{"id":7870,"date":"2020-08-20T19:48:17","date_gmt":"2020-08-20T19:48:17","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.resources2.soundstrue.com\/?post_type=transcript&p=7870"},"modified":"2020-08-20T19:48:17","modified_gmt":"2020-08-20T19:48:17","slug":"brainspotting","status":"publish","type":"transcript","link":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/brainspotting\/","title":{"rendered":"Brainspotting"},"content":{"rendered":"
\"image_print\"Print Transcript<\/span><\/a><\/div>

Tami Simon:<\/strong> You\u2019re listening to Insights at the Edge.<\/em> Today I speak with Dr. David Grand. David Grand is a psychotherapist, a writer, a lecturer, a performance coach, and a humanitarian famous for the discovery and development of the internationally acclaimed Brainspotting method. He\u2019s the author of the ground-breaking book Emotional Healing at Warp Speed,<\/em> and has been interviewed on CNN, NBC, and Nightline<\/em> for his enormous success in healing victims of trauma. With Sounds True, David is just releasing a new book on Brainspotting: The Revolutionary New Therapy for Rapid and Effective Change.<\/em><\/p>\n

In this episode of Insights at the Edge,<\/em> David Grand and I spoke about just what Brainspotting is. We talked about a simple self-Brainspotting exercise that you can try right now. David explained one of the core principles of Brainspotting; that where you look affects how you feel, and he discussed a situation in which he was the client and received Brainspotting therapy. Finally, David talked about some of the future innovations of Brainspotting, and why he\u2019s so passionate about advancing the field of brain-based therapy. Here\u2019s my conversation with Dr. David Grand.<\/p>\n

Brainspotting is known as a brain-based therapy, and I wonder, to begin our conversation, David, if you could help our listeners understand this whole category of brain-based therapies.<\/p>\n

David Grand:<\/strong> When I was trained in the \u201970s and into the \u201980s, everything was put in the context of the mind. And I always used to wonder, \u201cWell, where is the mind?\u201d And way back then, I was thinking, \u201cWell, it\u2019s got to be in the brain.\u201d And the \u201990s became the decade of the brain, where we really got to understand many things about it that we hadn\u2019t before. And then from there, it started to filter its way into psychotherapy practice just as far as understanding what was happening during psychotherapy.<\/p>\n

But the evolution of brain-based therapy is a matter of not just understanding what may be happening in the client\u2019s brain during the therapy process, but really engaging them around it. In other words, educating the client as to their brain, even encouraging them to read books or go online. And as the process is going on, to really be talking about, \u201cWell, this is where it\u2019s happening in your brain, this is what\u2019s happening in the brain, and this would explain some of the symptoms you have or reactions you have.\u201d<\/p>\n

And what\u2019s really interesting is that people really like that. People really resonate with that. And it\u2019s like the brain understands itself. So when in the therapy process, and really in other forms of work that I do in the performance and creativity work, when you describe and educate and engage the brain of the person in front of you, you\u2019re able to really do a lot more, and have a process be more powerful and focused.<\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> So, pretend I\u2019m one of your clients, and I want to understand more about how my brain is working and how Brainspotting is going to work with my brain to help me. Can you educate me? Here I don\u2019t know very much about brain science\u2014where would you start?<\/p>\n

DG:<\/strong> Well, as far as Brainspotting goes, the watchword is: \u201cWhere you look affects how you feel.\u201d And specifically, when we think about something that has any meaning to us or activates us in any way, if we look to the left or the right as we think about it or feel the feelings, it actually feels different.<\/p>\n

Also, if we look up or down it feels different. It feels different\u2014usually on one side it\u2019s more intense and the other side it\u2019s less intense. One side, it\u2019s more right in our face; the other side, we have more perspective on it. And this is a matter of the field of vision being a reflection of our internal brain processes.<\/p>\n

So with Brainspotting, we literally use where a person looks to find where they\u2019re holding their traumas, where they\u2019re holding their symptoms, their negative beliefs about themselves, or anything of that nature. And once we find it, we hold it in place and we have the person just stare\u2014we usually use a pointer\u2014stare at the tip of the pointer and just be mindfully aware of what goes on inside of them, especially attuning to what they\u2019re feeling in their bodies, because the body is a reflection of what\u2019s going on in the brain. I like to say what\u2019s in the brain is in the body, and what\u2019s in the body\u2019s in the brain.<\/p>\n

In addition, as far as the more specific brain-based approach, what I explain to people is that we have different levels of consciousness, which we all know, but that the consciousness of the left prefrontal cortex\u2014which is the left part of the brain in the front where most of the thinking and reasoning goes on, and most of our conscious awareness goes on\u2014it feels like just who we are. And the rest of our brain is not even there or it\u2019s something or somebody else\u2014just like we don\u2019t attune, necessarily, to our bodies as being ourselves.<\/p>\n

But what I like to do is to educate people that with Brainspotting, we\u2019re bypassing this conscious thinking part of the brain, that left prefrontal part of the brain, and we\u2019re able to access the right brain, which is the more intuitive body-based brain, and access the midbrain, which is known as the limbic brain or the mammalian brain. That\u2019s where the fight-flight-alarm system goes on. And even, in some ways, access all the way back to the hindbrain, which is also known as the reptilian brain.<\/p>\n

