{"id":20541,"date":"2024-01-22T12:45:11","date_gmt":"2024-01-22T19:45:11","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?post_type=transcript&p=20541"},"modified":"2024-01-22T12:45:11","modified_gmt":"2024-01-22T19:45:11","slug":"living-like-a-stoic","status":"publish","type":"transcript","link":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/living-like-a-stoic\/","title":{"rendered":"Living Like a Stoic"},"content":{"rendered":"
\"image_print\"Print Transcript<\/span><\/a><\/div>

Tami Simon:<\/b> Hello, friends. My name\u2019s Tami Simon, and I\u2019m the founder of Sounds True. And I want to welcome you to the Sounds True podcast, <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

I also want to take a moment to introduce you to Sounds True\u2019s new membership community and digital platform. It\u2019s called Sounds True One. Sounds True One features original, premium, transformational docuseries, community events, classes to start your day and relax in the evening, special weekly live shows including a video version of <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i> with an aftershow community question-and-answer session with featured guests. I hope you\u2019ll come join us, explore, come have fun with us, and connect with others. You can learn more at join.soundstrue.com.<\/span><\/p>\n

I also want to take a moment and introduce you to the Sounds True Foundation, our nonprofit that creates equitable access to transformational tools and teachings. You can learn more at SoundsTrueFoundation.org. And in advance, thank you for your support.<\/span><\/p>\n

In this episode of <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>, my guest is Mark Matousek. Mark is an award-winning author, teacher, and speaker whose work focuses on transformative writing for personal, professional, and spiritual development. He\u2019s the founder of The Seekers Forum, and he\u2019s the creator of the Writing to Awaken method. He\u2019s also a contributor to countless well-known publications, and he\u2019s the author of eight books, including <\/span>When You\u2019re Falling, Dive<\/span><\/i> and his latest book, <\/span>Lessons from an American Stoic: How Emerson Can Change Your Life<\/span><\/i>.<\/span><\/p>\n

Mark, friend, welcome.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Mark Matousek:<\/b> Great to see you. Hi, Tami.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Great to be with you here and to talk about what it\u2019s like to live as a Stoic. One of the things I\u2019ve seen in the last few years that there\u2019s been an increase in interest in Stoicism. I might even call it a type of Stoicism renaissance. And right at the beginning of your new book, you write, \u201cStoicism is at its best when circumstances are at their worst, which explains its growing popularity today.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

So to begin, why is Stoicism at its best when circumstances are at their worst?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MM:<\/b> Because it\u2019s the most practical of all philosophies. It\u2019s close to cognitive behavioral therapy in some of its principles in terms of working with the mind, understanding the limitations of control, accepting mortality, which is a huge piece of the Stoic philosophy, and also understanding that in any given day you\u2019re going to encounter adversity and disappointment and pain and loss. And to prepare ourselves for that, to prepare the mind for that, is what Stoicism is all about.<\/span><\/p>\n

The purpose of Stoicism is to reduce, as much as possible, negative feelings and painful emotions. And the way that they do that is by understanding how our impulse to control things interferes with the natural flow of experience and also how we set ourselves up for disappointment and failure and stress by trying to control things that are simply outside our sphere of influence. So Stoicism is meant to be a very sturdy rope to hold on to in times of trouble.<\/span><\/p>\n

When Marcus Aurelius wrote the Meditations, his famous journal that became a wonderful classic book, the Antonine Plague was decimating the Roman Empire. A third of the Roman Empire died from the Antonine Plague. So in the midst of that he was writing the Meditations. So there\u2019s a parallel to what we\u2019re going through today with our post-pandemic fears and anxieties, and people are reaching for things that are practical. They\u2019re grounded, and they deal with how the mind works. The Stoics were fascinated with how thinking interferes with wellness and how we can use the mind in a more skillful way.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> I wonder if we can get more specific. So let\u2019s say someone\u2019s listening and they\u2019re thinking, \u201cYeah, there are things that are happening in the world that I feel I don\u2019t have any direct control of, and yet I have a lot of negative emotions that are coming up. How would the Stoic philosophy, how specifically could I use it to help me when that\u2019s what I\u2019m going through? My frustration, rage, grief, the things I can\u2019t control that are happening in the world around me.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MM:<\/b> It\u2019s first accepting and surrendering, you could say, to the limitations of control, which is something that we don\u2019t always do, particularly when we\u2019re talking about things going on in the world. So many of us are looking at the headlines these days and saying, \u201cWhat can I do?,\u201d feeling powerless and suffering over that powerlessness, instead of understanding that what we can do is impact our immediate surroundings and not waste our time and our energy trying to in a grandiose way make a huge difference in the way the world is moving. We can\u2019t do that. What we can do is help the people around us. We can minimize our own suffering. And we do that, as I was saying, by understanding that we simply\u2014it\u2019s outside of our sphere of control.<\/span><\/p>\n

But the mind can get so grandiose in its desire to change everything, to impact everything, and we simply don\u2019t have that ability. And that\u2019s what the Stoics are very clear on. That\u2019s why they talk about humility. It\u2019s important to be humble about what we are able to do and what we can\u2019t. So it\u2019s about sort of pulling it back, bringing it back home.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> There\u2019s some subtlety and nuance here, I think, that\u2019s important because it\u2019s also\u2014it\u2019s one thing we can say, \u201cI don\u2019t have any control over these things [that] are happening.\u201d But it\u2019s also important that we rouse our agency and rouse our effectiveness. And I think this is also where it can get\u2014and I\u2019m not trying to get overly abstract. I\u2019m trying to really be in my own experience. Sometimes it\u2019s hard to know when do I let go and when do I like, no, I need to find some small thing I <\/span>can<\/span><\/i> do.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MM:<\/b> Absolutely. And that\u2019s the middle path, as the Buddhists would call it. It\u2019s not about absolving ourselves completely of responsibility, but it\u2019s understanding what we actually are capable of and getting out of this egotistical idea that we\u2019re meant to have opinions about everything, we\u2019re meant to have agency over everything, we\u2019re meant to somehow be as world citizens involved in the whole mishegoss of what\u2019s going on in the world.<\/span><\/p>\n

