{"id":20537,"date":"2024-01-10T13:26:12","date_gmt":"2024-01-10T20:26:12","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?post_type=transcript&p=20537"},"modified":"2024-01-10T13:26:12","modified_gmt":"2024-01-10T20:26:12","slug":"turning-towards-whats-difficult-2","status":"publish","type":"transcript","link":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/turning-towards-whats-difficult-2\/","title":{"rendered":"Turning Towards What’s Difficult"},"content":{"rendered":"
\"image_print\"Print Transcript<\/span><\/a><\/div>

Tami Simon:<\/b> Hello, friends. My name\u2019s Tami Simon and I\u2019m the founder of Sounds True, and I want to welcome you to the Sounds True podcast, <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>. I also want to take a moment to introduce you to Sounds True\u2019s new membership community and digital platform. It\u2019s called Sounds True One. Sounds True One features original, premium, transformational docuseries, community events, classes to start your day and relax in the evening, special weekly live shows\u2014including a video version of <\/span>Insights at the Edge <\/span><\/i>with an after-show community question-and-answer session with featured guests. I hope you\u2019ll come join us, explore, come have fun with us, and connect with others. You can learn more at join.soundstrue.com.<\/span><\/p>\n

I also want to take a moment and introduce you to the Sounds True Foundation, our nonprofit that creates equitable access to transformational tools and teachings. You can learn more at soundstruefoundation.org. And in advance, thank you for your support.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

You\u2019re listening to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>. Today is a rebroadcast of one of my favorite episodes. I hope you enjoy.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Today my guest is Llama Tsultrim Allione. Lama Tsultrim is an author, an internationally known Buddhist teacher, and the founder of Tara Mandala, a retreat center in Pagosa Springs, Colorado. Lama Tsultrim was the first American woman to be ordained as a Tibetan nun by His Holiness the 16th Karmapa. At the age of 26, after four years as a nun, she returned her monastic vows, married, and raised three children. With Sounds True, Lama Tsultrim has created several programs, including\u00a0<\/span>The Mandala of the Enlightened Feminine<\/span><\/i>\u00a0and\u00a0<\/span>Cutting Through Fear,<\/span><\/i>\u00a0where she shares a process that can help meet and release what the ancient Tibetans call \u201cdemons, fears, and other unhelpful emotions and obsessions.\u201d In this episode of\u00a0<\/span>Insights at the Edge,<\/span><\/i>\u00a0Lama Tsultrim and I spoke about the Sacred Feminine within Buddhism and how to understand the Sacred Feminine without creating duality. We talked about the 11th century Tibetan yogini and originator of the practice of Ch\u00f6d, Machig Labdr\u00f6n, and about Lama Tsultrim\u2019s sudden loss of her husband David just a couple of years ago, and her journey through grief and what she\u2019s learned through the process. Here\u2019s my conversation with Lama Tsultrim Allione.<\/span><\/p>\n

Lama Tsultrim, to begin with, I want to help orient our listeners a bit to who you are as a Lama and the strand of teaching that you\u2019re bringing into the world. I know from your history that early in your life, in your 20s, you had a passionate interest in discovering the women teachers within Tibetan Buddhism, and I wonder if you can talk a little bit about that, that time in your life and this interest and real devotion, actually, in your life to find who are the women and how can I study from them?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Lama Tsultrim Allione:<\/b>\u00a0Yes. That search really came out of the death of my daughter. I had a daughter who was a twin who died of sudden infant death. And I had been a Buddhist nun, I was ordained in 1970 by the 16th Karmapa. And then [I\u2019d] been a nun for about four years and then disrobed and had four children, the first two and then these twins. So the girl of the boy\/girl twin dyad, Chiara, died of sudden infant death in 1980. I had been, obviously, a serious practitioner because I was a nun and then had transitioned into being a mother. And really, I couldn\u2019t find any stories about women who were mothers who were serious Buddhists. It was either nuns or it was the\u00a0<\/span>milarepa<\/span><\/i>\u00a0songs about how unfortunate it was to have a female body and how bad women were and how they were always gossiping and lazy and so on.<\/span><\/p>\n

When Chiara died, I really felt I really had to find some stories that could help me transition through that situation, and so that set me off on a search that became my first book,\u00a0<\/span>Women of Wisdom.<\/span><\/i>\u00a0In the process of finding the stories and then doing the research for the introduction, I became aware that this need for women\u2019s stories and for the Sacred Feminine was not unique to Buddhism but was really a worldwide need and a worldwide search, that there were many other women doing this at that time\u2014finding things and also looking historically at earlier periods like the neolithic time when there was a goddess culture and so on.<\/span><\/p>\n

