{"id":21545,"date":"2024-05-09T12:33:27","date_gmt":"2024-05-09T18:33:27","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?post_type=transcript&p=21545"},"modified":"2024-05-09T12:33:27","modified_gmt":"2024-05-09T18:33:27","slug":"releasing-the-mother-load","status":"publish","type":"transcript","link":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/releasing-the-mother-load\/","title":{"rendered":"Releasing the Mother Load"},"content":{"rendered":"
\"image_print\"Print Transcript<\/span><\/a><\/div>

UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT: <\/b>The following transcript is provided in its raw, unedited form and may contain errors. We have not proofread this transcript, so it may include typographical errors or other mistakes due to inconsistencies in audio quality, background noise, or other factors. We cannot guarantee its precision or completeness. We encourage you to use this rough transcript as a supplement to your own notes and recollection of the session.<\/span><\/p>\n

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Tami Simon:<\/b> Hello, friends. My name\u2019s Tami Simon and I\u2019m the founder of Sounds True. And I want to welcome you to the Sounds True podcast, <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

I also want to take a moment to introduce you to Sounds True\u2019s new membership community and digital platform. It\u2019s called Sounds True One. Sounds True One features original, premium, transformational docuseries, community events, classes to start your day and relax in the evening, special weekly live shows, including a video version of <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i> with an aftershow community question-and-answer session with featured guests. I hope you\u2019ll come join us, explore, come have fun with us, and connect with others. You can learn more at join.soundstrue.com.<\/span><\/p>\n

I also want to take a moment and introduce you to the Sounds True Foundation, our nonprofit that creates equitable access to transformational tools and teachings. You can learn more at soundstruefoundation.org. And in advance, thank you for your support.<\/span><\/p>\n

In this episode, my guest is Erica Djossa. Let me tell you a little bit about Erica. She\u2019s the founder of Momwell and a psychotherapist who specializes in maternal mental health. She founded Momwell to set a standard of care for providers and to ensure mom-centered specialized mental health support at any stage of motherhood. She\u2019s the mother of three young boys, ages five, seven, and nine, and she\u2019s written a new book with Sounds True. It\u2019s called <\/span>Releasing the Mother Load: How to Carry Less and Enjoy Motherhood More<\/span><\/i>. Erica, welcome.<\/span><\/p>\n

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Erica Djossa:<\/b> Thank you so much for having me.<\/span><\/p>\n

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TS:<\/b> Pleasure. Our conversation, yes, it\u2019s for mothers and we\u2019re going to be talking about this notion of releasing the mother load, but I found in reading your new book that it\u2019s really for all of us to understand how, as a society, we\u2019ve colluded and are participating and putting an undue burden on mothers and mothering. And I wonder if we could just start there. When you think of this notion of releasing the mother load, the responsibility that we have, those of us who aren\u2019t mothers for understanding this phenomenon.<\/span><\/p>\n

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ED:<\/b> We can really perpetuate norms, whether those are gender norms or how we envision mothers should be and should behave or should perform in their role. And as aunts, as mother-in-laws, as friends, we can serve to surveil and police those in our lives back into those roles by the things that we say to them.<\/span><\/p>\n

And this can come in the form of, \u201cOh, your husband worked such a hard day. They shouldn\u2019t have to come home and cook their own dinner.\u201d Or comment about our child\u2019s weight and how they must be eating. Or all kinds of different ways that we unintentionally, and I\u2019m sure not maliciously, surveil and like I said, police or nudge people back into what we think or we have internalized a good mom should be.<\/span><\/p>\n

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TS:<\/b> What\u2019s your definition of a good mom?<\/span><\/p>\n

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ED:<\/b> Ooh, I haven\u2019t been asked that before. It\u2019s really tethered to my values, and I guess that makes sense. That\u2019s what we go through in the book. And to me it is being a safe place, being a dependable, reliable place. It also, there\u2019s that I\u2019ve attuned to and prioritized my relationship with my boys today. And that\u2019s not to be mistaken for I have been zoned in and zoomed in on them all day long and have felt the need to be on all the time, quantity. It\u2019s that I\u2019ve made a really intentional effort to have a connected moment with them today.<\/span><\/p>\n

I mean, we all want our kids to be good citizens. And I also think about them a lot in their partnership role, whoever they choose to partner with, that they\u2019re not going to look to, if it is a woman, look to the woman in the house to be their keeper, to be the keeper of the house, to be the keeper of the children, should they have any.<\/span><\/p>\n

And that\u2019s something that\u2019s really important to me is teaching them that they have an equal responsibility to domestic and care work just as their dad does, just as we share responsibility in the home. So those are, I guess a few things spoken like a true therapist and somebody who\u2019s passionate about this space.<\/span><\/p>\n

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TS:<\/b> Well, it\u2019s interesting because you immediately started by leaning into your values and are you leading your life from your values? And you make this interesting distinction in the book between values-centered mothering and what you call intensive mothering. I\u2019d never heard that term before, but that this focus that we have in our culture on intensive mothering is part of what creates the mother load. So for people who are hearing that term for the first time, what is intensive mothering?<\/span><\/p>\n

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ED:<\/b> So it\u2019s a term that sociologists use and research and it\u2019s used to name the construct or the norms in which we are mothering. Sociologists have deemed this the era of intensive mothering. And there are a few core myths or beliefs associated with what that means and they\u2019re very prevalent in our society.<\/span><\/p>\n