In fact, we can\u2019t do that. And it\u2019s one of the delusions, I think, of living in the media age, is it gives us this false reach, this sense that we are connecting with all of these events outside of ourselves around the world, when in fact they\u2019re abstractions to us. We simply have no impact on the suffering, most of the suffering, that\u2019s happening in the world, obviously.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> OK, I\u2019m going to keep going here, and you could say that if I get annoying at any point, Mark. But what if somebody who says, \u201cThat\u2019s kind of like the ostrich move. Like is Stoicism like an ostrich where I\u2019m just going to put my head in the ground and say, \u2018Oh, I can\u2019t control, I can\u2019t say anything about what\u2019s going on in the Mideast or about climate change. It\u2019s outside of my control.\u2019\u201d I don\u2019t think that\u2019s what you\u2019re saying.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MM:<\/b> Not at all. There\u2019s nothing ostrich-like about it. It\u2019s realistic. The Stoics were realist, pragmatist. What can I do about what\u2019s going on in Gaza other than send some clothing, make some contributions, write things that support getting useful information out there? There\u2019s very little that I can do. So it\u2019s not about being an ostrich. It\u2019s about being a realist. And that\u2019s what Stoicism is about. It\u2019s not getting lost in fantasies of being bigger than we are or having more impact than we do.<\/span><\/p>\n

That doesn\u2019t mean we can\u2019t have impact, but there\u2019s got to be humility in it. Humility is understanding our proper proportion in the universe, and that\u2019s what Stoicism is all about. What is your proportion? And then proportion leads to appropriate action, and we can be much more effective that way than if we\u2019re sort of pumped up and puffed up and have all these big ideas, and then it becomes an ego trip and it\u2019s a setup for failure.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> OK. I feel satisfied now with the completion of that answer. Now tell me what Stoics mean by this phrase that I\u2019ve heard\u2014but I\u2019m not sure I really understand it\u2014\u201camor fati,\u201d to love life.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MM:<\/b> Amor fati, yeah. Amor fati is one of their primary teachings. Amor fati is about learning to love the life that you have exactly as it is, making space for things as they are without feeling like we\u2019re missing out or we will be OK when such and such happens. But rather it\u2019s being in the present moment. It\u2019s about practicing what we call mindfulness and opening our hearts to what is here around us now.<\/span><\/p>\n

And that\u2019s the way, again, that\u2019s about humility. It\u2019s about understanding we can\u2019t have everything. There will inevitably be disappointments and losses, things that we would love to aspire to, but simply don\u2019t have the ability. Amor fati says surrender, lean in to what is going on, and open your heart to it. And that\u2019s a way of celebrating our lives as they are.<\/span><\/p>\n

And again, this isn\u2019t about being an ostrich and it\u2019s also not about being Pollyanna. It doesn\u2019t mean that everything is hunky-dory, that we love everything about our lives. Obviously our lives are imperfect, and we are full of foibles and lacks and limitations. That\u2019s OK. What the Stoics say is that\u2019s OK, this is who you are, and there\u2019s a lot that you can bring to your experience to enrich it, to deepen it, to have more love for the people around us, and honor. The Stoics are very big on honor and virtue and wisdom and justice, having a sense of doing the right thing in our lives. And amor fati is connected to that sense of having a more just way of looking at our existence.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Now, what would a Stoic do with the emotions that come up when something happens and it\u2019s really not what I wanted to have happen? It\u2019s like here I am. I have amor fati written on a Post-it note someplace. And then I get that email that says, I don\u2019t know, something like, \u201cThere\u2019s going to be an IRS investigation into X, Y, Z,\u201d or I\u2019m thinking of things that if I saw them in my email, \u201cYou\u2019re being sued, Tami, for misquoting this or that,\u201d or something, and I\u2019m like, \u201cAmor fati.\u201d What do I do in these moments? Because we all have our version of that.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MM:<\/b> Yeah, the first thing you do is allow the emotions to come up. If it\u2019s rage, if it\u2019s fear, if it\u2019s\u2014whatever the emotions are, allow them to come up. Understand that they are not going to kill you. So make space for them in awareness. And then don\u2019t attach a story to them that keeps them embedded in your psyche, allowing the emotions to pass through you as they will and as they do when we don\u2019t leap on it and turn it into a cause c\u00e9l\u00e8bre or a reason to feel sorry for ourselves.<\/span><\/p>\n

Stoics had no patience with self-pity. We are meant to face our challenges, our obstacles, our fears, our rage, whatever happens to come up, all of it, but not grasp onto it, not turn it into an identity, and not go into a delusion of thinking that therefore because this happened, therefore that\u2019s going to happen. And then of course that just becomes a progressive negative cycle of anticipation.<\/span><\/p>\n

