{"id":25677,"date":"2026-06-08T21:31:05","date_gmt":"2026-06-09T03:31:05","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?post_type=transcript&p=25677"},"modified":"2026-06-11T11:02:37","modified_gmt":"2026-06-11T17:02:37","slug":"david-deida-the-way-of-zero","status":"publish","type":"transcript","link":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/david-deida-the-way-of-zero\/","title":{"rendered":"David Deida: The Way of Zero"},"content":{"rendered":"
\"image_print\"Print Transcript<\/span><\/a><\/div>

David Deida:<\/b> Wide open and clear. That’s what zero feels like. It doesn’t feel like a dullness. It doesn’t feel like a depletion. It doesn’t feel like a depression. Those are misunderstandings of zero. And that’s why I wrote the book\u2014so people could go, “Oh, I see. I don’t have to collapse. I could be not motivated and stay wide open and loving and full and creative.”<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> In this episode of <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>, my guest is David Deida. David is an unusual and original wisdom teacher\u2014provocative and insightful. He teaches at the intersection and edge of our spiritual unfolding and sexuality. He’s the bestselling author of 11 books that have been published in more than 35 languages for more than 15 years. David has been named to the Watkins Spiritual 100 list, a list that recognizes the world’s most spiritually influential figures. He’s the author of the international classic for men, <\/span>The Way of the Superior Man<\/span><\/i>; <\/span>Dear Lover<\/span><\/i> for women; a book for couples called <\/span>The Enlightened Sex Manual<\/span><\/i>; and now a new book called <\/span>The Man of Zero<\/span><\/i>. That’s what we’ll be talking about in this episode of <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>. Friends, stay with us.<\/span><\/p>\n

David, welcome.<\/span><\/p>\n

David Deida:<\/b> Thank you very much, Tami. It’s always great to talk with you.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> The Man of Zero<\/span><\/i>. Introduce me to him, if you will. Pretend three different men walked into the room and you thought, “These are men of zero.” What would they be like?<\/span><\/p>\n

David Deida:<\/b> I’m not quite sure you’d be able to tell when they just walked into the room. In general, a man of zero is a man who has come to a point in his life where he no longer has the meaning he used to. He no longer has the sense of purpose he used to. At one point he might’ve been highly focused, purposeful, motivated\u2014with a lot of meaning in his life\u2014and then suddenly, often for no external reason, it becomes empty for him. He just simply isn’t motivated. He could be in a loving relationship, have a great profession, children who love him\u2014externally an ideal situation\u2014but the man of zero has come to zero motivation and meaning.<\/span><\/p>\n

In the past, I’ve helped men rediscover their new meaning\u2014how do you find your next deepest purpose? I cover that extensively in <\/span>The Way of the Superior Man<\/span><\/i>. But in this book, <\/span>The Man of Zero<\/span><\/i>, I look at: what happens if you don’t do anything? What happens if you just stay absolutely present, relaxed, effortlessly here, and allow what is\u2014what emerges from that when you no longer have a sense of purpose? It’s how do you live your life from a primal power\u2014a kind of power that is moving everything but isn’t your personal purpose anymore, because you’ve outgrown that. That’s what the man of zero is.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> The Way of the Superior Man<\/span><\/i>, which I mentioned in the introduction, is the classic book you wrote that came out in 1997\u2014almost 30 years ago. I’m curious about the evolution in your work to <\/span>The Man of Zero<\/span><\/i>, how that lived in you. You don’t write about this in the book, but in a way you’re teaching obviously from your own knowing and experience. Is it fair to say that you moved from living as David Deida, the way of the superior man, to a man of zero? What was that like for you personally?<\/span><\/p>\n

David Deida:<\/b> Yes, it is true to say that for me, <\/span>The Way of the Superior Man<\/span><\/i> was a way of living at my edge. It was a way of stretching myself and feeling how I can serve others, how I could give others the gift so that their lives are better\u2014and how do I challenge myself so I’m always growing, one step at a time from where I’m at.<\/span><\/p>\n

