{"id":8403,"date":"2020-10-20T23:30:30","date_gmt":"2020-10-20T23:30:30","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?post_type=transcript&p=8403"},"modified":"2020-10-20T23:30:30","modified_gmt":"2020-10-20T23:30:30","slug":"joanna-macy-we-belong-hope-choice-and-our-relationship-with-the-earth","status":"publish","type":"transcript","link":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/joanna-macy-we-belong-hope-choice-and-our-relationship-with-the-earth\/","title":{"rendered":"Joanna Macy: We Belong: Hope, Choice, and Our Relationship with the Earth"},"content":{"rendered":"
\"image_print\"Print Transcript<\/span><\/a><\/div>

Tami Simon: Joanna Macy, I want to begin by saying I feel very honored to have this chance to talk to you, so thank you so much for making the time. Thank you.<\/p>\n

Joanna Macy: Well, how wonderful to be in conversation right across the Rocky Mountains. I can picture you there. I\u2019m imagining you\u2019re in Boulder.<\/p>\n

TS: Yes, and you are?<\/p>\n

JM: In Berkeley, by the San Francisco Bay.<\/p>\n

TS: Wonderful. I had the chance recently, Joanna, to listen to a recording of a presentation you gave, and you sounded so vigorous, so vital, so engaged in the world. And I thought to myself, \u201cAt 88 years old, Joanna Macy is doing incredibly well, and is so engaged in life, and I\u2019d love to be that way when I\u2019m 88.\u201d So, my first question to you is: what do you think are the secrets, if you will, to your level of vitality and engagement?<\/p>\n

JM: [Laughs] Well, you know, what we all can draw from is a lot older and a lot younger. I\u2019d say four billion years. I often tell my friends, \u201cLet\u2019s act our age.\u201d Not whether it\u2019s 16, or 66, or 86, but our true age, because everything we are comes from the living sacred body of Earth. Every element of our bodies and the air we breathe and the food we\u2019re going to eat. So, it\u2019s time that we recognized that. I know we\u2019re impermanent. We\u2019re impermanent as ripples in a lake and bubbles in a river, but our true nature is the water that pours down. And it\u2019s always invigorating to know your true source, don\u2019t you find?<\/p>\n


\n<\/em>TS: [Yes.] But you know, it\u2019s interesting when you say that, \u201cLet\u2019s act our age,\u201d and that really we\u2019re billions of years old, I think most people still identify, \u201cYes, but I\u2019m 50-something or 60- something.\u201d You\u2019re describing\u2014<\/p>\n

JM: That\u2019s very boring.<\/p>\n

TS: Yes. You\u2019re describing a change of worldview. Is that really alive for you day to day? \u201cI feel like I\u2019m billions of years old?\u201d<\/p>\n

JM: [Laughs] Well, actually, it\u2019s been more alive in recent years, especially in the last year when you see what we\u2019re facing with the unraveling of political, economic, ecological structures. And so, when we\u2019re faced with something that demanding of our attention and that requiring our exploring who we really are and what\u2019s there for us, and what we want in our center of our being, to be engaged in. Well, it\u2019s coming alive with the Earth, protecting all life. Don\u2019t you think?<\/p>\n

TS: Well, you know, it\u2019s interesting, because I read in your work, in the philosophical underpinnings of The Work That Reconnects\u2014which is the body of work in training that you\u2019ve been engaged in for the past couple of decades\u2014that you think not only of the Earth being alive but that the Earth is our larger body. And I thought to myself, \u201cWell, you know, for a lot of people that\u2019s somewhat conceptual. They don\u2019t experience it, really, as a living truth: the Earth is my larger body.\u201d Can you help me understand how someone could learn to live that more with real awareness, not just as a conceptual idea: \u201cOh, the Earth is alive\u201d?<\/p>\n

JM: Well, one of the most dramatic demonstrations to me of the immediacy of this apprehension was when I describe, at that meeting you mentioned, which was in the mid-1980s in Australia, with a brave rainforest activist, John Seed, who told that the greatest epiphany\u2014recognition of the true nature of the universe\u2014was as he was defending old-growth forests, the great trees of the ancient continent of Gondwanaland, from illegal logging and illegal police connivance. They were outnumbered, and they had no weapons or didn\u2019t want them. They just had their bodies standing between the logging companies and the grappling hooks and the trees. And then he, at that point, realized, \u201cOh, it\u2019s not me, John Seed, who\u2019s protecting the rainforest. The rainforest is protecting herself through this piece of humanity, which it, over the millennia, cradled into existence.\u201d<\/p>\n