So in doing this with Brainspotting, we do it but we educate the person as far as what\u2019s actually happening in their brain. One of the things that happens in Brainspotting is what we call processing, and I call it focused mindfulness, which is when a person is\u2014let\u2019s say a person is thinking about a trauma from when they\u2019re five, and we found that spot and it\u2019s to their right and up. And they\u2019re looking at that spot and they\u2019re aware that it feels like there\u2019s a weight on their chest.<\/p>\n

The processing that goes on, the focused mindfulness, is the uncritical tracking of a person\u2019s internal process, and oftentimes it\u2019s thoughts or feelings or memories. But it can jump around, it can go to things that seem totally unrelated. And people oftentimes feel like, \u201cOh, I\u2019m not doing this right,\u201d or, \u201cWhat\u2019s happening? I\u2019m confused.\u201d<\/p>\n

What I explain to people is that in this focused mindfulness process, on the spot, that the person\u2019s conscious thinking brain is observing the deeper unconscious brain. It\u2019s observing the workings of that deeper part of the brain. And that literally they\u2019re traveling down the neural pathways that are unpredictable and kind of mysterious to our conscious selves. But by doing it, we\u2019re actually watching the brain process the experience and watching the brain healing itself.<\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> Now, David, help me understand this for a moment. You\u2019re talking about, here, I come in, I\u2019m a client, and I have some kind of past trauma, and that by helping me look at a certain spot\u2014so in the visual field, you are helping me identify a certain spot\u2014that there\u2019s a relationship between me looking at that spot and the trauma that\u2019s been held in my body and brain? I\u2019m not quite clear on that, what the relationship [is] between the visual place that I\u2019m looking at and the trauma experience being held in the body and brain.<\/p>\n

DG:<\/strong> Let me start by just talking a little bit about trauma, and then I can give you a better reflection on that. The brain is a processing machine. It\u2019s made to process infinite experiences that we have all the time. Traumatic experiences, especially in childhood, overwhelm the processing mechanism, which means that parts of the traumatic experience go unprocessed or frozen in different parts of the brain.<\/p>\n

Robert Scaer, who\u2019s a great expert on these things, has come up with a concept of \u201ctrauma capsules.\u201d I like to say it\u2019s almost like time capsules because they\u2019re left frozen in time and space in different places in the brain. It\u2019s not exactly as literal as this, but on a functional basis, this is how it works. So there are trauma capsules of frozen traumatic experiences that are left unprocessed, unresolved in the brain.<\/p>\n

Now, if a person is talking about when their father left and didn\u2019t come back when they were five years old, and it\u2019s marked the person\u2019s life, that information is held in certain trauma capsules in the person\u2019s brain. When I have the person bring up the memory, [I] ask, \u201cHow activating is it, zero to 10?\u201d Let\u2019s say it\u2019s a seven.<\/p>\n

Slowly, we go to different places in the person\u2019s visual field, and I\u2019m asking them, \u201cWhere do you feel it the most? Where is it the most activating?\u201d And again, let\u2019s say, in this case, it\u2019s to the right and down. Literally, when you bring the pointer there, the person will just feel it\u2014it\u2019s almost like a charge\u2014and feel it with great specificity. And by doing so, that spot that they\u2019re looking at, to the right and down, reveals and correlates to a trauma capsule or a number of trauma capsules that are held in the person\u2019s brain.<\/p>\n

When the person continues to look at that pointer, what\u2019s happening is that the brain maintains its focus on that trauma capsule, and all the attention and processing that\u2019s happening is not going on throughout the entire brain. It\u2019s going out to that encapsulated region of the brain, which then has a chance to process through that experience in a way that it didn\u2019t the first time around.<\/p>\n

Literally, it can release that trauma capsule and just have it become a normal, integrated part of the brain, and go from being a trauma to being a memory\u2014go from being something that has a charge and it feels like it\u2019s happening in the moment to, \u201cWell, it happened to me but it\u2019s in the past, and I survived it and I moved on.\u201d<\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> So normally these trauma capsules are hidden from our awareness, but there\u2019s something that happens in the Brainspotting process, using this technique that reveals the capsule? How does that work?<\/p>\n

DG:<\/strong> Well, people oftentimes have the erroneous notion that when they\u2019ve been traumatized, that they\u2019ll never get over it. One of the classic things you say [about] an image or a sound [is], \u201cI\u2019m going to have to see it or hear it or feel it the rest of my life.\u201d What they\u2019re really doing is just relating to that frozen information in the trauma capsule. And if a person goes for talk therapy, it\u2019s going in through the conscious, language areas of the brain that don\u2019t really get to where those trauma capsules are.<\/p>\n

When we explore a person\u2019s visual field and we find [where] that hot spot, or brainspot, is, it allows their brain to find it, which they haven\u2019t been able to do before. And it allows the brain to figure it out through processing it the way that it was really meant to happen if it didn\u2019t overwhelm that person, especially at that young stage in their life.<\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> Now, is there any way that someone listening to this right now could do some type of experiment with their visual field so they could get even just a little sense of what you\u2019re talking about?<\/p>\n

DG:<\/strong> well, the first thing I\u2019ll say is that human beings are Brainspotting all the time; we just don\u2019t know it. And ironically, people even in a psychotherapy session are Brainspotting, it\u2019s just the therapist doesn\u2019t notice it. What I mean by that is that we are looking in different directions, at different points, when we\u2019re thinking about things or talking about things. In Brainspotting, we call it a Gaze Spot.<\/p>\n

So if a client sits in front of me and she\u2019s talking about something that just overwhelms her and just bothers her every day, and meanwhile she\u2019s just looking right at one spot on the floor\u2014she\u2019s just staring at it, almost burning a hole in the floor\u2014what\u2019s happening at that moment is she is revealing to me that there\u2019s something there, right in that spot in her visual field.<\/p>\n

