{"id":20454,"date":"2023-11-02T11:26:10","date_gmt":"2023-11-02T17:26:10","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?post_type=transcript&p=20454"},"modified":"2023-11-02T11:26:10","modified_gmt":"2023-11-02T17:26:10","slug":"the-path-of-the-new-saint","status":"publish","type":"transcript","link":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/the-path-of-the-new-saint\/","title":{"rendered":"The Path of the New Saint"},"content":{"rendered":"
\"image_print\"Print Transcript<\/span><\/a><\/div>

Tami Simon:<\/b> Hello, friends. My name\u2019s Tami Simon, and I\u2019m the founder of Sounds True. And I want to welcome you to the Sounds True podcast: <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

I also want to take a moment to introduce you to Sounds True\u2019s new membership community and digital platform. It\u2019s called Sounds True One. Sounds True One features original premium transformational docuseries, community events, classes to start your day and relax in the evening, special weekly live shows, including a video version of <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i> with an aftershow community question-and-answer session with featured guests. I hope you\u2019ll come join us, explore, come have fun with us, and connect with others. You can learn more at join.soundstrue.com.<\/span><\/p>\n

I also want to take a moment and introduce you to the Sounds True Foundation, our nonprofit that creates equitable access to transformational tools and teachings. You can learn more at SoundsTrueFoundation.org. And in advance, thank you for your support.<\/span><\/p>\n

And welcome. In this episode of <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>, I am pleased to have the chance to introduce you to someone who I consider a friend, a brother\u2014Lama Rod Owens. Let me tell you a little bit about Lama Rod. He is a self-described Black Buddhist Southern Queen who is an authorized lama in the Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism, with a master of divinity degree from Harvard. He\u2019s the coauthor of the book <\/span>Radical Dharma<\/span><\/i> and the author of the widely acclaimed book <\/span>Love and Rage: The Path of Liberation Through Anger<\/span><\/i>.<\/span><\/p>\n

Lama Rod is a truth teller. He\u2019s someone who has a deeply sensitive nature, and he leads with strength. He is someone that I think of as a good kind of troublemaker, who has a gift for balancing weighty topics with a sense of lightness and humor. With Sounds True, Lama Rod\u2014I am so proud to say\u2014is the author of a new book. It\u2019s called <\/span>The New Saints: From Broken Hearts to Spiritual Warriors<\/span><\/i>. Lama Rod, welcome.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Lama Rod Owens:<\/b> Thank you. Thank you so much. How moving.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Welcome, friend. To begin, you start your book with a powerful sentence. \u201cI am a New Saint.\u201d And I thought, what a bold beginning. You\u2019re not waiting until after your death, somebody could proclaim whatever. You\u2019re just writing your own book here in the middle of your life, saying, \u201cI am a New Saint.\u201d OK, what does it mean to be a New Saint?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

RO:<\/b> Yeah, you know what? You have to proclaim it. You can\u2019t be willy-nilly about things anymore. It\u2019s like if this is what I\u2019m going to do, I\u2019m going to say, I\u2019m going to proclaim that this is the path. Because when you undertake the path of the New Saint, which is really about developing a deep care for ourselves, developing the same care for others, developing this deep intention to get involved, and helping to reduce harm and suffering in the world, that\u2019s really intense. And it\u2019s not something that we can be really indirect and ambiguous about. It\u2019s like, \u201cMaybe I\u2019ll do this, maybe I\u2019ll do that.\u201d No. When we\u2019re confronting real harm, real violence in the world, we have to be direct.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so when I call myself a New Saint, I am proclaiming this is what I\u2019m doing, this is what I will be doing for the rest of my life, and if possible, for the rest of all of my lives to come. This is the most important thing that anyone can do with their life is to say, \u201cThis is how I\u2019m going to help. I\u2019m going to commit myself to this path of helping for as long as I can.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> You talk about this notion of awakened care. Tell me more about that. What\u2019s awakened care?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

RO:<\/b> Yeah. Awakened care comes out of this Buddhist notion of bodhicitta. And bodhicitta is this altruistic attitude that we\u2019re practicing only to help others. And our practice helps us, but I\u2019m only doing this because I really want to be of help for others, and to ultimately help people achieve liberation from suffering.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so when I was thinking about the book and thinking about bodhicitta, I asked myself, \u201cBut what is my experience of bodhicitta?\u201d And the first word that came to mind was \u201ccare.\u201d OK, so I care. I care about myself, I care about the world, I care about people. But there\u2019s more in this experience of care.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so as I unpacked it, I found that there were streams of compassion, which is the wish for people to be free from harm and to do something to free people. And I found streams of love, which is really this deep desire to want people to be happy and resourced. And I found joy, right? Joy for me is rooted in deep appreciation, but joy is this fluid open space that allows me to do really important work and have a deep gratitude for the work that I\u2019m doing.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so all of that for me felt like it was streaming together, and it was something that I felt like I was drawing upon. And so \u201ccare\u201d turned into \u201cawakened care\u201d when all of these streams come together. So this really profound care that says, \u201cNo, it\u2019s not that I\u2019m just going to stand here and send positive vibes, or well wishes, or prayers, or thoughts,\u201d as we often do in national tragedies. No, this means that I am actually going to move into a direct relationship to the suffering of the world, including my suffering and the suffering of others. And I\u2019m going to disrupt that suffering, right? And I\u2019m going to call in joy to support that work, right? Because this is the most important thing that I can offer anyone is support and disrupting their experience of suffering.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> When you talk about this awakened care, your way of describing a kind of contemporary bodhicitta, I\u2019m curious, what does it feel like in your heart center, if you will? And do you feel it there? Do you feel it throughout your whole body? Describe it for me\u2014these streams, you said, coming together.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