Immediately, that came not out of hearing nature mystics preach from the pulpit or reading poetry, though I must say, one of the great vehicles for this recognition is often poetic and not conceptual. Conceptual thought is so often a rearview mirror, using words for what we\u2019ve already understood. But what opens the windows and doors are the requirements\u2014the adventures we actually have in the flesh, as John Seed did defending the rainforest.<\/p>\n

TS: So, it sounds to me, if I were to summarize this first part of our conversation, that the sense of vigor that you feel is this connection to the larger Earth. And you said also during this time\u2014 during this time when, I think, many people are finding themselves, unfortunately, not more invigorated but more despairing, more feeling defeated. How is it that you\u2019re able to have this sense of coming even more alive during the challenge?<\/p>\n

JM: Well, you know, Tami, the year anniversary of the inauguration of our current president there were people marching in cities across the country. It was vigorous, and there was a lot of laughter and fantasy too, and determination. I\u2019m seeing a lot of resilience and a lot of creativity, and the finding different ways to resist and to protect. Out here there\u2019s been a move, despite our declaration of sanctuary cities to protect undocumented and dreamers, a huge movement to just deport by strength and by attacking people where they can be found. And there\u2019s such a beautiful resistance to this. So, I think it may be a question of what I\u2019m looking at. What I\u2019m choosing to look at are the people who\u2014or where my attention is arrested\u2014are people who are saying, \u201cThis isn\u2019t \u2026\u201d I want to flourish in those parts of myself that can stay aligned with life. And to move to where life is reinventing or encouraging us to find ever new ways\u2014new ways of capturing, you know, carbon sequestration in the land and new ways of solving conflicts. All those things that in the work I do we call \u201cThe Great Turning.\u201d<\/p>\n

The Great Turning is still happening. The media\u2014ha ha\u2014our supine, compliant media doesn\u2019t focus on that truly creative aspect of the popular response to the current administration.
\n
\n<\/em>TS: You talk about how there are these three stories of our time. One story, which you\u2019re describing now, which you call the Great Turning. This engaged response where we\u2019re reinventing our world. We\u2019re in the midst of doing it. But you also say that one possible story for our time is the Great Unraveling\u2014that we\u2019re, just to summarize it quickly, headed to the sixth extinction. This is what\u2019s happening. And that a third possible story is\u2014<\/p>\n

JM: Yes.<\/p>\n

TS: Oh, this is just business as usual. Let\u2019s all go back to our football games and paying off our mortgages. My question to you is you\u2019re clearly invested\u2014<\/p>\n

JM: That\u2019s right. And they\u2019re all happening.<\/p>\n

TS: Right. You\u2019re clearly invested in the Great Turning.<\/p>\n

JM: They\u2019re all happening, so it\u2019s just a question of\u2014and this is what\u2019s the most emboldening thing to treasure in our situation\u2014is that we humans, as fallible and scared and dumb as we can be, we have the choice of where we put our attention. We have the choice on how we understand a given set of experiences, because these three narratives about what\u2019s happening now are all true. The voices that dominate are voices that say, \u201cEverything is going to be OK. We\u2019re going to make America great again, just the old way. We\u2019re going to grow our economy, grow our military power. We\u2019re going to distract ourselves with more and more entertainment. We\u2019re going to take what we can from the Earth. Let\u2019s open everything up to mining and oil drilling, et cetera.\u201d So that\u2019s charged, but most of the voices we hear are that, aren\u2019t they?<\/p>\n

Then there are a few voices more that are saying, \u201cOh, but this is destroying everything.\u201d<\/p>\n

And they’re voices of the scientists that haven\u2019t been bought and the journalists that haven\u2019t been intimidated. But then there\u2019s another story\u2014and it\u2019s happening too\u2014a story of resistance and creativity, and a shift in consciousness. That\u2019s part of that Great Turning story. Where we choose to see our world not just as a supply house or a sewer, but to see it as a living body. And that\u2019s what I find the most exciting, Tami, about this moment, because in these first years of the third millennium, both science and spirituality and religion\u2014back from the indigenous ones right up to our current Creation Spirituality\u2014are seeing that the Earth is alive.<\/p>\n