So, writing the introduction for\u00a0<\/span>Women of Wisdom,<\/span><\/i>\u00a0I met some of the women and then I became aware of their research. So what grew out of that for me was not only finding the stories that I needed and of course the research itself was healing for me, but also recognizing the lack of the feminine in the world\u2014the Sacred Feminine. And of course, the feminist movement was already happening and very important, and there was this spiritual piece of that that was happening as well. So I\u2019m still passionately involved with that. It has not been easy within the Buddhist patriarchy, if you will, and of course it is one [thing] to do this, and at the same time maintain my relationships within the Tibetan Buddhist world because I\u2019ve never wanted to leave it. I love it. I\u2019m dedicated and actual quite a traditional teacher. So I\u2019ve had to blend this interest and passion and belief in the absolute necessity for the world right now, that we get the feminine wisdom back, with my traditional practices and so on.<\/span><\/p>\n

Yeah, it\u2019s kind of an interesting story, what I\u2019ve been through in that world and in that process, and sort of what has been happening lately to do with that.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b>\u00a0Yes, tell me. I\u2019d be curious.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

LT:<\/b>\u00a0Well, so this began, I wrote that book in the early 80\u2019s. It came out in 1984,\u00a0<\/span>Women of Wisdom.<\/span><\/i>\u00a0Then I started teaching. Then in the late 9\u2019s I had already been teaching for quite awhile and often taught about the Sacred Feminine and about the\u00a0<\/span>dakini<\/span><\/i>\u00a0principle in Buddhism and so on. As I said, [I] was aware of this larger scope of that work that was beyond Buddhism and was really a worldwide movement. So in the late 90s, I got a letter from my teacher, my lama, saying \u201cYou\u2019re too feminist. Feminism is dualistic.\u201d And also, he objected to my\u2014I guess, the use of psychology with Buddhism, or the overlays of psychology and Buddhism and emotional work because I felt that was a big missing piece in Buddhism and so I had included that in my teaching and in my work.<\/span><\/p>\n

So I received this letter and he said, \u201cI think you should not come to this next training for teachers.\u201d I had been the first and the only teacher that he had authorized at that point. So obviously this was very shocking.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b>\u00a0Yes. Quite a blow up!<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

LT:<\/b>\u00a0Yes. I actually went into physical shock when I got this letter. So the upshot was that I went into a year-long solitary retreat, which was, I think, shortly after I last saw you. So I went into that retreat in 2001 [through] 2002. Part of what I wanted to do in that retreat was sit with this question by myself without any interference from the outside, and really see, is this important or is this dualistic? Is the return of the sacred feminism, or the Sacred Feminine\u2014and I guess you could say sacred feminism, really\u2014is that important or is it dualistic? So I wanted to sit with that question, and of course I was doing other practices and so on\u2014I wasn\u2019t just sitting for a year, thinking about that.<\/span><\/p>\n

What happened in the retreat was 9\/11 occurred during that retreat. So of course I didn\u2019t see the footage, but I heard about it because my husband brought me my food and he told me. My reaction to it was, where\u2019s the feminine here, in the lives of these men who did this, and then also, in the reaction from the United States? I just found a complete lack of it in both those situations. So that influenced me to recommit to yes, this is important, and yes, this is relevant! And no, it\u2019s no more dualistic than the 2,500 years of patriarchy in Buddhism! And really, that what I was looking for\u2014it was not dualistic, it was integration; it was the divine union of masculine and feminine and a balance of those energies which we all have within us, whether we\u2019re genetically male or female or transgender. Whatever we are, we are working with those energies within ourselves. We need to honor those, and the imbalance was also destructive, is also destructive to men.<\/span><\/p>\n

So I made the decision to recommit to that and to sit with the results of whatever that would be, that I knew that I would probably sacrifice the relationship with my teacher who had been my teacher for 18 years. And I got the conviction and the courage to do that. It retrospect it\u2019s very easy to see, \u201cOh yes, of course you should do that,\u201d you know? But in the time and that moment, it was absolutely a grueling decision. I had so much self-doubt about myself\u2014was I seeing things accurately or was there some distortion? So anyway, I did make that step.<\/span><\/p>\n

Then, once I had taken that decision and I began to teach from having made that decision and to lead Tara Mandala\u2014which is my center, as you know, in southern Colorado\u2014from taking my seat with an authentic sense of what I believed and not, for really the first time in my life, looking always to my lamas for the answers. You know\u2014\u201cHow should I do this?\u201d And \u201cWhat should I do?\u201d Rinpoche this, and Rinpoche that. And you have to realize that I got involved with this when I was 19 years old. I was ordained at 22. So I was very steeped in that culture and that was so difficult to begin to make my own decisions. But the result, the upshot of it, was that Tara Mandala began to really flourish in an amazing way, and within the last 10 years has been completely built out. We\u2019ve raised something like 6 million, 500 thousand dollars for Tara Mandala. There\u2019s a three-story mandala temple dedicated to the Sacred Feminine in Buddhism now, with life size statues of the 21\u00a0<\/span>taras<\/span><\/i>\u00a0and so on.<\/span><\/p>\n