Just going backwards a couple of steps\u2014when I say we\u2019re doing it all the time, if you start thinking about something and then you realize you\u2019re looking at a spot on the wall and there\u2019s no reason for you to look at it, you\u2019re naturally, intuitively, Brainspotting. When you do that, all you have to do is just keep looking at that spot\u2014once you\u2019ve discovered, consciously, that you\u2019re doing it\u2014and watch wherever your internal process goes. It\u2019s almost always a fruitful, revealing internal experience.<\/p>\n

But even more specifically than that\u2014just to try this out\u2014anybody who\u2019s listening can think about something that\u2019s bothering them. We don\u2019t want them to take a major life trauma that they\u2019re carrying that overwhelms them, if there is such a thing. Just something that\u2019s bothering them that day, and look to the right. Which means just find something\u2014it could be a lamp or a doorknob or something\u2014and look at that and think about the thing that\u2019s bothering them, and notice how they feel it in their body. And then, after doing that for 10 seconds, just look at something to the left, and just fixate on that and think about what\u2019s bothering them.<\/p>\n

And just notice the difference between what it feels like looking to the right or looking to the left. The best way to gauge it is what you feel in your body, whether you feel an activation in your body in your chest, your back, your head or something, or whether you feel more of a release or calm in your body.<\/p>\n

By doing this experiment\u2014people could be doing it right now as we\u2019re talking\u2014that spot where you feel it the most, if it\u2019s more to the right or more to the left, that\u2019s a Brainspot. That reveals where something is being held in your brain that\u2019s feeding this thing that\u2019s bothering you.<\/p>\n

And the way to experiment with that one step farther is to just keep on looking at that spot, and just like you do when you meditate, just with mindfulness, notice where your thinking goes, step by step by step. But it\u2019s really important to not judge it, to not put expectations on it, to not be critical of it. If your mind jumps around all over the place, it\u2019s natural. If you start thinking about things that seem unrelated or just a shopping list, it\u2019s all brain process.<\/p>\n

So you just stay with it. If you stay with it for a minute, three minutes, five minutes, and watch where it goes, and then reflect back on what was bothering you, you\u2019ll generally see that there\u2019s been a shift\u2014maybe a very slight, subtle shift or maybe a more noticeable shift\u2014in just how it feels to you. That\u2019s a mini-self-Brainspotting experience.<\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> And when you say look for the spot in the visual field\u2014either left or right or scanning from left to right\u2014where you feel it the most, what do you mean \u201cfeel it the most\u201d? I might feel peaceful or I might feel quite agitated? What am I looking for?<\/p>\n

DG:<\/strong> Well, for a basic self-experiment, or just to know what it feels like, we\u2019re generally looking for where you feel it the most.<\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> Where I feel the most inner disruption?<\/p>\n

DG:<\/strong> I use the term \u201cactivation\u201d because activation\u2019s sort of a catch-all term. If we say \u201cdisturbance,\u201d it means one thing to one person, one thing to another. Activation just really means where your brain and body feels activated\u2014where you feel something.<\/p>\n

We use a rating scale from zero to 10, and this can be helpful in that self-exercise. It comes from Joseph Wolpe, who was a famous behaviorist, where zero means where you don\u2019t feel anything, where it\u2019s totally neutral. Ten means where you feel it the absolute most. And whatever number in between, it gives a number to it.<\/p>\n

So a way to simply judge where you feel it the most is to judge the activation of the issue of whatever you\u2019re feeling emotionally, bodily. When you look to the left, you might look to the left and say, \u201cOh, it\u2019s a five over there.\u201d Then you look to the right and it jumps up to an eight. Numerically is a good way to quickly identify the difference of where you feel it more and where you feel it less.<\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> Now, I\u2019m curious about something you said about how we\u2019re Brainspotting all the time, because one of the things I\u2019ve noticed is that I\u2019ll often find myself staring off into space in a certain direction, to the point where my partner might say to me, \u201cYou\u2019re staring at that person,\u201d and I\u2019m like, \u201cI\u2019m not even looking at them. I\u2019m just staring.\u201d But I\u2019m not necessarily activated in that moment. I\u2019m in some kind of dreamy state. What\u2019s going on then? Does that have anything to do with Brainspotting?<\/p>\n

DG:<\/strong> Oh, absolutely. In a psychotherapy office, people bring in what\u2019s bothering them. So generally speaking, something that bothers you is something that, when it happens or you think about it, it makes you feel uncomfortable. I like to use the technical term \u201clousy.\u201d It just makes you feel lousy. But the field of vision reveals all kinds of different things in different spots.<\/p>\n

I work with people who are in [the field of] creativity, and we find the creativity spot where they feel the most creative. We can also work with people from what we call a resource model, which is to find the spot where a person feels the calmest and most grounded.<\/p>\n

What you\u2019re talking about, where you\u2019re staring off into space, it is not random by any means. What\u2019s really happening is that something about that spot is allowing you to stare into inner space. There\u2019s something on a deep basis there that you\u2019re pondering that you may not even have an awareness of. And if you feel like you\u2019re just kind of floaty or drifty or not even knowing what you\u2019re thinking about, it\u2019s because you\u2019re in the right brain or you\u2019re in the midbrain or the high brain that doesn\u2019t have thought and doesn\u2019t have language. It just has an intuitive sense of things.<\/p>\n