But after you do that for a while\u2014and it doesn’t mean age; some men are very young and maybe they take psychedelics or something and they have a vision, and in this vision they realize that everything they’re experiencing is, in a sense, an appearance of light in consciousness\u2014they may no longer have the sense of purpose they used to have. They used to feel money was important, success was important, and now that has just evaporated. They no longer feel that. So the man of zero has come to a point where he’s no longer motivated by the same motivations as in the past.<\/span><\/p>\n

Now, what’s dangerous here is that you could become depressed. A man can collapse when he’s feeling unmotivated. But if you don’t collapse, if you can stay very present with the moment, with what is, without collapsing\u2014even though you have no sense of purpose or meaning\u2014something else happens. You begin to live and think and move from a deeper place that’s not personal anymore.<\/span><\/p>\n

That’s what happened to me. I found that although I loved what I was doing, the motive to do anything began to dissolve, and just being\u2014literally being, sitting, walking\u2014began to overtake my life. So I began to jot some notes down about it, in case it’s helpful to others.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> You write towards the beginning of the book, “Don’t mistake zero for emotional neutrality.” What’s it like as a man of zero with intense emotional experience?<\/span><\/p>\n

David Deida:<\/b> Many men conflate what I call zero with having no thoughts\u2014the stopping of thoughts, the stopping of emotions, a kind of blankness. And that’s not zero at all. Zero is no resistance. When you no longer resist what is, when you’re no longer trying to add something to what is or subtract from what is\u2014that’s zero. It may be that emotions are moving very strongly in any moment, and yet you’re at zero because you’re not pushing them away, you’re not grasping onto them; you’re just being with them, present with them.<\/span><\/p>\n

So you can be very emotional, very thoughtful\u2014you can be incredibly creative. In fact, the thoughts that arise from that place of deep being, that deep awareness, are creative thoughts. They’re no longer the trauma-thoughts or loops of thought that we have from hurts in our childhood. We begin to think from the source of the moment, so our thoughts are very fresh and creative, rather than in reaction to something from our past.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> You mentioned, David, that in your own experience this sense of meaninglessness\u2014if you don’t collapse into it\u2014something else comes up, something else happens. And I’m wondering for people who are listening who say, “Well, I’m not collapsing, but I feel this ongoing sense of meaninglessness, of emptiness, and it doesn’t feel”\u2014because the subtitle of your book talks about a guide to primal power\u2014”I don’t necessarily feel a sense of primal power. I feel a sense of unknown nothingness. It doesn’t feel filled with presence and power.” Do I just need to sit here longer in this space?<\/span><\/p>\n

David Deida:<\/b> Possibly. There are many details in the book that would help orient you to ways of being. Let’s just take a thought. Any thought\u2014if a thought is arising, something is happening. There’s a happening happening. A thought is happening. And what is moving that thought? When you look at it, you didn’t plan the thought, sound it out, think to yourself as if you’d never thought it, and then listen to your own thought back to yourself. It’s not like that. Thoughts just appear, and that happening has a power and energy to it. It’s the same power that’s behind all happening\u2014the planet circling the sun, the universe spinning. Something is going on. Life is being lived.<\/span><\/p>\n

And when you are no longer adding or subtracting from that\u2014as a matter of zero\u2014you are lived by that power. You never fully understand it. You never know where you’re going. You never know what’s next. You don’t know the details of who you are or what anything is, but you remain totally clear and present.<\/span><\/p>\n

Open to the moment, uncontracted, able to respond to the moment and able to feel the depth that is beneath every moment\u2014whether we’re talking like the two of us are now, or whether we’re in a dream. Stuff is still happening. So at all moments we can access the power of isness, the power of what is happening.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> As you mentioned, David, there’s a lot of detail and nuance in the book. <\/span>The Man of Zero<\/span><\/i> has three main sections: what it means to be a man of zero, then “Sex at Zero,” and then living artfully\u2014applying and practicing life as the man of zero in many different situations, including working with money. One of the things you and I have talked about over the years, because Sounds True published <\/span>The Way of the Superior Man<\/span><\/i> in paperback after you had published it in hardcover as this underground classic, is how many women purchased that book\u2014to understand the men in their lives, to give to the men in their lives. I’m wondering if you think that will be true also with <\/span>The Man of Zero<\/span><\/i>, and why women might be drawn to reading it.<\/span><\/p>\n

