{"id":27960,"date":"2026-11-02T20:41:28","date_gmt":"2026-11-03T03:41:28","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?post_type=transcript&p=27960"},"modified":"2026-11-02T20:41:28","modified_gmt":"2026-11-03T03:41:28","slug":"terri-cole-healing-the-worthiness-wound","status":"publish","type":"transcript","link":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/terri-cole-healing-the-worthiness-wound\/","title":{"rendered":"Terri Cole: \u201cHealing the Worthiness Wound\u201d"},"content":{"rendered":"
\"image_print\"Print Transcript<\/span><\/a><\/div>

Terri Cole: You can absolutely love your father and still have a father wound.<\/span><\/p>\n

You can do this work if your father’s alive. You don’t need his permission or participation, ever, because the way I’m doing this differently is that it’s not about them. Maybe, just for once in our lives, can it actually just be about us and what we experienced\u2014the truth.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon: In this episode of Insights at the Edge, my guest is Terri Cole, a licensed psychotherapist, relationship expert, best-selling author, and friend of Sounds True. For nearly three decades, she has helped people break dysfunctional patterns, create healthier boundaries, and build more fulfilling relationships with themselves and others. With Sounds True, Terri Cole is the author of what I think of as a trilogy. It began with Boundary Boss, and we refer to her as the Boundary Boss, talking about how to develop and maintain healthy boundaries and verbalize them. Her second book, on breaking the cycle of high-functioning codependency, is called Too Much. And now a third book, which is what we’re going to be talking about today. It’s called Father Wound: Break Unhealthy Patterns to Reclaim Your Worth and Power. Terri, welcome.<\/span><\/p>\n

Terri Cole: Hey, Tami, thanks for having me.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon: Father Wound, a very personal book for you. Tell us about the inspiration behind the book.<\/span><\/p>\n

Terri Cole: Well, as with everything that I teach, they say that you teach what you most need to learn, and this is a very personal and true experience for me. My own experience\u2014I mean, my original injury in life, for sure, is having a father wound. And so I think I wrote this book last in the trilogy partly because I was trying to avoid writing it.<\/span><\/p>\n

I feel like it’s a little bit easier to write the other things. This one was really revisiting a painful part of my history. But I knew if I needed it, then so many other women did too. Because, Tam, it’s not just about what kind of father you had, whether you had a father, whether your father or father figure abandoned you or was abusive or was just not attuned\u2014clueless, addicted.<\/span><\/p>\n

There are a million ways to get to a father wound. There are so many roads, and they’re not all egregious. Some people think, “Well, my father wasn’t that bad.” Okay. He could be not that bad, and you could still have not gotten what you wanted or what you needed. But the real situation for all women is that we were all raised in a patriarchy, and so if you think about who’s the original bad daddy, we would have to say it is the patriarchy, and the way women are socialized to believe a lot of limiting beliefs about being the “weaker sex,” quote unquote, and all the other things.<\/span><\/p>\n

And even though that’s been changing, this kind of systemic, collective belief takes a really long time to change. And then you have situations where different people get into power, in the US, that sort of makes you go backwards in the way of women.<\/span><\/p>\n

So there are lots of different ways to get to father wounds. And what I saw in my therapy practice was that there was a need for me to write this book, because I call it an invisible wound. Just like me\u2014I was highly successful, and I was suffering. But nobody would have looked at me and thought, “Gee, I hope Terri’s okay,” because I was always okay. And obviously I’m okay now, too.<\/span><\/p>\n

So it’s a wound that can really go under the radar. And what my hope is for this book is that in bringing it into the light, I will help\u2014my goal is ten million women around the world\u2014honor and integrate this wound, so that we are liberated to do what we need to do to save this world, because it needs some saving right now.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon: At the beginning of the book, you offer a definition of the father wound.<\/span><\/p>\n

Terri Cole: Mhm.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon: It’s really helpful: “A father wound is the imprint left when a daughter doesn’t receive protection, presence, or emotional attunement from her father.” Share with me how you came to this working definition.<\/span><\/p>\n

Terri Cole: Well, I think it was almost thirty years in the trenches with women who had these wounds that I realized people\u2014the women themselves\u2014minimized what they experienced. They thought if they didn’t have a father who had physically abused them or really been horrible, that they should feel lucky. “Just be grateful for what you did get\u2014he put a roof over your head.” What I came to realize is that the lack of attunement is really damaging. It’s really damaging.<\/span><\/p>\n

So what does it do? What are the seeds that it plants? That’s really the question. It plants seeds of having to work for love, feeling like you have to add value. The idea of being inherently worthy is missing in father-wounded daughters. We feel like we have to do stuff to be worthy, and that sets you up to be in one-sided relationships. It sets up high-functioning codependency. It sets up disordered boundaries\u2014which are all the books that I wrote that led to this book. But it’s actually true: those are two very deep indications of potentially having a father wound.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon: When you mentioned having to earn love, and there not being emotional attunement from your father, I felt like you were pulling an arrow back and releasing it from the bow, and it went right into the center of my chest. And I’m sure for many, many listeners, they relate to that. But it’s interesting to me that you call it a kind of invisible wound, because I noticed\u2014even reading the book, I was like, “Okay, clearly, bang on, that’s true, I have a father wound”\u2014and I was kind of like, “Let’s keep going. Big deal.” So how it’s invisible seems really important to me.<\/span><\/p>\n