This blows me away. That at the very time when the Earth is under such assault from greed and hatred and the urge to dominate, at the same time, we are hearing voices from the indigenous folks right up to the contemporary scientists and the new cosmologists and the evolutionary psychologists and the evolutionary science, that the Earth is a living body. From systems science, Gaia theory. To me, this is stunning. And though we don\u2019t know which story is going to win out, maybe we\u2019ll just pillage and plunder our Earth to death. But we\u2019re given another story now. The people that I find myself hanging out with more and more are people who can get turned on by that. Inspired by that. Enlisted by that.<\/p>\n

TS: I want to address that person who says, \u201cI see the possibility of the Great Turning, and I\u2019m willing to work on it in my life. I want to be part of that. Joanna Macy, I want to be with you and the vigor you feel, but truth be told, kind of deep in my gut, I think we\u2019re involved in the Great Unraveling. I don\u2019t feel very optimistic.\u201d<\/p>\n

JM: Oh, you\u2019re right. So that\u2019s right. I don\u2019t feel optimistic either. I think we put much too much value on optimism in America. Especially in America. So, I think we overrate hope in here, because we\u2019re constantly taking our pulse as to how hopeful we feel. So, in the book that I wrote with Chris Johnstone in England, Active Hope, we define hope not as something you have [but] as something you do. And you can see what you want to choose, and you take a step and then another step, and you join people who are making it a reality. And with that understanding of hope\u2014active hope, \u201chope\u201d as a verb, \u201cyou\u201d as a verb\u2014then you are acting even when you\u2019re feeling hopeless.<\/p>\n

TS: One of the big lights that went on for me when I was listening to this presentation you gave as part of this meditation teacher training program is that you give a very interesting definition of \u201capathy.\u201d You know, people think of \u201capathy\u201d as a time when we feel just paralyzed because we\u2019re hopeless, and I think people do sometimes, right now, feel paralyzed. \u201cI just feel hopeless.\u201d You define \u201capathy\u201d as the refusal, or inability, to suffer. So, help me understand how you came to that and how important that is.
\n
\n<\/em>JM: Yes. Well, I was\u2014yes. Tami, this is also very important to me. About 40 years ago, when I was engaged in activism around nuclear power plants and nuclear weapons, and because I was engaged with a team that was suing a reactor station, I was doing a lot of research on health. And I saw that the closer you got to a nuclear power station, even when it wasn\u2019t having an accident, the more likely you were to have miscarriages and stillbirths and birth defects and tumors and leukemia. And so, this was astonishing to me and important. What I found was that nobody wanted to hear it. People\u2019s eyes would glaze over. I said, \u201cYou know, what\u2019s da-da-da?\u201d Then I saw that most of the social justice and particularly the environmental movements and organizations were talking to the public and wringing their hands that the public was \u201capathetic.\u201d And they were trying to scare the public: Don\u2019t you realize how dangerous this is? Don\u2019t you
\nrealize what this is doing to, et cetera, et cetera.<\/p>\n

They were acting as if the people didn\u2019t care. As if the public didn\u2019t care. As if the public were suffering from this \u201capathy.\u201d So, I looked it up. I went to the etymology of it, from the Greek apatheia. Patheia means \u201cto suffer\u201d; a- is the negative. It\u2019s the choosing not to suffer, or the inability to suffer; the refusal to suffer. Then, boy, that really clicked. So, I began to talk to people: \u201cWell, how do we deal with something that is painful?\u201d And we worked in groups. And being able to touch into areas of moral and mental pain that people were fearful of being alienating from other people, fearful of being viewed as depressing or depressed, fearful of being considered unpatriotic, et cetera. And fearful of pain itself. In this, particularly in American culture, where we\u2019ve never had an invasive war and things.<\/p>\n

You know, I don\u2019t want to get into that, but that has been\u2014and this is what has made me appreciative of the faith traditions of our planet, where there\u2019s this recognition from my root tradition and biblical roots in Christianity, and in Buddhism, which has been very important to me, that we recognize that suffering happens and that we are able to keep our eyes open so that we can choose how to be with it in a way that\u2019s helpful to ourselves and to other people.<\/p>\n

TS: Now, Joanna, what would you say to that person who says, \u201cMy fear around feeling all of the suffering I feel about the state of the world is that I\u2019ll get stuck in it and I\u2019ll just wallow in it forever\u201d?<\/p>\n