So the visual field is loaded with meaningful eye positions, and they don\u2019t all correlate to negative things. They can correlate to neutral things, or to things of interest, or things where we feel introspective. Our visual field reveals our internal field, which is the brain.<\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> I think the part about all of this that still feels quite mysterious to me is understanding how the position of my eyes or whatever it is I\u2019m looking at is relating to brain activity, the relationship between those two things. I\u2019m still not clear about that.<\/p>\n

DG:<\/strong> Well, in simple terms, with the most rudimentary understanding of the brain and brain activity, it stands to reason that if you\u2019re look off to your right or looking to the left, your brain is not going to be exactly the same looking at two different positions, especially ones that are distinctly apart.<\/p>\n

The brain is always active; it\u2019s always searching in different ways. So literally, your brain\u2014if you do a brain scan of somebody look to the right or to the left, it\u2019s not going to look exactly the same. The shift in eye position correlates to a shift of brain activity.<\/p>\n

But this is not just because we\u2019re human beings. Part of this is being members of the animal kingdom. If you look at animals and watch how they scan, what they\u2019re really doing is orienting to their environment. And orienting to one\u2019s environment\u2014the main way that humans do it is through sight, and for most animals, sight is an important part of it.<\/p>\n

So we\u2019re wired to orient\u2014to the left, to the right, up, down, in front of us, even behind us. So being able to orient to our environment externally, which is really tapping into orienting to our internal environment, is just part of being in the animal kingdom. Usually in orienting, we\u2019re orienting for two things: either for danger, which shows us that there\u2019s a tiger coming from our left or a car, a taxi\u2014speaking from Manhattan, a taxi coming at us from the left; or we\u2019re orienting towards safety or nurturing, such as food or other people that we\u2019re associated to.<\/p>\n

So we\u2019re wired to orient to our visual field and to our entire environment. That\u2019s one of the reasons why where we look reveals so much of how we feel and what\u2019s going on inside of us.<\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> Now, David, it\u2019s fair to say that you \u201cdiscovered\u201d Brainspotting, and that you discovered it at a certain point in your career in 2003. And I wonder if you can tell us about that. How is it that you discovered [what] seems like quite an important breakthrough, and has this discovery been confirmed by other people, other researchers, other practitioners?<\/p>\n

DG:<\/strong> I discovered Brainspotting\u2014and I didn\u2019t really discover anything. Looking in different directions has been used with other techniques: NLP, hypnosis, and so on. But also where we look has been used by archaic healers and shamans, so I didn\u2019t really discover anything. I just sort of stumbled upon something that was there right in front of my face and recognized that there was something to it that I could utilize.<\/p>\n

I was doing a version of EMDR, which is Eye Movement Desensitization Reprocessing. When I say my own version, I was doing very slow eye movements with a woman was an ice skater. And we were trying to break through this last thing that she hadn\u2019t broken through, which was a jump called a triple loop that she needed to do for either a short or a long program. And everything else had been cleared through with the prior work, and she was just stuck on that.<\/p>\n

And as I went across her visual field, just before we got to the bridge of her nose, her eye went into this dramatic wobble, and then just locked into place. When that happened, it felt like a hand grabbed my wrist and locked my finger in place so that I just held it right in front of where that wobble and freeze was. And for the next ten minutes, a torrent of information and processing experience came out. She became very emotional at different points and releasing in other points. It was trauma after trauma after trauma that was coming out.<\/p>\n

What was fascinating was too things: The first was that these were new traumas that hadn\u2019t come out, and some of them were on the skating rink and injuries. Some of them were family stuff with her parents fighting. But a lot of these were new traumas that never came out in the process that I had done with her for that year of treatment.<\/p>\n

But the second thing was that a lot of things that I thought we had resolved reopened and processed through to a deeper level. The next morning she called me from the practice rink. She was very excited. She said, \u201cDavid, David, I just did a triple loop with no problem!\u201d And she never had a problem with it again after that.<\/p>\n

What happened for me, at that point\u2014I mean, it was really dramatic, so I wondered if there was something there that might have application to other clients. So in doing these slow eye movements, I started to look for these eye glitches, eye wobbles, eye anomalies, and any time I saw one, I stopped right there and just told the person, \u201cKeep on looking at my finger and watch what happens.\u201d<\/p>\n

And they started to go into, in almost every case, a deeper, more focused kind of processing than they were in before with the work I was doing. And the work I was doing was very effective and powerful, so for me, this really grabbed my attention that this was a breakthrough to another level.<\/p>\n

During the course of the last 10 years, on my own and [with] others who have studied with me, we\u2019ve discovered many different ways of observing and harnessing a client\u2019s visual field to see where different experiences can really be focused or brought out or released, including positive experiences as well.<\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> Now, let\u2019s go to this story of the ice skater and the triple loop. So she came to you, you had been working on this for awhile, and then this one day she kept her vision in one position for 10 minutes. New stories came forward that she saw in front of her, she was engaged in this focused mindfulness, as you called it. And the next day, she had this breakthrough on the rink. So what happened? What happened during those 10 minutes that then allowed her to have a breakthrough the next day?<\/p>\n

DG:<\/strong> Well, I can only speculate, but we are looking into this more and more through research. And I\u2019m not a brain researcher, so some of this even goes beyond my expertise. But there must have been some capsule\u2014I call it a trauma capsule\u2014that either we couldn\u2019t find or the encapsulation was too great that somehow, with all the work and all the focus and all the eye movements and everything, it just never revealed itself.<\/p>\n