So that\u2019s what they\u2019re trying to do is pull us into the moment. Say, \u201cThese things will happen,\u201d but we don\u2019t have to make them into an identity and we don\u2019t have to hold on to them indefinitely as part of who we are. Things happen, but they belong to what Emerson called the \u201cexterior life.\u201d It doesn\u2019t change who we are inside.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> I think one of the ways that I can sometimes get confused when it comes to applying ideas like this in relationship to emotions that come up with experiences, sometimes things happen and I have a strong grief response and I don\u2019t want to cut that short and say, \u201cOK, now it\u2019s time. Tami, you\u2019ve spent X number of minutes grieving this thing. Time to embrace the Stoic philosophy. See it differently. Move on, girl, and get going. Get with it.\u201d That doesn\u2019t work for me. And I noticed, though, I can kind of\u2014I don\u2019t know if I want to use the word \u201cwallow,\u201d but I can work it. I can get into it. And I\u2019m trying to find if you can any way to help people sort through that. How do they honorably grieve but not get stuck in grief at the same time?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MM:<\/b> Yeah, that\u2019s a great point. Grief is an inside job. Nobody can tell you how long to grieve and nor can we tell ourselves how long to grieve. But I know from my own experience when my authentic grief or sorrow or sadness is turning into a tragic tale that I\u2019m telling myself. I know when I\u2019m clinging on to it, when I\u2019m milking it, and when it\u2019s time to move on. So there\u2019s a time to grieve, there\u2019s a time for despair, and there\u2019s a time for letting go of that despair and not being oppressed by it anymore. But that\u2019s an inside job. Nobody can tell you what that is.<\/span><\/p>\n

Do you know what I mean about \u201cmilking it,\u201d where you were just\u2014?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Yeah.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MM:<\/b> So at that point, you know it\u2019s time to get clear and not keep indulging that repetitive thought pattern.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> You work with people in all kinds of workshops and groups, offering them writing prompts in your Writing to Awaken approach. Do you have a sense of what might be a good writing prompt for somebody who\u2019s sorting through \u201cHave I entered that zone of\u201d\u2014I don\u2019t know if you want to use the word \u201cmilking,\u201d or what might help someone get clear inside?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MM:<\/b> Well, one good prompt is, \u201cWhat are you afraid of losing if you let go of this pain?\u201d Often we hold on, particularly when we\u2019re grieving someone who\u2019s died, we hold on to that grief because we think it\u2019s our connection to them. But another point that the Stoics make is that how we hold our memories is within our control.<\/span><\/p>\n

Another good prompt is \u201ca story that you\u2019re telling yourself right now that isn\u2019t true.\u201d Very often folks will say to me, \u201cWell, nothing. I\u2019m not telling myself any story that isn\u2019t true.\u201d And then their eyes will light up, and there\u2019s a kind of an aha moment, and they realize they are repeating something that is not actually genuine in the moment.<\/span><\/p>\n

So those are two really good prompts to use for\u2014to help us get clear on when we\u2019re holding ourselves in grief, we\u2019re holding ourselves in suffering and telling ourselves a story about it that reifies it and keeps it stuck in our present moment, when in fact it\u2019s something that has been long passed.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Now, you said something that I found a little stunning, that we have a choice about how we hold our memories, that this is a Stoic perspective. I think a lot of times when our memories surface, they surface from a body knowing. Let\u2019s say I go and I get some deep tissue work done or something like that, and memories surface and I think, \u201cI have a choice about these memories? These are just memories [that] are coming up.\u201d Now I do have a choice, I guess, [in] how long I spend continuing to think about them, but they seem like they come unbidden a lot.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MM:<\/b> Yes, they do. And body memory is its own thing. Trauma that we hold in the body, memories we hold in the body, is its own thing. The Stoics are more talking about the memories. For example, let\u2019s say you lose a friend. Let\u2019s say a friend dies, and you go through a grieving period. At a certain point you have to decide, is this how I want to remember that person? Was there no beauty in the friendship? What about the love? What about the joy? What about the wonderful things that we shared? Is it always going to be veiled by this regret over losing them?<\/span><\/p>\n

Stephen Levine used to say that when somebody dies, the first 15 minutes you\u2019re crying for them, and after that you\u2019re crying for yourself. So what the Stoics are saying is we can choose how to hold our memories. At a certain point, once the intense grieving is past, the initial despair and the sadness\u2014we need to let ourselves fall apart. But after that we can say, \u201cWhat is the narrative? How do I want to remember this person?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

And I remember the first time I read that in Seneca, I was shocked. Do you mean we have control over the past? The past is the one thing we feel like we can\u2019t control. But we do have impact on how the past lives in us and the story and how we describe the past and how we choose to remember.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> It\u2019s interesting that you gave the example of losing a friend. You write about someone who is very dear to you. How did you apply the Stoic approach, if you did? How did that work for you in your own life experience during that loss?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MM:<\/b> It was interesting because I wasn\u2019t doing it deliberately. This was a dear friend of mine for 35 years. We\u2019d been lovers, we\u2019d been friends, we\u2019d been every iteration of a friendship you could have. But what I noticed was that after Robert died, I didn\u2019t feel the kind of grief I expected to feel. I didn\u2019t miss him as intensely as I thought I would. We had been very complete. I had gone through his dying process with him. There was nothing left unsaid. I was so grateful for everything that we had shared.<\/span><\/p>\n

And what I find now\u2014it\u2019s almost seven years later\u2014is that I think of him with love and gratitude and joy and a kind of celebration. I\u2019m not sunk in despair that he hasn\u2019t been around for the last six years. It\u2019s not where the emphasis is. So I didn\u2019t do it deliberately. It was just an experiential surprise for me. I thought that I would hold on to it harder. I thought I would hold on to it differently.<\/span><\/p>\n