RO:<\/b> It feels like these streams kind of coming down into the top of my head and then kind of collecting in my heart, and my heart center feels really expansive, and fluid, and clear. It feels nourishing. The sense that I get, it\u2019s like coming upon a spring, a clear, pure spring in the forest, and being so thirsty that you kind of bend over or reach down and begin to sip from that stream. And that stream is the most pure, nourishing water you\u2019ve ever drank. And that\u2019s how I feel when I begin to really open up to awakened care.<\/span><\/p>\n

On top of that, just space, just intense space, and openness, and fluidity. I feel nourished throughout my body. I feel held, I feel tended to, I feel like my expression of awakened care is first tending to me and taking care of me first. And then whatever fills me up and however I begin to overflow, the overflow is what I extend to others as an expression of awakened care. So I don\u2019t feel depleted when I\u2019m expressing this. I just feel like I\u2019m just overflowing into the world.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> In <\/span>The New Saints<\/span><\/i>, you describe how you can sometimes think of your own work as a healer teacher as a type of unusual laying on of hands. And I thought it would be interesting to connect that to this notion of these streams of awakened care flowing through you to others. And how do you understand this notion of your version of laying hands?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

RO:<\/b> Well, laying hands comes so directly out of my ancestry, out of the healers of my family, particularly my grandfather, James Moses Holiday, who was a Baptist minister, preacher. And I was told later in life actually that he had this gift, almost like a hidden gift, of laying hands on people, which is energy work.<\/span><\/p>\n

And for me, hands have always been really important for me. I\u2019ve been so obsessed with my hands. I\u2019m also really interested in other people\u2019s hands, because hands also for me, rooted in my ancestry, is about work, is about caring for others. It\u2019s about doing for others. It\u2019s ultimately about how we get involved, like my hands are how I get involved. I touch things, I touch the world. I shape the world and shape the world around what I need the world to be or what others need as well.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so awakened care for me can flow into the work of my hands. As I touch, I touch the world gently, but directly. And that is an expression of awakened care as well.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so, so much of these images of hands and of care is really rooted within my ancestry. I come from formerly enslaved people. I come from Africans. These are my ancestors. And I come from people who have had to embody and actualize deep care for our community in order to survive systemic violence in this world. Right? So this book is not just a Buddhist book, but it\u2019s also an ancestral book honoring my ancestors and the awakened care that they actualized that has helped me be in the world to do this work.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> In <\/span>The New Saints<\/span><\/i>, you talk about how a New Saint is someone who is in sync, in partnership with the unseen world, with ancestral forces. How does that roll for you, Lama Rod?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

RO:<\/b> Yeah. First of all, it\u2019s understanding that I am situated on land, the ancestral lands\u2014in this case of the Creek, Muscogee, and Cherokee people. And I feel the elders on this land. I feel the consciousness of the land itself. I feel my ancestors around me. I feel my home, the home that I\u2019m currently present and full of spirits who are also a part of this work of supporting me. I feel as if the world is much more dynamic than what we can sense through our sense faculties. There\u2019s more to perceive than just the phenomenal world.<\/span><\/p>\n

And for me, I have made it a point to reconnect to the unseen, because I feel like there\u2019s so much benefit, so much help that\u2019s waiting to be tuned in to if I can just remember how to tune back into the resources of the unseen.<\/span><\/p>\n

And for me, also just acknowledging that so much of how I have understood the ways in which I have been colonized and have descended from colonized people is directly related to the ways in which, at some point, my ancestors were told that our belief in the unseen was savage or evil, and those beliefs were replaced by something else that could more easily disrupt our connection to the unseen. Which in turn, disrupts our agency to get free and to gather the resources that we need to be well. And ultimately to be well, we need to be free from occupation, and colonialism, and systematic racism, and so forth and so on.<\/span><\/p>\n

So for me, at the end of the day, it\u2019s just this deep feeling that I am not alone. And not only am I not alone, I am always being cared for by the unseen world no matter where I go.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> The subtitle of <\/span>The New Saints:<\/span><\/i> From Broken Hearts to Spiritual Warriors<\/span><\/i>\u2014and Lama Rod, I want you to talk right now, if you will, because you\u2019ve talked about awakened care, this love and compassion and joy that can flow through us, being supported by the unseen world. Talk to that person whose heart is broken, and they say right now, \u201cLook, [I] feel so much of this streaming through me. What I feel more is the pain of this time, this brokenheartedness.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

RO:<\/b> And I think one of the first things that I always say is to contemplate that you\u2019re not the only one feeling this right now, while brokenheartedness in general can feel very isolating. And so for me, when I find myself in those places when I feel disconnected, I say, \u201cNo. I am not the only being in the world who feels this heaviness, this sadness, or this despair.\u201d And this is natural to feel this, because I care about things. I care about myself, I care about people, I care about the world, I care about the planet. And of course, I\u2019m going to feel some despair around the overwhelming harm that beings and the planet are experiencing. Yes, that feels like a response in a way to the anxiety of wanting people to survive and to be well.<\/span><\/p>\n

So I started with that, and that begins to open my heart a lot more, that actually I belong to a community of beings who all care and who are all struggling to work through this experience of brokenheartedness. And then when that space opens, then I can start connecting to these different pieces of awakened care, like compassion. Yes, I want people to be free from harm. And what can I do? And the love begins to awaken where it\u2019s like, yeah, and I want people to be happy. I want people to have what they need.<\/span><\/p>\n