David Deida:<\/b> Yes\u2014to my surprise, for instance, with <\/span>The Way of the Superior Man<\/span><\/i>, I believe more women purchased it than men. They apparently find it helps them understand men, understand men’s motivations and desires. And yes, I’m equally surprised to find that <\/span>The Man of Zero<\/span><\/i> seems to appeal to the partners of men of zero at least as much as to men of zero themselves.<\/span><\/p>\n

There are many women who feel: Why doesn’t he express his feelings? Why does my partner not seem that interested in life? Why does he not like to talk so much with me? Why does he seem irritated with me when I just want to connect? And the answer to all of those questions is that zero\u2014that emptiness or nothingness\u2014is the essence of what I call the masculine, which is pure awareness. By being that emptiness, the masculine\u2014the man in each relationship who’s identified with the masculine, though a man could be identified with the feminine too\u2014will feel empty and free.<\/span><\/p>\n

When a woman is talking to him and she’s filled with love and joy and happiness, he may feel it as a pain in the neck because it requires his attention. Many men, the more masculine-identified they are, the more they’ll feel that everything about their feminine partner\u2014her spontaneity, all the things he loves about her\u2014can also become irritating, because he wants nothingness. He wants peace and quiet at a certain level. And so that understanding is very valuable to a lot of women. A big part of the book is about how couples can be together when one of them is a man of zero.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> You write in the section “Sex at Zero” that the man of zero knows how to “riverbank her flow.” I loved that image\u2014”riverbank” as a verb. Can you explain that?<\/span><\/p>\n

David Deida:<\/b> A river is composed of the water, which is flowing, and the banks of the river, which give the river direction. Metaphorically, the power of the river, the strength of it, is in the water\u2014that is the feminine. The feminine is the energy and flow of the river, and the masculine of the river is the unchanging banks that give it its shape.<\/span><\/p>\n

Often, if a person is in a very feminine-identified moment and is having trouble making a decision because they’re flowing in many directions at once, it’s helpful for their masculine partner to provide river banking\u2014to offer an option. Not that they would necessarily listen to that option or obey, but just to have a concrete option, to be with someone who is decisive. That decisiveness allows the feminine partner to feel the power of her own flow. So river banking is the loving and gentle offering of banks to the flow of the river\u2014so that it’s not just flowing randomly, but flowing in a direction. Together, water and banks make a fullness of flow. Masculine and feminine together make a fullness of flow.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> Now, in the interest of full personal disclosure so I can bring my full authenticity to the conversation: at the very beginning of <\/span>The Man of Zero<\/span><\/i> you write that the book is primarily for heterosexual men and the women who love them. And yet here I am, a queer woman who has masculine and feminine energies running through me and through my sexuality, along with my partner, who also has a lot of masculine and feminine energy running through her life. I brought that beingness to reading <\/span>The Man of Zero<\/span><\/i>, and I have to say, David, I got so much from the book\u2014taking on both the masculine advice and the feminine advice. I imagine many readers may actually come with that kind of inner fluidity and flexibility. What are your thoughts about that?<\/span><\/p>\n

David Deida:<\/b> I hope they do come with that inner flexibility to the reading of this work. I write in a kind of black-and-white way, mostly because it’s easier for me\u2014rather than going through all the possible pronouns, gender identifications, and sexual orientations, I use the simplest form: masculine and feminine, or plus and minus, or he and she, or north and south poles. But I find that people are intelligent enough to apply it to their very unique situation as well as their unique sexuality. I write it in black and white, but I hope it’s read in a way where people can apply it to their own circumstances. In a live workshop, I would be unpacking the principles into the specifics for each individual’s questions. So I would strongly encourage people to modify the principles to meet their situation, whatever it is.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> In this middle section of the book, “Sex at Zero”\u2014which I thought, “Am I going to be able to relate to this?”\u2014and I got so much out of it. One of the things you write about is how the feminine has a genius for testing your zero, and you give lots of examples: when she’s criticizing you, when she’s in conflict with what you’re doing or saying. Can you talk more about this testing of your zero, and maybe offer a classic example?<\/span><\/p>\n