Terri Cole: It is, because as women, we learn to tolerate a lot.<\/span><\/p>\n

So, I grew up with a father who had four daughters. I was his last chance for a son, in my mind. I was a daughter, so I was, like, born a disappointment. And I spent years trying to prove myself. I had such a chip on my shoulder about success, about my brains, about what I would do. I was really like, “I will be more successful than any stupid son this guy could have had,” because I knew the only way to get my father’s attention was through achievement\u2014through doing something that he thought was valuable. So, again, I was working for his approval, his achievement. It set me up to be such a people pleaser as well.<\/span><\/p>\n

But what you really learn, if you didn’t have a father who was protective\u2014and I don’t mean in a crazy way, I just mean in a normal way, “let me teach you how to change your tire in case you get a flat and you’re alone and it’s late, I’m thinking about you”\u2014I had none of those things.<\/span><\/p>\n

So what ends up happening is you don’t know how to protect yourself in relationships. You make yourself vulnerable, often to the wrong people. You’re over-functioning, overworking, over-giving, and so much of it has to do with wanting to control. If you look at codependency and these one-sided relationships\u2014what is codependency? It’s an overt or covert desire to control someone else’s outcomes, the way they feel about you, what they think about you, what is happening in their life, because you don’t feel like you have control. So I think it’s such a setup to be in unsatisfying relationships. If you think about the vast amount that a lot of women tolerate in their relationships, often it was this original wound that taught them what could be expected.<\/span><\/p>\n

With my father, there was no expectation that he would do anything but make money, and he did. But there was nothing else there. He didn’t go to our school games. He didn’t eat with us, because he was such a workaholic. He was also a high-functioning alcoholic\u2014he drank every night but never missed a day of work.<\/span><\/p>\n

That’s the most insidious kind of alcoholism, where there are no consequences, because he had such discipline around it. But what did that teach me about what I could expect from men? The answer was: not much. And for sure, men were not, in my life, people to be related to in a heart-centered way. No, thank you. They were people you could not trust and should not trust.<\/span><\/p>\n

How does that set you up? It absolutely impacts what happens in your adult life, because those adaptations that are absolutely brilliant in childhood\u2014nobody needs to tell a kid how to lessen their pain. What behavior do you need to display to have less pain in this relationship? “Oh, well, I won’t show when I’m weak, and I won’t cry, because I know he can’t comfort me and won’t. But I can show him when I get an A,” or whatever. He would give us money for good grades. There was a lot of no time together, but a decent amount of exchange of money. He would give money for things instead of his time. That doesn’t necessarily set you up for good relationships in adulthood. You would think it would stay in childhood, but it absolutely doesn’t. It just follows us, because we’re already habituated into this behavior.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon: I want to share a personal story for a moment. I’m not going to name the person, but I was going to lunch with a famous, very accomplished male author, and I mentioned to him, “I feel nervous meeting you.” And he said, “Why do you feel nervous?” And I said, “I don’t know. I just have so much respect for you, and I feel quite anxious.” And he said, “Well, what was your relationship with your father like?” And I shared how I had a good relationship with my father, that he always adored me, I was his favorite, and how I used to crawl on his lap and look at what was happening in the stock market, because that’s what my father was doing. And I convinced him to buy a stock for me so I could track it with him. And this author said, “Tami, no young child should have to charm their father into paying attention. What was actually going on, that you had to earn your father’s love like this?” And it was like the first moment I got it\u2014that I had been charming older men, trying to impress them with how smart I was, and that I was still doing this, dare I say, at sixty. So I’m wondering how you can help us bust that projection we have of, “Will you finally be the father who loves me?<\/span><\/p>\n

Terri Cole: “Who loves me without all of these conditions? Who loves me without me shape-shifting into being something that is palatable for you?” Yes, I can. And that’s really what we walk through in the book. One of the first things we do is your Downloaded Father Wound Blueprint\u2014it’s an extensive set of questions. When you think about blueprints, which I’ve written about in all of my books, because I find them to be very helpful tools or vehicles for deeper understanding, think of it as an architectural blueprint for a house that someone else designed long ago. You start to get an idea when you answer these questions, because there’s no one-size-fits-all for anyone. Your life experience is completely unique to mine, and to anyone else listening. There’s no way to say, “Do this, and there’s your answer.” I’m nobody’s guru, but I’m definitely a damn good GPS to get people to the answers they need to be liberated from these repetitions\u2014because that’s really what you’re saying. How can we help readers be liberated from these less-than-optimal relational repetitions that are happening in their lives? That’s really what we want to do. We want to be free to actually choose what we’re doing, with awareness.<\/span><\/p>\n

So the first thing is, when you do this extensive set of questions\u2014and I provide all of this in the book, as you know, my books are not meant to be read, they are meant to be done. You’ll be doing my book, even if you’re listening to it, because you need to customize those questions to your own answers\u2014that’s the path to your own liberation, which is a different path than mine.<\/span><\/p>\n