\n<\/em>JM: Yes, most people do, I\u2019d say. They feel, \u201cOh, once I open the door\u2014\u201d Oh, I\u2019ve heard people. Yes, they say, \u201cLook, I\u2019ve got a family to feed. I\u2019ve got a job to keep. Don’t ask me to feel what I\u2019m feeling because I\u2019ll drown in it and I won\u2019t be able to get up in the morning,\u201d or something. But actually, this is only a feeling. And you\u2019re only stuck with things that you\u2019re holding, and the distance is straight-arming out, that you\u2019re refusing to experience. Once you experience it, it\u2019s just\u2014boop\u2014it\u2019s just a feeling. Then you\u2019re actually freer from its stranglehold on you: \u201cOh, I can say that, yes. I feel terrible. I\u2019m scared shitless. Oh, I can do\u2014\u201d Then, in saying that, you find yourself distanced from it, not at its mercy.<\/p>\n

This is a very basic form, many forms of attention and meditation. How do you direct your attention and presence? You decide to be with. The gift of our presence to our world is the biggest gift we can give. We can choose to be with our world in a way that opens our minds and our hearts to the suffering that is there. But speaking it, entertaining it, actually creates some distance from the pain or frees you from its stranglehold. Frees you up. So, I\u2019ve never known as much hilarity in my life as in the midst of \u201cdespair work,\u201d as we called it. That was the first name for this work: despair work. Despair and empowerment, because being able to voice\u2014and we can see this in our own lives\u2014when you voice what has been distracting you and frightening you, it shrinks in its power. It\u2019s like the Wizard of Oz pulling back the curtain. Or, I guess, who was it? It was Toto who pulled back the curtain and just realized that it was this little guy.<\/p>\n

TS: [Yes.] What I think\u2019s interesting is people often, I think, tend to go to outrage, righteous indignation, anger, that kind of thing more so than a first move, when they\u2019re responding to a situation in the world, than \u201cCan I tell you how I\u2019m suffering, hearing this?\u201d<\/p>\n

JM: No, that\u2019s\u2014you\u2019re describing me. [Laughs]<\/p>\n

TS: I think I might be describing myself, too.<\/p>\n

JM: I\u2019m a big-anger type. Yes. So, actually, that\u2019s a form of suffering too. You don\u2019t bottle up. Where emotions get dangerous is when you lock them inside and they fester. You know, they\u2019re pent up and then explode. Yes.
\n
\n<\/em>TS: But, you know, interestingly, when you led this group that you were teaching through a series of sentences that they were to complete and then share their answer with each other, and I want to share the first two sentences, Joanna, because they were very powerful for me. So, you asked people to complete this first sentence: \u201cWhen I look at what we\u2019re doing to the natural world, what breaks my heart is\u2014\u201d and then people fill in the sentence.<\/p>\n

JM: And they were in pairs. They would speak it to one other person.<\/p>\n

TS: And then you had a second sentence: \u201cWhen I see what\u2019s happening to human society, what breaks my heart is \u2026\u201d And I noticed when I heard these sentences, and I heard the phrase \u201cWhat breaks my heart is,\u201d it brought out a very different response than my normal righteous-indignation-and-anger response. It brought something different out in me. \u201cWhat breaks my heart is \u2026\u201d So, I wanted to talk about that and why you focus on that language for people to come forward about what\u2019s breaking our heart.<\/p>\n

JM: [Yes.] Yes, well, that\u2019s language I\u2019ve been using over the last 10, 12 years, I guess. Before, at the very beginning of this, I would use things, you know, \u201cOne fear I have about the world \u2026\u201d
\n[and] \u201cWhat causes me \u2026\u201d But right now, I feel that you can go straight to the heartbreak, because that\u2019s there underneath. It\u2019s there in the grief, and it\u2019s right there under the outrage, and it\u2019s right there under the hopelessness and the dread and the suffocation of not daring to want to\u2014untouched, or rather unverbalized, unaccepted, unexpressed. What happens is that we either shut down, like paralysis. You get paralyzed. You used that word earlier. Or, just\u2014and those are like twin responses\u2014you can panic. The paralysis and the panic are like twins on a seesaw or something, because the one can build the other. The panic, or social hysteria, is getting ever closer to the surface in our culture, don\u2019t you think? \u201c<\/p>\n