So often our ideas about emotions are different from the emotions themselves. My actual emotions\u2014he lived a full and happy life. He died a charmed death. I\u2019m not sitting here feeling badly about this person who was a\u2014he had a triumphant life. I don\u2019t use that lightly. He went through life-and-death illness. He went through many, many things bravely and in an exemplary way. That\u2019s what I hold when I think about Robert. He\u2019s not forever the person who died too young or the person who I can\u2019t have in my life anymore. That\u2019s a selfish way of looking at it.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Right. I\u2019m going to ask a question that I\u2019ve kind of snuck up on, but I\u2019m going to ask it really directly because it\u2019s important to me, Mark, and I know that our goodwill relationship can handle me going in like this a little bit.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

We\u2019ve all heard of spiritual bypassing, and what I can imagine is Stoic bypassing, like, \u201cOh, now we\u2019re engaging in Stoic bypassing,\u201d meaning we\u2019re somehow skipping over something or other. \u201cSo I\u2019ll remember this person\u2014.\u201d How do we make sure that\u2019s not what we\u2019re doing?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MM:<\/b> Well, the first thing is to allow ourselves to have our feelings. If you lose a friend and there are no tears, if you lose a friend, for example\u2014we\u2019re using that as\u2014and there\u2019s no grief and there\u2019s no despair, and you\u2019re going right to, \u201cOh, it\u2019s all good,\u201d or going to what I\u2019m saying about remembering them well, chances are we are spiritually bypassing or stoically bypassing.<\/span><\/p>\n

But once we\u2019ve had the emotions, months have passed, and we\u2019re back in our lives, that\u2019s when we have choice about how we want to proceed with that experience as part of our past and how we want to hold it. This isn\u2019t about spiritual bypassing at all. And unfortunately the word \u201cStoic\u201d\u2014the connotation of the word \u201cStoic\u201d in our culture is \u201crepressed.\u201d And when people think of Stoicism, they think of emotional repression. So it\u2019s important to tweak those two things apart, that the Stoics we\u2019re talking about from ancient Rome and Greece, and then Emerson, Montaigne, and other Stoics, is not being a Stoic in the sense of not owning your feelings or dissociating or spiritually bypassing.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> In terms of learning from Ralph Waldo Emerson, he lost his son. He lost his son. His son Waldo died of a disease, scarlet fever. And I\u2019m curious, what can we learn from the way that this great essayist and poet went through and was changed by that loss? What can we learn from that?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MM:<\/b> Well, first I just want to say one of the reasons I fell in love with Emerson was that he was a flawed person who had many tragedies in his life. He didn\u2019t come by this wisdom easily. This isn\u2019t secondhand wisdom. He lost his father when he was nine. He lost his first wife when he was 26. And then he lost his namesake, Wally.<\/span><\/p>\n

And what Emerson learned in the process of his own grief was that what happens to us externally, which includes our relationships, doesn\u2019t touch the inner life. What he was surprised by was that he had gone through this terrible tragedy and it hadn\u2019t destroyed him. Something that he thought could not be taken from him without him losing his soul, without him losing his will to live, had in fact been taken from him, and he was still there. He was still intact.<\/span><\/p>\n

So [what] he realized was that grief belongs to the exterior life. Now, it doesn\u2019t mean that it\u2019s not an inner experience, but it\u2019s connected to the changing world of what\u2019s going on outside of us as opposed to our inner world, which isn\u2019t affected\u2014the soul as he called it.<\/span><\/p>\n

So he was shocked when Wally\u2019s death, while it made him very sad\u2014he was very, very sad, and he had sadness about it for the rest of his life\u2014it didn\u2019t defeat him in the way that he thought it would. So that\u2019s, for me, a role model. And it has something to do with what I was just saying about my friend Robert. I would\u2019ve thought that I would\u2019ve been devastated, and I wasn\u2019t. And it made me think about Emerson and the way that he had gone through that experience. And I didn\u2019t intend for it. I wasn\u2019t aspiring to be like Emerson, but my experience matched the process that he was describing.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> OK, I\u2019m going to take this in a slightly different direction, which is to say I\u2019ve been surprised of late of how external changes in my life, loss, transition, not how I\u2019ve been centered in my soul, in my bright inner light of the unchanging, but quite the opposite, how I\u2019ve suffered a lot from them. And I\u2019ve been surprised by how much I\u2019ve been suffering. It surprised me. I wouldn\u2019t have expected it, but I\u2019m telling myself the truth about the suffering.<\/span><\/p>\n

And in doing some research on the Stoics, this is something that really inspired me, and I\u2019d love to talk about it, which is from Seneca, who I understand is a great Stoic philosopher of the past, pitied people who had never faced misfortune. And he said, \u201cNo one can ever know what you\u2019re capable\u2014even you don\u2019t know what you\u2019re capable of if you haven\u2019t gone through and worked through misfortune.\u201d And I noticed that somehow inspired me.<\/span><\/p>\n

And I wonder if you can speak to that, this notion that somehow what we\u2019re facing when we face travail, adversity, it actually can show us our capacities in some way.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MM:<\/b> Oh, absolutely. Emerson said, \u201cHe has seen but half the world who has never been shown the house of pain.\u201d Until we enter the house of pain, until we\u2019ve had experience in the house of pain, we can\u2019t grow into full human beings. And while nobody looks for tragedy, nobody looks for adversity, there is no doubt anyone who\u2019s gone through a crisis and come through it with insight knows that when we are tested, we grow in ways we cannot grow without those tests.<\/span><\/p>\n

I know, for example, if I hadn\u2019t been, my life hadn\u2019t been threatened in my late 20s\u2014I got a bad diagnosis\u2014none of my life as a writer, as a seeker, as somebody who\u2019s interested in philosophy, none of that would probably have happened. So while gratitude can sound a little glib, there\u2019s no question in my own life that there\u2019s thankfulness for what I\u2019ve endured, what I\u2019ve had to endure, my particular lot of pain. I\u2019m actually thankful for that. It\u2019s made me the person that I am. So when you realize that, it shifts your attitude towards suffering.<\/span><\/p>\n