So when you answer, you start to look and go, “How was fatherhood viewed in my family system, the country I grew up in, the culture I grew up in?” Because we have to take all of those mitigating factors into consideration\u2014what was your macro view of fatherhood, and what was your granular experience with your father? Because all of these things come together and make up how we are in the world, because of what we did or did not experience with our fathers.<\/span><\/p>\n

I did an interview with someone the other day who had gotten an early copy of the book. She’s had her own podcast for fifteen years. She’s amazing, and she said, “Terri, I have to tell you, I’ve been in therapy for like thirty years. I’ve been a therapist for thirty years, and I cannot believe I just had the epiphany reading your book that I actually have a father wound.” And she said, “Let me tell you why. My father loved me more than anyone in the world. He absolutely adored me. But my father was a twin, and his twin was an alcoholic, and his twin spent a ton of time at my house. Every summer, I spent the entire summer at a lake house with my father’s drunk brother. My father did not protect us from this out-of-control adult, and that impacted every part of my life. How I didn’t trust men, how I had to over-function, how I felt like the only way to stay safe was to stay in control.” She was having all of these epiphanies.<\/span><\/p>\n

So I think it’s important that we talk about the block to entry that sometimes exists for people, because they feel guilty. “My father did better than his father. His father was abusive, mine wasn’t, so I don’t\u2014I feel like I shouldn’t complain. My father wasn’t that bad. My father provided a roof over our head.” There are all of these ways that we justify someone else’s behavior. But what I want to say to listeners is that you can absolutely love your father and still have a father wound.<\/span><\/p>\n

You can do this work if your father is alive, and you don’t need his permission or participation, ever, because the way I’m doing this differently is that it’s not about them. Maybe, just for once in our lives, can it actually just be about us and what we experienced\u2014the truth. No justification, just the truth of what you experienced in your childhood. And I walk you through how to access these memories and experiences in the basement of your mind, slowly but surely. The book is very trauma-informed, so nothing is going to come cracking anybody wide open. Everything is slow and gentle, but we have to go back to go forward.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon: It’s interesting, because it’s at the very end of the book that you offer, for people who want to do this work, an addendum on how you might, with your living father, if he’s still alive, help heal the father wound in relationship with that person. But you’re very clear that part of the book is optional. I thought that was\u2014I’ve never quite seen that approach, and it seems extraordinarily intentional that you did it that way.<\/span><\/p>\n

Terri Cole: Yes, it was. Because here’s the thing: there are going to be people who finish chapter ten and say, “I’m complete. That’s exactly what I needed. I feel good. I have a deep understanding of whatever it is, or I feel like I honored what I needed to for my child within, and I’m feeling good.” Great\u2014leave it there.<\/span><\/p>\n

The addendum is for, let’s say, your father passed away and you feel like you want some kind of sacred ritual that you can do\u2014you don’t really feel like you marked it in a way that felt good to you. I give you rituals for a father who’s passed away. Or let’s say your father is too intrusive, wants more from you than you want, and you want to change that experience\u2014it’s called Changing the Dance. It’s literally a flow chart: “Okay, go to page 212,” and that will tell you how to do that. If you have a father you’ve been contemplating going no-contact with, because they are so unhealthy, or so toxic, or creating so much pain in your life still, I walk you through how to do that in the safest way.<\/span><\/p>\n

It speaks to the differences we have. But there’s one thing I put at the very end of the addendum, which I wouldn’t want anyone doing before they did the work\u2014it was literally the last thing I put in the book. Once you’ve done your healing work, and you’ve honored the child within you and your childhood experiences in a real way, sometimes it’s helpful to learn more about your father from other people. So I give you questions you can ask.<\/span><\/p>\n

I tell a story about, after my father passed, I said to my mother, because my father was very stunted emotionally, “Mom, why? He literally had the emotional IQ of a sneaker, I’m not kidding. Why do you think he was so limited?” And she said, “Terri, I don’t know, other than\u2014” My parents were high school sweethearts. She was a cheerleader, and he was captain of the team. And she said, “When your father was a senior in high school, he and his best friend were coming back from an away basketball game, and they flipped a coin to see who would drive. Your father lost the toss. It was snowy, it was upstate New York, and there was a car accident. His best friend died in the car he was driving.” And the best friend’s mother, who my father had known his entire life\u2014keep in mind, my father was a hero in this little upstate New York town\u2014she was publicly blaming him for killing her son. So there was public humiliation, being ostracized, all of these really painful things. My mother said, “I don’t know what that did to him, but it couldn’t have been good.” And it gave me some insight\u2014maybe he just shut it all down, like feeling was too painful.<\/span><\/p>\n

So, for me, it was helpful. The risk of having any of that information before you do the work is that, as women, we have a tendency to be too forgiving to begin with, too understanding\u2014”He had a rough experience.” Sometimes women will stay in relationships with someone abusive because they had a terribly abusive childhood themselves, and they think, “How can I leave when everyone else left?” So I put it intentionally way at the end, because it’s not right for everyone. If your father was horribly abusive, you probably don’t need to know more about him\u2014that’s enough, we don’t want to provoke any more. So it won’t be for everyone. But so far, the people who have read the book and read that part said, “That is so helpful,” because they either wanted less contact with their father, or more contact with their father, to do a ritual or whatever. I tried to think of everything you might need to really feel closure.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon: I want to go back for a moment to the father wound trance\u2014that’s what I’m going to call it\u2014because in my life, in relationship to certain powerful men, especially those who are quite financially accomplished (which, as a little girl, is the way I saw my father), I can see how the trance is operating, and then I can snap out of it, but then I go back. I’m currently working this out with a man in my life, and I change the channel, but then I go back. How do I not get taken over by the trance? I understand it, but it still operates.<\/span><\/p>\n