Then next comes the gratitude, which again, opens the door to joy for me, where I\u2019m like, I have this incredible opportunity to do this work for myself and for others, because I believe ultimately that this is emotional labor, collective emotional labor. When I open like this and begin to connect to these aspects of awakened care, I\u2019m doing emotional labor for our collective. I\u2019m taking on, I\u2019m processing, I\u2019m metabolizing. And in doing so, I\u2019m beginning to lift some of this heaviness. Maybe just a little bit, but I\u2019m lifting something. And that\u2019s all incredibly important in this path.<\/span><\/p>\n

But again, just coming back, it\u2019s like this aloneness. And I cut through that aloneness or that sense of isolation through remembering that I\u2019m part of a collective, and I\u2019m part of a lot of people who are trying to be of help right now.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> You use this term \u201cemotional labor\u201d\u2014because I\u2019ve never really heard that in description of spiritual practice, of doing meditations on compassion and receiving love. \u201cWe\u2019re doing emotional labor.\u201d It\u2019s interesting that you\u2019re using that term in reference to deep inner work.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

RO:<\/b> And as a lot of people understand, emotional labor comes out of feminist work. It comes out\u2014well, it\u2019s a way for us to describe the work we have to do to be around people, and microaggressions, and surviving harm. But for me, emotional labor is the labor first and foremost that I\u2019m doing for myself to really connect to and identify what I\u2019m feeling, and to be in relationship to what I\u2019m feeling. Because the more I\u2019m in relationship to how I\u2019m feeling, the more I\u2019m able to tend to those feelings and to disrupt the ways in which I react to those feelings. And then that creates much less labor for others, who I may be forcing to do emotional labor for me, because I\u2019m not aware of what I\u2019m experiencing.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> You said this very interesting thing, \u201cdisrupt the ways I react.\u201d Tell me more about that. So whatever we\u2019re reacting to that\u2019s in our emotional experience.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

RO:<\/b> Yeah, reaction really, there\u2019s no space for thinking or processing. We feel something or we get close to something, and then there\u2019s this habitual reaction. And sometimes, it happens so quickly and it\u2019s been happening so long for some of us that we don\u2019t even know that we\u2019re reacting.<\/span><\/p>\n

I think about my early practice, particularly with anger. People would always say, \u201cWell, you know you\u2019re just reacting to something.\u201d But I\u2019m like, \u201cNo, no, I\u2019m pissed off and I can\u2019t help but to do something.\u201d It took many years of meditation practice, which I document in <\/span>Love and Rage<\/span><\/i>, of really getting into disrupting reactivity, which meant for me getting space in between the arising of something and my reaction. And once I got some space there, I could actually transform reactivity into responsiveness where I\u2019m like, \u201cOK, I feel this. I see it, I feel it, I\u2019m experiencing it. OK, how am I going to be in a relationship with it? How am I going to respond?\u201d If it\u2019s something for me, how am I going to respond to something happening for me? Or how am I going to respond to something happening in the world or in the space around me that needs tending to?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Do you think that same disruption, the same principle, the same practice of disruption could be applied to intense feelings of sorrow or hopelessness? And if so\u2014<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

RO:<\/b> Absolutely. Well, it\u2019s first understanding that these intense experiences are indeed just experiences. They\u2019re not inherently who I am. And that\u2019s really such an important transition from being sad to experiencing sadness. If I\u2019m experiencing something, then I\u2019m inherently not what this thing is.<\/span><\/p>\n

That opens up space for us to really survive the overwhelming energies that we\u2019re working with every day now, collectively and also individually. This is just an experience, and this experience can happen with other experiences.<\/span><\/p>\n

Yeah, I can feel hopelessness. Absolutely. I can feel hopelessness and despair, and I can feel joy at the same time. And joy can hold helplessness and despair when I have this level of awareness that allows everything just to be an experience, not inherently who and what I am.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> In <\/span>The New Saints<\/span><\/i>, you write about joy as a radical act, and you talked about the joy of Black people historically in the face of so much violence and oppression, and how it actually was a huge resource and is a huge resource. And I wonder if you can share more about that, and do you sort of consciously choose joy? Or how do you bring it forward and evoke it in a way that also is authentic for you?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

RO:<\/b> Well, it\u2019s both. Sometimes I have to choose joy. I have to think about it, because I\u2019ve lost connection to space and fluidity, and joy is how I get back. But also, it\u2019s just there. And when I think about the community that I come from and I think about my ancestors, there\u2019s always been joy. There\u2019s always been joy in the face of such overwhelming situations.<\/span><\/p>\n

And this joy is, I think, really related to how we understand that the world is not our home. That this world, this experience of living, is again, indeed an experience that we\u2019re moving through. And so we\u2019re passing through this, and we know that we have to make the best of this, because there\u2019s more coming as we transition out of this life. And I think that\u2019s really important for a lot of marginalized, suppressed folks. It\u2019s like, yeah, the world is hard, and also the world isn\u2019t our ultimate home. And for me, and for a lot of folks coming out of this, in this same position, it\u2019s like, yeah, that\u2019s an experience of joy. There\u2019s something else coming.<\/span><\/p>\n

And in terms of liberation theology, particularly Black liberation theology, it\u2019s also this understanding that we are experiencing a lot of suffering because of these characteristics of skin color and so forth. And because of that, we know that, in a way, God is on our side. Compassion comes to us, because we are the ones trying to survive. And trying to survive and not add more harm back into the world. So joy is a way that we begin to disrupt, sometimes, the tendency to return the same violence that\u2019s being expressed towards us back to others.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Now, I want to see if I can understand a comment you made a little deeper, \u201cthe world is not our home.\u201d Because what I noticed is that for me\u2014I\u2019ll just be personal for a moment. As somebody\u2014I mean, I never felt like I belonged here ever. And yet, I spent a lot of time in my life coming home, coming home to the earth, coming home to my body, actually making a home here. I feel like I have a home here now. So when I hear you say, \u201cThis place is not our home,\u201d I think, \u201cBut wait a second. I\u2019ve spent a lot of my life finding home here.\u201d So I\u2019m not sure maybe if I understand exactly what you\u2019re pointing to.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