This was the number one insight I had after I got my diagnosis. I spent about ten years as a dharma bum. I was living in monasteries, ashrams, trying to figure out how I was going to get through my fear. And the major insight that I had, Tami, was that suffering has a purpose. I grew up in an atheist Jewish, nominally Jewish, household where suffering was just a cross to bear and no one ever talked about suffering having a purpose, that it can be grist for the mill, that it\u2019s an energy that we can shift and that deepens us.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

For me, that was a huge\u2014it was a life-changing insight. All of a sudden, no matter what was happening, I could learn from it. I can learn. I can deepen. What can I let go of here? How can this make me wiser? How can this give me more empathy? How can I be less attached? There\u2019s always something to learn. And I know that that can sound Pollyanna. It\u2019s not meant to. It\u2019s simply realistic. If life is going to give you darkness and hard things, what are you going to do with it? Are we going to let it defeat us and just become this sort of heavy load on our back until we get more and more bent over until we can\u2019t see straight anymore? Or do you say, \u201cHow can I use this?\u201d And that\u2019s what the Stoics were all about, using your adversity to get free.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> To ask again for a good writing prompt, self-reflection prompt, for that person who says, \u201cOK, suffering has a purpose. I\u2019m not 100% sure I know what the purpose is of the suffering I\u2019m going through right now. I\u2019m not sure I know.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MM:<\/b> As simple as, \u201cWhat can this suffering teach you about yourself, about your relationships, about your expectations, about places where you\u2019re misguided?\u201d What can it teach you? Where is the information?<\/span><\/p>\n

The Stoics have another great practice called \u201cturning the obstacle upside down.\u201d So whatever comes to us, realizing that we can turn it upside down through a shift in perspective. So how can you shift your perspective on the suffering you\u2019re going through now in such a way that there\u2019s potential, that it is in some ways strengthening. Or how can you use it just to open your heart? Because that\u2019s another thing, is a lot of times when we\u2019re going through hard times, we shut down, we contract, we isolate. How can we use that same suffering, that same pain, as a bridge to other people in pain? That\u2019s a radical shift.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Let me ask you a personal question, Mark.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MM:<\/b> Yeah.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> You spent a few years working on <\/span>How Emerson Can Change Your Life<\/span><\/i>, working with these ideas, the principles of Stoicism. Did you hit any suffering during that time where you thought, \u201cOK, I\u2019m going to apply this.\u201d And it was hard. It was hard. Maybe you made it through it, but it wasn\u2019t just like [SNAPS] \u201cgot it.\u201d It was a journey for you, and what happened?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MM:<\/b> Yes. I mean, I went through some relationship issues with people who I care a lot about, and I went through a lot of rage and a lot of pain and sadness during the writing of this book.<\/span><\/p>\n

So I noticed that after I had sort of been with it for a while, a few months, I saw what I was mentioning to you earlier. I saw how I was holding on to it. I was turning it into a cross to bear, and I started to do, little by little, mindfulness practice around choosing how I wanted to remember these people and how I wanted to define what had happened between us.<\/span><\/p>\n

Once some of the emotion had subsided, I could have a bit more objectivity. I used the Stoic practice of trying to love the situation as it was. Our relationship\u2019s changed in a radical way. How can I actually appreciate this? What\u2019s better about this, in fact, than the way things were?<\/span><\/p>\n

So it\u2019s turning the obstacle upside down when it\u2019s appropriate, when the time comes, and realizing that I have more agency\u2014we were talking about agency earlier\u2014than\u2026 I haven\u2019t always given myself credit for how much agency I had over my own suffering.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> This is really interesting in terms of choosing how we want to remember certain people, especially people that perhaps we had a difficult falling out with or a breakup or the relationship didn\u2019t end well, but perhaps it was a deeply nourishing relationship for quite some time. We have a choice about how we remember it. That\u2019s very interesting to me.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MM:<\/b> It blew my mind when I read that the first time, that we have a choice over how we hold the past. It felt like a complete oxymoron, because the past is the one thing we feel like we can\u2019t control in any way, but we actually do have impact on how it affects us.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> In terms of how we look at things, in <\/span>How Emerson Can Change Your Life<\/span><\/i>, you write about this notion of \u201cthe angle of vision,\u201d that we can shift our angle of vision. Can you explain this concept of the angle of vision?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MM:<\/b> Yes. Well, his angle of vision was his way of saying \u201cperspective.\u201d And this is nothing new, and this is vintage Stoicism. And he says, \u201cWhat is a man but what he thinks about all day?\u201d What we think about, our preoccupations, come to define us.<\/span><\/p>\n

So understanding our perspective is the first step to bringing change to our lives and to shifting out of a suffering place. But it means really being honest. And that\u2019s something we are not often as honest as we think we are. We think we\u2019re telling the truth, and most of the time we\u2019re euphemizing or we\u2019re lying by omission or we\u2019re practicing reputation management or all these other ways that we don\u2019t actually tell the whole truth.<\/span><\/p>\n