So that means that we feel the need to be it all and do it all for our children. That mothers are best biologically suited to be the caregivers for their child and they should be the one main caregiver. That mothering should be all-consuming of our time, our energy, our resources, and we should take joy in putting our kids\u2019 needs before our own.<\/span><\/p>\n

And then there\u2019s this other part of this message that is we should be wholly and completely satisfied in doing that. So to want something outside of motherhood or to long for something for yourself is considered selfish or seen counter what it means to be a good mom. Which is very confusing for those of us who have been raised in a society that tells us as women, \u201cYou can be it all, shatter glass ceilings, go after your goals and the things that you want.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

And then I stepped into motherhood and it was actually like, \u201cBut you should want to actually be at home with your kids and taking care of the house because that\u2019s what you should enjoy doing.\u201d So those are some of the norms that really feed into why we continue to carry this invisible load that is so heavy, heavy to carry.<\/span><\/p>\n

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TS:<\/b> Now this notion that a mother is the person who is best biologically suited to care for the child, I can certainly see how this has become an accepted viewpoint. I mean beginning with birthing the child and then nursing the child, yes, you are biologically the most suited person on the planet to care for this child. So tell me how is that not true?<\/span><\/p>\n

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ED:<\/b> I open the book with a little inventory of whether you see domestic labor and caregiving labor as gendered or not. And as you mentioned, there are few tasks in caregiving that are suited to our biology like giving birth or breastfeeding, but pretty much every other task that we evaluate and look at is not gendered in our parenting roles.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so just because I am the one that has the breasts to feed my three boys, which I did exclusively breastfeed them, which in retrospect I may not have. Knowing what I know now, I would\u2019ve combo fed and spared my mental health a little bit. But just because I\u2019m the one that has the milk to feed doesn\u2019t mean that I have to be the one getting up and changing the diaper and burping and resettling them.<\/span><\/p>\n

So my partner would actually get up, bring my son in to me to nurse in the bed, then take them back, change their diaper, burp them, settle them, because sometimes in those early days, those wake-ups could be an hour and a half, two hours long. So to protect some sleep, he can do all the other associated labor around the task that is actually dependent on me and we can share in this feeding journey together.<\/span><\/p>\n

But what happens when we think that I\u2019m best biologically suited to feed and to get up and to soothe and to nurture and to take care of, then we start to slowly build this cage for ourselves in these patterns of invisible labor and physical, very visible labor as well, that are so difficult to break out of. And we don\u2019t realize until we\u2019re drowning in plain sight that this is entirely unsustainable, which was what led to my breakdown turn breakthrough that I talk about in the book where I\u2019m burning myself out. This is not a sustainable way to parent and a sustainable way to mother.<\/span><\/p>\n

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TS:<\/b> Now you mentioned that in retrospect you might not have breastfed your three boys in totality. You might have alternated between. And I could hear someone saying, \u201cIt\u2019s much better to breastfeed your children.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

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ED:<\/b> Oh yeah.<\/span><\/p>\n

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TS:<\/b> It means you must. Like, \u201cWhat? You would compromise that, really?\u201d And then they\u2019re immediately hitting the I\u2019m out of here button. I\u2019m sure you hear all of these different views. And the notion of values-based parenting, if I understand it correctly, for someone maybe that is their value. Maybe that means you\u2019re bringing something else forward. So help us understand that because you can get into all of these arguments about what is the right way, the right, capital R-I-G-H-T way.<\/span><\/p>\n

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ED:<\/b> Yeah. Well, when we really begin to unpack that, well, of course you should do everything you possibly can to exclusively breastfeed. What I\u2019m hearing is yes, you should martyr and sacrifice every single bit of yourself, even if it\u2019s to your detriment, excuse me, even if it\u2019s to your detriment.<\/span><\/p>\n

I work with a lot of mom clients who are sleep-deprived and sleep is a cornerstone of our mental health. When we are sleep-deprived, some scary bad things can happen. And we hold so tightly and rigidly onto an expectation that we set for ourselves before we ever spent a day in the role of being a parent who\u2019s actually caregiving for a new infant. So I step into this role and now I want to prove I\u2019m a good mom and I can do this and I was built for this and I was made for this, and I\u2019m absolutely destroying my mental health in the process.<\/span><\/p>\n

And we know that when a mom is well, a baby is well. And I\u2019m lucky that I had a very supportive partner, but when I say in retrospect I would\u2019ve done it differently, it\u2019s not that I wouldn\u2019t have persisted to breastfeed my children. Some can\u2019t breastfeed, some don\u2019t even have breasts because they\u2019ve been removed from surgeries. And I have people reach out to me saying they\u2019re made to feel guilty that they can\u2019t feed and they don\u2019t even have breasts. This goes really deep in the mom community.<\/span><\/p>\n

I\u2019m not saying that I wouldn\u2019t have done that, I\u2019m saying that I would\u2019ve been flexible. I would have taken the new evidence in the situation and used that to make my decision. So I would\u2019ve seen, you know what? I am sleep-deprived and I\u2019m not functioning. I\u2019m not functioning well right now. I need a protected chunk of sleep. I\u2019m going to either pump and give a bottle or I\u2019m going to just supplement with some formula for a night feed so that I can restore some sleep and some wellness so that I can actually maybe run this marathon of feeding that I\u2019m trying to commit to.<\/span><\/p>\n

So there\u2019s a rigidity that can come with holding so true to these expectations for ourselves that can be really maladaptive in the long run.<\/span><\/p>\n

