{"id":20137,"date":"2023-05-18T16:03:11","date_gmt":"2023-05-18T22:03:11","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?post_type=transcript&p=20137"},"modified":"2023-05-18T16:03:11","modified_gmt":"2023-05-18T22:03:11","slug":"in-each-others-care","status":"publish","type":"transcript","link":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/in-each-others-care\/","title":{"rendered":"In Each Other’s Care"},"content":{"rendered":"
\"image_print\"Print Transcript<\/span><\/a><\/div>

Tami Simon: <\/b>Hello friends. My name\u2019s Tami Simon and I\u2019m the founder of Sounds True. I want to welcome you to the Sounds True podcast: <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>. I also want to take a moment to introduce you to Sounds True\u2019s new membership community and digital platform. It\u2019s called Sounds True One. Sounds True One features original, premium, transformational docuseries, community events, classes to start your day and relax in the evening, and special weekly live shows, including a video version of <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>, with an after-show community question-and-answer session with featured guests. I hope you\u2019ll come join us, explore, come have fun with us and connect with others. You can learn more at join.soundstrue.com.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

I also want to take a moment and introduce you to the Sounds True Foundation, our nonprofit that creates equitable access to transformational tools and teachings. You can learn more at soundstruefoundation.org and, in advance, thank you for your support.<\/span><\/p>\n

In this episode of <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>, my guest is Stan Tatkin. Stan is a teacher, clinician, researcher, and developer of the psychobiological approach to couples\u2019 therapy known as PACT. He\u2019s beloved by colleagues, his friends at Sounds True, and clients alike. Renowned as an expert on human behavior and couple relationships, he\u2019s known as a therapist\u2019s therapist and has trained thousands of therapists around the world. He\u2019s the author of six bestselling books, including <\/span>Wired for Love<\/span><\/i> and <\/span>Wired for Dating<\/span><\/i>, <\/span>We Do<\/span><\/i>, and a new book from Sounds True. It\u2019s called <\/span>In Each Other\u2019s Care: A Guide to the Most Common Relationship Conflicts and How to Work Through Them<\/span><\/i>. Stan, welcome.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Stan Tatkin:<\/b> Hey, Tami. Thank you. How are you?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I\u2019m great. Thanks for asking. How are you?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ST: <\/b>I\u2019m dandy actually. Really good.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I\u2019m happy to hear that and happy to be with you.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ST: <\/b>Same here.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>One of the themes you emphasized throughout your work is this notion of cultivating secure functioning relationships.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ST: <\/b>Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>What are they? What are the characteristics of a secure functioning relationship?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ST: <\/b>So, secure functioning is not the same as secure attachment, which is a biological matter of bonding. Secure functioning is more along the lines of social contract theory. Basically, if it\u2019s two people, could be three, could be four, right? It doesn\u2019t matter, but if it\u2019s two people, it assumes that they are equals, shared power, shared authority, coming together in a symmetric relationship, unlike childhood, based on terms and conditions\u2014deal or no deal\u2014and also based on the idea that the relationship must always remain fair, just, and mutually sensitive, in a full collaboration\/cooperation even under stress. Simple, but very hard to do.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Tell me why it\u2019s so hard to do.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ST: <\/b>Because we\u2019re human primates and human primates are, by nature, difficult animals. We\u2019re animals. Imagine your two-year-old with all the rights of an adult. That would be a little frightening. Two-year-olds represent the off-the-factory-line human primate, which means that we\u2019re fundamentally, along with other wonderful things, but fundamentally selfish, self-centered, warlike, aggressive, opportunistic, moody, fickle, and xenophobic, and therefore knowing that we have to be civilized with agreements and permission to enforce laws and principles and all sorts of things that allow us to get along with each other. The same goes for a couple. That union, alliance has to be based on agreements and principles. Basically, the couple co-creating a culture from scratch, their own culture.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Let\u2019s make it real for people and use you as an example, and then maybe I\u2019ll talk a little bit about me, but let\u2019s start with you. In terms of embracing secure functioning relationships, what part has been the hardest for you to be like, \u201cOh yeah, I know how to do this in this situation\u201d? What\u2019s been your sort of growth path?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ST: <\/b>Moving from a one-person system to a two-person psychological system for me has been a matter of growth and growing up. It\u2019s been a matter of understanding how these systems work\u2014not how I would like them to work, but how they do actually work\u2014and then also learning to be disciplined by doing the right thing when the right thing is the hardest to do. And that is basically dealing with my own internal three-year-old, my need to be right, my need to have things my way, my need to be understood and cared for without having to do anything. Basically, my personhood as a single person coming out of a family where I was privileged. So, all of that with the responsibilities of being with another person in a team-like situation. And also to be a parent dealing with the raising of a child. So, all of this has challenged me, because I value my relationships to be better, to do better, which is a constant. It\u2019s still happening today. That\u2019s a work in progress.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>This notion of a two-person psychological system. Aren\u2019t I also a one-person psychological system? So, am I both at the same time? If I\u2019m in a committed relationship, like I\u2019m also just me. I have my needs, my things. I don\u2019t want to think about your needs and your things, and it seems like when you describe this secure functioning two-person psychological unit, it\u2019s all we, we, we, we all the time. What about the I?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ST: <\/b>Yeah, what\u2019s interesting too, because our theories and our approaches, our philosophies often track along with the greater culture, the greater society. So, there was a time when <\/span>we<\/span><\/i> and <\/span>us<\/span><\/i> became sort of an anathema in popular psychotherapy with gestalt and humanistic existentialism. Getting away from we to I, Murray Bowen, right? Differentiation\u2014I, me, my, what I feel like\u2014as opposed to this ego mass of fusion or merging. But today we also have gone too far with the idea of independence. Independence as opposed to interdependence, where we are not self-made, where we are not lone wolves, where we are accountable in relationships. We\u2019re pack animals.<\/span><\/p>\n