So when we look at our angle of vision, we have to say, \u201cHonestly, how do I look at the world? How do I see? What are my projections? How do my projections form my expectations?\u201d And getting really honest about that.<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s not pretty, sometimes, when you are truthful with yourself about how bitter you are or how stuck in the past you are, how competitive or how envious, whatever the ugly emotions are. We\u2019re often not truthful about that. So you can\u2019t shift your angle of vision until you\u2019re honest about what your angle of vision is. And that can be a reckoning. That can be a real wake-up call.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Let me ask you a question about that, because it\u2019s one thing to be honest about your angle of vision, and then it\u2019s another thing to say, \u201cI\u2019m going to shift it.\u201d Let\u2019s say someone\u2019s like, \u201cOK, I can be honest about it, and I enjoy being a grump.\u201d Not really, or something like that. \u201cBut no, I\u2019m not going to shift it.\u201d What do you think keeps people, even when it\u2019s their own unhappiness, that keeps us from shifting our angle of vision? What is it that keeps us from making that shift? \u201cI\u2019ll tell you the truth about it. I just won\u2019t change it.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MM:<\/b> Yeah, yeah. We believe that our perspective defines us. We think that our identity is our perspective and vice versa. And when you understand that perspective is something that\u2019s changing all the time, in fact, and if you let it, we\u2019re actually much more fluid than we think we are.<\/span><\/p>\n

But there has to be the desire. Like you\u2019re saying, if somebody says, \u201cI\u2019m a pessimist. I\u2019ll die a pessimist. This is how I want to live,\u201d that person\u2019s not going to change. But for the person who doesn\u2019t want to live with so much pessimism and gloominess and doom, a doomsayer kind of personality for the rest of their lives, that\u2019s really useful to understand, \u201cGosh, this goes really deep in me. What is my attachment to this pessimistic point of view? What am I afraid of losing if I let it go?\u201d A lot of pessimists look at optimists like we are delusional or like we are misinformed or just childish.<\/span><\/p>\n

So how, for example, does one confuse pessimism with realism? A lot of pessimists will tell you, \u201cI\u2019m a realist. You are the one who\u2019s pie in the sky.\u201d So just using pessimism as a common example of an angle of vision that people struggle with, particularly today, it\u2019s very\u2014there\u2019s a lot of pessimism and a growing feeling of pessimism.<\/span><\/p>\n

So to be an optimist in this culture, in this moment, is to really go against the tide. And the optimism I\u2019m talking about is\u2014Emerson talked about optimism, which is reality-based optimism, understanding that things can change. Everything in nature adapts, that we can reinvent ourselves. There\u2019s always that the imagination exists. The imagination can help us get through hard times. That\u2019s the kind of optimism we\u2019re talking about.<\/span><\/p>\n

He called it \u201ccosmic optimism,\u201d which can sound a little grandiose, but it\u2019s really just not losing a sense of the beauty of the world and the possibility of being a human being. So no matter how bad things are, we can always keep asking questions. There\u2019s always something to be learned. The heart can always open a little bit more and deepen.<\/span><\/p>\n

That gives me hope. And that\u2019s another word people have a lot of trouble with, particularly nowadays. Some people prefer hopefulness to hope. So we can have a feeling of hopefulness and possibility when we\u2019re willing to open the aperture on our angle of vision and say, \u201cWhat am I not looking at here? How am I keeping myself small and narrow and stuck and in pain?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> I noticed when you were talking about \u201ccosmic optimism\u201d and you were describing nature\u2019s regenerative powers, you were pointing to that, that I got more optimistic, realistically optimistic, as you were talking about it, because I thought, that\u2019s true. Nature does have this adaptive regenerative capacity within it, and we are that nature too.<\/span><\/p>\n

So I wonder if you could just say more about this notion of \u201ccosmic,\u201d that word, because that\u2019s interesting to me, cosmic optimism.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MM:<\/b> Yeah, cosmic optimism in the sense that we are connecting to the force at the center of being. And you can call that whatever you want, call it Eros, for example, that animating, creative, imaginative force at the center of our being. We don\u2019t lose that even under duress, even when we\u2019re bombarded with bad things happening. That remains there.<\/span><\/p>\n

So cultivating that and really nurturing the connection to our cosmic optimism, to that regenerative power within us, is absolutely critical, particularly when we\u2019re going through hard times. A big part of self-care is remembering that as a part of nature, you have the ability to recreate, to adapt, to find new ways forward. And that\u2019s so helpful in times of suffering. It\u2019s so easy for the lights to go out completely, but it\u2019s like it keeps the pilot light in your mind going.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> And I wonder, once again, moving from the personal more to the collective, if this notion of the possibility of going through hardship and that there\u2019s some new adaptive regenerative possibility\u2014I mean, some people refer to this as conscious evolution. That you can say we\u2019re going through these very dark times, or you can say we\u2019re in the middle of conscious evolution, which requires this kind of adversity in order for us collectively to grow. So I wonder how you see that when you look at applying these ideas in a larger social sphere?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MM:<\/b> Well, that\u2019s a classic example of both are true, and it\u2019s also a classic example of angle of vision. So we can look at it as just bad things are happening, tragedy, hopeless, or we are part of an evolutionary cycle that is larger than this moment, as painful as it is. And when we can hold it in that way, we are not as defeated. And we can also be effective.<\/span><\/p>\n

Hopelessness doesn\u2019t lead to service in the world. There needs to be a sense that we can have some impact. But we can\u2019t have any impact if we don\u2019t have any hope. And so realizing\u2014and that\u2019s a good way of doing it, seeing that we\u2019re part of a larger cycle of history, of transformation, of evolution. That instills that feeling of hopefulness that I\u2019m talking about, that it energizes us, it motivates us, and it makes it seem worthwhile to help and to do what we can to make things better.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> In <\/span>Lessons from an American Stoic<\/span><\/i>, at the end you have a whole collection of exercises and different going deeper reflections and exercises that go with each chapter of the book. And in this segment on talking about looking at our own angle of vision, you offer this really interesting idea, and I found it worked for me like that [SNAPS].\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