And something about the information that was in that trauma capsule held the block for her about doing the triple loop\u2014and it\u2019s really very hard or impossible to say exactly what it was. And there was nothing conscious about it. It was a reflexive as a knee jerk when you tap the knee. At that moment, when I hit that spot and her eye started to wobble like that, it was something that her reflexive system was experiencing and saying to me, \u201cDavid, there\u2019s something right here in this spot.\u201d<\/p>\n

But there was no thought, to words. It was just a reflexive response. And the fact that somehow I stopped there\u2014and I felt it intuitively in my reflexive self also, probably\u2014helped whatever it was to just really hold it in place and have her brain really just focus in on that trauma capsule and really open up what was inside of it. And all the traumas that came out had been frozen and held secretly in that compartment in her brain.<\/p>\n

But once [they] had been processed and released, she was able to really come back into time, into place, to not be stuck when she was five or three or 12, but really be in the moment and do what all of her training and all of her practice was meant to allow her to do, which was to do an unfettered movement that, for most of us, would be an impossibility, but for a championship skater is actually not such a big deal. So it translated from locating through that eye position to liberating through the processing to the actual change in behavior and the liberation of her movement.<\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> I guess part of my question is this idea of the liberation that comes through the processing. What\u2019s your understanding of, when this material is released from the capsule, how is it that just the release of the material then frees us in some way?<\/p>\n

DG:<\/strong> Well, if we take it just as a single event trauma\u2014let\u2019s say a car accident, and a person was driving a car and was broadsided on the right by someone who ran a light. And [in] some place in that person\u2019s brain [this notion] was frozen, because, again, the traumatic experience was still frozen in the person\u2019s brain.<\/p>\n

And part of that person, that little piece of their brain, was left behind in that traumatic event feeling like, \u201cIt\u2019s just going to happen. It is happening. It\u2019s just happened.\u201d That\u2019s what it means for something to be frozen in a person\u2019s brain. That part of the brain is still in the experience. The brain didn\u2019t process it through. It never got past it.<\/p>\n

So literally, every time that person approaches an intersection, they\u2019re afraid of getting into an accident. But what\u2019s typical of trauma is the person\u2019s not afraid of being hit on the left; they\u2019re not afraid of being rear-ended. They\u2019re afraid of being hit on that same spot to the right, because it\u2019s frozen in the brain. The experience and the fear it\u2019s going to happen again is frozen in the brain.<\/p>\n

We find the Brainspot for the person. What it does is it finds that frozen capsule of information where that person\u2019s brain is still stuck in the trauma. And when they start to process it\u2014and literally, they\u2019ll go through it looking on that spot. They\u2019ll go through it step by step by step. They\u2019ll feel it. They\u2019ll feel the impact. They\u2019ll feel the sounds and so on. But they\u2019ll get past it. They\u2019ll get to the point where afterwards they found out, yes, their car was destroyed, but they were OK. Or maybe they broke their arm, but they weren\u2019t killed as they were afraid they were going to.<\/p>\n

And then they continue to process. The brain continues to go through, historically [what\u2019s known as] the recovery. As that happens, as they\u2019re still looking on that spot and they go back to the accident, instead of being right in it or feeling that charge or the impact, they start to feel like, \u201cIt\u2019s OK. It\u2019s further away. It\u2019s distant. It\u2019s in the past. I can go on with my life.\u201d In other words, that part of the brain has now had a chance to come out of that frozen, stuck position and process through the experience like the rest of the brain did.<\/p>\n

And now the person goes to drive to that intersection, and they probably don\u2019t even think about that they\u2019re going to be in an accident or broadsided on the right, because that part of the brain is not thinking about it anymore. It\u2019s more thinking about what they have to be doing.<\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> Now, I\u2019m curious, David, if you yourself have received Brainspotting therapy to work out any issues, and if so, how that went for you.<\/p>\n

DG:<\/strong> With a few circumstances, yes, I did. And the funniest thing is that when I was in the recipient position, the client position, I went into it just like anybody else would, even though I discovered it and I developed it and it\u2019s my thing. And I started to just do what everybody else does because it\u2019s so intuitive. It seems like it\u2019s happening on its own.<\/p>\n

And my thought after doing a session over something that was really bothering me [with] a colleague of mine who was really a top therapist [who] did the Brainspotting with me was, \u201cHey, this stuff really works!\u201d [Laughs<\/em>] But it wasn\u2019t coming like, \u201cI know it works,\u201d because I\u2019ve done it with thousands of people, but I knew it worked because of what happened inside of myself.<\/p>\n

As much my conscious brain knows all the stuff it does about Brainspotting, that left prefrontal area of my brain, the rest of my brain is as mysterious and unknown and vulnerable as anybody else\u2019s. So I got to experience it just\u2014<\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> It might be too personal to share, but would you be willing to share with us what you were working on and what happened for you during the Brainspotting process?<\/p>\n

DG:<\/strong> Well, it had to do with an unresolved trauma for me where my son was in a bicycle accident, where he was hit and run over by a car. And interestingly enough, before Brainspotting, I had processed it with the EMDR I\u2019d received. And it had resolved most of it, maybe 90 percent of it.<\/p>\n

But there was still a piece I could never really get through, and it had to do with getting the news on the telephone. I was in my office and my wife called, and told me that my son was in the hospital. He\u2019s OK, he\u2019s going to survive, but then all this stuff [about] the burns and the bone breaks and all that kind of stuff. So I never was able to really work through the trauma of the telephone call and of my fear of bad news coming on the phone, especially when I\u2019m in the office. So that\u2019s really what I Brainspotted.<\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> And can you tell us what that process was like for you, on the receiving end? How you experienced it, what happened?<\/p>\n