So, this idea of getting along and being relational is an imperative for society to continue and for relationships to be long-lived and happy. I\u2019m concerned with both of those, happiness and longevity. The we here does not meld people into codependency or dependency. Interdependency is you and I have the same things to gain and the same things to lose. Therefore, we\u2019re equal shareholders and we have to work together as two separate individuals.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I want to really go a little deeper and clarify this. Because I\u2019ve now been exposed to your approach, the PACT approach, for longer than a decade. And often, when I describe it to people\u2014and I\u2019ve gotten so much value out of it, and I have a further journey to make, but I\u2019m on the journey\u2014but when I describe it to people, they often say, \u201cThat sounds a lot like codependency, Tami, the way you\u2019re describing it. You\u2019re supposed to know what your partner needs and then tend to it.\u201d\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Instead of saying like, \u201cHey, why don\u2019t you just take care of yourself? I\u2019ll take care of myself. You take care of yourself. We can come back together in a while.\u201d but I don\u2019t really always want to be independently taking care of what you need. I mean, you go so far as to say you are your partner\u2019s whisperer. It\u2019s your job. And I thought to myself, \u201cIs that my job?\u201d I thought my job was to be available, but they have a job taking care of themselves. So, here\u2019s the core question, the difference between a system that values interdependence and codependence.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ST: <\/b>So, you and I can agree to live independently like you talked about, just like Sartre and Bouvier did, right? There are other examples of coupledom where they lived separately and they came together when they felt like it and they were still primary partners throughout life. They were, but they didn\u2019t really live together or they didn\u2019t do the typical kind of dyadic pair-bonding situation. That\u2019s fine as long as two people agree. You and I could agree to be polyamorous. We could agree to have consensual, non-monogamy in our relationship. We could do anything we want. We just have to agree. And we have to think like adults and predict, plan, and prepare for what could possibly go wrong that would be felt as unfair, unjust, too insensitive, right? That\u2019s what we would have to do. So, again, it comes down to organization. How are we going to organize this?<\/span><\/p>\n

We\u2019re not children. We just don\u2019t run into this and see what happens. There is some kind of predicting and planning that goes on, because we want to enjoy ourselves. And we can\u2019t, if we feel threatened by each other\u2014and the human capacity to experience threat, even if it\u2019s not someone intending to be threatening is legendary. So here, we\u2019re talking about the biology of the human primate, the history of the human primate, how we\u2019re wired, what is our legacy, but also what works and doesn\u2019t work in systems where people are wanting to stay together without getting to a place where they go to war, which is very easy for us to do.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>All right. I\u2019m still not clear, so I\u2019m going to ask it again.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ST: <\/b>Sure.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>You look at a couple and you go, \u201cOh, that\u2019s a really codependent couple.\u201d And you look at a couple and you say, \u201cOh, that\u2019s an interdependent couple that really wants to create a system that supports each other.\u201d What\u2019s the difference?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ST: <\/b>Codependency is one direction only. So, codependency is my focus is all on you and not on me. I focus on you. So, you will focus on me. This goes back to childhood. If my parent is depressed, my parent is alcoholic, my parent is not there for me\u2014in order for me to feel safe and secure, I have to make the relationship in my head secure. What I\u2019m doing is I am trying to make you OK so that you can take care of me. That\u2019s codependency. My focus is on you in hopes that you will give me what I feel I deserve and have been wanting. And when you don\u2019t, I\u2019m quite angry. So, it\u2019s in one direction only. It\u2019s not reciprocal. I don\u2019t expect you\u2014I want you to return the favor, but I don\u2019t expect it and demand it. I\u2019m too afraid of losing you to declare my own rights and privileges, and I am not acting as an equal partner here. I\u2019m a passenger of sorts. That\u2019s different. That\u2019s codependency.\u00a0\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Is reciprocal or mutual codependency the same as being interdependent?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ST: <\/b>Well, codependency would have been a better term, but it was already co-opted, and we know the time it was. I was with those in that generation of therapists with John Bradshaw, Pia Mellody, and so on. But we forget that that came out of AA. That came out of Alcoholics Anonymous of the co-alcoholic, the enabler, and then it got morphed into something else that is now used in the population as a cudgel, a way to beat somebody up or to devalue them or call them borderline or call them codependent as if it\u2019s some kind of disease.<\/span><\/p>\n

We are in fact dependent animals, we are from the beginning to the very end. Any other idea of that is denial. We are dependent creatures. We know this. We learn independence out of being dependent. There are a lot of people out there that call independence something that is actually an adaptation to early attachment neglect. I don\u2019t know the difference may be between being independent and interdependent because I have an allergy to dependency, so I deny it and I don\u2019t like you clinging. I don\u2019t like you depending on me in any way. It would be really great if you just did your thing, I did my thing. You live downstairs. I live upstairs. Let\u2019s not give each other gifts this Christmas. Let\u2019s just call it even. We just don\u2019t do it.<\/span><\/p>\n

That is the narrative of people that we consider, in attachment research, as being in the distancing group, people who are oriented toward independence, but is not true independence. True independence developmentally comes out of being fully dependent and never being pushed into independency, but never being also pushed away from dependency. So here, we\u2019re talking about early adaptation to a parental or a familial pattern or orientation where the self comes first over a relationship. So, here I\u2019m talking about relationship first.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>When you say you\u2019re your partner\u2019s whisperer, it\u2019s your job. What does that mean? And tell me what that means for you personally, like you\u2019re your wife\u2019s whisperer. What does that mean?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ST: <\/b>Well, I\u2019m thinking of the cat whisperer, the dog whisperer, the horse whisperer. We could call it \u201cI am a master at Tami.\u201d I\u2019m an expert. I have a PhD in Tami, and I\u2019m still learning. I know how to work with Tami in all of her states. There\u2019s nothing Tami can do that frightens me or throws me for a loop. I don\u2019t blame Tami for being Tami. I am responsible for influencing her, persuading her, getting her to do things that I would like to do without using a stick or a whip. That\u2019s mastery. That\u2019s competence, the same competence we would have with a child or a pet. Most people don\u2019t think they should have to do that with their partner. They would like their partner to be able to do that with them however.<\/span><\/p>\n