TS: Yes.<\/p>\n

JM: So, we\u2019re both\u2014our culture is gripped by\u2014I often picture it in my mind as we\u2019re walking up the hill toward the future where the sun will peep over the horizon. We\u2019ve locked arms, we\u2019re going there, but on either side of the road we\u2019re walking is a ditch, and one ditch is paralysis and the other ditch is panic. And it\u2019s easy to fall into one or the other.<\/p>\n

TS: Now, it\u2019s interesting when you said we\u2019re walking arm in arm and the sun is rising. I notice a part of me had this voice inside, Joanna, that said, \u201cI just don\u2019t buy it. I don\u2019t believe it. I want to. That sure sounds great. Is that really the Great Turning story Joanna\u2019s choosing to believe in? That\u2019s like some Pollyanna thing. I just can\u2019t buy it.\u201d<\/p>\n

JM: Yes, well, I was deliberately choosing a very positive\u2014but, at any point, all the time, even as we think we\u2019re walking to the future there is, because of the darkness and immensity of the dangers we\u2019re creating and wrecking our world with, are these tendencies to close down or erupt and turn on each other. So, if you express\u2014and maybe this doesn\u2019t make sense for a lot of people, but it has for me, and for people who are\u2014if you can speak it and own it.<\/p>\n

You know, Tami, we\u2019re a country of shut-down people. And we can leave them shut down with more hopelessness and distrust, or we can let people open up by expressing, because you see, we are all living parts of a living larger body: our Earth. And we are\u2014we already belong to each other and to the [Earth]. We may not feel it at a given situation, but we breathe the same air. We drink the same water. We are hearing. We are seeing the same sky. Our innards have the same beautiful intricacy and plumbing that brings forth new life; that can paint a picture. We have the same so that\u2014and there\u2019s a drive in living systems to evolve. They\u2019re self-organizing, and they\u2019re self-evolving.<\/p>\n

So, the essential for me has been not only my scholarship and practice in the Buddhadharma, as well as my Christian roots, but my doctoral work in systems theory. Living systems. And living systems want to unfold. So, you\u2019re really, when you turn off, you can pull down the blinds and lock the door and turn off the tube, but that\u2019s not a way you\u2019re at your happiest, and you\u2019re not feeling very fulfilled\u2014or alive.<\/p>\n

TS: OK. A couple of questions here for you. One is that in talking to you right here in this conversation, one of the things that really impresses me is how real it is for you in your experience of being a part of the greater body of the Earth and the Earth\u2019s evolutionary process. And I\u2019m wondering, was there an experience you had? Because a lot of people, they\u2019ve read systems theory, and they\u2019ve studied interdependent co-arising, and they understand it theoretically, but they don\u2019t really know it. Was there some experience in your life, Joanna, where it lit up for you as a living truth?<\/p>\n

JM: Well, as a child, I loved being on the summers at my grandfather\u2019s farm. But I think that a moment that I found, looking back now, as self-freeing, was actually over 50 years ago when I was just coming into\u2014I was in the Peace Corps in India and beginning to meet and work with Tibetan refugees and finally drew up the courage to ask for some teachings, but not for the first year because they were so tired, sick, and hungry. But then when the teachings came, the teaching that blew the top off my head was the teaching of no self. That we don\u2019t have a permanent, separate self. It came to me in a way, which is what I was reading and where I was\u2014 I think I mentioned that, actually, in that talk\u2014where this is powerful medicine for a people who, for a culture that for 500 years has been steeped in and having drilled into it this hyper-individualism. This competitive, lonely, cowboy ego. And the only person you can really rely on is yourself, and that you must be the captain of your ship and the master of this soul. It\u2019s come to the point of our journey of humanity that is showing how the tragic effects of this kind of conditioning and so that when I experienced\u2014not just conceptually but allowed myself to experience what it would be like to not be a separate, permanent self and to be\u2014it was like a popcorn popping. All was outside was on the middle, and what was in the center of me was on the outside in the world around me.<\/p>\n

Now, that has been true, and you can find mystics in every culture, and poets as well. And other artists and dancers who have testified to this experience of having a collective identity of this feeling\u2014this profound \u201cinterbeing,\u201d as Thich Nhat Hanh would call it. It is something that can be experienced. What I think is that that is more consonant with science than with just the normal way to be. And I\u2019ve seen it in activists. And I\u2019ve seen it in teachers. And I\u2019ve seen it in the Doctors Beyond Borders. I\u2019ve seen it in the guides helping people find a way out of a deathly situation. That this is a natural thing to feel that you belong. And that mutual belonging is our birthright. And that it fits with science and also fits with poetry and with your heart.<\/p>\n