What happened was, like the floodgates just opened and the support just poured in, and so many people had been waiting for me to do this, to take my seat, something authentic. The interesting thing that has happened very recently in the last year, is that this teacher that I was involved with\u2014and his name is Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, Ch\u00f6gyal Namkhai Norbu\u2014in the past year, he has invited me to come and teach at his centers and teach this work that he had been so resistant to before, and now this year, he\u2019s coming to Tara Mandala to teach.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b>\u00a0Wonderful! What your story really underscores, I think\u2014[there are] many things, but the one that is impressed upon at this moment that I\u2019m really feeling is, how when we\u2019re really to individuate, if you will, or stand up to what we see as authority figures or power, how our own life can really blossom when we\u2019re willing to take that stand. But how, how courageous it is to do that, and [how] scary it is for all of us.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

LT:<\/b>\u00a0Yes. Very difficult. And you have to be sure you\u2019re ready. But by then, by that time\u2014let\u2019s see, I was 54 at that time\u2014so it was time to grow up. It was time to leave the father\u2019s house, even though the father was so wonderful and I had such deep, abiding respect for him. Even the decision that I had to kind of go on my own was, there was never any lack of respect or cherishing of that being and that relationship. So it was incredibly hard to do. In retrospect again, it seems sort of obvious that of course you have to do that but at that same time, I just want to kind of speak out to anyone who\u2019s listening to us and our conversation and say, you really need to trust yourself. In order to trust yourself, you have to understand what your real values are, and then be authentic with those. It\u2019s not necessarily going to be easy, and you\u2019re not going to get applause and you may get a lot of criticism, but if you don\u2019t do that, you won\u2019t be living authentically.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b>\u00a0Now, I\u2019m curious, Lama Tsultrim, you talked about the temple devoted to the Sacred Feminine at Tara Mandala. How is it that you understand the Sacred Feminine in a way that doesn\u2019t create a sense of polarization or duality?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

LT:<\/b>\u00a0Well, I think of divine union like the\u00a0<\/span>yab-yum<\/span><\/i>\u00a0model that is really sort of the classic image of Tantra\u2014the union of masculine and feminine. So that is actually the primary metaphor of Tantra, is that union. It became sort of commercialized as like, \u201cThis is sort of sacred sex,\u201d and \u201cThis is how we can have sex and somehow be spiritual,\u201d but really that symbolism, it is that.<\/span><\/p>\n

And Tantra does involve physicality and sacred sexuality, but in that dyad, the feminine is the primordial matrix of awakened space. So, she is pure potential, and yet, no\u00a0<\/span>thing<\/span><\/i>\u00a0in herself. So one of the ways that she is described is \u201cthe pregnant zero.\u201d So this is\u00a0<\/span>samantabhadri<\/span><\/i>\u00a0or\u00a0<\/span>prajnaparamita,<\/span><\/i>\u00a0it\u2019s the\u00a0<\/span>dharmakaya<\/span><\/i>\u00a0level of the Sacred Feminine. So what I mean by dharmkaya is the level beyond or preceding form. So if this, this is also called the Great Mother. So this space, this sort of pregnant potential, then, is recognized by the consciousness\u2014and that turning of consciousness to recognize its true condition, which is the ground of being, the Great Mother of pure potential, emptiness\u2014that is the masculine, samantabhadra. Samantabhadra is within each of us, the awareness that turns to look at itself, and the itself that it looks at, is the feminine.<\/span><\/p>\n

So when that consciousness and reunifies with its true condition, that is the moment of yab-yum. That\u2019s the union of masculine and feminine at that level, at dharmakaya. At the level of\u00a0<\/span>sambhogakaya,<\/span><\/i>\u00a0which is the luminous expression of that pure potential, into light, into radiance, and it\u2019s manifest[ed] in the form of the mandalas and also deities within the Tibetan Buddhist pantheon. All those deities are sambhogakaya. So the feminine at that level is, for example, Green Tara or White Tara or the five\u00a0<\/span>dakinis.<\/span><\/i>\u00a0That\u2019s all sambhogakaya. And in sambhogakaya there\u2019s masculine and feminine deities. So what the feminine is there, represents\u00a0<\/span>prajna,<\/span><\/i>\u00a0or cherub in Tibetan wisdom, and the masculine is skillful means, or skillful means and compassion. So once again, you have this dyad of energy which is the union of skillful means and wisdom.<\/span><\/p>\n