So, if our survival is dependent on each other, if our fates are tied together, then it makes sense. I have to be very good at you. Otherwise, we can\u2019t create things. We can\u2019t solve problems. We can\u2019t calm and soothe each other. We can\u2019t predict each other. It\u2019s like any team. If we are a rock-and-roll band, we need to know each other, because we depend on each other. We have to play. We have to perform. If we\u2019re a dance partnership, we have to know each other\u2019s weaknesses and strengths because we want to win. That\u2019s our shared purpose, shared vision. So, if we\u2019re in the foxhole together and we have to survive against enemies, you can be sure we\u2019re going to find out about each other, because I need to know how to handle you, manage you if you-know-what hits the fan, right? That is pure survival, selfish need.<\/span><\/p>\n

I need to be good at you, because I don\u2019t want to spend all my time feeling incompetent, which means I won\u2019t like you. We don\u2019t like that which we can\u2019t manage. We don\u2019t like babies we can\u2019t calm. We don\u2019t like computers we can\u2019t operate. We don\u2019t like partners we don\u2019t know how to manage. So, that\u2019s why it\u2019s there.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I noticed when I hear you talk about us \u201cin the foxhole\u201d together, and I\u2019ve heard you describe relationships\u2014<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ST: <\/b>I know. I was more like\u2014<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>No, it\u2019s OK, but we\u2019re two police officers who are partners in a car together and I think to myself, all of the metaphors that you use, including the human, animal, apes that we are, and our sense of threat and fear and how we have to work with that\u2014I wonder to myself, huh? It\u2019s interesting. Most of the time when people talk about relationships, they use a word like love. They use a lot of love talk. And Stan goes more into survival, threat, and you\u2019re my survival partner. And where does the love part come in?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ST: <\/b>Love in terms of courtship and attraction is nature\u2019s way of getting us to pair bond and getting us to stick together.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>That\u2019s very romantic, Stan, very romantic.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ST: <\/b>Well, nature isn\u2019t romantic. It couldn\u2019t give a shit about romance. Nature doesn\u2019t care about relationship. We do. Nature cares about survival of the species and the continuation of a species. So, nature does a great job of creating a biological kinship, so to speak, chemically between the two of us. That\u2019s happening invisibly. We don\u2019t see that. We\u2019re not aware of it, but it\u2019s going on all the time. Then there is the psychobiological component of recognition. So, you and I might play around and might do all sorts of things, but commit to each other is another matter. That takes a certain amount of recognition and familiarity with each other in order for us to accomplish that. If we\u2019re too familiar, it\u2019s boring. It\u2019s too much like I\u2019m with my sister or brother. If we\u2019re too stranger-like, it\u2019s too far away from home and then I won\u2019t feel like I can be with you and you\u2019re too alien.<\/span><\/p>\n

So, there\u2019s just the right amount, which means that we\u2019re going to project on each other and we\u2019re going to remember, as if we\u2019re proxies for everybody who came before. We\u2019re going to remember everything that bugged us or threatened us or hurt us that is unresolved, and that\u2019s one of the reasons this relationship is the hardest. Also, love is an emotion that we confuse with a lot of different things. For instance, we confuse attachment for love. It isn\u2019t. The attachment is the \u201cI can\u2019t quit you\u201d biology and it\u2019s there to hold us together, but it can also hold us together when our relationship is inappropriate. I shouldn\u2019t be here because it\u2019s abusive or it\u2019s too unfair or it\u2019s not a good deal. So, it cuts both ways, but it is not love. It is an existential, primal, survival issue of attachment going all the way back to infancy and it\u2019s very powerful.<\/span><\/p>\n

So, then what is love? Well, what I would like and what I enjoy is something called earned love. That comes from deed, actions, behaviors, agreements, cooperation, collaboration. That is something that endures. The love that most people are talking about is changeable like the weather, like all emotions. We can\u2019t control emotion. We can\u2019t control thoughts. They come and go. Only thing we can control is behavior, and that is what protects emotions. So, if we just go by love, which is insufficient to hold us together, we\u2019re not going to do very well. People do a lot of bad things in the name of love. So, there\u2019s that. We have to organize according to purpose. What is our purpose? How are we going to work together as two separate people, two different brains and nervous systems, two different histories, two different moods at any given time?<\/span><\/p>\n

The fact that we are on the same page at any given time is a fantasy. We only approximate each other\u2019s minds. We\u2019re talking about something that is in itself a challenge, only the fantasy of sameness. Because \u201cwe\u2019re in love\u201d gives us a sense that we\u2019re made for each other, but that\u2019s going to last a good hot minute, because as soon as we commit and as soon as we automate each other, that\u2019s when the fun begins. That\u2019s when we start to realize that people are a pain in the ass and everyone is difficult and everyone\u2019s disappointing and contradictory.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>One of my favorite teachings of the PACT approach: you\u2019re a pain in the ass and your partner\u2019s a pain in the ass.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ST: <\/b>Yeah, there is no such thing as anything other than that, because we\u2019re two different people and we have wills. We have minds that are mostly cloaked. We\u2019re leaves in the wind. Much of the time, we think we\u2019re conscious. We think we\u2019re making decisions. I can prove along with other scientists that most of what we\u2019re doing every day is automated by memory. We\u2019re not thinking. We\u2019re operating through a primitive system of pattern recognition, which makes our life easier, but also causes us to go to war.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now, I want to pick up on something, because when you were talking about how somebody can mistake attachment for love and love is different, I thought to myself, \u201cThere\u2019s probably someone listening who\u2019s asking the question, \u2018Am I attached or is this love?\u2019\u201d And how would I know? In my own experience? I\u2019m not in an abusive relation. It\u2019s not bad. It\u2019s not like I\u2019m going against, but it all feels mixed in together.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ST: <\/b>Yes, it is mixed in together. It is. Does a baby start to feel loved when its hunger pangs are satisfied by the breast, when its temperature is being regulated by a caregiver\u2019s skin temp, body, and holding? Is it that the emotions are being regulated by the eyes and the prosody of the voice, that is the caregiver-infant collaboration in their talk, their chatter? All of this is felt as love. When we feel cared for, we feel loved. When somebody remembers the people in our lives and is current, we feel loved. When people show up to our celebrations, we feel loved. And when they\u2019re there when we\u2019re sick and in pain, we feel loved. But these are connected to behaviors, and unfortunately, many of the behaviors and the formalities that we engage in to court, we drop as soon as we automate each other and confuse each other for family.<\/span><\/p>\n