David Deida:<\/b> The kind of peace and quiet is the essence of the masculine desire. Think of a monk or a yogi in a cave, or a guy alone in an office doing his thing\u2014that guides a lot of the masculine toward where it needs to go. Anytime the feminine partner, or a feminine-identified partner in the moment, is bringing charged energy to the moment, it will feel like a test to the more masculine partner, because that person has a choice: do I just rest in nothingness, or do I listen to the content? Do I follow what she’s saying? And if I drift a little and she gets angry because I’m not paying attention, that also feels like a test\u2014can I attend to her without drifting?<\/span><\/p>\n

What the feminine finds most compelling in their partner, when that person is in a masculine moment, is direction, confidence, and clarity\u2014not confusion, but conciseness, depth, integrity. The universal feminine is constantly testing the masculine\u2014not intentionally; it’s not a thought, “I am going to test the masculine now.” It’s more of a feeling: <\/span>Can I trust this person? Can I trust this person’s presence? Will they collapse when I challenge this? Do they stay relaxed in their body or do they clench up and pull away?<\/span><\/i><\/p>\n

The feminine is always feeling: can I trust this person? Can I trust their depth, their integrity? That testing can be very frustrating to a lot of masculine people, because they would rather not deal with it. But it’s such a big part of the book because it’s so prevalent, so common, and it results in so much conflict in relationship\u2014where the masculine partner thinks the feminine partner is causing trouble, making an issue where there is none. The masculine partner tries to bring the conversation to a resolution, whereas the feminine partner\u2014if they’re in their feminine\u2014is just enjoying the exchange, enjoying the flow of love, tone of voice, the delight of talking. For the masculine, the delight is in silence.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> It’s interesting that we’re talking about having our zero tested, because in the first segment of the book you talk about how the man of zero relates to inherited patterns\u2014patterns of being triggered by this, that, or the other thing. How does the man of zero work with inherited patterns of contraction when they come up?<\/span><\/p>\n

David Deida:<\/b> This is a huge one. We inherit patterns from our past\u2014from our childhood, from the way our parents treated us, but also from our parents’ childhoods and our grandparents’ childhoods. We inherit tendencies from ancestors running through us. Not only human ancestors, but animal ancestors\u2014mammalian patterns. Mammals show patterns of violence and sexual aggression that also appear in humans.<\/span><\/p>\n

A man of zero’s approach to this is that these patterns from the past\u2014he didn’t create them, he inherited them. They’re coming up. He might notice violent thoughts, for instance. A man of zero simply witnesses those thoughts. He lets them move through him. He doesn’t contract around them, doesn’t push them away, doesn’t enact them. He allows them to come up in awareness and dissipate. Through that means, his personal past, his family’s past, his ancestors’ past, his mammalian past becomes purified over time\u2014released in the light of awareness. Slowly his life becomes purified of these past tendencies. Otherwise he’ll just act them out over and over. And a key difference: a man of zero doesn’t feel shame or guilt for these thoughts arising. He understands that they’re inherited.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> One of the lines I pulled from the book because it really got my attention: “A man of zero doesn’t feel bad about being in a bad mood.” I thought, that’s interesting\u2014I often feel bad when I’m in a bad mood. Like I’m not bringing joy into the room. And yet of course it happens. Your point is to feel it, be aware of it, and let it change, let it pass\u2014is that correct?<\/span><\/p>\n

David Deida:<\/b> Yes. There are very specific techniques you could use\u2014if you have trauma in the body, somatic releasing techniques; if you have trauma inherited through family patterns, family constellation work. There are specific forms of psychotherapeutic and somatic work that help loosen these things.<\/span><\/p>\n

And this is a point I’m not sure we want to open fully right now, but a lot of people who are relatively spiritually evolved\u2014pretty loving, open people, connected to a deep source\u2014still have these inheritances. Maybe they inherited alcoholism, which for some is a genetic inheritance. Even if they’ve relaxed into zero, even if they’re fully present with no resistance, those addictive tendencies will arise. Their body will move through addictive processes even though they’re being loving. That doesn’t mean they’re not loving\u2014it means their body has inherited those patterns. The body may inherit aggressions, all kinds of traits that aren’t what we’d consider, for lack of a better word, enlightened\u2014and yet they occur. This is not the exception; it’s the rule. Anyone who’s spent enough time in spiritual practice knows that a lot of practitioners have their twists\u2014sometimes from family, sometimes from species inheritance. It’s really important to understand that being a very present and loving person doesn’t mean that these contractions no longer arise. They do still arise.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> You’re making some important discriminations here. And toward the end of the book, you write about the value of discrimination itself\u2014you compare it to a kind of earning power for the man of zero. Can you say more about that?<\/span><\/p>\n