Terri Cole: I think you could understand it more deeply. I walk you through a process\u2014really, no matter how you look at it, it’s some kind of transference happening in that moment. What is transference? If you don’t know, it’s when, in current time, you’re having an experience that is familiar to an experience from the past that is still sticky in some way, that still needs a little bit of attention. So it gets confusing. It means you’ll have potentially an amplified experience in the present with this person, because you’re in the father wound trance, as you say, or you’re having a transference.<\/span><\/p>\n

So I’ll give you a tool: ask yourself, “Who does this person remind me of right now? Where have I felt like this before? And how is this behavioral dynamic”\u2014as you said, charming, these powerful men with money\u2014”how is that familiar?” And then I invite you to get in your zen den and really write about it, because it isn’t enough to intellectually know. That’s one thing, to say, “Yeah, I have a father wound, and I get that this is happening.” But there’s something specific\u2014because what happens when you really know, and are released from it, is the compulsion to repeat that behavior becomes less and less, and then relatively gone.<\/span><\/p>\n

So if there’s still a compulsion to do it, yes, habituated behavior is part of that. But I also feel, from a therapeutic point of view, that there’s something still a little sticky about the original wound. So we just take our time, and lovingly, gently, compassionately go back to the original wound. What am I trying to get from this person? What do I feel is lacking with this person right now? How is this overlapping with the past? What is happening to the little girl within me? What does she need? What did she need that she didn’t get? These are all questions, and pretty much all of them are in the book, where you can really go through and get a little more granular\u2014simply because, if you were done, and there wasn’t something sticky, I believe the compulsion would be almost gone.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon: In a brilliant way, you describe, at the beginning of the book, how you met your future husband and couldn’t recognize him because your father wound was so operative in your life. Share about that, and what changed in you, that a few years later, you could recognize the connection. This is almost three decades ago now, yeah?<\/span><\/p>\n

Terri Cole: Correct. We’ve actually been together almost thirty years\u2014it’ll be thirty years in six months. When we got together, one of my clients, who was a talent agent, said, “Oh, you should date my best friend from high school. He’s nothing like me”\u2014because that guy was a total womanizer. And I said, “If he’s nothing like you, maybe I will.”<\/span><\/p>\n

We go on a date, and in my heart, even though he was everything that Dave had said he was\u2014smart, great-looking, successful, a well-known political artist, lived in New Jersey, had three kids, was widowed, so he was alone raising kids\u2014I couldn’t see him, but I knew he was good for somebody. So we stayed friends for years. We didn’t get together then, but I kept trying to fix him up with other women, because I was like, “Someone should marry this guy if it’s not going to be me.”<\/span><\/p>\n

And then, about three years later, the friend who had hooked us up said, “Hey, Vic is having a nervous breakdown about a breakup, can he call you?” I said, “Sure”\u2014I was literally graduating grad school the next week, and he said, “You’re almost a shrink.”<\/span><\/p>\n

So we talked, and he said, “Let me take you out to dinner, just as a thank you, as friends.” I still, for that dinner, brought another friend, because Vic was ten years older than me, and so was Dave, and so was this friend\u2014I knew she wanted to have kids, and I thought maybe she’d like him. So I hadn’t seen Vic in almost three years, and I’m sitting at this restaurant, and I look out the window\u2014there’s this huge plate-glass window\u2014and I see someone walking by with a white T-shirt, worn-in Levi’s, long hair in a ponytail, looked completely different. Tan, little teeny John Lennon glasses. I thought, “Who the hell is that?” And he walks in and sits down, and it’s Vic, and I’m shocked. Then I’m thinking about my friend, “Why did I invite her?”<\/span><\/p>\n

That night, we went outside to smoke, because everybody smoked\u2014it was the nineties, people, don’t judge. And he said, “Can I just say, whatever you’re doing is really agreeing with you?” And I said, “I was thinking the same thing.” He asked, “Do you want to go see jazz?” I forgot that I hate jazz and said, “Definitely.” So we ditched them and went to see jazz.<\/span><\/p>\n

But on the second date\u2014this is where we come all the way around\u2014I could not believe how attracted to him I was, after seeing him after three years, where suddenly I thought, “This guy has got his life together.” And suddenly that was appealing instead of boring, for some reason.<\/span><\/p>\n

On the second date, he just straight up said, “Let me ask you something: what do you really want in a relationship?” And this was the moment of truth for me. I’d been doing my father wound work for about three years, and I had already decided, previous to this, that I didn’t want to get married.<\/span><\/p>\n