No other relationship does this. Business relationships, other relationships. We\u2019re going to build a church. We\u2019re going to build a community. We\u2019re going to start a rock-and-roll band. Whatever it is, we\u2019re engaged in something not because of love, but because we have a shared purpose and a shared vision. I want to go where you\u2019re going. I want that. I want to do that along with you. I like you, but that\u2019s not the reason I\u2019m doing it. I\u2019m doing it because I like your purpose. I like your mission. I like the culture. I like what you\u2019ve built. I want to join.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>But now Stan, I think most people, if they get married to somebody and they have children, that\u2019s my family. Of course, that\u2019s my family. My partner, we are the nuclear family. So, you\u2019re questioning that? That\u2019s confusing.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ST: <\/b>Well, not really. The couple is not family. We\u2019re not the same blood. Our children are our family. We created the family. It was a couple\u2019s project. We created the family and we\u2019re supposed to remain a couple, not this single entity as family. When that happens, we lose the couple, the reason for being the engine that drives everything. We lose the people who are the leaders and are in charge of this whole thing. So, we make a mistake by forgetting that we are a couple first and foremost from this point to the end point, because that is the hierarchy. That is the government. That is the two of us pleasing each other, caring for each other well, so that we have the resources to do everything else: to be good parents, to be good neighbors, to be good at our jobs, to be creative, to be healthy.<\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s a necessary condition and it\u2019s not a mush of people. So, you and I are not family as a couple. We are strangers constantly trying to know each other through life, and the formalities that afford strangers has to be there. Otherwise, we\u2019ll violate each other\u2019s sense of sensibilities and so on. How many people start to do this right away? I don\u2019t ask you whether this is a good time to talk. I just intrude. I just start talking to you. I call you from another room. I don\u2019t say thank you when you\u2019ve gone out of your way to apologize to me. There are a lot of things we stop doing because we become entitled to this like family, and that\u2019s a big mistake. We are strangers with shared power\u2014two generals, two alphas, two bosses. We have to work together as two powerful people and that takes collaboration, cooperation, and respect.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>You\u2019ve said a couple times there\u2019s a purpose between us, as this collaborative two-person psychological survival unit, and that we need to know our purpose and declare our purpose. What\u2019s your purpose in your unit? What\u2019s the purpose?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ST: <\/b>We care for each other. We have each other\u2019s backs. We are time travelers. We\u2019re the center of the universe. Our relationship comes first in all things. We take care of each other before we take care of other people. We are the leaders. Everyone\u2019s coming to our party, Tracy and mine. Everything we do has to be fair and just, and we have to pay attention to the balance of that field. Otherwise, the system gets bogged down in litigation and we will be unfriendly and we will be unhappy and that\u2019s a loop that some people never get out of. So, we know what\u2019s important and I got to tell you, it sounds very dry, but I am more in love with Tracy today than I\u2019ve ever been. Our relationship deepens every day. We earn love and respect because we do things that we decide we must do ahead of time even if we don\u2019t feel like it.<\/span><\/p>\n

And that\u2019s when unions, relationships, become awesome. You and I plan to set the bar higher than we ordinarily would in anything, because we want a good life. There\u2019s a purpose to that. We don\u2019t do it because we\u2019re going to want to at every moment. We\u2019re doing it because we want that thing. It must happen regardless of if we like each other or not, whether we\u2019re angry with each other or not, it must happen. So now, we\u2019re talking about something higher than the self, the union. This, again, shared mythology, this made-up thing that we co-created that preserves us, the individuals, and also protects us from each other.<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s hard, because we\u2019re people\u2014moody and all sorts of other things that we do to step on each other\u2019s toes. So, having this shared idea, this shared set of purpose, the shared vision reminds us why we\u2019re doing this and what we\u2019re getting out of it and that every time we practice, we get more and more out of it, again, because it\u2019s a character issue. We\u2019re shooting for the moon. We\u2019re deciding what is good in life and what is best. We agree we\u2019re going to do it.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Let\u2019s say someone\u2019s listening and says, \u201cWe put our family first. We put our children first. This is our young new infant. Of course, we\u2019re going to put our infant first. We\u2019re not putting our coupledom first. It\u2019s the child.\u201d What would you say to that?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ST: <\/b>If that is your highest priority and you\u2019ve agreed to that, that\u2019s fine, but don\u2019t come into my office complaining that you\u2019re not having sex because the purpose isn\u2019t the relationship. The purpose is to be parents. So, be parents, be the best parents you can be, but don\u2019t complain about your coupledom. That is not the gig. If you\u2019re coming together because your self, your self-development\u2014and that\u2019s valid. All of this is valid. You get to choose whatever is important to you. I\u2019m talking about if you\u2019re going to join with someone, you better agree or you\u2019ll be pointing in different directions and that\u2019s a prime area for fighting. I don\u2019t care what you pick, but I will ask you if your kids come first and your relationship sucks, how is that benefiting your kids?<\/span><\/p>\n