RO:<\/b> Well, in a way, the world isn\u2019t our home, because we\u2019re going to die. So for me, that was the first evidence. Apparently, this isn\u2019t permanent, so there\u2019s something else that\u2019s going to happen. And at the same time, I\u2019m here. So how can I actually acknowledge where I\u2019m at? That yes, I am embodied, and this is a phenomenally rich world with lots of sensations, lots of things happening. And I can pay attention to that. And the more I pay attention to that and the more I feel myself grounded, the more I feel like this is something that feels always changing, always fleeting. Everything\u2019s always in flux. Everything\u2019s always in motion.<\/span><\/p>\n

And I think this motion is kind of inviting us, or even pushing us\u2014if I can use that word, pushing us\u2014or gently guiding us, I would say, gently guiding us towards a deeper, more expansive experience. And of course, when I think about Buddhism, we talk about emptiness and space. But within emptiness and space, there\u2019s this energy, and this energy is what I\u2019m actually experiencing and the ways energies are shaped into phenomena.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so when I say, \u201cThe world is not my home,\u201d I\u2019m also saying that there is another expression of the phenomenal world that I\u2019m actually trying to connect to and shape, in a way that feels much more freeing, much more liberating than the materiality and the hardness of the phenomenal world right now.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> So describe your true home to me.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

RO:<\/b> Free beyond the causes and conditions of suffering. Free beyond the binary of comfort and discomfort, up and down, black and white. It is the most simple and direct way of being, right? Just being. And not just being a person but being an experience.<\/span><\/p>\n

For me, my true home is me as this experience that\u2019s boundless, that\u2019s always fluid, that\u2019s always open, that feels connected to everything in the universe. Free from desire, free from aversion, free from all of this. Free from anything that I\u2019m shaping into a phenomenal world. Which all of this is completely beyond anything that I can fathom, but it\u2019s not completely beyond an urge or a longing. The longing is pointing me back to remembering something, and that remembering is of what I am beyond the sense of self, kind of situated within this phenomenal illusion.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> This notion of a New Saint, a contemporary saint, how would you say your description and the cartography that you create, if you will, of the New Saint is different from historical impressions we might have? Let\u2019s say, of the bodhisattva ideal in Buddhism. How are you updating this definition to make it relevant now?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

RO:<\/b> Yeah. Well, I think first, I\u2019m making it less\u2014more sexy. I think the bodhisattva tradition can seem like becoming a superhuman, or a Marvel or a DC superhero. It\u2019s like, \u201cI am going to learn how to fly. I\u2019m going to walk through walls,\u201d and everything. And that seems real fun and exciting.<\/span><\/p>\n

But for me, the New Saint\u2019s tradition isn\u2019t saying that you won\u2019t develop those capacities. But what it\u2019s saying is that the primary kind of ability that you\u2019re awakening is care, to cut through apathy and to see yourself as being a part of a sacred ecology of beings. And that our primary role is to care, but to love, and to choose love and care as the essential labor to be a part of this community.<\/span><\/p>\n

And it\u2019s also reframing the language of the bodhisattva in more contemporary terms. The bodhisattva isn\u2019t for another culture over there. It\u2019s not for white people. It\u2019s not for Asian practitioners and heritage practitioners. It can be for me. And more importantly, it\u2019s for people who look like me, Black and queer, or others who are transgender or gender-nonconforming, or people who are younger who feel as if they can\u2019t escape the intensity of the world, especially the intensity of a future that seems very different than previous generations.<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s a reminder of the importance of suffering here, right? Suffering not as something we\u2019re choosing to create an identity around, but suffering as something that we\u2019re just admitting is happening. Suffering, there is suffering, and there is a really profound way to take care of that suffering and to help others take care of that suffering as well. And to understand that we are not the suffering itself, but suffering is just an experience that we\u2019re going through until we remember what we are beyond the suffering.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> You write that the New Saint\u2014ready for this?\u2014is a prophet. And I thought, \u201cWhoa, OK, I\u2019m a New Saint. The New Saint is a prophet.\u201d Tell me about that, Lama Rod.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

RO:<\/b> Yeah. Well again, you have to cut through what we think a prophet is. What does a prophet do? Does a prophet tell the future? No, the prophet actually tells you what\u2019s happening right now. And the prophet tells the truth. And the truth is so hard that you want to kill the prophet.<\/span><\/p>\n

So a prophet is someone who deeply embodies clarity, and they\u2019re able to say, \u201cOK, this is what\u2019s happening. This is what\u2019s going down right now. And you may not like it, but this is happening.\u201d And I think that is very much what I understand a prophet to be, someone who\u2019s telling the truth.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> What do you think is the truth we need to hear right now, about right now?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

RO:<\/b> I think a big part of the truth that we need to hear right now is that we have to actually take care of our suffering, of our trauma, of our disappointment, of our hopelessness, of our hate. And stop pushing it away or weaponizing it against others who remind us of our suffering.<\/span><\/p>\n