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TS:<\/b> It\u2019s interesting, you used this phrase, the martyr, mother as martyr, and it seems like part of what you\u2019re doing in <\/span>Releasing the Mother Load<\/span><\/i> is you are trying to say uh-uh, uh-uh. How do you relate to that undoing this notion of being a martyr?<\/span><\/p>\n

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ED:<\/b> It is to say that being a mother is the most amazing privilege and I would never undo it, though, let\u2019s be real. There are days where you question all your life\u2019s decisions parenting three children, but I wouldn\u2019t undo it. But it\u2019s also to free ourselves in a way to say we can also want things other for ourself. And what happens when we are consumed with the mother load or the domestic labor and the caregiving work is our time is already monopolized and spoken for. So there is no capacity to dream or to want or to desire for ourselves outside of motherhood because we are already beyond consumed with our role.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so I really see this as an act where learning to care for ourselves and centering mom, not only is proven according to research to help children, but also empowers us to have some freedom that just feels so fulfilling and that we are deserving of. And that doesn\u2019t get spoken about a lot because the narrative and the culture is to put everybody\u2019s needs before our own.<\/span><\/p>\n

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TS:<\/b> You write about how intensive mothering wasn\u2019t always put on the altar in our culture, that this is something that evolved and developed in the middle of the 20th century. Can you talk more about that? How did intensive mothering come to be what we all say, \u201cOh, that\u2019s historically,\u201d and now people like you are rewriting that narrative?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ED:<\/b> It\u2019s really a bit of a perfect storm. We\u2019ve got millennials who are the generation that\u2019s really spanning the childbearing years right now, and they\u2019re a digitally native generation going into mothering for the first time. And so we\u2019ve got this over-informed, over-educated, overwhelmed group of parents. And then we also have this generation where in 1950, 25% of mothers worked outside of the home and now less than 75 years later, 87% of mothers work outside of the home and yet the majority are still responsible and own the responsibility of the caregiving and household tasks.<\/span><\/p>\n

So now we\u2019ve also got this pressure cooker. We\u2019ve got all this additional expectation from social media and the way that information is distilled down to us. And then we also have two full-time roles that we are carrying in a way that generations have never had to before. So it\u2019s a pressure cooker of a situation that sets us up to fail and feel like we are drowning and not good enough or not built for this role, not maternal enough.<\/span><\/p>\n

And one of the things that I actually see is rather than stepping back and seeing this big motherhood system that we\u2019re talking about, the air that we are breathing or the water we\u2019re swimming in, instead we look around and compare ourselves to others and see that it appears as though they are doing it all and they\u2019re carrying it all. So it must be me, I must be the problem. I must be failing or not good enough or not cut out for this role.<\/span><\/p>\n

And when we\u2019re not open and talking about it and realizing that we\u2019re all just drowning in plain sight, we stay siloed and there is no resistance or there is no permission to break out of this pattern because we feel like it\u2019s a me, I\u2019m flawed problem.<\/span><\/p>\n

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TS: <\/b>What do you say, Erica, when people say, \u201cFathers also aren\u2019t getting enough sleep and are tremendously burdened with young children and all of the responsibilities that come with that\u201d? Aren\u2019t you over emphasizing the mother load in your analysis? What about the father load?<\/span><\/p>\n

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ED:<\/b> I have a very contributing and willing partner. So I\u2019ve always had a very neutral set of eyes on what the invisible load of fatherhood looks like, what pressures and norms they face in their own unique role that are different from what mothers might face. And the pressure and the socialization for them to step into things like being the provider or feeling the need to advance in their career, all of those are very real and really do come online when they step into parenthood. That\u2019s why there\u2019s a lot of talk about readiness, readiness to have children because there\u2019s this additional pressure and weight financially that is our responsibility.<\/span><\/p>\n

But when it comes to the caregiving and the household tasks, what I actually see a lot of is, well, I have to do the wake-ups because my partner has to get up and go to work tomorrow. And there is a valuing of our partner\u2019s time because their time is exchanged for money that it is protected and valued more than a mother\u2019s time. So mothers will get up in the nighttime and do the night wakings and shoulder all of the additional labor because their caregiving work is not seen as work.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so that\u2019s the pattern that I tend to see. But our fathers of this generation are more involved, and I hear this a lot where it\u2019s like, \u201cThis is the most involved generation or the most contributing group of fathers that spend more time with their children per minute, per hour than any other generation.\u201d And that is true, they do a lot more around the house or contribute in a different way.<\/span><\/p>\n

But what we are actually talking about is ownership and responsibility over domains and departments of the home. So how did the distribution of labor land the way that it did in the house? Was it a conscious conversation because we both feel equally responsible, that we both are responsible for keeping house and caregiving, that we discussed who was going to take what? Or was it auto-assigned and auto-assumed that it was going to be mom because she is the female, the woman in the house who\u2019s stepping into this more socialized or traditional role? 95% of the time when I speak to people, there was not a conscious conversation. It was an autopilot falling into these patterns and norms.<\/span><\/p>\n

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TS:<\/b> One of the eye-opening stories that you tell is about the pile of laundry and the distribution of the laundry tasks in your family and how you were able to really, I would say, deconstruct that to have quite some insight into something that you call cognitive labor that goes into the care-taking of our homes. And I\u2019d never thought about this before, so I wonder if you could share the story and then the insight?<\/span><\/p>\n