Aren\u2019t your kids looking at the two of you as the theater, the exemplars for how to do relationship, how to deal with fairness, how to be humble, how to repair misdeeds, how to effectively be in conflict, how to deal with a difficult personality, how to make decisions? If you can\u2019t do it, then thank you very much, mom, dad. I\u2019m going to do the same thing as you did. I\u2019m going to pick the same kind of relationship and I\u2019m going to have just as an unsuccessful union as you did, and my kids are going to complain just like I am. So, you\u2019ve got to think it through. If the couple is not in good shape, is anyone better off, including the couple? I would say no. Nobody is.<\/span><\/p>\n

The couple is the star, the sun around other people orbiting, and you and I are orbiting around each other. We have a duty to resource each other so we can be the best at everything. Otherwise, we\u2019re draining resources and we\u2019re getting each other sicker, because an insecure functioning relationship is high in interpersonal stress and threat, which means there\u2019s high allostatic load, meaning a lot of wear and tear daily on all systems, the brain and the body, metabolic inflammation, autoimmune, cardiovascular. We\u2019re going to be dead sooner because we don\u2019t get along, because we operate in a way that makes us deeply unhappy. So, again, this is not a luxury, this is a necessity. If we want a good life and we want good relationships, it starts at the top, and that\u2019s with you and me.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I have to say I love talking to you, Stan. I feel like we\u2019re playing ping-pong, which is one of my favorite sports.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ST: <\/b>I love ping-pong.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>You\u2019re so fast, man. You\u2019re so fast. In <\/span>In Each Other\u2019s Care<\/span><\/i>, you introduce a technique you call sherlocking, and that we can pay such attention to our beloved\u2019s face and different parts of the face. Tell us how do I become good at sherlocking? What is it?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ST: <\/b>I introduced sherlocking with <\/span>Wired for Dating<\/span><\/i> because of the idea that, \u201cOh, my God, it\u2019s so boring to go out with all these people that are losers and it\u2019s a waste of my time.\u201d And it actually isn\u2019t. Dating is a training ground for understanding people, for being able to read people, to be able to tell who\u2019s appropriate for me, not by giving them the second degree or whatever, putting them under a spotlight, but by being skillful. It\u2019s learning how to study people without believing what they say, right? Narratives lie. People lie, not because they\u2019re liars, but because there\u2019s actually a disconnect between how we really feel and think and what we say that has to do with real time being too fast and that we\u2019re basically operating daily through recognition systems that are lightning fast, not thinking.<\/span><\/p>\n

So, sherlocking is me watching you lift your cup. By the way you lifted your cup, subcortically, you made the decision to do that before you even were aware that you were going to lift your cup. Just saying. OK, that\u2019s how much control we have over our unconscious or our subcortical regions that are driving the show. So, I\u2019m going to be paying attention to you. I am fascinated. I\u2019m watching every detail in your face, your eyebrows. Are they rounded? Are they triangular? Are they flat? Your color of your eyes, your symmetry, your lips, your earrings, what you\u2019re wearing, your hair color, where it\u2019s parted, what you\u2019re wearing around your neck. I\u2019m going to absorb myself with every detail I can find on you because doing that, first of all, helps me fall in love with you.<\/span><\/p>\n

Whenever we pay really strong attention to details in the face, we tend to fall in love, because we\u2019re showing interest. We are interested and we\u2019re noticing detail as opposed to what we do later, as we\u2019re not present. We don\u2019t pay attention and I start to lose interest. So, paying attention to detail, listening to what you say, how you say it, listening, watching to how you treat other people, noticing how you react to certain things, understanding where your areas of vulnerability are, your kryptonite areas, your Achilles\u2019 heel. All of that endears me to you, helps me find the baby in you and helps me actually understand you without you telling me how to understand you.<\/span><\/p>\n

I\u2019m actually watching you as I would a baby or a pet. My dog doesn\u2019t talk. I have to read my dog, my horse, my baby, right? Humans unfortunately talk and make a lot of noise. That is sometimes means something. Most of the time means nothing, and we get caught up in that and we stop observing, watching, and paying attention. So, my sherlocking allows me to find tells, things that you leak, that you do, that give me more information about you and my impact on you and how you are actually feeling in the moment perhaps. And that\u2019s further knowledge that benefits you and me, right?<\/span><\/p>\n

I need to know how you work. I need your owner\u2019s manual. Otherwise, I won\u2019t like you eventually. I have to feel competent with you. But people are interesting. We know that when people pay very close attention to faces and bodies in motion that their empathy scores go up when they take a certain instrument that measures empathy. When they stop doing it, their empathy scores go down. So, there is something, the way we are wired, we\u2019re visual animals, and we especially\u2014our brains love faces, and close up. That is not only a way to fall in love, it\u2019s a way to show interest.<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s a way to deal. Actually, if you have social anxiety and you\u2019re self-conscious, one way to get out of that is to study people\u2019s faces as you\u2019re talking to them. They feel that you\u2019re attentive, which you are, and now you have a task to study every movement, every detail in their face. You don\u2019t have time to think about yourself and how you\u2019re doing. So, it\u2019s all good to do this and unfortunately people don\u2019t do this enough.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>One of the things you also offer for people to try is if you\u2019re having some kind of distressful situation, you\u2019re suffering, your partner\u2019s suffering, maintain eye contact\u2014that something very powerful happens when you maintain eye contact in a situation of distress. What\u2019s happening then? And of course, we don\u2019t want to maintain eye contact, especially if my argument is with you. The last thing I want to do is look at you. I want to scream at you from the other room.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ST: <\/b>Everything that I talk about is tactical, is practical and tactical, according to what research tells us about us and what my understanding of the brain and nervous system is. All of that comes from this. It\u2019s not about politeness. Why should I keep my eyes on you and why should I be dead ahead, straight on, and not to the side? If I\u2019m to the side, the amygdala, which is a fear center, that\u2019s the first thing that picks up any kind of threat and then sets an alarm. That fires more frequently if you are at my side or I see your face only at a glance. So, I\u2019m primed more for threat if I am in that position.<\/span><\/p>\n