I think so much of the legislation right now, particularly around trans legislation, is really about people really terrified of their own suffering, particularly the suffering of being put someplace and being reminded that they actually don\u2019t have to stay there, that there\u2019s another way to be that may be more fluid and open. But instead of doing the work to tend to that suffering and to choose a different way of being, it\u2019s a lot easier just to erase the people who are acting as mirrors for us.<\/span><\/p>\n

So in this case, a prophet is someone who\u2019s just living deeply authentically, who\u2019s responding to their own needs to live truthfully, and honestly, and openly, and how that authenticity is being erased or attempted to be erased by others who can\u2019t hold that for themselves.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

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 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> So taking care of our own suffering is true emotional labor. And I wonder if you could give us an example from your own experience. In <\/span>The New Saints<\/span><\/i>, you write about lots of your own stories and examples, but of how you\u2019ve been able to take care of some kind of form of suffering in your own life, potentially even in an ongoing way, what that looks like, so you can liberate that suffering and be the good New Saint that we\u2019re here talking about who\u2019s in the work. In the work.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

RO: <\/b>Yeah. Well, it\u2019s all, for me\u2014every single day, even now, it\u2019s always staying attuned to my own discomfort. What am I feeling right now, and what am I doing in response?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

So feeling that, feeling my desires, and actually holding space for those desires, which means that I disrupt the reactivity, and I choose to experience what these desires feel like. And that slows, of course, the reactivity down, if not completely disrupts it. And then I enter into the space of responsiveness. But I\u2019ve been doing this, I mean, I would say most of my life, but it wasn\u2019t until Buddhism where I had language to describe what I was doing, and I also got methods to go a lot deeper.<\/span><\/p>\n

In the book, I have a chapter about some of the past relationships that I\u2019ve been in, and what I\u2019ve done to, first, identify the suffering that I created for myself or the harm that I created for someone else, and then the ways in which I learned how to evolve from that through really investing in the practice of care for myself and for others. And of course, the chapter is called Letting Go of the Lover I Used to Be. So the connotation is that I\u2019m letting go of this really scared, traumatized, selfish kind of lover and opening to this way of loving that\u2019s restorative, that\u2019s generative, that\u2019s boundaried, that tells the truth about what\u2019s happening in my relationship with another lover and so forth. And that work that I\u2019ve done for myself has dramatically reduced the ways in which I have created harm or emotional labor for people that I\u2019ve been with romantically.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> You made this really important point, and you said it here in our conversation too\u2014and I just want to underscore it\u2014that when we take care of our own suffering, we\u2019re not asking other people all the time to take care of it for us. And I think the question I have is, for a New Saint, what would you say is their ongoing relationship with suffering? What does it look like, ongoing?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

RO:<\/b> Well, I will say that suffering, again, is an experience, right? It\u2019s not inherently who we are. So I see suffering, discomfort in all the ways that you may describe suffering, as being something that\u2019s just kind of passing through, that\u2019s passing through my body, passing through my mind. It\u2019s something that I can offer enough space to, so that the suffering doesn\u2019t become the main thing that\u2019s happening for me. Or another way of putting this, that I can suffer and still connect to other more expansive experiences like joy, or happiness, or gratitude at the same time.<\/span><\/p>\n

But suffering, too, is how we stay connected to others. This is how we develop a kind of sense of belonging. It\u2019s like, yes, I\u2019m experiencing suffering, and so is everyone else. And I believe that people are doing what they can to take care of that suffering, to be in relationship with it.<\/span><\/p>\n

Now, not all the time does that relationship to suffering actually get us free, or does it always help. But I think people are trying, even if it\u2019s bypassing. And so I understand, because I\u2019m in relationship to my suffering, that suffering is what people are working with. And so when I am moving through the world, my attitude, my core work is trying to be of help to alleviate that suffering, in the same way that I\u2019ve been doing for myself, also in the same way others have been doing for me as well in the past.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> You write about the New Saint as an ordinary human being. We\u2019ve talked about the prophet, we\u2019ve talked about in touch with\u2014and it\u2019s an ordinary human being. Why is it important to emphasize that?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

RO:<\/b> Well, it\u2019s funny. In my world, that is ordinary for people to have a relationship to the unseen. But I know in general, that\u2019s very different. But it becomes ordinary, and it has to be ordinary because it has to be accessible. Becoming a New Saint can\u2019t be this extraordinary thing that only the chosen few can obtain. The path of the New Saint has to be something that anyone can choose, right? Anyone who\u2019s committed to caring, anyone who wants to be in relationship to their suffering, anyone who wants to help, this path becomes open and accessible. And to let go of this idea that you\u2019ll become a superhuman. But instead, I want people to know that you\u2019ll become human. Humanness is my goal, to be more connected, to be grounded, to be in my body, to feel like I belong to people, to feel like I belong in the world, and to ultimately have this ethic that so much of my role is to really engage in this economy of love and care. Not over-accumulation, not materialism, not whatever, all the stuff that we\u2019re doing, but to essentially just love and be loved. That\u2019s it.<\/span><\/p>\n

Of course, anyone who really works with love, who\u2019s trying to embody love\u2014yeah, this may sound extraordinary. But I think this is what it means to be human, is to be loved and to express love.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> You offer lots of powerful practices sprinkled throughout <\/span>The New Saints<\/span><\/i>. And one of them that I liked a lot\u2014maybe because it\u2019s something that will nourish me, that I need\u2014had to do with receiving love. And I wonder, could we just do that together right here as a listenership? Could we receive love together? Could you take us into it?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

RO:<\/b> Yeah, absolutely.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Let\u2019s do it. Let\u2019s receive some love.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