When I see for example, in a very practical sense for example at Tara Mandala, we have men and women. And women have certain capacities and certain tendencies and certain energies, and men have certain capacities and tendencies and energies. And women, also within themselves have masculine aspects and feminine aspects, and the same for the men. And what we have at the level of sambhogakaya is this union of wisdom and skillful means. So when you work with the deities as a tantric practitioner, you might be a male who is given the\u00a0<\/span>yidam<\/span><\/i>\u00a0of Tara. So you develop, as a man, you develop those qualities of Tara, of compassion and active compassion and so on.<\/span><\/p>\n

As a woman, you might get a male deity like say, [unintelligible] or Avalokiteshvara, and then you would develop those qualities within yourself through the practice, through identification, which is the main way that the deities are used. You identify with these luminous beings and then your being gradually begins to become luminous, almost in a literal sense that your cells become light through really deep practice with sambhogakaya energies.<\/span><\/p>\n

So when we have something like the temple at Tara Mandala, we have the 21 Taras in the temple\u2014life size statues. Then we have on the shrine, the great mother Prajnaparamita. Then we have Machig Labdr\u00f6n as the main statue, and she\u2019s\u00a0<\/span>nirmanakaya.<\/span><\/i>\u00a0So nirmanakaya is this dimension that you and I are in. We have bodies. We\u2019re ordinary beings and we have limits in what we can perceive and maybe we can visualize sabhogakaya but we can\u2019t actually see it. Maybe we can touch on dharmakaya and learn to rest in it, but it\u2019s not our normal condition. So for example, Machig Labdr\u00f6n is a woman and she was an 11th century yogini. She\u2019s another aspect of the feminine.<\/span><\/p>\n

So in a way, it\u2019s almost like, if we\u2019re talking about these three levels of feminine, it\u2019s almost like water, where you have the liquid water, you have steam, and then you have ice. It\u2019s all water; it\u2019s all H2O, but it\u2019s in different levels of density and so all of those are working within the feminine.<\/span><\/p>\n

So your question really was about OK, we\u2019ll if you\u2019re this involved with the feminine, how do you avoid going off balance or polarization or a degrading of the masculine as you\u2019re elevating the feminine? The way that I see that is that we have such a lack of the feminine, and even any knowledge of what that is, inside ourselves, inside our culture, because it\u2019s been de-valued for so long that part of what we\u2019re doing here is really exploring what that is within ourselves and within our practice and in the men and women who are here. And there are actually quite a lot of men at Tara Mandala, or involved with Tara Mandala and I also teach the sacred, the yab-yum practice, sacred sexuality, and also the union that I just spoke of. I think it\u2019s a sense of more of like turning the lens and focusing on the Sacred Feminine, just to see, OK, what is this? Who is She? Where has She been? What is this?<\/span><\/p>\n

So bringing that forth, discovering it and at the same time, then, not feeling that this should dominate or this should take over, but rather that we need to find out who She is and then bring that into the room, into the board room, into the discussion or into the lives of all of us\u2014of our families, of our companies, our organizations\u2014and bring that voice of the feminine.<\/span><\/p>\n

And that\u2019s what I felt was lacking in 2001. If you think of those men, who did that to the Twin Towers and who were their mothers? Who were their sisters? What was their relationship to their wives? Where\u2019s the feminine there? So what if they had had a wife, or a mother, whose voice was that an equal voice in that family to the father? How different would their decisions have been? Does that answer your question? It\u2019s kind of a long\u2026<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b>\u00a0It answers it beautifully. It sounds to me that the inspiration that you have\u2014you mentioned \u201ctaking your seat\u201d\u2014and in that it\u2019s to bring balance, or to bring forward a balance to sit in that.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

LT:<\/b>\u00a0Exactly.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b>\u00a0Now you mentioned Machig Labdr\u00f6n, and one of the things that I learned in preparing for this conversation today is that you were named as an emanation of this 11th century Tibetan yogini. I\u2019d love to know more what that means, to be an emanation of a person who lived and taught historically in a different century. What does that mean, to be an emanation?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

LT:<\/b>\u00a0Well, I think if we take out sort of the limitations that we normally think about what a person is\u2014 for example, you\u2019re Tami Simon. So, you have a mind stream which has been evolving over countless lifetimes. That mind stream, now, is in your body, and you identify your body and you have that name and so on. But that mind stream is going to go on when your current body is no longer functioning. So what is that mind stream, and how is that purified and how does that become beneficial and unencumbered and so on? And that\u2019s really what your path is. It\u2019s a process of unencumbering your innate, awake condition. So this is what Machig Labdr\u00f6n was. She unencumbered her mind stream through her practice, and also she was considered to be an emanation of Yeshe Tsogyal, so it wasn\u2019t like she started from nowhere, when she started\u2014she was already Yeshe Tsogyal.<\/span><\/p>\n