I finally just embraced the truth of what I really didn’t want. I’d been in relationship after relationship where I had to make myself smaller, where my success was threatening to someone, or I cursed too much, or whatever\u2014they just wanted me to be different. And I thought, “I don’t want that. I have amazing friends, I’m traveling the world, I’ve got a bunch of careers\u2014I don’t need this.” So when he asked, I thought, “I can either pivot to the truth and just say it, or I can do what I’ve done in the past\u2014be sarcastic, say something snappy, be cute, be flirty, but not tell the truth.” And I said, “Just tell the truth.”<\/span><\/p>\n

So, for the first time really in my life, I just said it all. “If I’m going to partner with someone, they’ve got to bring something to the table that I cannot do, make, or get by myself. I want someone who has a fully funded retirement account, who’s willing to think about buying a second home, because I want a lake house. I want someone who’s not threatened by me in any way. I want someone who likes me the way that I am, who doesn’t want me to be different or smaller.” There was a very long list, and I said it all, and I got all the way to the end of the list, and I said, “How does that sound?” And he said, in his very mellow Pisces way, “Sounds good.”<\/span><\/p>\n

And that was it. I was like, we were madly in love after that. We got married in less than a year and a half, I guess. And that was almost thirty years ago.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon: Part of what I’m really curious about is, between the time you first met him and started setting him up with other women, because he wasn’t for you, and this second date\u2014what had changed in you, in terms of the father wound specifically, that enabled this recognition to happen?<\/span><\/p>\n

Terri Cole: I think it was honoring what I didn’t get, and understanding what I was repeating in my romantic relationships, and why. When I started talking about it in earnest\u2014because I really believe, as a therapist, that we can only talk it out or act it out. Those are literally your two choices. When I say “talk it out,” that could mean journaling or whatever, meaning it’s in your conscious mind. Because if it’s not, we’re acting it out. So for me, the need to act it out in my romantic relationships got less and less until it wasn’t there, because I was finally talking out how emotionally neglected I had been, how sad it was, how it turned me into a “pick me” girl, relationship-wise.<\/span><\/p>\n

It turned me into picking men who\u2014my Downloaded Father Wound Blueprint, and my Downloaded Love Blueprint, was about getting something from someone who is literally not capable of giving it to you. So I found myself in the same situation over and over again, with emotionally unavailable men.<\/span><\/p>\n

Then, once I was getting better, I started attracting men who were warm and verbal\u2014the opposite of my father. They were so amazing. I remember telling my therapist, “I kind of feel like I’m starting to crack the code on this, because the men I’ve been dating are so warm and present.” And she said, “Terri, no offense, but they live on other continents”\u2014because they were all European, one lived in Greece, one in Germany\u2014”I’m just saying, how does that leave you feeling, really?” And I said, “Oh my God, it leaves me feeling exactly the same: longing, left, neglected, abandoned\u2014all the same things.” So it can be very sneaky.<\/span><\/p>\n

But what changed was also my own ability to be intimate. Why was I choosing men who couldn’t be with me\u2014or couldn’t be with me emotionally? How about, I couldn’t be with them emotionally? I was so afraid, I didn’t trust. I was the queen of manipulating men\u2014management was my skill in relationships. I was managing the way my mother managed my father. I saw that, and I had to literally get to the point, in my therapeutic relationship with Bev, my therapist, of saying, “I don’t want a relationship with anyone I have to manage. Is it possible that I find a relationship with someone who could be a best friend that I still want to have sex with, that I still want to build a life with? Why does it have to be one or the other?”<\/span><\/p>\n

But what was required of me\u2014I came from this girl gang: three older sisters and my mother, we always had a girl dog, all my cousins were girls. My whole life was women. I have the same friends I’ve had since 1973\u2014literally the same seven people I travel with all the time. I knew how to have relationships with women, but with men, I couldn’t. I had that love blueprint that said, “Don’t trust.” So I had to go through the entire process of unpacking everything I didn’t want, what I experienced, what I saw, what was painful, where I was rejected, where my mother had an affair\u2014there was a whole bunch of family stuff I needed to unpack as well, to get out of that cynical place about love.<\/span><\/p>\n

But it was also about my nervous system, and my ability to be with someone who was consistent, who didn’t change. Vic is the same today as he was literally thirty years ago. Always a yes for me.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon: You said this interesting phrase, I’d never heard it before: “either talk it out or act it out.”<\/span><\/p>\n

Terri Cole: Mhm.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon: And I thought, well, in my own experience, and with people I know, there may be a lot of, “We’ve talked it out, but yet it’s still being acted out”\u2014even when you’ve told the story a hundred times, you’ve talked about it, but you’re still acting it out. Something hasn’t quite shifted, and that’s what I want to put under a magnifying glass\u2014that shift.<\/span><\/p>\n

Terri Cole: Something’s missing. Sometimes “talking it out,” to me, really means, in a therapeutic way, getting to the root of what happened. Because just knowing what happened in our lives\u2014that’s the thirty-thousand-foot view. We can say, “Oh, my father died before I was born,” and that’s the story. But that’s not the whole story, because there’s so much more to it. What happened for that person when, in second grade, there was a father-daughter dance, and she couldn’t go because her father wasn’t alive? There are all of these other experiences that happened for us. And I think it’s valuable, too, to look at what is the secondary gain of staying stuck.<\/span><\/p>\n