So I want to share it, which is you said, \u201cImagine that this was happening from a view from above.\u201d So I spun myself way up and was up in the galaxy someplace looking down, and that really, really helped shift me. And then you took it further, and you said, \u201cImagine that this was happening to someone else,\u201d whatever personal thing. And that also helped me. So I wonder if you could say a little bit more about these two shifts that you\u2019re suggesting people experiment with, and why do they work so well?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MM:<\/b> Because we\u2019re so identified with our suffering, we\u2019re so identified with our story and with our ego, that when we take what the Stoics called \u201ctaking the view from above,\u201d we\u2019re abstracting ourselves, we\u2019re stepping outside of our experience, and we\u2019re using what meditators or spiritual traditions call \u201cwitness consciousness.\u201d And when you move into the witness, you\u2019re not as enmeshed in the situation, whatever it might be.<\/span><\/p>\n

And we can do that. We can do that no matter what\u2019s happening with us. And imagining it happening to someone else is also very interesting, because we hear about terrible things happening to other people, and the ease with which we kind of turn the channel or turn the page or move on is kind of extraordinary. So when you shift it from \u201cthis is me and mine and my life and my loss\u201d to \u201cthis is a human being going through this experience,\u201d it\u2019s expansive and it relieves the pressure of \u201cpoor me.\u201d We live so much of our lives in poor me. \u201cWhy me?\u201d And this is the antidote to that.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> OK. Another big topic I want to talk to you about, Mark, is The Seekers Forum. This is this online offering that you\u2019ve created and run for many years now. But here\u2019s the part that\u2019s really interesting to me. The Seekers Forum\u2014and you could say Sounds True, which has been around now for almost four decades\u2014helps people find their own truth, their own way, through self-inquiry, self-reflection, doing various kinds of spiritual exercises. And OK, wonderful.<\/span><\/p>\n

And some of the feedback that I\u2019ve gotten over the years is people saying, \u201cGosh, I wish Sounds True would just tell me what to do. I wish it would just tell me what to do. This whole notion that I\u2019m going to find my own\u2014if I knew how to find my own way, I\u2019d have found it. I haven\u2019t. I don\u2019t know. I\u2019m confused. And now Mark Matousek said X, Y, Z about the Stoics. And then I listened to another podcast X number of weeks later that said something totally different. These things are like, are they contradictory? Are they paradoxically true? I\u2019m confused. I want to find my own way. But the truth is I\u2019m kind of mixed up inside.\u201d How do you address that?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MM:<\/b> The Seekers Forum is a nonsectarian group. I\u2019m not a card-carrying anything. I\u2019m not much of a joiner. I\u2019m not really a group person. I\u2019m not attracted to any specific\u2014I\u2019m attracted to many different teachings, but no specific tradition. And I wanted to create a group for people like me who are interested in asking questions.<\/span><\/p>\n

The core of the group is self-inquiry, but I\u2019m not there to tell them what is true and what is not. That\u2019s not my job. I feel I see myself as a guide or as a friend. I like the Sufi concept of \u201csohbet,\u201d which is the spiritual talk of friends.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> No, I\u2019m with you. But my question has to do with people reporting confusion.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MM:<\/b> That\u2019s their confusion. My job isn\u2019t to make their confusion go away. My job is to ask them questions. \u201cSo why is this\u2014what is this confusion? Let\u2019s be specific.\u201d And that\u2019s a big part of Writing to Awaken and what we do in The Seekers Forum. It\u2019s getting specific. Very often we kind of stop at the generality and saying, \u201cWell, what exactly are you confused by?\u201d And then saying, \u201cWhere is your desire? What truly gives you joy? Where do you feel guided, and what feels like a closed door to you?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

So by asking questions, people can find their own way and come back to their own experience and say, \u201cWell, yes, maybe. Maybe I need to try yoga,\u201d or, \u201cMaybe I need to try journaling,\u201d or whatever it happens to be. My job is to provide them with possibilities, to ask questions and trust that they\u2019re going to find their own way, which is what happens. The kind of folks who are attracted to this group, Tami, are not looking for me to tell them what\u2019s true and what isn\u2019t. They\u2019re just the opposite of that, in fact.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Sure. And my question isn\u2019t so much specifically\u2014even though I mentioned The Seekers Forum, it\u2019s not so much specifically about that actual vehicle. It\u2019s more about this time that we\u2019re living in when so many people are no longer a singular this or that on their spiritual journey. They\u2019re taking pieces from here and there and creating their own\u2014I\u2019ll use the Emerson term, \u201cself-reliant\u201d\u2014path forward. And at times it seems to work really well, and at times it doesn\u2019t seem to work really well. And instead there\u2019s confusion.<\/span><\/p>\n

And I\u2019m wondering, you\u2019re saying get specific about what that confusion can be. I think there\u2019s also a sense of, \u201cI don\u2019t know if I\u2014can I trust myself? Do I know enough? Am I asking the right questions?\u201d So I\u2019m wondering what, specifically, more advice you have to people who have that moment of like, \u201cAm I growing? Is my spiritual journey taking me anywhere? I\u2019m asking a whole lot of questions. Self-inquiry, OK, but I have a lot of doubts about this.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MM:<\/b> Yeah. And doubt is a great motivator on the spiritual path, and so is confusion. And struggle has a purpose in spiritual life. I wouldn\u2019t be there to take away their struggle. I would tell them to go into the struggle. Go more deeply into your struggle. What is actually troubling you? Where\u2019s the fear? What\u2019s the insecurity? Where\u2019s the longing? What is your true longing? Do you long to belong to a religion? Or are you somebody who has no interest and no faith whatsoever?<\/span><\/p>\n