So in terms of what this means for me here [and] now in the 21st century, what does that mean really, you know? When it happened, I [asked,] \u201cWhat does that mean?\u201d And what I realized was that to me, the way I see it is that if I look back over the arc of my life, I have been dedicated to the teachings of Machig Labdr\u00f6n pretty much all of my adult life and taught the Ch\u00f6d practices, and I did the recording for Sounds True about that and so on. And that was a long time before I was recognized. But what does that mean? To me, I think of it like I\u2019m working for her, I\u2019m working for that mind stream of Machig that evolved in the 11th century that continues to manifest in the universe in various different ways.<\/span><\/p>\n

The importance of it now to me is that I find her teachings so amazingly modern and relevant to our situation today in the world. So I have been bringing that forth through my book\u00a0<\/span>Feeding Your Demons<\/span><\/i>\u00a0and audio programs and so on. I\u2019ve been bringing forth that to the best of my ability that stream of her luminous truth, her luminous vision and her wisdom. So to be an emanation, I don\u2019t feel like I am Machig Labdr\u00f6n. I couldn\u2019t possibly think that about myself. I really see myself as I\u2019m working for her. It\u2019s like that\u2019s my job in this life. I\u2019ve had that job and I\u2019ve basically been doing it my whole life, and in 2007, it was sort of like, \u201cOK, this is your job description [<\/span>laughs<\/span><\/i>]\u2014even though you\u2019ve been doing it your whole life, this is what you\u2019re supposed to be doing.\u201d Yeah, that\u2019s what I\u2019ve been doing!<\/span><\/p>\n

So when it happened in Tibet\u2014and it was a group of about 35 people that I was on pilgrimage with, and the name of the pilgrimage was \u201cIn the Footsteps of Machig Labdr\u00f6n,\u201d and I had been guided to do this in a vision that I\u2019d had in retreat the year before [in] October of 2006. Machig had come to me in my retreat cabin, and through a whole series of visions one night, had told me I had to collect her lineage and stabilize it at Tara Mandala. And it was urgent. She was so insistent on the urgency that I almost left retreat, and then I realized, no, once you set your retreat boundaries, you never leave.<\/span><\/p>\n

So I didn\u2019t leave then, but then that next year we went to Tibet and one of the places that we went was to her seat, and that\u2019s where this happened. And so afterwards, somebody said, \u201cWhat does that mean to you?\u201d Like what you just asked me. Of course, I was sort of still in shock from this whole thing happening. And then, what I said\u2014and I think this is true\u2014was, \u201cIt allows me to know what I know.\u201d So, I had always \u201cknown\u201d a lot of things, but I wouldn\u2019t really trust myself completely. And so when I say it allows me to know what I know, I think there\u2019s a lot of us that know things but we don\u2019t allow ourselves to know them. So that was the effect for me of the recognition.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b>\u00a0Now, when you say that you\u2019re working for Machig Labdr\u00f6n, I\u2019d be curious to know\u2014and I think this will also help our listeners become a bit familiar perhaps, with who this great yogini was and what the qualities and imperatives of what her \u201cmind stream\u201d are in our world today. What are you working for in working for Machig Labdr\u00f6n?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

LT:<\/b>\u00a0Well, her primary approach was moving toward what we normally avoid. And feeding, not fighting, those elements within ourselves and within our world. It\u2019s really an amazing paradigm shift, to move from the idea that I must protect myself from anything that threatens me and I must think of any strategies I can to protect myself, so I can be safe. That is the main job description for the ego, for the self-clinging ego. So that\u2019s what we do. We try to make sure that we\u2019re safe. What Machig said was, shift that. Instead of trying to protect yourself, offer yourself to that which you perceive as the enemy. Offer yourself as food. So, the actual practice that she\u2019s famous for is of course the Ch\u00f6d practice, in which you physically, or you mentally imagine that you physically offer your body.<\/span><\/p>\n

So what that means, then, is if we turn that and looked at it more say, in a family or in an organization or even within ourselves, we would look at OK, what are the threatening elements here, or the perceived problematic elements within me, within my family, within my business? And what if instead of trying to get rid of those things, or starve them or ignore them or attack them, what if I invited them to dinner? And I offered to feed them to complete satisfaction with myself, with my own body? So what that does is sort of twofold. One is, it undercuts that ego of the self, because what the self wants to do is preserve itself, and the body is the most central focus of the ego. So by offering it, you immediately\u2014you loosen it, you release it. And then it takes that, say if it\u2019s, say, your own demons\u2014 and a demon in that case would be a fear, or an addiction, or some sort of neurosis\u2014something that drains your energy, that\u2019s a good way to think about what your demons are.<\/span><\/p>\n