I looked at my own secondary gain of dating unavailable men\u2014what did I get to not face, not feel, or not experience, by staying stuck dating unavailable men? I didn’t have to be vulnerable. I really didn’t have to be deeply intimate, because I kept it all on the surface with people I was manipulating\u2014I wasn’t telling them the truth, I wasn’t letting them close to my most tender heart, because I didn’t trust them.<\/span><\/p>\n

So I write about secondary gain in the book, and I think it’s a really valuable tool. If anybody listening finds themselves stuck in an unwanted repetition\u2014relationally, or any other way\u2014it could be that you say you want to get healthier, but then you turn off your alarm in the morning and don’t work out, or don’t walk. Wherever you’re falling down on yourself, you have to look at that secondary gain, because the way our minds work is very, very smart. Your mind\u2014conscious and unconscious\u2014is doing something for you. It is sparing you something. And when we can understand what that something is, it makes it so much easier to actually make the changes.<\/span><\/p>\n

I’ll give a quick example. During the pandemic, I had a client who was drinking a lot, like so many people were. I didn’t suddenly assume all my clients were alcoholics because they were drinking and doing gummies\u2014people were just trying to get through lockdown. But she was really obsessed: “I don’t want to drink during the week, I really need you to hold me accountable.” It was a whole thing. The first week, she failed\u2014she said, “I made it to Tuesday.” The second week, “I barely made it to Monday, what’s wrong with me?”<\/span><\/p>\n

And I realized, “We’re not talking about the right thing. This isn’t about drinking, this is about something else.” So I asked her the secondary gain questions: “What do you get to not face, not feel, not experience, by having three big glasses of wine a night?” And she immediately said, “That my marriage is over.” I said, “Maybe we should be talking about your marriage, then.” The drinking was a distraction from what she had to deal with but didn’t feel equipped for. She said, “We’re in lockdown, how am I getting a divorce? I can’t kick him out, but I can’t stand him. I don’t know what to do.” They eventually did get a divorce. But that secondary gain question saved us probably another three months of talking about alcohol, when it wasn’t really about alcohol.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon: In terms of getting to the root, when it comes to the father wound\u2014a listener is tuning in as they’re hearing this, and at the root is a kind of utter pain, a devastation, and they realize that’s what they’ve been avoiding feeling. Like you asked\u2014what is the feeling of being in that relationship as a young daughter? What would you say to that listener now?<\/span><\/p>\n

Terri Cole: I would say, slowly but surely, you can remember. And there may be things you don’t remember, and we’re just going to leave them where they are. I don’t feel compelled to shake any memory tree. I don’t think it’s good, I don’t think we need to. But what I care about is that you acknowledge what little you experienced, because she is who needs your compassion and comfort.<\/span><\/p>\n

So yes, it’s painful to go back to painful memories. But if we do it right\u2014and I walk you through it in the book\u2014you don’t have to spend your life avoiding it, which is what ends up happening if we don’t do it. You end up avoiding it, consciously doing things to avoid it, and that leaves you running\u2014running from something rather than facing it. So I’m with you every step of the way in this book, holding your hand. I’ve got a little miner’s light on my head to go down into that basement and figure out what it is that you need to honor. We don’t have to get into all the nitty-gritty\u2014unless we do. If it comes up and you want to talk about it, if you want to write about it in the integration exercises I provide in the book, do it. And there are opportunities\u2014if people want to walk through the book, we’re having a book club. I’m also doing\u2014I have a course that’s going to be offered. If you don’t want to be doing it alone, you can certainly do it with a group, which is helpful too. But my feeling is, everything is slow and gentle. These are the small steps that create sustainable change, which is what we’re talking about.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon: In terms of the grief work that you’ve helped people do, can you tell me more about that\u2014how to effectively do grief work around a father wound?<\/span><\/p>\n

Terri Cole: Sure. One of the exercises we do is called Mourning the Dream, where I walk you through, with prompts, things you’ll be writing. We really have to mourn the dream of the father we wish we’d had, before we get into what did and didn’t happen. It’s so important that we mourn what didn’t happen for us. So we do a lot of writing about the father we wished we’d had and didn’t.<\/span><\/p>\n

A lot of times people feel like this seems like a moot point\u2014”isn’t it just being a glutton for punishment?” Not really. What we’re speaking to is your little girl’s truest heart’s desire, and she has every right to be very disappointed, and every right to have her disappointment witnessed compassionately, which is what we’re doing.<\/span><\/p>\n

So mourning how you wished it was creates more room. I had a therapist, Bev\u2014the same one I always write about, because I had her for years\u2014and she said something really helpful when we were really diving into this work. I was crying about my father, crying about, “Why couldn’t he just have wanted daughters? Why couldn’t\u2014” I so desperately wanted the type of father who would be a “girl dad,” you know\u2014obviously there wasn’t a hashtag for it back then, but you know what I mean. I wanted to be a daddy’s-little-girl type of girl, and he was not that type of father. And she said, “Terri, if you continue to want him to be a completely different person, you’re basically smashing your head against a stone wall. He’s not changing. But is there any way you could identify some ways that he was capable of loving you? And do you think you could feel loved by those things?” And I said, “I literally have no idea, but I’ll try.”<\/span><\/p>\n