DG:<\/strong> Well, what\u2019s interesting is that\u2014I have a saying: \u201cEvery trauma is a retraumatization.\u201d It brought back three prior times when I had gotten very bad news in the office on the telephone. So what really had happened, the reason it hadn\u2019t really processed through with the prior work I had done, is that we hadn\u2019t gotten to the traumas that were underneath it or underpinning it.<\/p>\n

One of them was when I had gotten the news 15 years earlier that my father was diagnosed with kidney cancer and that they had found a tumor that had metastasized and all that kind of stuff. But that was one of the things that had to do with being traumatized by getting bad news on the telephone in my office. So that came up and processed through. Not that the incident had no more meaning for me, but the telephone sort of became neutral for me as opposed to somehow dangerous.<\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> And do you have a sense that there\u2019s a certain number of sessions that are required? In your case, how many sessions did it take for the receiving bad news on the phone trauma to work through you?<\/p>\n

DG:<\/strong> That was one two-hour session.<\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> That\u2019s it?<\/p>\n

DG:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> That\u2019s pretty amazing.<\/p>\n

DG:<\/strong> But remember, I had done a lot of work on it before, so I want to be clear about that. But as far as what people bring into my office and the office of other Brainspotting therapists, I like to say, \u201cWhat you put in is what you get out.\u201d And some people are much more ambitious when they go for therapy and counseling, and some people are much more limited as far as what they want.<\/p>\n

So the amount of time it takes has to do with: a) how ambitious you are or how more limited your goals are; but b) whether it is a single event trauma or whether it\u2019s repeated traumas, whether it\u2019s traumas from childhood or traumas from adolescence or adulthood. Someone who\u2019s had a lot of early childhood trauma, it\u2019s really infiltrated throughout the brain, and it was the brain in its early development that was traumatized. So to really get fuller resolution, it can take many sessions, it can take 20 sessions, it can take a year of sessions.<\/p>\n

For other people and other issues, it can take one, two, five, 10 sessions. So it really varies. But you want to keep it in context. Whatever gets done in that one two-hour session or in those 50 one-hour sessions, if you contrast it to most other therapies, especially talk-based therapies, you are getting a universe of difference.<\/p>\n

So you may literally get in five sessions what you wouldn\u2019t get in a year of talk therapy, because you\u2019re not getting access to the deeper brain, to the intuitive brain, and to those trauma capsules or other experiences that are held in places in the brain that you just can\u2019t find your way to by talking and thinking.<\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> And have you encountered situations where Brainspotting just is not effective? Now, granted, it could be that a client just leaves after one or two sessions and so they don\u2019t have the stick-to-it-iveness that\u2019s required. But outside of that, are there other types of applications where Brainspotting just doesn\u2019t seem to work?<\/p>\n

DG:<\/strong> In general, no. And I\u2019m starting with the general. Basically, when people say, \u201cWell, who does Brainspotting work on?\u201d I say, \u201cPeople who have an active nervous system,\u201d which generally covers most of us. By the time you\u2019re flat-lining, no, Brainspotting\u2019s not going to work for you.<\/p>\n

The exceptions are if you have a major psychiatric illness: someone with schizophrenia [or] bipolar disorder that is not properly medicated or treated, or the person doesn\u2019t have enough of a support system. You don\u2019t want to use anything\u2014not just Brainspotting, but any approach\u2014that might destabilize them. That would be an example. Another example would be somebody who has an active addiction, and what they need is really what you do for an addiction, which is [a] program and a much more comprehensive kind of approach.<\/p>\n

With everything I\u2019ve talked about so far, Brainspotting has its place, but it\u2019s not going to be the primary mode of treatment. It\u2019s going to be more an adjunctive or helpful mode of treatment. Another aspect of this is that the therapist who works with the client, no matter how good they are at Brainspotting, has to have expertise in the condition that the client is bringing to them.<\/p>\n

So if a client is bringing in childhood sexual abuse, Brainspotting is very effective at getting to those traumas, but you have to know how to move in much more slowly and gradually, and work from a much more, what we call a resource position.<\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> What do you mean by that?<\/p>\n

DG:<\/strong> Well, first of all, Brainspotting is not just a technique. Brainspotting is a technique that\u2019s used in the context of an attuned, empathic relationship. Brainspotting does not replace, should not [and] cannot replace, a therapist really being there with a client, really listening, really tuning in and following them in a very open sort of way. So that needs to go on no matter what.<\/p>\n

But there still needs to be the expertise in what the client is bringing. And if a client is coming in for OCD or panic attacks, you have to be an expert in Brainspotting and OCD and panic disorder. If a client is bringing in complex PTSD trauma or what we call dissociative disorder, which is usually people who have different parts of themselves that tend to come out at different times, then you need to be an expert in that.<\/p>\n

Working in a more resource way means working with, instead of where you feel active in your body or vulnerable in your body, working where you feel calmer or grounded in your body. Brainspotting with that means finding the eye positions that go together with the calm, grounded experience of the body, which is the calm, grounded areas of the brain, and being able to work very supportively and incrementally, and making sure that you don\u2019t overwhelm or destabilize the client.<\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> Now, in your new book on Brainspotting, I thought one of the interesting sections was where you talked about how the client him or herself can actually find the Brainspot by working from the inside of their body\u2014not necessarily where the therapist is moving the pointer or their finger, but working from the inside. And I\u2019m wondering if you could explain that.<\/p>\n