So let\u2019s say you take that element of yourself and you feed that. You personify it and then you feed it to your complete satisfaction. Then you\u2019re reversing the pattern of alienating and rejecting that part of yourself and fighting against it. And you\u2019re including it. What happens, say, within yourself, is that the psyche begins to become more integrated and less at unease with itself or battling against itself. If we look at that in a family\u2014you know, often in the family, there\u2019s the problematic person, and so everyone\u2019s focused on that person that\u2019s a problem. And say, then, you might invite that person to speak and to have their needs met. So then that element of the family begins to become integrated and then the family isn\u2019t split.<\/span><\/p>\n

So this is the teaching of Machig Labdr\u00f6n. Just to put it very succinctly, she said, \u201cOne \u2018take me, eat me\u2019 is worth a hundred thousand \u2018protect me, save me\u2019s\u2019.\u201d So it\u2019s this very different gestalt in terms of the energy to move toward the shadow, I guess you could say, more in a psychological sense, and to feed the shadow element, whether it\u2019s inside ourselves or in a group or in a collective situation. So what that does is create wholeness. So that\u2019s a very different model. And if we go back to 2011, for example, that situation, and we think about, what if we had tried to find out what were those elements that were attacking us? In what ways were we offending them? And was there a way to bring them to the table and integrate that element, rather than having it be so\u2026[set] to do what it did?<\/span><\/p>\n

I think we\u2019ve seen in a lot of diplomacy recently the situations where, for example, in Nepal, there was a whole Maoist element in Nepal that caused so many problems and then the Maoists were invited to the table and they\u2019re now in the government. In fact, they\u2019re in charge. And so they\u2019re working with their agenda rather than blowing things up. So that would be, when I say working for Machig Labdr\u00f6n is working for that shift on all different levels, personally and socially.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b>\u00a0So Lama Tsultrim, just to make this very grounded for someone, let\u2019s say, someone has something in their life that they have been pushing away\u2014take something that so many of us have, a fear of death of some kind. A fear of being diagnosed with something, and then having to face one\u2019s death. I push that away, I don\u2019t really want to think about it. How could I feed that instead of pushing that away? What would I do?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

LT:<\/b>\u00a0The first step would be to find where you hold that in your body, most strongly. So you\u2019d think about that fear of death, or that fear that you had of the moment of the diagnosis or the fear that you have of having the diagnosis. Feel where you feel that in your body most strongly. Then take your awareness there and then you notice, what\u2019s the color of it? What\u2019s the temperature? What\u2019s the shape? What\u2019s this energy like in your body? Then you allow that to move out of your body and be personified as a being in front of you. So you\u2019ve taken that fear and you\u2019re seeing it in front of you as a being.<\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s already an important step, because usually with these fears, they\u2019re very sort of unseen and hidden, and we can\u2019t articulate them. So we bring it out by giving it form and seeing it in front of us, that\u2019s already bringing it into consciousness from the unconscious. Then we ask it the question, \u201cWhat do you want? What do you need? How would you feel if you get what you need?\u201d So then, the process of feeding your demon is to then become the demon and to sit in that seat, in that body and answer those questions. The need is under the want.<\/span><\/p>\n

Let\u2019s say that fear wants to immobilize you. It wants to make you unable to make any decision and just gets you really depressed. That\u2019s what it wants. But what\u2019s the need that it has? The need is maybe to feel safe. So there\u2019s always a need under that want. And so you identify the need and then you go back into your own body and you imagine that your body becomes the nectar of the feeling that this demon would have if it got what it needed. And then it\u2019s fed. The nectar is fed to the demon to complete satisfaction.<\/span><\/p>\n

What happens once the demon is satisfied is it transforms, and it often transforms into the ally, which is the same energy that is locked up in the demon but it\u2019s released from the fear, from the constriction. So that\u2019s one of the powerful things about the demon work is that the demon actually becomes the ally. It\u2019s not like you defeat the demon with your ally or you call in this really strong ally and they kill your demon. Throw it out! In a lot of the early cancer treatments, there\u2019s this method for example, there was that whole idea that you create this army and then you get rid of the cancer by fighting it. But with the demon work for example, you would meet the cancer, find out what it needs and then feed it to complete satisfaction. And in that way, it doesn\u2019t need to eat you because it\u2019s fed.<\/span><\/p>\n

So often these diseases or neuroses, there\u2019s something that\u2019s needing attention, and so feeding it, you\u2019re actually quite literally paying with your attention. You\u2019re paying attention to something that you usually would try to ignore or fight against. Does that make sense?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b>\u00a0It does make sense. It\u2019s very helpful. We\u2019ve been talking, Lama Tsultrim, as it turns out, about some different key turning points in your life and events that happened\u2014this crossroads that you met with your teacher, and then also being named as an emanation, and I also know that about 2 \u00bd years ago, your husband, whom you were very much in love with, died suddenly at the age of 54. And I\u2019m curious to know, and I\u2019m sure this is quite a hard story, but how this event has changed you?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