RO:<\/b> And the practice in the book is just a very general practice that can be the root of any other practice you want to add to it. But when I begin opening into and receiving love, first and foremost, I just develop an awareness of the seat under me or the floor under me. I just want to feel supported, first of all. So I\u2019m sitting down right now, so I feel the seat rising to hold me and to hold my body.<\/span><\/p>\n

And even now, I can open to the care and the love of the seat. Something doesn\u2019t have to be conscious or alive for me to feel care from it. So as you\u2019re moving through this, just experiment, what does it feel like to be cared for by the seat that you\u2019re sitting on, or by the ground under you if you\u2019re standing or lying down? And just to tell yourself, \u201cI am being cared for by the seat.\u201d And for me, that\u2019s so exciting.<\/span><\/p>\n

But to go even further, I reflect and I invite you also to reflect on a time in your life where you felt someone really loving you. So someone or something. So this can be a person, a pet. If we want to talk about the unseen world sometimes, we feel deeply loved by our ancestors, or our guides, or a deity, or even a Buddha.<\/span><\/p>\n

So just remembering that experience of being loved and cared for. What was that experience? What was the moment? That moment when someone or something really saw you, they were holding space for you, they were doing emotional labor for you, they helped you. You were in distress, and this person just showed up. What does that feel like to receive that?<\/span><\/p>\n

And sometimes, I like to imagine that this receiving of care from this benefactor, from our past, it feels like sometimes energy kind of flowing down through the top of my head, down into my heart center. And my heart center begins to be filled with this energy of care and love. And slowly, that love, that care welling up in my heart center begins to stream through the rest of my body, and filling up the rest of my body as well as my mind with this energy of deep care and love from this benefactor. And I just sit in this.<\/span><\/p>\n

And for many of us, this may feel like a difficult experience, because this experience of love is really beginning to water and take care of these parts of our experiences that are just deeply neglected. And parts of these experiences are old memories or traumas that have not been touched and taken care of by deep care and love.<\/span><\/p>\n

So I try not to force anything in this stage of practice, but just allowing this expression of love and care to just tend to these difficult experiences, and letting these experiences be saturated by this love and care.<\/span><\/p>\n

And to even go further, in my practice, I like to imagine that all the beings in the universe are loving me right now, that they want me to be safe, and happy, and resourced, and free. And I try to hold as much of this care and love as possible.<\/span><\/p>\n

And I do begin to feel a shift in my body and in my mind. I feel more space. I feel as if the material of my mind, thoughts and emotions, are much more fluid. I feel everything as experiences, not as inherently who I am. And I feel connected. I feel like I belong.<\/span><\/p>\n

And there is emotional labor happening for me. I feel as if this energy of love is really beginning to call forth some maybe deeply buried sadness. And I feel that sadness coming up, because it has the conditions to arise, and I\u2019m in a position where I can just hold space for it, notice it, experience it, and then let it go.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

So everything around me is loving me, wanting me to be safe and free and happy.<\/span><\/p>\n

And when you\u2019re ready, shifting your attention back to the seat, or the floor, or under you. Allowing the seat, the floor to rise, to hold you, to ground you. Feeling the weight of your body, really surrendering to being held.<\/span><\/p>\n

And then when you\u2019re ready, just beginning to just offer some really slow, gentle movement back into your body, whatever feels appropriate. And maybe moving through a few cleansing breaths, which for me means inhaling deeply into my nose and exhaling out of my mouth. And as I exhale, just imagining releasing any energy that feels stuck, or heavy, or rigid, and just bringing this kind of life and movement back into my body.<\/span><\/p>\n

And even though we\u2019ve only been practicing a couple of minutes, I think that practices like this can really shift a lot of energy. So we just can\u2019t run out of the practice, but take our time to warm up again, to stretch, to breathe. Maybe even having a sip of water as well is helpful.<\/span><\/p>\n

And this is such an important practice to do as much as possible, considering the overwhelming amount of vicarious trauma and grief that\u2019s being radiated into the space around us. It\u2019s easy to just keep absorbing this energy without having space to release, and this practice can help you really release a lot of this energy.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Gorgeous, simple, accessible. I really appreciate that, Lama Rod. I\u2019m sure our listeners did too.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

It brings up a question for me, which is, I think that this whole notion of awakened care and feeling the whole universe loving us, and then our ability to channel that love, to transfer that love to others, that I think is easy for people to understand. There\u2019s another notion, though, where you talk about the warriorship of the New Saint, and you even go so far as to introduce this idea of spiritual warfare. And I wonder if you can explain that and talk about how that connects, if you will, to all of this love and care. And now, we\u2019re warriors engaging in spiritual warfare. What do you mean?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

RO:<\/b> Well, I think there are different ways to understand spiritual warfare and being spiritual warriors. The bodhisattva is actually translated as \u201cspiritual warrior\u201d as well. So that\u2019s not something I\u2019ve necessarily made up, but just a direct translation from the tradition.<\/span><\/p>\n

But when I talk about warriorship, I\u2019m saying that there\u2019s something I want to see happen in the world. Even more concrete, I want to see an end to systemic racism. And systemic racism won\u2019t go away because I ask it to, but it takes a kind of really, very clear vision of how to disrupt systemic racism. And that means we have to go against the kinds of hate that other people weaponize against us, who are themselves really deeply invested in maintaining systemic racism because of the privileges and the benefit they get out of the system.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so part of spiritual warfare setting boundaries is like, \u201cNo, this can\u2019t happen anymore.\u201d And that\u2019s going to create tension. And that tension is something that we have to respond to. We have to choose how to respond to that. How are we going to organize? How are we going to act? How are we going to channel this energy, and shape this energy, and shift this energy to bring about benefit for people who are most marginalized by this?<\/span><\/p>\n