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ED:<\/b> I still wrestle with how a pile of laundry can create an epiphany of sorts that led me on this journey. It\u2019s just kind of silly to me, but I call it my aha moment. One of the things about cognitive labor and invisible labor is that they are so invisible and abstract that you feel the weight of carrying it, but you can\u2019t really articulate or put your finger on what it is that feels so heavy because it\u2019s a million little tasks, it\u2019s not one big task.<\/span><\/p>\n

So as a family of five, I was postpartum with my third son, he was maybe eight or 10 weeks old at the time. And anyone knows a family of five and little babies and poop blowouts and burp cloths and sheets being spit up on. And I had this mountain of laundry that was building up and my husband was responsible for washing, switching it over to the dryer because my ADHD brain would leave it for like 48 hours before I\u2019d remember to turn it over. And so he had this system ironed out and my job was to fold it and put it away.<\/span><\/p>\n

And pile after pile after pile started to build up. And I would walk by it every day and be like, \u201cWhat kind of capable adult cannot just fold laundry and put it away? I know I\u2019m a capable human being, I\u2019ve done a lot. There are things that I\u2019m really good at. How come I\u2019m being taken down by this pile of laundry?\u201d And one day I was like, \u201cWhy am I so resistant?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

I became curious about what I was avoiding or pushing away from or having such a hard time with. And when I really unpacked it, it was a changeover in season. I had to rotate all the kids\u2019 dressers in seasonal clothing but also in size, make sure that all the right sizes were moved. I had to make a list of what I had to go and purchase. I had to store all the previous season away and figure out where I was going to put that. There were things that had to go to donation. And before I knew it, there was four to six hours of additional physical labor involved in just folding and putting that laundry away.<\/span><\/p>\n

And that was my aha moment, that\u2019s when I saw it for the first time that, oh, this isn\u2019t just laundry. It\u2019s not just a laundry problem, there is a volume. If you think of the iceberg, there is a whole bottom to this iceberg that is usually invisible to the eye that I had to see in order to even validate my own feelings and resistance to what this task was.<\/span><\/p>\n

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TS:<\/b> I was reading <\/span>Releasing the Mother Load<\/span><\/i>, and as I was reading it, my wife said to me, we\u2019re out of town right now and she said, \u201cCan you please call the vet and order more of this pain medicine that the dog sitter needs?\u201d And I was like, \u201cYeah, I can do that. OK. OK.\u201d And I called the vet and the vet says, \u201cWell, we can\u2019t get you that medicine until your dog comes in for its annual checkup.\u201d And I thought to myself, \u201cAnnual checkup? I didn\u2019t even know the dog, our dog Raspberry, needed to have an annual checkup.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

And I was thinking about this whole notion of cognitive labor and how my wife keeps track of all of the appointments and all the medication and everything that\u2019s going on. It\u2019s not just this one act of calling, there\u2019s a whole structure that she\u2019s tracking that I\u2019m not tracking. And I saw that that was what you\u2019re pointing to. It\u2019s like these whole areas of responsibility, not just an action to take. I plug in and I do an action, but that\u2019s not the same as owning a whole structural part of our shared life together.<\/span><\/p>\n

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ED:<\/b> Well, and if you think about it like writing a research paper in university or something along those lines, you\u2019ve got to go and we\u2019ll figure out the topic. You\u2019ve got to source the articles, you\u2019ve got to read them, you\u2019ve got to research and piece together in your mind what your outline is going to be before you even sit down to physically put anything on paper. And that cognitive labor and that planning and that anticipating and researching is often the vast majority of the job. But the reason why it\u2019s particularly tricky is because it is pervasive and boundary-less.<\/span><\/p>\n

Physical tasks, like if I go and book a massage for myself, I can lay on the massage table and the garbage probably isn\u2019t going to haunt me because I can\u2019t do anything about it right now anyways. But all of that cognitive, oh, I really need to call the vet or I really need to book this appointment. Or, I\u2019ve been putting off making eye appointments for myself and my son for, I don\u2019t even want to admit how long it\u2019s been, probably over 12 months. It\u2019s been ridiculous. I can\u2019t just make this phone call.<\/span><\/p>\n

And these are the things that just intrude every bit of leisure time we have, every bit of self-care time that we have. And that\u2019s why they can feel so smothering and heavy to carry. There is no box or boundary we can put them in and we carry them with us everywhere.<\/span><\/p>\n

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TS:<\/b> You\u2019re right. We have to become aware of what we\u2019re carrying so we can redistribute it. And we have someone here who\u2019s written in and said, \u201cMy husband and I have taken on the gender norms that you talk about. We both want an even need to break this down and we want to even the playing field of our parenting responsibilities. But where do we start? Are there one or two first steps you can recommend?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ED:<\/b> I love that we\u2019re acknowledging that the partner is willing here. This is so much my experience is that we have a willing partner. There are partners out there that are not willing. But we have a willing partner, it\u2019s like where do we even begin? Well, one, making that invisible visible. We can\u2019t redistribute what we can\u2019t name and see.<\/span><\/p>\n

And this is labor in itself, so I\u2019ve gone ahead in the book and made what I call load maps for you, where I tried to think about all of those invisible pieces and lay them out. You can also download the PDF as a free resource where these lists are made for you as a starting point for these conversations. So that I\u2019ve mapped out what the bottom of that iceberg really is.<\/span><\/p>\n