LT:<\/b>\u00a0Yes. It\u2019s something which is still in process. It\u2019s hard to answer that question because I feel like I\u2019m still understanding or still undergoing the\u2014I guess you could almost say the initiation that that was, that that is, to the initiation into death, into loss, and into grief. I think one of the most helpful things that helped me in this\u2014you know, there\u2019s the classic thing of \u201cEverything is impermanent, and isn\u2019t this a good lesson,\u201d and all of that\u2014that was really unhelpful to me. You know, when people would say things like that?<\/span><\/p>\n

What helped me was a song that we sing. In this song, it\u2019s about being a practitioner and how no matter what happens you\u2019re always happy. For example, in one of the lines it says, \u201cIf I\u2019m sick, I\u2019m happy, because I know that I\u2019m clearing old karma. May I take the sickness of all beings upon myself.\u201d And then there\u2019s a line that says, \u201cIf I\u2019m sad, I\u2019m happy. May I take the sadness of all onto myself. So the actual sadness, then, becomes a vehicle for the practice of taking the suffering of others onto yourself. It might seem really almost masochistic to do that\u2014why would you want to take more suffering when you\u2019re already, like, over the top with your own suffering? Why would you possibly want to do that?<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s one of those paradoxes of the dharma, that by doing that, by realizing, \u201cOh yes I\u2019m suffering, but think about those mothers whose children are not coming back from the war. Think about those parents who have lost their children, think about people who didn\u2019t have 22 years with their beloved but were on their way to the wedding and there was an accident and they lost that person.\u201d So I began to do that. I began to, when the grief would arise, I would feel it and then I would invite myself to take the grief of all the other beings that I could think of, all the other situations that I could think of and take that onto myself and then to offer them out love and compassion, offer that back to them.<\/span><\/p>\n

Ironically, that helped my grief. And I think because when we experience something like grief, there\u2019s a tremendous contraction of the heart. You just feel like your heart is in a pressure cooker and you\u2019re not going to survive. And you can\u2019t take any more of this pain. So what happens when you offer love and compassion to others and the identification with the suffering of others is that the contraction in the self, on me, that contraction has to relax to feel the suffering of others. So it moves from that self-clinging, grasping, contracted feeling, to something vast, open, warm, and loving.<\/span><\/p>\n

So that was something that helped me. And is helping me. Honestly, it\u2019s what\u2019s helped me the most. There\u2019s other things that I could mention and other ways that I worked with the grief and one of them was all the ritual that we did around his death\u2014and the Tibetan tradition is incredibly rich with that and we really did the really full on Tibetan 49-day practice: every week doing feasts, and every day doing practice and washing his bones quite literally with saffron water during ceremonies. And so the ritual, the level of ritual and the richness of it also helped me. I was so grateful to the richness of my tradition. And I know many, many traditions do have richness around death and I think it\u2019s because by going through these rituals, your unconscious begins to process and be able to hold and have a structure for what\u2019s happened. So you\u2019re held by that structure of the ceremony, and that allows your psyche to go through it.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b>\u00a0It definitely sounds in keeping with this idea of feeding not fighting\u2014that in terms of working with your grief that you really have turned directly to it\u2014even inviting in the grief and pain of other people, that that was a big theme, if you will, in how you work with it.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

LT:<\/b>\u00a0I hadn\u2019t thought about it that way, but I think that\u2019s true. I kind of felt like I was failing Grief 101, you know? [<\/span>Laughs.<\/span><\/i>] I\u2019m a teacher and llama and so on, and I really felt like, \u201cI\u2019m really not doing very well.\u201d I just, I was just so devastated. I felt like, \u201cYou should be able to handle this better and really be able to apply the teachings in this moment.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

I think those moments when you\u2019re confronted with something completely unexpected, outside even the realm of, you know, sort of your worst nightmare, there\u2019s a sense of like shock and then, \u201cHow am I going to work with this?\u201d I don\u2019t feel like I was great at it, or that I am, like, really, just sailing through this and applying the teachings. I have said something that helped me, and I think that I just wanted to be clear that although that has helped me, it\u2019s not like I haven\u2019t suffered. It\u2019s not like I feel like I was always able to do that, and never overwhelmed by it or just caught in it\u2014but it hasn\u2019t been like that. Maybe there are some people, some really great, realized people who can do that, but I really honestly haven\u2019t been able to sail through this. It\u2019s been difficult. It\u2019s less now, it\u2019s less intense, but it hasn\u2019t been easy.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b>\u00a0I appreciate your humility in sharing that part of it. I think that\u2019s very helpful to people.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