David Deida:<\/b> There are two types of value we’re working with in this book. One is the value of depth\u2014just being sourced deeply creates value; people want to be around you. But another type of value is discrimination, which means making distinctions. If you wanted to be a wine connoisseur, you’d need to make many distinctions\u2014a certain amount of tannins, aromatic flavors, the aftertaste, the opening. Someone who’s a lousy lover\u2014well, they’re just going through the motions. Someone who’s an exquisite lover can tell the difference between moving their hand a quarter inch to the left or right on their partner, or moving on the exhale versus the inhale. They’re making many, many fine distinctions. And in any domain\u2014sexual, culinary, nuclear physics\u2014the more distinctions you can make, the more valuable you become to others.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> I’d never really thought of it that way before, David. I found that very illuminating. I notice in our conversation I’m tempted to ask you a lot of personal questions, and I know you’re a very private person. So you can just tell me to back off if you want\u2014and I know you would. But when it comes to a man of zero being tested by the feminine, tested by life, I’m curious: what tests you?<\/span><\/p>\n

David Deida:<\/b> Anytime things don’t go the way I want them to. I’m tested like anybody else. When people seem to be interfering\u2014was it Sartre who said, “Others are hell”?\u2014there’s just a generalized feeling that when things aren’t happening the way you want, you wish they were.<\/span><\/p>\n

The difference is that as a man of zero, you don’t collapse. You notice things aren’t going the way you want. You don’t add anything; you don’t subtract anything. You stay fully present and let the next moment emerge from that source of creativity. It’s like a painter or musician who, after years of practice and having the technique down, learns to let go and let a deeper intelligence\u2014musical intelligence, painting intelligence\u2014come forth. They can’t quite predict what they’ll create next. They’re in a state of: I don’t know. I don’t know what note I’m going to make next, exactly\u2014but I’m going to feel it. I’m going to come from the deepest place I can and let life be lived from that place. That’s how you begin to make decisions, even when things aren’t going the way you might want them to.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> And in terms of inherited patterns of contraction\u2014if you’re willing\u2014what might be one of the inherited patterns you’ve had to work through, and what has the purification process looked like for you?<\/span><\/p>\n

David Deida:<\/b> People tend to manifest patterns in different realms. Some always seem to be in financial trouble\u2014they manifest their contractions financially. Others tend to be emotional wrecks, always going through an emotional issue. I seem to collect mine in the physical domain. I’ve noticed that I physically manifest contractions that I’m not always consciously aware of. My mind can be fairly clear, my emotions fairly calm, but my body will tend to manifest contractions. So everybody has their own domain where their contractions tend to show up.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> You mentioned that the man of zero approaches the question of value in terms of the depth of presence. One section of the book that really struck me had to do with the masculine providing stability through financial power\u2014and then you asked: what if the woman actually has more money than the man? And you wrote that the stability a man can provide that is an even deeper form of masculine stability than money is his undistracted, unwavering attention. I’d like to hear more about how the man of zero brings undistracted, unwavering attention to a woman who’s coming at him with upset or criticism. How do I bring undistracted, unwavering attention when I don’t want to?<\/span><\/p>\n

David Deida:<\/b> The main thing is to understand that not-wanting-to. The masculine inherently loves emptiness, silence, less argument\u2014not more. When your more feminine partner is coming toward you with energy and words, there’s going to be a kind of flinch in a masculine person. They may love each other very much\u2014this has nothing to do with love\u2014but there’s a flinch: <\/span>Oh, this is going to be a lot to deal with.<\/span><\/i><\/p>\n

So the first thing to do is notice what threatens you, and then sink into the nothingness. Find the place in you that’s the same awareness before your partner comes to you, while your partner is with you, and after your partner leaves. There’s a beingness that’s there all the time. By relaxing as that beingness, you stabilize as that presence more and more over time. That’s the first step.<\/span><\/p>\n