And there\u2019s a blank one for you to fill in anything that may have been left out so that you then can sit with the whole picture and say, \u201cOK, this is what goes into feeding the house. It\u2019s actually all of these volume of tasks. Does one person want to own this? Are we going to divide and conquer certain pieces?\u201d But until we can name it and see it, it\u2019s like we\u2019re just taking shots in the dark trying to figure out how to redistribute it.<\/span><\/p>\n

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TS:<\/b> Your very first sentence in <\/span>Releasing the Mother Load<\/span><\/i>, here we go, \u201cThe day my volcano of mom rage erupted was the day that changed my entire approach to motherhood.\u201d And I thought, \u201c\u2018Mom rage.\u2019 I\u2019ve never heard that term. I\u2019ve never heard it.\u201d And then I went to your Momwell website and was looking around and I saw that you focus the therapeutic support in different areas for people who are suffering from postpartum anxiety, postpartum depression, mom rage was one of the top five areas. And I thought, \u201cOh, this is a thing. I need to understand more about mom rage.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

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ED:<\/b> Yeah, it\u2019s interesting I get pushback, again like, \u201cWhy mom rage? It doesn\u2019t get called dad rage. Dads are angry too and stuff,\u201d which is all true. But what is really unique about anger in motherhood is that mothers, as we\u2019re talking about this construct and these norms, are expected to be all loving, all patient, all kind, all nurturing and warm. And so to be angry or to be rage-filled is the opposite of what it means to be a good mom.<\/span><\/p>\n

So anger and rage and negative emotions towards our role are really tricky in motherhood because there\u2019s a lot of shame associated with them. But I put mom rage in, I\u2019m going to say three buckets, one being resentment. So we have postpartum rage, which is linked to our biology and our adjustment to motherhood, postpartum rage being the most common overlooked symptom of postpartum depression and anxiety. So anger and irritability postpartum, not always, doesn\u2019t have to be, but often is a symptom of depression or anxiety and is often overlooked.<\/span><\/p>\n

So if you are postpartum, which to me is up to 12 years after baby is\u2026 12 months not years. 12 months after baby is born, if you are feeling uncharacteristically angry, irritable, lashing out, losing your cool in a way that is just so unlike you, as a therapist, if you were coming to me, that would be a red flag for something really more biologically going on for us.<\/span><\/p>\n

And then we\u2019ve got more what I would put in a maternal anger bucket, which is this righteous anger and frustration towards why am I the one, why me, the way that the system is so stacked against us and all the things that we have to carry. I don\u2019t know if you heard, I think it was Minna Dubin writing about in the <\/span>New York Times<\/span><\/i>, all the moms that went to scream in the field in the pandemic because of all the things that they were carrying.<\/span><\/p>\n

There is an anger when we start to see the truth about how mothers are not valued, they are not cared for, they are not supported in any systemic or political way, of course that makes us infuriated. And then there\u2019s also a piece of that that we have to learn how to cope with that because that will just destroy us and eat us alive.<\/span><\/p>\n

And then there\u2019s resentment, which is that piece of how unfair this is directed at our partner. Maybe we see them as the enemy or we see them as the one doing wrong to us because they are not contributing or seeing us in the way that we need them to. And resentment is also something that I would put in the anger bucket.<\/span><\/p>\n

So there\u2019s a few different flavors or ways that this appears, but ultimately having the conversation about anger in motherhood is so important because we often go underground with it.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> What did you discover was the root system underneath your mom rage?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ED:<\/b> I was having the uncharacteristic, irritable, like irritable from the time I opened my eyes in the morning already felt like I was at capacity and just had no patience or tolerance for any minor disruption that would happen in my day. And I was about 10 to 12 weeks postpartum with my third at the time, and my rage was very much rooted in postpartum depression. It was a wake-up call on my meltdown on my driveway when I\u2019m heaving and throwing up that I am not OK. This is not me. This feels uncharacteristic. I also should be able to cope with this better than I am. There\u2019s something going on here.<\/span><\/p>\n

And I actually started medication for postpartum depression and anxiety that day, and the entire sky parted. The clouds went away, the sun came out. And all of that irritability and that rage that I felt towards my kids, that I felt towards my partner and even myself, slowly started to lift and I started to feel like myself again.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> If a mom\u2019s listening to this and is recognizing that their rage has the flavor of resentment, and let\u2019s just say the labor here is not equitably distributed, it\u2019s not, and I haven\u2019t spoken up, I haven\u2019t spoken up for my needs, one of the things you write about is you quote research from the Gottmans that the way we start a difficult discussion has everything to do with the outcome. And that 92%, something like that, of all difficult conversations, you can predict the outcome by the way the conversation begins, by the tone, the language.<\/span><\/p>\n

So what would you recommend to a woman who\u2019s ready to have a conversation with their partner about things need to change, like I want to do one of these Mother Load worksheets together, and they\u2019re not sure how receptive their partner will be to this?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ED:<\/b> There\u2019s two pieces. There\u2019s a very practical piece, but the first piece is that we need to shift our perspective from seeing our partner as the problem. When we see either ourself as the problem because we are flawed and we\u2019re not doing a good enough job and we\u2019re just not meant for this role, then what is the solution to a flawed human being? There\u2019s no creative problem solving that we can engage because we are broken.<\/span><\/p>\n

And when we see the patterns in our home playing out as our partner\u2019s problem and their incompetence or their lack of, we are personalizing it and it feels like a slight towards us, we are going to carry that energy into these conversations with a real strong tone of you need to change and this is a you problem.<\/span><\/p>\n