TS: [Yes.] It\u2019s interesting that you said\u2014<\/p>\n

JM: I\u2019m ranting, aren\u2019t I?
\n
\n<\/em>TS: No, I like it. It\u2019s interesting when you said \u201cwhen the top blew off my head,\u201d and then you used the image of a kernel of popcorn popping. I really liked both of those. Now you talk, Joanna, about the Earth and its evolutionary process. The Earth is our greater body. If you were to give voice, if you will, to the Earth\u2019s evolutionary process as you see it right now, what would that be? How do you think the big body of the Earth is seeing where we are and where we\u2019re going?<\/p>\n

JM: I don\u2019t really make a great effort to try to do that, Tami, because it\u2019s beyond my capacity. I\u2019m very affected by and grateful to cosmologists and scientists like Brian Swimme who are seeing the rising of Gaia consciousness. All I know is that I belong to this earth\u2014that I have been part of its evolution. And my journey didn\u2019t start when I came out of my mother\u2019s vagina, nor did it start when I became a cell with my conception. It began with her conception and the mothers and father before her. I go back, back, back through time. This is one of the whole set of practices that we do in The Work That Reconnects to expand our sense of lived time. Expand our temporal context so that we\u2019re more than just this little span from our birth to our death in this lifetime, but that we have been on the way through countless generations\u2014and even before that, in countless lifeforms. We remember that, in our mother\u2019s womb, we have a tail like a fish, and gills. The forms are repeating themselves. You know, phylogeny recapitulates, whatever, that we review our whole journey.<\/p>\n

That whole journey of life on our Earth is what has brought us here and contemporary science, both in systems and in the holographic view of our universe and our planet, the whole is\u2014we\u2019re not only part of the whole, but the whole is in us. People are experiencing that mystically. They\u2019re experiencing that sometimes right on the barricades. They\u2019re experiencing that with medicines that expand the consciousness, from mind-expanding plant entheogens. So that we\u2019re at a moment in our history when we\u2019re being asked to expand as much as we can to the mystery that is inside us\u2014the power and the beauty of this generative journey\u2014and that it cannot only be an amusing occupation to do that, but it can give you a tremendous sense of \u201cWow, I belong here. Wow, I have this vision. I will do anything I can to keep, to preserve the fertility and the verdancy and the intricacy of the lifeforms of this planet. This is my home. This is a wonder.\u201d<\/p>\n

People, you get high off it. You feel \u201cThis is why I\u2019m here.\u201d It makes you glad. I\u2019d rather be glad than depressed.<\/p>\n

TS: But let\u2019s talk to that person, because you\u2019ve said a couple of times this idea of feeling this deep sense of belonging. And I agree with you. That\u2019s such a fulfilling feeling. Something we all want. Something we long for. But what about that person who says, \u201cYou know, I feel very sensitive, and I don\u2019t belong on a planet filled with this much vulgarity and grossness and pain and terribleness as is here on Planet Earth. I don\u2019t feel like I belong. I feel like an outsider.\u201d<\/p>\n

JM: Oh, yes. Well, I\u2019ve heard that. Yes, that\u2019s perfectly fine. Sure. I say, \u201cYou\u2019re perfectly right. I sometimes feel that too. \u2018Let me out of here.\u2019 Let\u2019s talk about it. Let\u2019s act it out.\u201d It can get pretty funny, actually, because our body knows\u2014underneath the words that we use for the feelings we decide to express\u2014that there is a body that knows it needs this air. That knows it needs this water. That wants this water to be clean. That knows that it wants another body to hold and be held. So that our bodies\u2014it\u2019s often our scary minds that want to make these statements of \u201cI don\u2019t like it. I don\u2019t like it. I don\u2019t want to be here.\u201d But underneath is a body that knows that it belongs because it needs\u2014it\u2019s dependent on the belonging. Physically dependent.<\/p>\n

TS: [Yes.]<\/p>\n

JM: Does that make any sense to you?<\/p>\n

TS: It does make sense, and I think it\u2019s very beautiful, actually, what you\u2019re saying. I\u2019m taking a quote now from one of the building blocks\u2014principles\u2014of The Work That Reconnects. And the quote is \u201cunblocking our energy of engagement occurs when our pain for the world is experienced and expressed.\u201d And it sounds like that\u2019s a lot of what you\u2019re talking about here, that we need to both experience it and talk about it. Talk about it to other people.<\/p>\n