The next step is to feel her energy as energy. Feel her emotions as energy\u2014feel the energy in her body flowing. Don’t run from it, don’t freeze it, don’t hold it; just completely be with it. And then feel <\/span>under<\/span><\/i> that energy. She may be upset, she may be happy, but under that energy\u2014whatever emotion she’s feeling\u2014there’s a kind of universal desire for love and awareness in her heart. In my heart. In your heart. In all hearts. And so you connect to that oneness, that aware being in her heart that is the same as yours. You feel her energy going up, going down, hot, cold\u2014you feel it as it is\u2014and you stay rested in the depth of being itself, which is the depth of your being and her being. There’s just a quality of love when you rest being-to-being with any creature. And that testing is really an important point. It’s a big part of the book, because otherwise couples can get into very serious conflict if they don’t understand why it’s happening.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> It’s pretty easy to be at zero when nothing’s coming at you. It’s under stress that it’s challenging.<\/span><\/p>\n

David Deida:<\/b> Totally. That’s why men become monks\u2014it’s far easier to be a monk than to be married, and it’s easier to be married than to be married with children. The more complexity you have, the farther you’re stretched from zero, and the more you’ll tend to contract into fear, panic, and anxiety. If nothing’s happening, it’s pretty easy to relax at zero. That’s why the tests come in\u2014in the form of the feminine, the world, the partner, everything that changes, all the forces that change that you experience daily.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> Toward the beginning of <\/span>The Man of Zero<\/span><\/i>, you offered a framework that I found very clear and helpful: there’s what you call the basic man, then level two\u2014the superior man\u2014and now level three\u2014the man of zero. Before we go on, and because I have a little surprise question for you, can you describe all three in terms of having a sense of purpose in life\u2014so everybody’s tracking with us?<\/span><\/p>\n

David Deida:<\/b> They’re not really stages, they’re more like phases. When one is being a basic man, it means you have very specific needs that aren’t being fulfilled, and you need them fulfilled\u2014food, money, shelter, a certain amount of friendship in your life. Establishing these basic needs is what I mean by a basic man. It’s not a criticism; everyone needs to tend to that.<\/span><\/p>\n

Superior man is when you have enough of those needs met and you begin to look at how you can earn <\/span>better<\/span><\/i>, how you can give your gift to the world. It’s not just wanting more\u2014it’s wanting better. You become a master. You don’t just want to golf; you want to become really good at golfing. You don’t just want to have sex; you want to become really good at it. You learn to serve others. You learn that what most fulfills your sense of purpose is serving others.<\/span><\/p>\n

Now, most people who do that for a period of time come to a period where that’s no longer fulfilling. They’re serving others, achieving mastery, and it’s still somehow empty. At that point can begin the way of zero. The man of zero adds nothing to the moment, subtracts nothing from the moment. He is with the moment fully present, allowing the past contractions from his life\u2014from his family’s life, from his mammalian inheritance\u2014to come up and release and purify themselves over time.<\/span><\/p>\n

So: basic man\u2014getting your basic needs met. Superior man\u2014becoming an artist of life. Man of zero\u2014when being itself is sufficient. You could sit for days doing nothing. Or something could happen and you could get up and do something very intensely for days, then sit and do nothing again. These phases come and go. I’ve been in the man of zero phase for a while, and then this book rose up to be written. I didn’t plan it; it just started happening. But I didn’t resist it. When the book started writing itself, I just cooperated with it.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> And this is what you mean in the subtitle by “Freedom Beyond Ambition”\u2014that this book didn’t come from an ambitious place in you.<\/span><\/p>\n

David Deida:<\/b> Yes. A man of zero no longer lives from a place of ambition. Up until that point, ambition is what moves him. He feels he can’t do anything without it; his life doesn’t mean anything without it. Once you’ve stabilized post-ambition, life lives through you. Life is beating your heart, breathing your breath, moving your body, speaking your words. Life is living through you, so ambition doesn’t need to be the cause of things. Your freedom is beyond the ambition.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> The surprise question: do you think there’s a similar phase unfolding for women that you would describe differently\u2014basic, superior, and woman of zero? Is there language you would use?<\/span><\/p>\n