I\u2019m legally blind on the side. So, are you. Therefore, the only thing I can see with high definition is dead ahead through a very, very small aperture called the fovea, part of the macula. Since we\u2019re visual animals and we err correct mistakes in our sensory inputs, especially through sound, we err correct through the visual field. We can still make errors. We make less. I want to keep my eyes on the ball and make sure I make the least amount of errors when we are under stress or in distress. It\u2019s in my best interest to do that.<\/span><\/p>\n

Plus this is a very fast-moving game that we\u2019re playing. I have to watch you as I talk and see my effect on you because if you fall over, I fall over. If I drive you into a threat state, game over. I\u2019ve lost my audience. You can no longer be influenced. I did that because I did not talk for you. I talked just for me. So, collaborative speech means I am talking for the audience I have. That means you, how you perceive things, how you hear things. I\u2019m not just talking for me. So, the eyes have to be on you because if your face goes south at any point and I don\u2019t stop and check, then why am I talking? Who am I really talking to? Mostly me, right? I want to get something out. I want to feel good as opposed to doing good. So, this is a team sport is what I\u2019m saying, not a solo sport.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Well, and even you\u2019ve mentioned this idea of earning. We earn our secure functioning relationships. This is a big moment to earn, to be very upset with your partner and to say, \u201cLet\u2019s look in each other\u2019s eyes and talk about this,\u201d versus slamming the door.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ST: <\/b>I\u2019m not going to tell you to look in my eyes when you\u2019re feeling threatened. You\u2019re going to punch me. I\u2019m just going to do it because I put myself in jeopardy if I don\u2019t keep my eyes on you as I\u2019m talking and you\u2019re talking. If I go internally, I step out of real time and I\u2019ll miss a tune with you. I will miss a tune. That adds fuel to the fire. So, if I know it\u2019s good for me, I\u2019m going to stay present and attentive because I want to get out of this thing so that we\u2019re both relieved as quickly as possible, get out of dodge, and do something different. I don\u2019t want to stay in this with you, but I need to fix this and remedy this because whatever happens to you is going to happen to me. Can I give you an example?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Yeah, please, please.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ST: <\/b>Because you mentioned about a two-person system. If I were in some universe allowed to bind you and your partner\u2019s inner legs together for a month without going to jail or being sued, if I could do that for a month, you would understand what a two-person psychological system of interdependence means. You are in fact two separate people, which is why it\u2019s going to be difficult to go to the bathroom. You\u2019re going to have to intuit each other. You\u2019re going to have to move together. If you move faster than your partner, you both fall. If you pull apart, it\u2019s going to hurt, right? You\u2019re going to have to work together to accomplish anything. Now, being partnered doesn\u2019t mean you\u2019re shackled together. So, that\u2019s the wrong image, but I\u2019m saying that it gives you an idea that you have to think differently.<\/span><\/p>\n

You have to consider your partner simultaneously, as you\u2019re considering yourself. Otherwise, there\u2019s going to be trouble. So, secure functioning is basically a formula. I have to consistently think about your interests at the same time I\u2019m thinking about my interests, or you will confuse me as someone who is an adversary. That\u2019s a fact. As soon as I talk about my interests only and I do not mention yours or talk about yours, you then become compelled to care for your interests only as well. We\u2019re going to congeal, and we\u2019re going to be adversaries. It\u2019ll happen every time. I don\u2019t care who you are, everywhere on the planet. If you\u2019re a human being, that\u2019s going to happen. So, it\u2019s a different kind of thinking. It\u2019s a higher level of moral development. I have to think of you and me at the same time or I will get nothing. I\u2019ll get nothing. I can\u2019t influence you. I can\u2019t do any of that because you\u2019re going to see me as someone who doesn\u2019t give a shit about you or your interests or your fears, and that\u2019s reasonable.<\/span><\/p>\n

So, it\u2019s a simple formula, and it\u2019s just hard to do because of the nature of human beings. I can be a three-year-old, selfish. I can be narcissistic, entitled. I want what I want. If I can get away with something, I\u2019ll get away with it. That\u2019s the opportunism. If I can settle a score that I feel is unjust, I\u2019ll do it even though I\u2019m causing another injustice. I\u2019ve got to be right. A lot of times, I don\u2019t want to apologize if I feel I have nothing to apologize for, and if I\u2019m angry with Tracy, I don\u2019t want to hold to our principle of\u2026 We can go to bed angry, but we at least have to touch toes. I\u2019ll do it because I believe in it and I have agreed, and that\u2019s a character issue, but is it hard to do? Yes.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Well, that\u2019s interesting that you brought that up about touching toes, because I know you emphasize, in your work, this notion of quick repair when there\u2019s an argument. And that can work sometimes, but I\u2019ve also wondered, I wonder what Stan would do when you\u2019re like, \u201cLook, I\u2019m just not in the place right now. I can\u2019t do it today. I can\u2019t do it today. Maybe tomorrow, but not today. I don\u2019t want to talk to anybody today, but I could\u2026\u201d You and your wife have this thing where you at least touch toes and then you go sleep on the couch or whatever the heck it is.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ST: <\/b>Yeah, well, her toes aren\u2019t on the couch. I don\u2019t have a need to go to the couch if we\u2019re touching toes because everything drops. As soon as we do that, touch is an unequivocal signal of friendliness. So, it just prolongs my health. Here\u2019s the real reason for the repair. The repair has to do with memory. If I hold you in suspension for too long and you\u2019re hurt, upset with me, you\u2019re producing adrenaline and adrenal components that will drive the experience into long-term memory, where now I have to deal with that for a long, long, long time. I did that because I allowed you to stay in distress for too long and now it goes into long-term memory.<\/span><\/p>\n