JM: That\u2019s right, because then you find that a lot of company\u2014there isn\u2019t anybody in the room who doesn\u2019t feel that same fear, horror, disgust, outrage, grief, loathing in various ways. You have your own particular cocktail of it, but it\u2019s sort of \u201cjoin the crowd.\u201d What we need to do, what our culture has done, Tami, is it has pathologized our feelings of distress and fear and loathing about what\u2019s happening to our world.<\/p>\n

TS: [Yes.]<\/p>\n

JM: And the dominant model in psychotherapy, still, has been to try to see what was the biographic cause in your early childhood or something. Whereas a key moment\u2014I mean, key for me from the first moment with this work\u2014was to realize: oh boy, we better, and I need to help people see that when you\u2019re feeling this sadness, revulsion, grief over what we\u2019re doing, that is not neurotic or psychotic or aside any pathology. It is wholesome. It is healthy. Our pain for the world is simply one side of the coin, and the other side is our love for the world. They co-arise. Because why does it distress you to see the homeless and hungry and even little kids on the street? It\u2019s because you know in your heart that\u2019s not to be done. You can\u2019t accept that this is how we\u2019re treating people, so your depression over the homeless or over the plutonium blowing around out at Rocky Flats has its roots in a deep caring.<\/p>\n

TS: [Yes.]<\/p>\n

JM: So that was our discovery when we started the work. And that caring is because we belong. We are interwoven with each other.<\/p>\n

TS: Now, you took the people in this workshop through yet a third question that they could share with their partner where they fill in the sentence, and it was: \u201cIf I could access all the power that there is for me coming through the web of life, the one thing I would do for the sake of my world is\u201d and then, dot, dot, dot\u2014people fill that in. \u201cWhat\u2019s the one thing I would do?\u201d One thing I read in your work, Joanna, that I thought was interesting, was that you said \u201cthe steps we take can be modest ones, but they should involve some risk to our mental and social comfort lest we remain caught in old, safe limits. Courage is a great teacher and bringer of joy.\u201d So, I wanted to talk about doing this one thing that we might want to do for the sake of our world, and that it should involve some risk to our mental and social comfort. What do you mean? What kind of risk are you talking about here?
\n
\n<\/em>JM: Well, it could be different today than tomorrow, but it could be a risk like talking to your neighbor about what\u2019s happening around the corner, or the homeless camp, or taking the risk of sharing your feelings with someone. Or it could be taking the risk of running for city council.<\/p>\n

TS: [Yes.] What would you say are the risks that you\u2019ve taken in your life that have really been important and you\u2019ve thought to yourself, \u201cThis is a risk. This is risky. I\u2019m going to do it. I\u2019m going to step out of my safe zone and do this thing.\u201d?<\/p>\n

JM: Well, doing this work was, to me, I was scared all the time. There was, in the first years of pulling people together in the first workshops. They were called \u201cDespair and Empowerment.\u201d I felt pretty sure that people would\u2014I expected people to walk out. And when my teenage children at one point said, \u201cOh, we\u2019d like to come,\u201d I said, \u201cOh, no, no, no. You don\u2019t need to know. You don\u2019t need to come.\u201d It was because I didn\u2019t want them to see me fail. So, it was very\u2014because I hadn\u2019t seen anybody else do this before, but I just had this strong hunch that that\u2019s what we need.<\/p>\n

So, actually, I wondered later whether I tried to discourage my teenage daughter and son from coming because I didn\u2019t want to know how they felt about their world. But they did come, and it was life-changing for all of us. You know, it breeds courage, and it breeds solidarity. And I see it\u2019s affected their lives\u2014what they\u2019ve done. My daughter working as medical social worker with HIV children and AIDS. She\u2019s facing pain all the time. And my son, he\u2019s been in right on the ground floor creating zero-waste programs here that are now being adopted around the world. Oh, you most certainly omit this from this interview! Don\u2019t ever have a bragging mother on your show! [Laughs]<\/p>\n

TS: I\u2019m happy to hear you as a bragging mother, which actually does bring me to something I wanted to ask you. At 88, when you feel into your life now\u2014everything you\u2019ve done in the outer world and the inner world and your family life\u2014what brings you the most sense of fulfillment?<\/p>\n