DG:<\/strong> Let me give you an experience I had. I went for hernia surgery, and I was waiting in a room with six other people who were waiting for surgery. Surgery\u2019s not my favorite thing, you know. Beyond being sarcastic about it, I had a childhood phobia about being cut or getting injections or things like that.<\/p>\n

So what I did is as I was lying there in the bed, with an IV in\u2014which I\u2019m not too thrilled about either\u2014I look for the spot in that room where I felt the least afraid, the least activated, whatever it is. I saw that my feet were feeling calmer than the rest of my body, and I just scanned my environment and I found an outlet. It was to my right and down. And when I looked there, I didn\u2019t feel great, but I felt much less overwhelmed or afraid than in any other spot.<\/p>\n

It took them 90 minutes to bring me in for the surgery. For those 90 minutes, I was just looking at that spot, and I just felt like I was not overwhelmed, I wasn\u2019t starting to get into negative thoughts or fantasies. It just kept me present and it kept me to the calm place in my body, which actually started with my feet and slowly worked its way up my legs.<\/p>\n

The easiest way, and in the book the primary thing I talk about, are exercises using what we call the resource model. Again, that\u2019s going from the body resource or where we feel calm and grounded in the body to finding spots that match that up. So literally, it can be different for different people at different times. You just sort of scan your body and see where you feel the calmest and most grounded. Oftentimes it\u2019s the extremities, or the feet touching the ground, or your body touching the chair if you\u2019re sitting in a chair.<\/p>\n

And with that, you just kind of sit with that for a little bit and notice how it feels, and then you just scan to your left and scan to your right. And you see which direction seems to go along with that calm, grounded feeling of the chair supporting your body. And once you find it\u2014sometimes it\u2019s a region, sometimes it\u2019s a pinpoint\u2014you just look at that and watch where things go for you.<\/p>\n

You can do that just for meditation or wellness, but you can also do that to help you to process something that\u2019s bothering you. But the self-work is best done not focusing on where you feel it the most, but more where you feel the calmest and most grounded. Some people can do well on their own. They\u2019ll find a spot, they\u2019ll start with where they feel the tension in the body, the pressure in the body, and then look to the right or look to the left. And they notice exactly where they feel it the most, and [they] just look there and process it through.<\/p>\n

But again, in the book and just basically on my own, I recommend that people use more resource work for self-work. People who are meditators really know how to do this already, but even people who are meditators find that the meditation is enhanced when they work with a body resource and a resource Brainspot.<\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> I\u2019m curious what you think, now that you\u2019re bringing up meditation, about what happens when the eyes move up and back with your eyes being slightly shut. So you\u2019re not actually looking outside, but there\u2019s more of a sort of inner and upward looking happening in the eyes, if you know what I\u2019m talking about. I think this is something that certain meditators have found in their practice, that that can be a type of inner eye gaze that can be nourishing.<\/p>\n

DG:<\/strong> Well, I\u2019ll start with the fact that even with our eyes closed, we\u2019re usually looking in one direction or another. And when we think about something\u2014and I\u2019ve noticed this with my clients. Sometimes clients will close their eyes. And I started to watch, and I could literally see that their eyes were directing more towards the right or left or up or down. So even with the eyes closed, we\u2019re still looking in certain directions.<\/p>\n

So literally, in terms of your question, although most people would tend to look up, some people would look more up to the left or the right. Some people actually go in the opposite and find themselves looking down, because everybody\u2019s wired a little bit differently. So you can incorporate this.<\/p>\n

Mindfulness has to do with awareness. So let\u2019s say if you\u2019re meditating and you are aware of where you\u2019re looking, you add that in. Where are you looking with your eyes closed? And just maintain your gaze in that direction, with your eyes closed. It can focus or enhance meditation.<\/p>\n

I want to add one more piece to this, which is really interesting. Eye position, in Brainspotting, is not just determined by where we\u2019re looking, just what we\u2019re seeing. It\u2019s also determined by the six eye muscles that hold each eye in place. These eye muscles are really incredible because the job that they have to do\u2014because we have two eyes\u2014of maintaining our focus. They are adjusting and micro-adjusting all the time, every time we move our eyes, even if we stay fixed on an object. So the six eye muscles for each eyeball are loaded with reflexes.<\/p>\n

So one of the things that we\u2019ve discovered is that it\u2019s not just what we\u2019re looking at visually, but it\u2019s the positioning of those eye muscles that [also] has to do with our orienting and also locating different things in our brain and within ourselves.<\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> Do you think it\u2019s fair to say that we\u2019re in the early days of Brainspotting, and that in the next couple of decades we\u2019re going to learn all kinds of things? And if that\u2019s so, what are the kinds of questions you\u2019re asking and the kinds of things you hope to learn in the decades to come?<\/p>\n

DG:<\/strong> You\u2019re absolutely right. We\u2019ve been at it for 10 years. We\u2019ve done a vast amount of work. There are Brainspotting therapists trained all over the world. So we\u2019ve come a tremendous ways in 10 years, but I know and the real experts in Brainspotting know that we\u2019ve just scratched the surface. We\u2019re really just at the beginning of this, and if you think that you really know what you\u2019re doing, you\u2019re kind of fooling yourself.<\/p>\n

When you really get into Brainspotting, you just want to look and understand more and more and more. I\u2019m discovering new things all the time, so my practice is changing and developing all the time, and it\u2019s part of what I bring into the trainings and teach other people.<\/p>\n