LT:<\/b>\u00a0It\u2019s the truth. I think it\u2019s important that what was helpful to me also in grieving was the people who just allowed me to be where I was, you know? And not feeling like I had to be in a different state than I was, but more that\u2014you know in the myth of Inanna and Ereshkigal? I remember when she\u2019s way down\u2014Inanna goes into a descent into the underworld. The way that Inanna is eventually rescued is by those who go down to rescue her and she says, \u201cOh, oh, my insides,\u201d and they say \u201cOh, oh, your inside,\u201d and [then she says,] \u201cOh, oh, my outsides,\u201d and they just mirror, \u201cOh, oh, your outsides.\u201d I think that\u2019s something so powerful if you\u2019re with somebody who\u2019s grieving, is just to be that kind of witness of \u201cOh, oh, my inside; oh, oh, your insides.\u201d You know, that simple presence and a witnessing is very helpful.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b>\u00a0Llama Tsultrim, I want to end, in a way, by making a full circle\u2014which is, even though you haven\u2019t stated this explicitly more than once in this conversation, I\u2019ve heard it a couple times, which is this idea of trusting ourselves and how you had to do that in taking your seat, and I even hear you doing that in the process of your life of finding your way through the grief journey. I wonder what you could say that might be helpful to people in terms of helping them trust themselves more as they journey on their path.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

LT:<\/b>\u00a0Well, I think in order to trust yourself, you have to know yourself. So that means being aware of what you actually think, what you actually feel, in various situations\u2014not what you\u00a0<\/span>should<\/span><\/i>\u00a0think or should feel or what you\u2019ve been taught to, or what your teacher tells you should\u2014but what you do. That might sound easy, but I don\u2019t think it is. I think we come with so many \u201cshoulds\u201d and so many influences in our lives, that to know yourself is actually quite difficult.<\/span><\/p>\n

So I think one of the ways that I would advise people to know themselves is through meditation, through stopping, because when you meditate, you stop. And then you begin to see your mind\u2014what you\u2019re doing, what you\u2019re thinking, what\u2019s happening. And then also watching others react to you and your reaction to others. You begin to see yourself. It can be very unpleasant sometimes. Like you might think, \u201cOh know yourself. Oh, I\u2019m just going to discover this amazing being,\u201d you know, but that\u2019s not it. You know? That might be part of it, but you\u2019re also going to discover your shadow and the things that you don\u2019t want to know about yourself. So within all of that, there\u2019s gems of truth and development, because once we begin to know our shadow or know or demons, admit our demons, then we begin to become more integrated as people.<\/span><\/p>\n

So if you just look at my life, for example, with the process that I went through of having to own my own values, and then the process of feeding our demons or the process of the grief, and coming into an honest relationship with that\u2014all of those has really to do with trying to be honest with myself. So there\u2019s lots of different methods to do that\u2014meditation, therapy, dream work, the mandala of the five dakinis that I teach [is] very powerful in that. So there\u2019s many, many methods, but all of them are pointing to honesty and authenticness as human beings, and our foibles, our weakness, is part of the beauty of us as human beings. So I would just encourage people to allow yourself to be human and then capture the gems and develop them within your own humanity.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b>\u00a0I\u2019ve been speaking with Lama Tsultrim Allione. With Sounds True, Llama Tsultrim has created a five-session audio course on\u00a0<\/span>The Mandala of the Enlightened Feminine.<\/span><\/i>\u00a0It\u2019s a course on tapping into the five Buddhist female archetypes, or dakinis, for transformation. She\u2019s also created at two-session audio learning program called\u00a0<\/span>Cutting Through Fear.<\/span><\/i>\u00a0It is a version of the Ch\u00f6d practice that we\u2019ve been discussing in this conversation that helps you work on transforming and releasing difficult emotions.<\/span><\/p>\n

Lama Tsultrim, it\u2019s great to be with you and really commune. I feel really grateful for this conversation.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

LT:<\/b>\u00a0It was my pleasure, and before we dissolve this I\u2019d just like to send out a generation of spreading the merit of our conversation to all beings and gratitude to all the listeners and everyone who\u2019s listening to this because they\u2019re on their path, and they\u2019re seeking, and I\u2019m grateful to all of them.<\/span><\/p>\n

TS:<\/b>\u00a0If you\u2019d like to watch <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i> on video and participate in the after-show Q&A session with our guests, come join us on Sounds True One, a new membership community featuring award-winning original shows, live classes, community learning, guided meditations, and more with the leading wisdom teachers of our time. Use promo code PODCAST to get your first month free. You can learn more at join.soundstrue.com. Sounds True: waking up the world.<\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"template":"","meta":{"_expiration-date-status":"","_expiration-date":0,"_expiration-date-type":"","_expiration-date-categories":[],"_expiration-date-options":[]},"class_list":["post-20537","transcript","type-transcript","status-publish","hentry"],"yoast_head":"\nTurning Towards Whats Difficult 2 - Transcript | Sounds True<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Turning Towards Whats Difficult 2. 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