But this also means that we actually have to fight. I come from an ancestry where, again, no one gave us resources because we asked. We fought for what we had. We organized. We were engaged in civil disobedience. We had to protect ourselves. This is also a part of spiritual warfare.<\/span><\/p>\n

But another piece of this too, for me, is that this time is definitely a time of spiritual warfare, because this is about us having to do the labor of figuring out who and what we are. And for me, that is spiritual labor. I have to choose my most authentic, less violent, and most loving and compassionate expression of who I am right now. And that is like a light that begins to be expressed against the darkness of delusion, or hate, or avoidance. And that can feel, again, very tense. There\u2019s a lot of tension there.<\/span><\/p>\n

So I think that this time, yes, it\u2019s also a time of political warfare, right? Yes, there\u2019s an intense political struggle going on. But beneath that political struggle is the spiritual struggle of figuring out who we are that is not based upon isolation, and selfishness, and hate against others that we don\u2019t understand as well. I think a lot of people are really uncomfortable with warfare language.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> I am. I am. I notice I\u2019m comfortable with \u201cactivism\u201d and \u201cmaking a change\u201d and \u201cdisruption.\u201d But when I hear the W-A-R word, I feel a lot of tension inside me, and I\u2019m looking for clarification.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

RO:<\/b> Yeah. Well, I think that I come from people who had to fight, literally had to fight, who continue to have to fight. And I think not having to fight to get the resources you need is a particular kind of privilege. And I think that people who have that privilege can unjustly criticize those of us who feel as if we have to choose fighting to stay alive. And I grew up in certain circumstances where it was physically dangerous to be in. I had to learn how to fight, or I actually wouldn\u2019t be here right now. But yeah.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> I think this is very helpful, Lama Rod. So I would ask a clarifying question, which is, how does the New Saint engage in spiritual warfare in such a way that they\u2019re not creating unnecessary harm, but doing the work of liberation?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

RO:<\/b> Yeah, absolutely. Well, that\u2019s it. This struggle, this fight is about getting free and getting others free. We can hold our choices to fight within love. And that love means that I am only doing this because\u2014I\u2019m not trying to get back at someone. I don\u2019t want people to suffer in the same way that I have suffered, but there are people who are out of control, and this choosing of fighting is a way that I have to set a boundary that they can understand.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Can you give me an example of spiritual warfare, what it means to you, and make it explicit for me?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

RO:<\/b> For me, again, I stated earlier just being in the world, there\u2019s a lot of vicarious trauma and fear and everything. And for me, I have to be out in the world. I have to be very clear about when I\u2019m around people, acknowledging what they\u2019re experiencing because I can feel it. I can feel their aggression. I can feel people\u2019s discomfort around me as this big Black man walking through the world and what that means, and the meaning that people project onto my body. That has put my life in danger a couple of different times, especially with the police.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so knowing that, then I can actually set a lot of kinds of different boundaries, energetic boundaries. I can make choices about the places that I go and don\u2019t go. I can be aware of how people are registering me and then make different choices in a way that can communicates that I\u2019m not here to hurt. That\u2019s ongoing emotional labor that me as a Black man is having to do all the time whenever I\u2019m out in public, given my size on top of that.<\/span><\/p>\n

I am at war against misunderstanding, hate. And sometimes, if my actual physical space is being threatened by someone else\u2019s violence, then I actually have to protect myself, physically sometimes. Physically, of course, it\u2019s the last thing that I\u2019m choosing.<\/span><\/p>\n

But there\u2019s another kind of spiritual warfare, that again, in my communities I\u2019m a part of is something that\u2019s really common. But there\u2019s definitely a warfare against light and dark. There are definitely energies and experiences in this life that actually are trying to actively harm us.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Can you tell me more about that, to help educate me on that?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

RO:<\/b> Yeah, absolutely. There are dark forces like demons. There are beings who actually are not situated in love. And these beings of course can be human, but can also be unseen beings, spirits, and so forth in the world around us who want to harm us actively. And therefore, I can choose different kinds of spiritual methods, not just including meditations and so forth, but also mantras, also different kinds of magic. I say a lot of prayers. I\u2019m deeply connected to guides around me that help me to\u2014well, they help to protect me, right? And I\u2019m consciously thinking about that as I move through the world about the ways in which I am opening to being protected from these forces that are just out here trying to hurt me.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Tell me more how you protect yourself. What kinds of prayers do you say to create protection?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

RO:<\/b> I pray to Tara, who\u2019s the female Buddha of compassion. Very strong protecting energy, and that protecting energy is direct compassion, which is a very powerful force that we use.<\/span><\/p>\n

I have my ancestors protect me. My actual familial ancestors are around me. There are deities that I practice with that offer protection. And this protection, yes, energetic protection, like these protective kind of fields around us that help to deter the ways in which harmful energies are being directed towards us as well.<\/span><\/p>\n

But ultimately, I\u2019m protected by clarity. I\u2019m just getting clear about what\u2019s happening, and how to move through the world, and how to interact with people, and how to avoid the places I don\u2019t need to go. And I also get clear about the work that I\u2019m doing. I don\u2019t have to do all the work in the world. I do the work that I need to do, and that frees up a lot of extra energy to help others.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> In <\/span>The New Saints<\/span><\/i>, you refer to this notion of clarity a lot. And I thought, \u201cOK, when I talk to Lama Rod, I\u2019m going to get more clear about clarity.\u201d And how do you, Lama Rod, bring clarity into your life? How do you invoke it? How do you create more of it?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