While some of that is true, this is a me and my partner against the norms and ways we\u2019ve observed parents to do this before. This is a, we need to work as a team, call out these patterns and norms for what they really are, and realize our partner was socialized into their role just as much as we were and it\u2019s not like they\u2019ve intentionally shouldered us with this burden. So that is some work that we\u2019ve got to do within ourselves to have some constructive conversations.<\/span><\/p>\n

And then when we\u2019re ready to sit down with a load map or to have a conversation, there\u2019s a few really practical pieces. One, try your best to do it at a time when the kids are not around or won\u2019t interrupt you. So if I\u2019m frustrated and I\u2019m cooking dinner and I think it\u2019s time, because I\u2019m pissed, to strike up a conversation, but I\u2019m being interrupted every five seconds, and there\u2019s things boiling on the stove and I haven\u2019t eaten yet, so I\u2019m hungry, and there are all of these unmet needs going on, unlikely to be the time to have a productive conversation.<\/span><\/p>\n

So I go through in the book some red light and green light times to think through an intentional approach to the conversation. And those are, I feel like they are very common sense, but they weren\u2019t things that I employed all the time because usually we want to bring it up in the heat of the moment when we\u2019re ticked about it. And it\u2019s really hard sometimes to bite our tongue, walk away, process it a bit, and then choose an intentional time to approach it.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> I want to read this quote, Erica, from the book. You write, \u201cThe truth is that our feet are never put to the fire like they are in motherhood. Motherhood brought up a lot that I wasn\u2019t expecting, childhood wounds that I thought were long resolved and buried, pain as I grieved what I hadn\u2019t had, postpartum depression that I didn\u2019t recognize until my breakdown, breakthrough, and much to my surprise, an absolute inability to continue with my path of perfectionism.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

And I wanted to hear you speak to this last point and how resolved for you this perfectionism has become and how you got there.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ED:<\/b> It\u2019s really common, I will say, for us to feel like we are straddling our past again. I just want to put that out there for anybody who might feel that. When we step into parenthood, it\u2019s like we put one foot in our past while we\u2019re also straddling our future trying to raise these healthy children. It does a very strange thing to the wounds you thought you\u2019ve healed. You start to question what kind of parent does this, because you look at this helpless little child and you\u2019re like, \u201cI would never want to hurt them in this way.\u201d So that\u2019s a very common thing to happen when you enter into parenthood. So I just want to leave that out there for anybody who has felt that.<\/span><\/p>\n

But perfectionism is something that I wore armor and to be perfect or to achieve or to try to please everybody was really a coping skill for myself. And I would say that I didn\u2019t intentionally let it go. I feel like I was brought to a breaking point where I was forced into acceptance that I can\u2019t do it all or be perfect. That meltdown on the driveway, heaving and gagging to the point of throwing up, realizing I am not OK, was the tearing of the veil to say, \u201cOK, how can I do this sustainably? Something needs to change.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

And that was the first acceptance of it\u2019s OK to be human. It\u2019s OK to not get it right. It\u2019s OK to not be able to carry it all. And it was really the beginning of a journey to self-compassion, to validating how hard it was. Whereas before, I was just so intent on proving that I could do it right or that I could do it perfectly. But there was an acceptance piece that came I would say that really started that journey off.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> At Momwell, you focus on linking people to psychotherapists who are specialists in the area of maternal mental health. And quite honestly, I didn\u2019t know that was an area of specialization. I think I thought any therapist could help. What do people who specialize in maternal mental health, what do they know? What skills and capacities and training do they have that maybe a general therapist might not have?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ED:<\/b> So when it comes to that re-parenting yourself while you\u2019re parenting your children healing part that comes up in that matrescence and adjustment to motherhood, they are aware of that, that shift in identity, the grief and the loss that can come with what you didn\u2019t have and how you reconcile that.<\/span><\/p>\n

They\u2019re also trained in understanding how your hormones impact your mental health because women\u2019s emotions or mood can be a major factor for some. So some are more sensitive to the fluctuations in hormones and it can contribute to postpartum depression and anxiety, which is why women are at most high risk for onset of mental health challenges during puberty, their menstrual cycle each month, like PMDD, when they are pregnant\/postpartum, and when they are perimenopausal and menopausal. That\u2019s when we start to see most mental health challenges onset or rear their heads.<\/span><\/p>\n

So they have a better understanding of the biology and how it impacts our mental health. And then they\u2019re also sensitive to some of what we\u2019ve been talking about today, the pressures and the societal messages and shoulds that moms face, as well as things like safety and intrusive thoughts.<\/span><\/p>\n

So for example, I\u2019ve heard of moms who are working with a general therapist and maybe they tell them about some really scary and intrusive thoughts that they\u2019ve had about harming their baby. And it is the most terrifying, disturbing thing that they\u2019ve ever experienced, and they have zero intention of ever\u2026 They will go out of their way to even avoid having the thought, let alone acting on it.<\/span><\/p>\n

And being able to go through and understand what is an intrusive thought versus what is postpartum psychosis or something that\u2019s actually a safety concern is some of the nuanced training that they also have. So that moms can come, seek help and seek support without fearing that they\u2019re going to be reported, that they\u2019re going to be told that they are not fit to mother.<\/span><\/p>\n