If I were to fix it right away, you\u2019d not remember this. I wouldn\u2019t remember it. We could have disagreements and little tiffs throughout the day, and if we were skillful, we would never remember anything other than we had a good day. That\u2019s how memory works. That\u2019s one. Two, when there\u2019s a breach in our relationship, in a primary attachment relationship, there is a biological matter and that is an existential threat, an internal part of us, an infant part of us that wonders if our relationship will exist tomorrow. Everyone will have this. So, you and I had a big blowout. We go to work. We\u2019re not talking. We are suffering, because on some level we don\u2019t know whether we will exist, and that is an existential crisis. That\u2019s why you and I don\u2019t have to solve world peace. We don\u2019t have to resolve anything right now or ever. All we have to do is signal to us, at least at the minimum, and right now, I hate you. I don\u2019t want to talk to you, but we\u2019re OK.<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s the you and I are OK is the basic need in order to shut off the neuroendocrine stress system that is causing wear and tear, that is making the relationship more threatening, that is doing all these really not-so-good things to our brain and body and our spirit with no upside whatsoever. So, I think we can eke out given our ability to override, if it is in our best interest to at least signal, I could pass you by and say, \u201cWe\u2019re OK,\u201d but I can do that. I can express anger and also affirm and reassure you. At the same time, I can express love and anger at the same time. The two aren\u2019t supposed to be bifurcated.<\/span><\/p>\n

This is, again, an area of just what is good for me and for you. To hold out and not do some kind of rapprochement is. It just is. There\u2019s no way that I can hurt you without getting hurt myself. Our fates are tied. This is different kind of relationship. Whatever happens to you is going to happen to me. Good things and bad things. Therefore, self-care is also caring for you. I stand up for myself, but I also protect your interests. Otherwise, we cannot get along and we cannot do business, because we\u2019re going to suspect each other, not trust each other, and that is going to get in the way of anything we try to do.<\/span><\/p>\n

All of this goes to safety and security, trust, which is essential, and also ease. We want the relationship to be as easy and fluid as possible, because nothing else will be. Life is, as we know, is filled with unknowns. A lot of it\u2019s dangerous. A lot of it\u2019s sad with loss. A lot of it is good, but the fact that we don\u2019t know and that it\u2019s not all going to be good should give us a heads-up that you and I have to be good, otherwise we\u2019ll fall apart when things get rough.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Stan, your new book <\/span>In Each Other\u2019s Care<\/span><\/i>, first of all, I just want to say it\u2019s a gorgeous title. The title itself is a teaching. It\u2019s just beautiful, but it\u2019s a repair manual, if you will, where you\u2019re looking at many of the common complaints and challenges that people have and the questions people have. What about when this? What about\u2026? You address, of course, lots of issues, including what you call the Big Five: sex, money, kids, time, and mess. And I thought, really? Mess made the list way up at the top?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ST: <\/b>Oh, yeah.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I was curious about that. Sex, money, kids. I always hear about them as the big three and then time and mess.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ST: <\/b>Messiness is differences in what clean is, what clutter is, hoarding. Creating messes also in relationships. I create messes. So, messiness is a subjective experience that you are disorderly. I find you disorderly. For my tastes visually, I can\u2019t stand the disorder. Sound-wise, I can\u2019t stand the disorder. I can\u2019t stand the tumult that you create. I can\u2019t stand the lack of cleaning up after yourself. This is a common, common complaint, and some people actually will divorce over this, especially hoarding, which is a pernicious actual disorder. So, messiness does rank there.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Timeliness, you\u2019re late. You don\u2019t show up. You don\u2019t remember things. You don\u2019t remember when my birthdate is, right? You don\u2019t say things when it\u2019s appropriate. Timeliness, this is not the right time to do that. So, that\u2019s why that\u2019s there.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Of course, there\u2019s religion. There\u2019s thirds. Thirds are anything that isn\u2019t you and me that would interfere with our primacy. Anything that takes away what I feel is mine will cultivate jealousy and threat. So, we have to be careful how we handle third things, third people, and that we do it in such a way that\u2019s transparent and collaborative. Otherwise, that\u2019s another thing that will break us up.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>You had an interesting sentence in the book that if there\u2019s a problem in terms of jealousy, that inherently means that the person who\u2019s, \u201cI\u2019m jealous because my wife\u2019s doing whatever. My wife\u2019s not doing a good enough job to take care of me in that situation.\u201d Isn\u2019t it my problem that I\u2019m jealous?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ST: <\/b>If you think as a one-person system, yeah. Yeah. If you have the gestalt prayer, you do your thing, I do my thing, and we should meet in the middle somehow. Yay, hurrah. Otherwise, screw up.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>But what is she supposed to do about my jealousy? Why is the onus on her? What is she supposed to do? I have a jealous nature, you know?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ST: <\/b>Yeah, jealousy.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I\u2019m using as an example. I mean, it\u2019s not actually\u2026 Well, it might be somewhat true, but it\u2019s not. I\u2019m just using it as an example.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ST: <\/b>There are people who come to the table paranoid, because of memory and injuries, trauma from previous relationships where jealousy is on their mind and they\u2019re primed. They come preloaded with it. So, that does exist, but in my experience, most jealousy with adults, not kids, most jealousy is due to someone in the dyad mismanaging a third thing or person in a way that gives rise to a sense of something of mine is being threatened. That\u2019s jealousy. Jealousy is triadic, right? Developmentally, it\u2019s triadic. A third thing threatens me to take what I believe is mine by virtue of a tacit if not explicit agreement that we\u2019re primary attachment partners unless we decide otherwise.<\/span><\/p>\n