The very simple thing of technology is what can really take Brainspotting to another level, in two ways: one is the technology just of brain scanning, and of course\u2014I did a session with somebody in an fMRI scanner, really early just in terms of looking what goes on with that. But things like QEEG\u2014quantitative EEG brain scanning\u2014can be done.<\/p>\n

If we can get access to enough Brainspotting sessions done with QEEG on, and really watch the patterns, we can start to not just look by eye position, but we can start to read what\u2019s going on in the brain\u2014not just by what a person reports, but by what we see. We can start to really find different ways of getting with greater accuracy to whatever a person is holding in their brain and their body and help to process it out more.<\/p>\n

So that\u2019s one of the things. I\u2019m just giving one example because there\u2019s lots of ways of watching the brain and reading the body. Another thing is really [the] use of computer technology. We\u2019re still very low-tech. We have a pointer. It\u2019s like the old schoolteachers\u2019 pointer, the telescoping pointer. In front of the right screen or maybe even with the right goggles on, literally we can simulate for people not just left and right and up and down, but close and far and all kinds of different things and different colors and lights.<\/p>\n

So advances can be made using information we have already in other fields, or developing information just by what we observe and discover with Brainspotting. I can\u2019t imagine in 20 years just what we\u2019re going to be able to do with Brainspotting.<\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> Now, David, I think of you as a real pioneer, and also someone who is very focused and\u2014this would be my own language\u2014I would even say on a mission. And that\u2019s what it takes, often, to bring a type of revolutionary new therapeutic approach into the world. And I\u2019m always curious when someone has this kind of sense of mission or pioneering, torch-carrying quality about them, what\u2019s motivating them? So I\u2019d be curious to know a little bit more about what\u2019s motivating you in your work.<\/p>\n

DG:<\/strong> Well, some might think it\u2019s my desire to heal people, and certainly that\u2019s part of it. Again, from a humanitarian point of view, I have to tell you that the core of it is that I am incredibly curious about things, and I\u2019m always observing things.<\/p>\n

And as far back as I can remember\u2014I can remember some ways back to when I was two or three\u2014I was looking around me, Brainspotting, I guess, and just looking at that and saying, \u201cWhat is that? Why is that? I wonder why this is happening.\u201d I\u2019m just an incredibly curious person, and I\u2019m always interested in what makes things tick.<\/p>\n

When I was younger, I used to be very mechanical. I\u2019m still mechanical, but I\u2019d literally look at things\u2014motors or other mechanical things, electrical things\u2014and just look at it and I could figure out how the person or the people who developed it developed it, and how they made it work. That was always fascinating to me.<\/p>\n

As [therapists], we\u2019re working with the most infinite mechanism that\u2019s known in the universe, which is the brain, which has one quadrillion connections, which is one billion multiplied by one million, which, as far as we know, is close to infinite. With people in front of me, yes, I\u2019m there to help them and I\u2019m always looking to help them as much as possible, as fast as possible. But people are absolutely fascinating for who they are and how they are and why they are. You see some patterns that are universal, but you see so much that\u2019s absolutely unique.<\/p>\n

So a part of me is just like that two- or three-year-old\u2014is always curious and fascinated. How does this work? Why is this? What\u2019s making this happen? So more than anything else, that\u2019s what drives me, and I think it really comes as much from my creativity as it does from anything else.<\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> And then just one final question, David. I\u2019m curious what your hopes are for Brainspotting in the near future. What are you hoping might flower?<\/p>\n

DG:<\/strong> Brainspotting, to me, started as a psychotherapy, because I\u2019m a psychotherapist. And it started more in the realm of trauma therapy. But it goes to everything that has to do with what goes on in the human brain and the human being and the human spirit, which goes to creativity, performance, spirituality, personal growth and expansion. And [it] also just goes with things that have to do with the body, somatic things.<\/p>\n

So for me, being able to use the visual field to locate and help the human system to access its self-healing capacities, as well as it self-actualizing capacities, to me goes way beyond psychology and psychotherapy, and it really goes to all aspects of who we are and how we are, and how we can grow and change and develop.<\/p>\n

So really, I do a lot of work in sports performance and creativity and acting coaching and things like that. I know it has applications for business. Business is all based on the human brain and collective human brains. But science, learning\u2014you literally can learn more looking at certain things from certain positions than from other positions. When they say a person has a learning disability or learning block, well, if they\u2019re positioned in a certain place in the classroom, looking to that block position to the left, the kid\u2019s not going to learn as much as if he was seated in the right and looking off to his right where he has more access. So I\u2019m just going to education as well. Wherever human endeavor goes, and it entails orienting and orienting through a visual field, has potential application for Brainspotting.<\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> I\u2019ve been speaking with David Grand. And he is the discoverer of a technique called Brainspotting, and he\u2019s also written a new book published by Sounds True called Brainspotting: The Revolutionary New Therapy for Rapid and Effective Change.<\/em> David, thank you so much for being with us on Insights at the Edge.<\/em><\/p>\n

DG:<\/strong> Tami, it\u2019s been a pleasure.<\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> SoundsTrue.com. Many voices, one journey. Thanks for listening.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"template":"","meta":{"_expiration-date-status":"","_expiration-date":0,"_expiration-date-type":"","_expiration-date-categories":[],"_expiration-date-options":[]},"class_list":["post-7870","transcript","type-transcript","status-publish","hentry"],"yoast_head":"\nBrainspotting - Transcript | Sounds True<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Brainspotting. 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