When I poll my audience about what their biggest fears are in seeking therapy and seeking support is that they will be reported or told that they aren\u2019t fit to mother their own child. And so that stands in the way of them getting the care that they need. But maternal mental health therapists have additional training in all of those areas to provide a really safe and non-judgmental environment for moms to process their transition to motherhood.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> The last section of <\/span>Releasing the Mother Load<\/span><\/i> is focused on managing your mental health. And you look at five different assumptions that we need to question, and I thought this was really brilliant and I\u2019m going to go through them with you here. The first one that mental well-being is a destination. I think many of us think mental well-being is some elusive destination, but one we want to get to.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ED:<\/b> I especially felt that when it came to healing from my upbringing, which I think is why it was so surprising that I had this whole new wave of resentment and anger towards my parents surface when I stepped into motherhood. Healing is not a destination and there are different vantage points and things that come up that can bring on these new waves of emotion. And so learning the skills to be able to process and take care of our well-being in this sustainable way, so important.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> As a mom, I should automatically know what to do in high stakes moments.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ED:<\/b> There is a lot of powerlessness that moms can feel in moments when they think maternal instincts should kick in and they don\u2019t seem to. It\u2019s like, \u201cDid that gene skip me? Do I not know? Am I not cut out for this?\u201d And there\u2019s a lot of second guessing that can go on. Yeah.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> The third assumption struggling with my mental health means I\u2019m failing as a mom.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ED:<\/b> I think that this is really the most disempowering belief because if I won\u2019t redistribute any of this labor, I won\u2019t ask for help, I won\u2019t lean on any of the support systems that I have that are available to me if I think that to ask for their support means I\u2019m admitting that I can\u2019t do it. So being able to shift into a mindset of what is being asked of me is unrealistic for any one person to shoulder and carry. When we can see beyond internalizing it and being hard on ourselves and see that it is actually just entirely unrealistic, then it can actually be very empowering to ask for support and for help.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> What I heard also in your own story, when you identified that your mom rage was connected to the postpartum experience you were undergoing and you sought and received medication, that choosing to receive medication, having that vulnerability to say I\u2019m struggling, that that can be a really important way to actually manage your mental health.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ED:<\/b> And allowed me to enjoy my role. We don\u2019t talk enough about how resentful we can feel, not towards our children, maybe, sometimes, but more towards the role and the responsibilities that we carry, or how sometimes we may even regret the choices that we\u2019ve made. But in getting the right help and the right support, I could actually lean in and enjoy my role in a way that I probably hadn\u2019t really up until that point.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> As a headline to this whole section, you write, \u201cThe best thing you can do for your child is to take care of your own mental health.\u201d And I thought that\u2019s probably the best thing we could do for anyone, all of us could do is to take care of our own mental health. OK, the fourth assumption, I\u2019ve moved on from my past, it\u2019s all water under the bridge.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ED:<\/b> Yep, that comes back to that healing piece I think, and well, lots of other things from our past can reemerge because we are living our past out in our present in a way that is so bizarre it\u2019s hard to explain. But your past has never been more ever present than when you are trying to break out of cycles. And when we are trying to learn skills like regulating mom rage while also teaching our children to regulate their own anger, there is no more challenging or weird place to be where I\u2019m trying to teach you, with confidence, a skill that I\u2019ve barely learned myself. It\u2019s a tricky balance. It\u2019s a tricky balance.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> When it comes to quote, unquote, \u201cregulating mom rage,\u201d what do you recommend to people when they start to see the anger is starting to rise? They\u2019re not at the rage point, but they\u2019re seeing it starting, what to do at that point so that it doesn\u2019t lift all the way to the rage level?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ED:<\/b> What I actually find is that most moms don\u2019t realize the little incline. It\u2019s not until they are at more of a 4 or 5 out of 10 where we\u2019re about to erupt, that we are flagged down and pay attention. And so it\u2019s kind of like if you think about driving a car and the check engine light comes on and it\u2019s like, \u201cHey, pay attention. You might want to get an oil change. You might want to take care of yourself.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

And it\u2019s a subtle but not so subtle sign, it\u2019s there. But we\u2019re often pushing through until the car is on fire on the side of the road before we\u2019re like, \u201cMaybe I should tend to this. Maybe I should eat or shower or do something for myself.\u201d So I think the first step is even catching those in-betweens and not waiting until we\u2019re at that 4 or 5 out of 5.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> You mentioned taking care of ourselves and you write about really what self-care means beyond of course people think the bubble bath, the candle. And not that there\u2019s anything wrong with bubble baths and candles, but what\u2019s your definition and framing of self-care for moms?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ED:<\/b> I actually got this from Dr. Pooja Lakshmin. She writes about true self-care and she was on my podcast and has really contributed to how I frame this for myself. But it\u2019s really a commitment to my own needs and being able to advocate for myself and make sure that those needs get met. And that\u2019s not advocate in a vocal or angry way, but that is me recognizing and realizing that I am the one radically responsible for my needs and ensuring that they have a voice and ensuring that they get met.<\/span><\/p>\n

And when we are mothering in the era of self-martyrdom, that is so against the grain of what it feels like we should be doing that it can be really uncomfortable. And I hear a lot of people say, \u201cOh, you should put your needs first.\u201d And then this, that you put your oxygen mask on before you put your kid\u2019s mask on. And while that is true, what I find is it\u2019s too much of a leap from being so far behind in terms of priority that to go to the front feels like, \u201cOoh.\u201d It makes us really uncomfy.<\/span><\/p>\n