So I came in the next week, and she said, “Okay, what did you come up with?” And I said, “He paid for my undergraduate school. He bought me a used car. He fixed my teeth. He started an IRA for me. And he would say, ‘Strap in,’ when I pulled away from his apartment or his house.” Those were the five things. And she said, “Can you feel loved by them?” And I thought, if I try, I think I probably could\u2014or I could feel considered. He thought about us, he thought about me. So that made a difference. But before I could do that, I needed to be sad about not having the father I wished I’d had. I’d had friends who had these warm, funny, fun dads.<\/span><\/p>\n

I remember being shocked in fourth grade, going to my friend’s house, and her dad came home while we were there, and I thought, “I’m getting the hell out of here immediately.” I was literally nine, putting on my sneakers, hopping down the steps to run out of her house. She said, “Where are you going?” And I said, “Your father’s here, we should skedaddle.” And she said, “No.” And I said, “Well, I’m out of here,” because I was scared of everyone’s father. Then I bumped into him on the way out, and he said, “Terri, where are you going?” I said, “Nowhere, home.” And he said, “Please stay for dinner.” I thought, “Oh my God, please no,” but I didn’t know how to say no, so I said, “Okay.” And I’m sitting with this Italian family, and the dad is asking everyone about their day, everyone’s laughing and joking, and I was in shock\u2014I couldn’t believe that somebody could have a fun, non-scary father. I was nine, the first time I saw a man who was a father not be scary.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon: You mentioned that, in doing the Mourning the Dream We Didn’t Have, you have a chance to witness your own little girl, with the emptiness of the father figure she wanted. And you say an interesting thing\u2014that you’re interested in teaching people self-parenting, not re-parenting. Tell me why you make that distinction.<\/span><\/p>\n

Terri Cole: Well, because you’re not re-doing anything, really. It’s self-parenting. I’m not redoing\u2014maybe it’s just semantics, but for me, there’s something powerful and important about us deciding that we will give to our little selves what our fathers couldn’t. We will learn to protect ourselves. We will be compassionate. We will turn down that inner critic. We will make choices that are good for her, not just pleasing other people.<\/span><\/p>\n

And coming from that point of view, what does it look like to self-parent? To ask, “Is this the best thing for me\u2014to work late again, eat dinner at my desk again? If I were my own daughter, is this what I would want for her?” And the answer is no. So then we make a choice not to do that. I think we need to learn how to prioritize ourselves, and often father-wounded daughters don’t know how. We don’t think we can. We don’t think we should. We don’t think we deserve it, because our value is in pleasing others, often, or in taking one for the team a lot\u2014and that makes a life where eventually you become bitter.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon: You call me “Tam,” and every single time you do it, something in me smiles, because that name feels like the name of a small me\u2014someone, an adult in my family, would have called me. What it brings up for me is, I wonder how you relate now, in a self-parenting way, to the little person inside you, the little girl. Even as I ask the question, I notice I feel a little embarrassed about it\u2014like, “Really, you’re gonna be talking about the inner child with Terri Cole again, Tam?” But I want to know: what is your ongoing relationship with little Terri?<\/span><\/p>\n

Terri Cole: It’s great. She is always in my mind. And keep in mind, Tam, I would be honest and say that before I became a psychotherapist, I absolutely thought inner child work was total nonsense. I was like, “Okay, thanks, John Bradshaw.” Then I became a therapist, and it was absolutely undeniable how important what happens to us at different phases of development is. You can think of it like\u2014a lot of times, it’s peak experiences that we get stuck at. It could be five years old, seven years old, ten years old. But that is still little us, do you know what I mean? That is still the child within us that needs our attention.<\/span><\/p>\n

So I don’t force myself to make fast decisions anymore. I don’t rush around. I check in with how I feel, and how she feels. And now that I’ve done so much inner child work, we are sort of one. So it’s less about checking in with my little self specifically\u2014sometimes I do\u2014but often I’ve created so much self-consideration, which is what I call it, as opposed to self-love.<\/span><\/p>\n

People talk about, “Well, if you could just love yourself more”\u2014what does that even mean, in real life, action-wise? But I know what self-consideration means, and that’s the thing most of us are missing. I will consider you, especially if I’m actively wounded, long before I will consider me.<\/span><\/p>\n

And when we start to come from a place of self-consideration and self-protection, in a real way, we’re so much less mad at everyone else, because we can count on ourselves. I do what I want in this life now, and that wasn’t always the case. But when you get on the other side of healing this father wound, what’s there for you is liberation. It’s freedom from the compulsion in these relationships, freedom from this unconscious behavior that is not optimal for our health, for our relationships, for how we feel. Real freedom is expansion\u2014you take your time. Somebody wants an answer from me, and they say, “You need to tell me by three o’clock.” I go, “Oh, by three today? Well, then it’s definitely a no,” because that’s not how I make decisions. If it’s next Wednesday\u2014<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon: That really landed on me: “I do what I want.” I’m going to have to really reflect on that. That’s very powerful, Terri. In the beginning of our conversation, I want to circle back\u2014you talked about how, in the culture, we all share the father wound that comes from patriarchy. And one of the ways you describe the father wound, in brief\u2014let me just tell you the bottom line\u2014you call it a worthiness wound.<\/span><\/p>\n

