s futures are going to look like and saying, \u201cWow, if the weather is already bad and I\u2019m in my 30s\u2026 if the weather is already this bad, what\u2019s it going to look like when my child is 18? Is that fair?\u201d Because people really just want to give their children as good of a life or better than theirs. I think a lot of young people don\u2019t feel like they can give their child as good of a life or better than theirs.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> And that would therefore be a reason not to have kids\u2014<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Jordan Davidson:<\/b> Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> \u2014for some people.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Jordan Davidson:<\/b> Mm-hmm.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> I think I hadn\u2019t really processed that, that would actually be what would tip the scale for some people.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Jordan Davidson:<\/b> I think it\u2019s one. There were some people where climate was a leading factor. There\u2019s very few people who are like, \u201cI\u2019m not going to have children for this one reason.\u201d There\u2019s not one particular reason. It\u2019s usually a bunch of little reasons. And for some people, thinking about climate change was maybe in the top 10, and for other people it was in the top three. I\u2019d say there were very few people that would\u2019ve cited it as the number one reason, but I would say it makes it into the top three to five for quite a few people.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> This whole notion of I\u2019m going to have my sheet with my pros over here on the left side and my cons on the right side, and that\u2019s how I\u2019m going to make this really important decision, seems to me, and maybe it\u2019s just based on my own experience, that there\u2019s something else that\u2019s like a sense of… I don\u2019t know what other word to use, but whether I\u2019m \u201ccalled\u201d or not. Like if I met my children on the astral plane or something like that\u2014this is just me, Tami, speaking\u2014and they said, \u201cHi, Mom, we\u2019re here,\u201d I\u2019d be like, \u201cI have to do it.\u201d But instead I had the opposite experience where every time I tried to visualize myself as pregnant, it was like, \u201cNo way. Done. Flat belly. No way.\u201d And that there\u2019s some other kind of process inside of us, like the dreaming part of us, that it doesn\u2019t so much look at our spreadsheet, but it\u2019s our inner dream. I wonder what you think about that.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Jordan Davidson:<\/b> Pros and cons lists really are not the way to go, because, I think, when people try and do the positives and the negatives, they\u2019re always really imbalanced. So if you look at a pros and cons list and you\u2019re like, \u201cI\u2019ve got five things in the pros and four things in the cons, so I guess I\u2019ll go with the pros,\u201d a lot of times the pros are things like I get to name the baby, I can pick a cute name, and then the cons are like, but raising a child costs $300,000. Those aren\u2019t equal. The cuteness of a baby doesn\u2019t equal out the cons of the commitment. And so you can\u2019t use a pros and cons list, because you would have to weight your pros and cons list. I\u2019m sure that there are researchers that could come up with a system to help people weight it, but I don\u2019t think that that\u2019s going to answer the question either.<\/span><\/p>\n

I do think a lot of it comes down to visualizing, but there are people who are just not good at visualizing. I can envision myself playing many characters and many different roles, but I don\u2019t know that they ever feel organic to me. It was like when I was looking at colleges, I had all these friends who were like, \u201cI went to this college, and I knew. I saw myself on this campus.\u201d And so I went to 15 different schools, and I was waiting for that moment where I went onto the school and I was like, \u201cHere\u2019s where I\u2019m…\u201d And that never happened for me.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so, I think that for people, some people just can\u2019t picture or get excited about any sort of thing. It\u2019s really easy to envision a child-free life, because if you don\u2019t have children, that\u2019s the life that you\u2019re living. And it\u2019s very difficult to envision a life with children because there isn\u2019t really anything that can prepare you for that. I hear a lot of people going, \u201cOh, babysit. You\u2019re so excited to give the kids over at the end of the night because they\u2019re not your children.\u201d It has a sense of novelty. It\u2019s very hard to prepare for parenthood. So if you\u2019re someone who can\u2019t envision that, you\u2019re someone that\u2014there were a lot of people that I spoke to who were waiting for this gut feeling. I\u2019ve heard from people like, \u201cOh, I always knew I wanted to have children. I felt it in my gut.\u201d And then you have people say, \u201cI don\u2019t feel anything in my gut. Does that mean I don\u2019t want children?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

I think it\u2019s just because it\u2019s so hard to envision what a life with children can look like, because you think of all the things like the runny noses and the sticky hands and the screaming and the toys and having to monitor screen time that you can\u2019t really envision the things that parents, or especially parents that I spoke to, of \u201cOh, I know true love now\u201d or \u201cThis feeling when my child smiles at me, my heart feels like it\u2019s going to tear out of my chest.\u201d How do you replicate that feeling, and does that feeling make up for all of the challenges? For some people it might, but for others it might not.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so I think one of the best things that you can do is try to pretend like it\u2019s happening, so reading a book like mine or other parenting books, taking parenting courses. A lot of things I took when I was writing the book. I took a birthing class. I wasn\u2019t having a child at the time, but I sat there. It felt uncomfortable because the tone of the course was like, \u201cYou got this, mama,\u201d and I was like\u2026 But immersing yourself in things, going to the store and walking through the baby aisles, or joining a parenting community or taking classes, taking an infant CPR class, doing all of these things that people assume that you can\u2019t do it until you get pregnant or you\u2019re in those places. And that\u2019s really not the case. You can be there because you want to learn. Or talking to, if you have a partner and you are planning on having a child with this partner, asking yourself the difficult questions of, \u201cHow would we discipline our child? How were you raised? What do you like about the way you were raised?\u201d and really trying to put forward all of those scenarios that you would face as a parent.<\/span><\/p>\n