Envy is you have something I want. It\u2019s dyadic, right? Dyadic, like envy, because you\u2019re doing something or having something I wish I\u2019d have. That\u2019s mirror, mirror on the wall, who\u2019s the fairest of them all? I might kill you for that, or I just want to be like you. That\u2019s good, but jealousy is triadic and it usually refers to, I am putting something else before you, and it\u2019s taking my time and resources away from you, and it\u2019s being cloaked perhaps in a way you can\u2019t see, which makes you fill in the blank. And since our brains have a negativity bias, what you fill in is always going to be the worst possible thing according to your personal narrative in history. So I\u2019m doing that. The third thing\u2014 kid, ex-wife, mother, boss\u2014is not the problem. They\u2019re relatively innocent. Actually, it\u2019s my partner that\u2019s allowing that to happen and it\u2019s not remaining infidelity to a basic, usual, biological entitlement expectation, and that we are primary attachment partners like in infancy. And when you treat me as secondary or tertiary or throw me under the bus or leave me out of important things, I feel violated and I feel betrayed.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

This is universal. In Utah, when illegal polygamous groups are broken up by the state, the men always pick their primary attachment partner. There\u2019s always a primary, the one that we go to when we\u2019re in the most distress, the one that we want to celebrate with first. We don\u2019t go to a group. We go to a person, and that\u2019s usually the primary. In Africa, where it\u2019s primarily a polygamous society, only one tribe isn\u2019t. All the huts. If you go there, all the huts are in descending order in size, no matter where you go. There\u2019s the big hut, obviously, the dude because it\u2019s still male-centric, and then the primary female, which is the second-biggest hut and all the other huts are smaller. That says something about our general nature to pair bond in dyads with a tight orbit of primacy, going all the way back to childhood, because it\u2019s a tendency for us to do that again and again and again. And it comes with a lot of expectations and entitlements that if you don\u2019t do that, I\u2019m going to be very upset with you.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>But just to get really practical. So, let\u2019s say my partner\u2019s jealous about something. What should I be doing? Should I be reassuring them? I should say, \u201cCome on.\u201d I go to touch them. I say, \u201cNo, you\u2019re my number one.\u201d I take that on as mine to do. Is that what you\u2019re pointing to?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ST: <\/b>You reassure first your partner on\u2014this should be a daily thing. You are my person, right? In order for me to be able to turn my attention elsewhere, you have to be secure, and I have to make sure you\u2019re secure. You have to make sure I\u2019m secure. That\u2019s what we do. That\u2019s why we get paid the big bucks. So, I am reinforcing that you are my person. You are my one and only if that\u2019s our arrangement, if that\u2019s our arrangement, right? And that security provides me the freedom to be and do other things, because you\u2019re not threatened, because I show you, again and again, you are my person. As opposed to someone who is not that good at it and doesn\u2019t do it, they have a partner who is greedy, a partner who is paranoid, a partner who is not forgiving, doesn\u2019t give a lot of leeway, because they\u2019re fundamentally insecure.<\/span><\/p>\n

This partner will be accused of looking at other people, not paying attention, and that is a fault of that partner, not shoring up the security system. I don\u2019t think I should, because after all, you should just be secure. That is a misunderstanding of how human beings are actually built. That\u2019s a denial of how human beings actually work.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Stan, in this <\/span>Guide to the Most Common Relationship Conflicts and How to Work Through Them<\/span><\/i>, you take this model, the PACT model, the secure functioning model, and you apply it to really all the problems that people have. I was going to ask you about when one partner wants to have sex a whole lot more than the other partner. I mean, you\u2019re giving this image of our legs are tied together for 30 days. One partner wants to have a whole lot of sex. The other person doesn\u2019t. How are we going to work through it? Well, we\u2019re going to leave people on the cliffhanger on that, all the challenges we have, and you go through them all and you apply the model. What do you hope people will get out of <\/span>In Each Other\u2019s Care<\/span><\/i>?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ST: <\/b>That the two most important things that are repeated that are going to ensure longevity and happiness is that you two actually have a hands-on approach of co-creating the architecture of this relationship. What it means, why it exists, what the boundaries are, what the culture is, what we do based on the book, <\/span>We Do<\/span><\/i>. What are we going to do? What do we do and what don\u2019t we do? So, say us both. We create this culture. It\u2019s our country. We decide what\u2019s right and what\u2019s wrong, what\u2019s good and what\u2019s bad. Nobody else that you take an active collaborative stance on shaping this unmolded clay into something delightful for both of you, not one of you, and that you continue to operate by agreement and permission to enforce as you go. That\u2019s one.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Two, that you start to understand and learn about the manner in which you both interact when one or both of you are under stress. That is the main problem. It\u2019s not the topic. It\u2019s not the subject matter. The subject matter is the stressor. The problem is always going to lie in the manner in which we interact. Every time one or both of us is under stress, if we don\u2019t do that well, that is what\u2019s going to erode our safety and security in the relationship. That\u2019s the other biggest problem. That\u2019s what the book is trying to\u2014over and over again\u2014reinforce: that it matters how we talk, our facial expressions, how we behave, how we respond. And if we do make mistakes, which we\u2019re going to, that we have the character to fall on our own swords, not because we\u2019re wrong, but because the relationship is more important than being right. The relationship is our holy grail. It is what is going to preserve us and make us happy throughout life together. So, that\u2019s the second thing that\u2019s repeated again and again.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>You\u2019ve been listening to Stan Takin. What an original thinker, brilliant person, developer of PACT, a psychobiological approach to couples\u2019 therapy, and the author of the new Sounds True book, <\/span>In Each Other\u2019s Care: A Guide to the Most Common Relationship Conflicts and How to Work Through Them<\/span><\/i>.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

If you\u2019d like to watch <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i> on video and participate in after the show Q&A conversations with featured presenters and have the chance to ask your questions, come join us on Sounds True One, A new membership community that features premium shows, live classes and community events. Let\u2019s learn and grow together. Come join us at join.soundstrue.com. Sounds True: Waking Up the World.<\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"template":"","meta":{"_expiration-date-status":"","_expiration-date":0,"_expiration-date-type":"","_expiration-date-categories":[],"_expiration-date-options":[]},"class_list":["post-20137","transcript","type-transcript","status-publish","hentry"],"yoast_head":"\nIn Each Others Care - Transcript | Sounds True<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with In Each Others Care. 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