RO:<\/b> Yeah. Well, \u201cclarity\u201d is my word for \u201cwisdom.\u201d And I use \u201cclarity\u201d on purpose, because I think \u201cwisdom\u201d can be kind of convoluted. So when I use the word \u201cclear,\u201d I\u2019m practicing seeing what\u2019s happening as clearly as possible. This is what\u2019s happening. This is what I\u2019m feeling. This is what I\u2019m experiencing. These are the sensations. These are the dynamics that are happening.<\/span><\/p>\n

First of all, this practice is really about deep acceptance. And acceptance doesn\u2019t mean condoning or celebrating. It means that you just tell the truth, as much of the truth as you can tell in the moment. Yeah, this is happening, this just happened, this needs to happen. And that clarity actually helps me to respond in a way that\u2019s really much more directed.<\/span><\/p>\n

So when I say \u201cdirected response,\u201d it\u2019s like no, this response is really geared towards what\u2019s happening, and creating a certain kind of situation through this response, or changing something through this response directly.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> All right, one more clarifying question here, which is, I feel like the notion of the New Saint and the New Saint\u2019s commitment to awakened care, I feel like I understand that. I understand that. The notion of the New Saint\u2019s commitment to spiritual warriorship, I don\u2019t think I\u2019m as clear about in terms of what\u2019s actually required? What does it take besides embodying awakened care? What do I actually have to commit to as part of the path of the New Saint?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

RO:<\/b> Well, you have to commit to wanting to get free from suffering, first and foremost. I have to understand that this experience of discomfort is something that I can actually transcend, and limit, and reduce, and I want to make choices to reduce that. Not just for myself, but I also have to believe that all beings deserve to be free from suffering. And so you have to commit to that.<\/span><\/p>\n

But again, the ultimate commitment that we\u2019re engaging in is caring, because I don\u2019t think a lot of people actually give a shit. And I think every time something happens in the world, like the war over in Palestine, between Israel and Palestine, there\u2019s a lot of people who just do not care. There\u2019s a lot of people who actually do not know what\u2019s happening.<\/span><\/p>\n

For me, it\u2019s caring about everything and everyone. It doesn\u2019t mean that I know what to do. It doesn\u2019t mean I know what to say, or it doesn\u2019t mean that I even understand what\u2019s happening. But it means that I know that there are people suffering. And to whatever extent I can, I just want to wish them an end to that suffering in a way that\u2019s appropriate for everyone involved. If we can just get to that, I think we would be seeing a very different world right now.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> You end <\/span>The New Saints<\/span><\/i> on an important note that I\u2019d also like to end our conversation on, which is this notion of consenting to this work. Understanding the work, but then consenting to it. What does that mean to you, to consent to the work of being a New Saint?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

RO:<\/b> You have to choose it. It\u2019s not something I can choose for you. It\u2019s not something I can guilt you into doing, right? It\u2019s something that you\u2019re choosing when you put everything in front of you, when you put everything on the table and say, \u201cThis is what I\u2019m going to do. Because if I choose this, then I can take ownership of this and really develop a deeper sense of agency that\u2019s about me, and my ethics, and about getting people free.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

There are a lot of people who are working and doing this work of liberation who haven\u2019t decided that they want to be free, because to get free means that we have to leave behind or let go of all the stuff that we\u2019ve built an identity in and around. \u201cThis is who I am.\u201d So if I choose to get free, that means that this idea of who I am will shift. And a lot of people actually don\u2019t want to take that risk, because they actually don\u2019t know what\u2019s beyond the sense of identity that they\u2019ve established.<\/span><\/p>\n

But there\u2019s all a risk. Freedom is a risk, because it begins this journey that you\u2019re just negotiating second by second. And this journey is going to look somewhat differently for everyone as well. But at the end of the day, we have to choose this for ourselves. We can\u2019t get dragged to freedom.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> You say that the New Saint isn\u2019t fearless, because of the risks we have to take, the unknown we have to step into.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

RO:<\/b> Yeah, we\u2019re full of fear. But again, you take care of the fear like you take care of everything else. Every time I leave the house, I\u2019m afraid. And I feel the fear of what it means to leave the house and walk down the street. And it\u2019s OK, because I can connect to the love that\u2019s always being expressed towards me not just from unseen beings, but just from actual people who want me to be in the world, who love me, who want me to have access to resources that I need.<\/span><\/p>\n

So the fear is just one experience that I\u2019m having, right? But I\u2019m still paying attention to it. I\u2019m still taking care of it, but it doesn\u2019t stand in my way like it used to.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> I\u2019ve been talking with Lama Rod Owens. He\u2019s the author of the new book\u2014it\u2019s called <\/span>The New Saints: From Broken Hearts to Spiritual Warriors<\/span><\/i>. And I just want to take a moment to bow to all of the emotional labor, Lama Rod, that you\u2019re doing in your spiritual work that has so much of a fountain of benefit for so many people, including me. So thank you so much, so much, Lama Rod.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

RO:<\/b> Thank you. Thank you. That means so much. Thank you.<\/span><\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Watch <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i> on video, and participate in the aftershow Q&A session with our guests. Come join us on Sounds True One, a new membership community featuring award-winning original shows, live classes, community learning, guided meditations, and more, with the leading wisdom teachers of our time. Use promo code PODCAST to get your first month free. You can learn more at join.soundstrue.com. Sounds True: waking up the world.<\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"template":"","meta":{"_expiration-date-status":"","_expiration-date":0,"_expiration-date-type":"","_expiration-date-categories":[],"_expiration-date-options":[]},"class_list":["post-20454","transcript","type-transcript","status-publish","hentry"],"yoast_head":"\nThe Path Of The New Saint - Transcript | Sounds True<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with The Path Of The New Saint. 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