David Deida:<\/b> Yes, certainly. This book was for a very specific slice of the population I wanted to focus on. But yes\u2014as a more feminine-identified person grows, rather than looking for love outside of herself, she begins to be lived by love. Even though she still wants to share love, she doesn’t need to get it from someone else; she’s being lived by it. I wouldn’t call it a woman of zero\u2014maybe a woman of infinity, or a woman of power. She would be overflowing with fullness.<\/span><\/p>\n

When a woman has a baby, a child, or a new project, her love is overflowing. It’s all she can think about, talk about. There’s a sparkle to her eyes, her body is motivated, there’s a literal light about her\u2014her being is radiant. That love is the basis for what you might call a woman of infinity, just as presence is the basis for the man of zero. Ultimately they’re the same thing\u2014being divides into awareness and fullness, presence and radiance\u2014but being itself is obviously prior to sexual differentiation.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> I like the three-phase model. So the basic woman says, “I need love out there, where’s my soulmate?”\u2014I’m exaggerating to make the point. And the woman of infinity is overflowing with full love expression. What would you say is the superior step in the middle?<\/span><\/p>\n

David Deida:<\/b> That’s a good question, and there are a few chapters specifically about this in <\/span>The Man of Zero<\/span><\/i>. When we’re talking about the feminine, we’re talking about fullness or scarcity\u2014that’s the spectrum. When she’s feeling a lot of scarcity, a lack of abundance, she’ll be in a basic mode: needy, grasping for something she thinks she doesn’t have. Skip to the other end: the abundant woman who overflows continuously and transforms wherever she goes into a place of love. In between those two extremes is the middle range\u2014things that are full, but not exceptionally so. Having a delicious meal is very enjoyable to the feminine\u2014you feel a little hungry, and now you’re eating. Good conversation with friends. Going out in nature. Anything that makes life feel full: hanging out with friends, some good wine, good conversation, a meal, maybe some music. That would be the superior woman phase, if you will\u2014life feeling full, feeling pleasurable, in the middle range of fullness.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> I want to get to the “Boundless Sex” in the subtitle. Your new book is <\/span>The Man of Zero: A Guide to Primal Power, Boundless Sex, and the Freedom Beyond Ambition<\/span><\/i>. What do you mean by boundless sex? Is that the man of zero meeting the woman of infinite love, these two coming together?<\/span><\/p>\n

David Deida:<\/b> Certainly that would be one form. The way I use it more in the book is this: what happens a lot at the zero phase is that a man might feel he’s no longer attracted to his partner sexually. His subjective feeling is, “I’m not attracted to her anymore.” But what he really means is he’s not attracted in the way he used to be. The way he used to be attracted was to a particular appearance, shape of body, maybe a fetish. But that’s not the fullest form of love\u2014that’s highly bounded love.<\/span><\/p>\n

Boundless love is unbounded love. Love without bounds means you can lay next to your partner and not necessarily have genital or flesh sex, but lay with each other in so much love\u2014you could call it tantric cuddling\u2014where you would both feel no bounds. Your boundaries would relax, and you’d be in an oneness, like a cocoon of oneness together. That can feel as good as any sex can feel. So it’s a literal boundary-free, boundless love where the boundaries around your sense of self open and you and your partner are in a kind of communion without limits, without separation. Boundless.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> David, it seems like the journey to zero requires going into the loss of the superior ways of being\u2014in order for something deeper to come into expression. This reminds me of the notion of deficient emptiness\u2014a sense of emptiness as lack\u2014and how that can turn into the fullness of presence. From deficient emptiness to full emptiness. Can you share how you understand that?<\/span><\/p>\n

David Deida:<\/b> As soon as you notice that you’re feeling empty, that noticing itself is a powerful act\u2014and there’s no deficiency in noticing. You might be comparing your current sense of fullness to the past and thinking, “I felt more full before. I feel less full now.” But that noticing itself\u2014that you’re more full or less full\u2014is the nature of your being, the nature of your awareness. There’s no deficiency in that. It’s totally sufficient, totally complete.<\/span><\/p>\n