Terri Cole: Mhm.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon: I’m thinking everybody I know, man and woman, has some level of, or has healed, a worthiness wound. We’re all subject to that\u2014that we have to earn our worth in the culture we’re part of, the “perform, earn,” et cetera, performance culture. So what do you see as the shift needed to heal the father wound at a collective, societal level? What would be required?<\/span><\/p>\n

Terri Cole: Well, it’s happening, because we’re finally pissed. A lot, a lot of women are really, really sick of this. So what is the shift? We have to vote in more women. We need women in positions of power. Listen, men have been doing it for millennia\u2014so far, it’s not that great.<\/span><\/p>\n

So my feeling is, it’s, A, naming what is wrong in society, and look at the headlines\u2014I don’t need to mention any of them, you know exactly what’s going on. But now we’re talking about it. Now we’re not being silent about it. Now we’re not letting it be swept under the rug. What happened at Cornell, what’s happening at LSU, what’s happening at all these other institutions in the US\u2014that’s just one tip of the iceberg that the last ten years, politically, has shone a light on. Either we need to get activated\u2014and now there’s enough women. Look at what’s happening with menopause and menopause care, look at the change that’s happened in the last ten years, because now you have enough female doctors who are changing protocol, who are going to Congress, who are getting the black box changed.<\/span><\/p>\n

What’s required is a more equitable distribution of power between men and women. Men are still at the top of every single thing that makes decisions about women’s bodies and women’s lives, but that’s changing. The thing is, if we don’t heal our personal father wounds, those father wounds create a glass ceiling of our own making, when it comes to our jobs, our careers, our relationships. There’s a limitation if we never really break out of the internalized limiting beliefs about our worth. Because think about it\u2014if the person who’s supposed to value you the most in the world\u2014really, fathers and mothers, but in this case, fathers and daughters especially\u2014if they didn’t, or didn’t think you were worth protecting, or didn’t think about protecting you\u2014it doesn’t even have to be malicious\u2014what does that tell you about your worth? How likely are you to be able to say, “I do what I want”? No\u2014”I do what’s expected. I do what will keep the peace. I do what will not rock the boat. I do what will please others.” That is what we are changing, because that does not create the world that we need.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon: Just to emphasize this point: in the book Father Wound, the work we do is very personal, but then at the end, you say, “Welcome to the revolution.” And I thought, “Terri’s up to something here”\u2014the personal healing work we’re doing. And I want to end on that note\u2014the larger agenda you’re carrying.<\/span><\/p>\n

Terri Cole: Well, listen, we’ve been\u2014as women, we have been treated not equally, and not well, since the beginning of time, and I’m on a mission to have that be different for our future, for our kids. But it’s us. Literally, we are the ones we’ve been waiting for. It is us. We will be the ones. And so, yes, I am motivating people, I am inspiring women to want and then demand more for themselves, but to just get healthy within yourself\u2014realizing what you think, how you feel, and what you want matters, and it has to matter to you more than what anyone else wants, thinks, or feels.<\/span><\/p>\n

And most women are not taught that. We’re taught that if we think that, we’re selfish, we’re self-absorbed, we’re not good mothers, we’re not very feminine. And I will just say that’s nonsense, because you have to know\u2014you have to live your life knowing that how you feel, what you think, and what you want matters, and it needs to be the most important thing to you. Which doesn’t mean we don’t compromise\u2014you’ve got kids, you know this, you’ve got a family, you know this. But we have to start from that place, that we can count on ourselves to do the right thing for us, to not work ourselves to death, to not do all the emotional labor, to not go through life burnt out, and then, before you know it, you’re seventy, and you’re like, “Wow, is this all there is? Because this sucks”\u2014if you’ve built your life on boxes other people dictated.<\/span><\/p>\n

What I’m inspiring women to do is to build lives that they love, based on their passion, their skills, their brains, their hearts, and what they want to do. Having what you want be the guiding force in your life.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon: I’ve been talking to Terri Cole, Sounds True’s very own Boundary Boss, who has a new book. It’s called Father Wound: Break Unhealthy Patterns to Reclaim Your Worth and Power. Thank you always, Terri, for, as you say, talking true. Thank you.<\/span><\/p>\n

Terri Cole: Thanks for having me, Tam.<\/span><\/p>\n

Tami Simon: Thank you for listening. I’d also like to invite you to join us on Sounds True One, where you can enjoy early, ad-free access to episodes of Insights at the Edge. Sounds True One is our premium membership platform. It’s built around live classes and online events, award-winning specials, intimate learning experiences, and Q&A sessions with the world’s leading wisdom teachers. You can get your first month free at join.soundstrue.com.<\/span><\/p>\n

The Sounds True Podcast Network.<\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"template":"","meta":{"_expiration-date-status":"","_expiration-date":0,"_expiration-date-type":"","_expiration-date-categories":[],"_expiration-date-options":[]},"class_list":["post-27960","transcript","type-transcript","status-publish","hentry"],"yoast_head":"\nTerri Cole: \u201cHealing the Worthiness Wound\u201d | Sounds True<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"noindex, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Terri Cole: \u201cHealing the Worthiness Wound\u201d | Sounds True\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Terri Cole: You can absolutely love your father and still have a father wound. You can do this work if your father’s alive. 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