So I try to paint this picture of, can our needs just have a seat at the table on equal playing field as the rest of our family? So if it\u2019s time for my children to eat so that their tummies are full, can I feed myself and have a full tummy? If I\u2019m going to prioritize putting my children in an enriching social activity because it\u2019s good for their mental health and their development, can I also consider my own mental health and social development? So it\u2019s being able to see what is good for them is also good for us, and how do we assert and insert ourself into that equation on equal ground.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> I wonder, Erica, could you share an example to me of how you and your husband and your family resolved a situation where you could tell there was not shared, equitable, everybody\u2019s needs are getting met? You felt, my needs aren\u2019t really getting met in the same way, how did you work through it? Maybe give us an actual example with your family.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ED:<\/b> Let me think about this. One of the ones that comes to mind goes back to when we were really in the throes of little kids, little, little kids. And my partner was very stepping into fulfilling his duty and role of being the provider and advancing in his career and was doing a lot of certifications and classes and things to advance his career.<\/span><\/p>\n

And one, my career is on pause, no bitterness over here, feeling like I\u2019ve got to sacrifice everything I\u2019ve worked for to care-give. But then also, he didn\u2019t realize that when he took on these additional certifications that required reading and paper writing and study time and prep time, that it impacted me as well, like how we are tethered together. And when you have less capacity, I then have less capacity. Or I feel the need to protect your time, and therefore feel like you are not a support or accessible to me. And I\u2019ve got an eight-week-old infant and I have mastitis and a fever. This is a problem.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so it was really hard for me to even validate that experience for myself to be able to say, there\u2019s no more schooling happening, wrap this certification up. We need a break because I need to feel as though you are accessible to support me in this caregiving role. And that\u2019s a conversation that has resurfaced.<\/span><\/p>\n

And then there\u2019s been times when I\u2019ve been committed to projects at work and I\u2019m less accessible in the home environment. And he\u2019s also had the same conversation with me to say, \u201cI\u2019ve been picking up a lot of the slack or the pickups and drop-offs around here. I know that this is for a season, but it\u2019s going to have to level out at some point because this is too far in my direction.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Erica, you talk to a lot of people through Momwell and through all of your interactions with new mothers. Where do you think we\u2019re at right now in terms of culture change and moving out of this intensive mothering pattern?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ED:<\/b> I think that from the conversations I\u2019m having, so many moms are so focused or trapped in thinking that they are the reason they can\u2019t juggle it all, that they can\u2019t even lift their head up to see the bigger picture. And that\u2019s a really discouraging thing to see. And I think that that is so at the core of why I wrote this book, if for nothing else, if for nothing else than to know you most certainly are not the problem.<\/span><\/p>\n

We won\u2019t challenge motherhood or even think it\u2019s possible to do it differently if we are stuck in our own loop of feeling like we\u2019re failing, recommitting to do it better tomorrow, and then inevitably not being able to carry it all, and then feeling like, again, I\u2019m failing and I\u2019ve got to do this whole cycle again. We can\u2019t see what is going on around us when we are stuck in that.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so my hope is that we begin to lift our heads up more, be open and honest with these conversations, and give others permission to also do so, so that we can start to chip away at some of these social norms and expectations.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> And what would you say to someone who\u2019s listening who says, \u201cLook, I know I need to honor my own needs as much as I honor the needs of the other members of my family, but I just find it so uncomfortable to do that, so uncomfortable. My habit pattern is so much everyone else comes first, everybody. How can I possibly shift this?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ED:<\/b> I would say to start small. When we think about making change, we often think about going for the pendulum swing of change, again to this whole put myself first, from the bottom to first. And really it\u2019s like, what is one teeny, tiny, tolerable way that I can prioritize my needs today? My kids now know this rule. When I wake up, it is a half an hour of mommy\u2019s latte time. And they will come over and peer into my coffee cup to see what level the coffee is at before they\u2019re going to ask me to join in an activity with them.<\/span><\/p>\n

Because one thing I just felt like I needed is to wean myself into the morning and not start off full throttle. And so it can be such little ways that you begin practicing to put yourself first, that it doesn\u2019t have to be flooding and feel so overwhelming. Just start with something doable and tangible.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Talking to Erica Djossa, the founder of Momwell and the author of this gorgeous, really comprehensive\u2014it\u2019s a workbook. You get into it and there\u2019s so much here that you can engage in. It\u2019s called<\/span> Releasing the Mother Load: How to Carry Less and Enjoy Motherhood More<\/span><\/i>. And really, you\u2019re an activist, Erica, in such a powerful way and I bow to you. Thank you for your good work.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

ED:<\/b> Thank you so much for this talk today. I appreciate it.<\/span><\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> And if you\u2019d like to watch <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i> on video and participate in the aftershow Q&A session with our guests, come join us on Sounds True One, a new membership community featuring award-winning original shows, live classes, community learning, guided meditations, and more with the leading wisdom teachers of our time. Use promo code PODCAST to get your first month free. You can learn more at join.soundstrue.com. Sounds True: waking up the world.<\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"template":"","meta":{"_expiration-date-status":"","_expiration-date":0,"_expiration-date-type":"","_expiration-date-categories":[],"_expiration-date-options":[]},"class_list":["post-21545","transcript","type-transcript","status-publish","hentry"],"yoast_head":"\nReleasing The Mother Load - Transcript | Sounds True<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Releasing The Mother Load. 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