You know you’re in it, so to speak, when you don’t feel moved to do anything. You feel completely sufficient. The isness of being is so intensely present and yet effortless at the same time. It’s a very distinct sense of what that is.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> You are getting to what I’m asking. Another way I’d like to ask you to point to this: you talked about how our sense of “here’s my agenda in the world\u2014I’m going to help in all these ways”\u2014that can become a “who cares?” at a certain point. Done that. I have no energy for it. It’s not animated anymore. And now you’re talking about how it’s possible to look at your beloved partner and feel, “I used to be so turned on by you and now I feel neutral.” That could also be a doorway, a portal. What other examples might there be of bumping up against something that used to be full of shining light and now seems empty\u2014and how we might go through it rather than away from it?<\/span><\/p>\n

David Deida:<\/b> There are as many examples as there are people. Somebody could work at a profession they truly love\u2014they wake up in the morning and can’t wait to go do it\u2014and then suddenly they’re no longer moved to do that thing. It could be professional. It could be with family: someone has several children they’re enjoying raising, a good family, everyone loves each other, and suddenly the parent feels, “What have I done with my life? I don’t want to be a parent.” This can apply to anything, because in fact everything becomes a doorway to nothingness for the masculine. There’s a deep peace and quiet beneath everything, and that’s the masculine’s home.<\/span><\/p>\n

So the masculine over time learns that the dissatisfaction it feels with what I call “woman in world”\u2014which is a phrase I use in the book\u2014is natural, and that it shouldn’t collapse; instead, it should feel more, even without being motivated anymore. That sense of being open, of being alive, being sparklingly conscious\u2014not dull, not collapsed, but wide open and clear\u2014that’s what zero feels like. It doesn’t feel like dullness, depletion, or depression. Those are misunderstandings of zero. And that’s why I wrote the book, so people could go: “Oh, I see. I don’t have to collapse. I could be not motivated and stay wide open and loving and full and creative.” That’s what <\/span>The Man of Zero<\/span><\/i> is about.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> I’ve been talking with David Deida, about his new book, <\/span>The Man of Zero: A Guide to Primal Power, Boundless Sex, and the Freedom Beyond Ambition<\/span><\/i>. David, I think like <\/span>The Way of the Superior Man<\/span><\/i>, this book is going to get a tremendous amount of pass-around\u2014person to person to person. I wonder if you’d be willing to do something a little different and read a section of the book that you particularly like.<\/span><\/p>\n

David Deida:<\/b> I’d have to find the section\u2014let me grab a copy right now.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> Let’s do it.<\/span><\/p>\n

David Deida:<\/b> Okay. I just opened it randomly to a page. This gives me the opportunity to mention something: this book is written in very short chapters. Some of the chapters are just a few lines each. The way it’s really meant to be read is to pick it up randomly, read a page or two, and set it down. It’s not the kind of book you read from beginning to end, cover to cover. It’s more about taking little pieces and unpacking them. Each little piece is very rich\u2014you can’t eat too much. I’d say the reader should take just one or two pages at a time.<\/span><\/p>\n

So here’s a very short chapter. It’s called “Love Is an Agony.”<\/span><\/p>\n

Love Is an Agony.<\/span><\/i><\/p>\n

Noticing anything is more heartbreaking than noticing nothing. Even being vulnerable to beauty may hurt. Without resistance, be permeable to suffering. Love is an agony that doesn’t contract.<\/span><\/i><\/p>\n

That’s the section.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon:<\/b> That was one of my favorite chapters, as a matter of fact. David Deida, reading from <\/span>The Man of Zero<\/span><\/i>. David, thank you so much for being our guest on <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>.<\/span><\/p>\n

David Deida:<\/b> Thank you, Tami. You’re a great interviewer, as always. Thank you very much.<\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"template":"","meta":{"_expiration-date-status":"","_expiration-date":0,"_expiration-date-type":"","_expiration-date-categories":[],"_expiration-date-options":[]},"class_list":["post-25677","transcript","type-transcript","status-publish","hentry"],"yoast_head":"\nDavid Deida: The Way of Zero | Sounds True<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"noindex, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"David Deida: The Way of Zero | Sounds True\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"David Deida: Wide open and clear. That’s what zero feels like. It doesn’t feel like a dullness. It doesn’t feel like a depletion. It doesn’t feel like a depression. 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