So it\u2019s not about taking them and making it easier for people. This is a challenging path. The path of coming to know yourself is a lifelong journey. So I encourage people to remember that it\u2019s a practice, first of all, and to not expect it to be easy. Why would it be easy? Or not easy. Nothing in life that\u2019s worthwhile is easy. Love, work, art\u2014none of these things are easy. Spirituality. These are all challenging things.<\/span><\/p>\n

So it\u2019s about not feeling sorry for ourselves, that it\u2019s not just kind of handed to us or that we\u2019re not completely clear all the time. And accepting that the price of admission to wisdom and insight is struggle. That\u2019s the way it goes. That doesn\u2019t mean there\u2019s something wrong.<\/span><\/p>\n

When people tell me that they\u2019re confused, I know they\u2019re working. That tells me that they\u2019re engaged with their process. When things seem to come too easily or when people just kind of accept something at face value, I\u2019m waiting for them to hit the wall because they haven\u2019t actually often come up against the truth of what\u2019s going on inside them. And spiritual life is a very, very personal journey. It\u2019s a personal endeavor.<\/span><\/p>\n

So we can accompany one another. We can hold each other\u2019s hand on our way, guide each other home, as they say, but we can\u2019t take away that uncertainty. It\u2019s meant to be there.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> It\u2019s very interesting to me to hear you say the price of admission is struggle, because I think sometimes there can be this notion that if I\u2019m struggling, I\u2019m doing something wrong.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MM:<\/b> Exactly. And that\u2019s why I emphasize that. No, on the contrary, you can\u2019t have a relationship without struggle. Whether that\u2019s a relationship with another human being or a relationship with a faith or a relationship with yourself. There\u2019s always going to be difficulty. The problem is that we want it to go away, or we think there\u2019s something wrong if we\u2019re not just getting it. And then things don\u2019t stay the way they are.<\/span><\/p>\n

But of course, we\u2019re in an impermanent world. Nothing is certain. Everything has many different sides to it, which is another reason I love Emerson so much. He talks about paradox really being at the heart of our existence. Everything is contradiction. We are homo duplex. We\u2019re the two-sided ape. Why wouldn\u2019t the different parts of ourselves argue with each other and have difficulty and conflict? It\u2019s a part of being a human being.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> The last chapter of <\/span>Lessons from an American Stoic<\/span><\/i> is on enlightenment. And a previous book that you wrote that I read many years ago\u2014it must\u2019ve been north of 20 years ago\u2014was called <\/span>Sex, Death, Enlightenment<\/span><\/i>. I loved that book. As a younger person it was particularly meaningful to me.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

A lot of people don\u2019t use the word \u201cenlightenment\u201d anymore. It\u2019s like, \u201cOh, there\u2019s so much confusion around it. No one really knows what it means. I\u2019m not sure I know what it means. We\u2019re not going to talk about it. Let\u2019s just leave that word off.\u201d But here you are at the last chapter, <\/span>How Emerson Can Change Your Life<\/span><\/i>, is on enlightenment. What can we learn from Emerson about enlightenment?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MM:<\/b> He saw the whole purpose of his work was to bring light to the lives of people who couldn\u2019t find their way out of darkness. His whole project is to brighten our awareness and brighten our perception, our angle of vision, and our appreciation of nature, our appreciation of the world.<\/span><\/p>\n

So enlightenment is about brightening our angle of vision. It\u2019s about freeing ourselves of repetitive stories. I like what Sharon Salzberg says about enlightenment, which is that you\u2019re sitting on the meditation cushion. Every time your mind wanders and you realize it\u2019s wandering, that\u2019s a moment of enlightenment. So it\u2019s a humble, small, accessible experience. Every time you realize that you\u2014when you become aware of being aware and you can see yourself thinking, and you can see how you\u2019re projecting and painting the world with your thoughts and your feelings, that\u2019s a moment of enlightenment. It\u2019s not a permanent state.<\/span><\/p>\n

So I\u2019m talking about enlightenment with a lowercase <\/span>e<\/span><\/i>. I\u2019ve spent enough time around great spiritual masters to know that they all have their issues. They all have their problems. They\u2019re all works in progress. I\u2019ve never met a teacher who wasn\u2019t a work in progress. So are they enlightened? Yes, they have an unusual level of self-awareness. There is some attainment there, but it\u2019s always imperfect. It\u2019s flawed. And catch them on a bad day, say something to them that they don\u2019t want to hear, and you\u2019ll see how that enlightenment suddenly becomes very, very human and very, very messy.<\/span><\/p>\n

For me, enlightenment is about allowing the mess to be there. It\u2019s really about making space for the contradictions, the inconsistencies, and our humanity with all of the failings and foibles to be there. And big surprise, big surprise that we have these contradictions.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Mark Matousek, how wonderful to talk to you. Thank you so much. How radiant to be with you in this way. The author of the new book, <\/span>Lessons from an American Stoic: How Emerson Can Change Your Life<\/span><\/i>.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

MM:<\/b> Thanks, Tami.<\/span><\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> And if you\u2019d like to watch <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i> on video and participate in the aftershow Q&A session with our guests, come join us on Sounds True One, a new membership community featuring award-winning original shows, live classes, community learning, guided meditations, and more with the leading wisdom teachers of our time. Use promo code PODCAST to get your first month free. You can learn more at join.soundstrue.com. Sounds True: waking up the world.<\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"template":"","meta":{"_expiration-date-status":"","_expiration-date":0,"_expiration-date-type":"","_expiration-date-categories":[],"_expiration-date-options":[]},"class_list":["post-20541","transcript","type-transcript","status-publish","hentry"],"yoast_head":"\nLiving Like A Stoic - Transcript | Sounds True<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Living Like A Stoic. 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