And then the last thing, which is one of the examples that\u2019s highlighted in the book, which I stand by, and I think people will have opinions about this, but foster, foster an animal. Don\u2019t foster a child to test out parenthood, because children need consistent love and care and that\u2019s a huge commitment. But foster a cat or a dog. A puppy would be really great if you want to try and mimic the challenges of having a baby. But that is doing things where you are on the hook 24\/7 for another being that needs your help and seeing how you and your partner would work together in that instance. I think that\u2019s one of the best things that you can do. And that\u2019s an example in the book of this couple who adopted a puppy and that was what made them decide to be child-free, was how much work went into raising that puppy and realizing that they didn\u2019t want kids.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> I have to say, Jordan, for someone who\u2019s just 31 years old, I\u2019m so impressed by you, impressed by how you approach these complicated topics and really pull out all of the individual strands, the nuance. If I knew anyone, and I\u2019m sure I do, who is considering, \u201cShould I have kids, or should I not have kids?\u201d this is the book I will choose to give them, <\/span>So When Are You Having Kids: The Definitive Guide for Those Who Aren\u2019t Sure If, When, or How They Want to Become Parents<\/span><\/i>.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

You mentioned in the beginning of our conversation this is the book that didn\u2019t exist that you wished existed. You wrote the book that you wished was there on the shelf for you. What\u2019s your hope for what people will get out of <\/span>So When Are You Having Kids<\/span><\/i>? What do you hope they\u2019ll get out of the book?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Jordan Davidson:<\/b> I want people to understand why they feel the way that they do. The book is really a tool to help you unpack. There\u2019s everything from the fear of pregnancy to people who have a history of trauma, intergenerational trauma, and how that gets passed on to children. There are so many things that shape the decision why we want to have children or not have children, and so many things that we\u2019re just not conscious of. And so writing the book was so helpful for me, because I said earlier I was not ready to have children, I would\u2019ve been a terrible mother at 24, and I think I would be a great mother at 31, and so much of that is the work that I put into that book in really trying to understand how I feel.<\/span><\/p>\n

You had made the comment about the interview that I did where I said the book isn\u2019t about me, because it\u2019s 100,000 words, and I maybe appear in 1,000 of them. I wanted to capture so many things and so many apprehensions. There were so many stories from so many different people about their fears and their desires and their hopes and their dreams and what they want from their life. And so what I hope that this book can do for people is help them figure out what they want for their life. It doesn\u2019t have to be forever. That\u2019s the thing about deciding intentions, is they can change. Unfortunately, there is often a point in which we have to decide by for the means of biology, but factors can change and things can be fluid. And so, so many times you feel this pressure to decide and to make a decision, but I think there\u2019s also a beauty in not deciding and being content with the right now and agreeing to revisit that decision down the road and just trying to keep the anxiety at bay and to say, \u201cYou know what? I don\u2019t know if I want to have kids, but I know I don\u2019t want them right now\u201d or \u201cI\u2019m not prepared right now and I\u2019m going to revisit that,\u201d and to try and take away some of the anxiety that people feel because we feel like we always need to know the answer.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so I think that untangling all of these topics, all of these things from the history, from the history of society, from the history of your family, from your own biology, and really sitting and taking the time not to create a pros and cons list, but to do the work of, \u201cWhat have I been taught about having children? What have I been taught about what it means to be a successful adult? What have I been taught about what makes a good life? And do I have realistic expectations of what parenthood entails and what it would take for me to be a good parent?\u201d and then figuring out if underneath all of those messages that you have been fed, if you can figure out how you actually feel. And looking at your life the way that it is now and saying, \u201cAre you satisfied? Or do you feel like there could be something more, and that that something more is that you want to take on this caregiving journey?\u201d Which yes, will have rewards. And might have joys that you can\u2019t feel until the sticky-faced child is smiling at you. But also knowing that your life can also be great, and <\/span>will<\/span><\/i> also be great, even if there isn\u2019t a child in it, and that they don\u2019t have to be in conflict with one another, that you can take the time to make the choice that works best for you.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> I\u2019ve been speaking with Jordan Davidson, author of the new book <\/span>So When Are You Having Kids: The Definitive Guide for Those Who Aren\u2019t Sure If, When, or How They Want to Become Parents<\/span><\/i>. If you\u2019d like to watch <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i> on video and participate in after-the-show Q&A conversations with featured presenters and have the chance to ask your questions, come join us on Sounds True One, a new membership community that features premium shows, live classes, and community events. Let\u2019s learn and grow together. Come join us at join.soundstrue.com. Sounds True: waking up the world.<\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"template":"","meta":{"_expiration-date-status":"","_expiration-date":0,"_expiration-date-type":"","_expiration-date-categories":[],"_expiration-date-options":[]},"class_list":["post-19917","transcript","type-transcript","status-publish","hentry"],"yoast_head":"\nSo When Are You Having Kids - Transcript | Sounds True<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with So When Are You Having Kids. 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