JM: [Pauses] Well, I have\u2014it\u2019s not what I\u2019ve done that moves me so. It\u2019s what I\u2019m open to. Before coming home to sit and wait for your call, Tami, I was watching the clock, and I went for a walk in my neighborhood to exercise my body and breathe the fresh air. It\u2019s a beautiful cloudy, sunny day. And I was, again, just getting almost intoxicated with the freshness of the air. The generosity of the world that puts out its leaves and\u2014yes, I\u2019m moved to\u2014I think that\u2019s what I\u2019m most grateful for is that the path I have been\u2014that opened for me and that I took has helped me so love my world.<\/p>\n

TS: [Yes.]<\/p>\n

JM: And I think that\u2019s\u2014and I want to tell you, you know, at 88, turning 89, I\u2019m still scared. This time it\u2019s that I\u2019m so old and forgetful and appearing in public with my wrinkled face and all of that, because you don\u2019t leave your vanity behind completely, you know?<\/p>\n

TS: Well, Joanna, now I have to tell you a story, which is last night I was telling my wife, \u201cI get to interview Joanna Macy tomorrow. Look at her face. Look at how beautiful she is. Look at the sparkle in those eyes and the natural wrinkles in her face.\u201d We both just sat there looking at your picture, remarking how beautiful you are.<\/p>\n

JM: [Laughs]<\/p>\n

TS: True story.<\/p>\n

JM: Oh. Oh, I guess I will have to\u2014<\/p>\n

TS: Just take that in.<\/p>\n

JM: Memorize that and put that behind my left ear. [Laughs]<\/p>\n

TS: It\u2019s true.<\/p>\n

JM: Yes. You know, I need to say this too, Tami. That I\u2019m not brimming with hope about what will happen to our planet as a home for complex life forms. Nor am I sunk in despair. But I know that\u2014to me it\u2019s even-steven what\u2019s going to happen because it\u2019s\u2014and in a way, I know it\u2019s out of my hands. I\u2019ll do what I can for the Great Turning, but if the Great Unraveling unravels to the point where new ways of being and organizing ourselves can\u2019t turn it around, that\u2019s OK too. Because once we know who we really are, once we know that we belong to the living body of Earth, then we\u2019re already home. Maybe that\u2019s why I was feeling so moved as I walked around the neighborhood before we talked. We belong now, and we always belong. We\u2019ve always belonged. And that somehow, as you let it take hold, it actually can seem enough. It\u2019s wonder enough.<\/p>\n

TS: Now, when you said \u201ceven-steven,\u201d \u201cthe Great Unraveling,\u201d or \u201cthe Great Turning\u201d and that that\u2019s not what you\u2019re basing this sense of open aliveness on, I\u2019m with you. And\u2014<\/p>\n

JM: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n

TS: The Great Unraveling, I think\u2014<\/p>\n

JM: That\u2019s right. Oh, now, if people tell me that it\u2019s a sure thing we\u2019re going to pull through, it makes me want to prove them wrong because it seems so fatuous, and it seems so diminishing of the true drama of the moment we\u2019re in. We are actually in a moment where everything can be lost, of the complex life-forms\u2014of the intelligence that has grown on this\u2014but we\u2019re still in the body of Earth, and it\u2019s still a living system. And isn\u2019t it beautiful? To be able to hold up your head and laugh in the wind at a time like this. That\u2019s another form of the beauty of our Earth. Your courage, your showing up week after week for this show, making podcasts that mean so much to people. However you feel, whatever else is pulling at you. There\u2019s so much beauty.<\/p>\n

TS: Now, well, Joanna, I want to ask you a question, though, about this even-steven situation for a moment, which is: We hear so many different visions of the Great Unraveling. You know, there\u2019s three or four movies out at any given time that are apocalyptic of some form or another, but we don\u2019t have, I don\u2019t think, very many images of the Great Turning. Of what this could actually be like. And I wonder if you carry a vision inside of the Great Turning.<\/p>\n

JM: Yes. I think that it has\u2014I don\u2019t think we\u2019re going to be able to make it around this with this challenge without rediscovering our love for this planet and our mutual belonging in her\u2014in this fountain of beauty and life and intelligence. It\u2019s all we have. And it\u2019s been beautiful, so we can be grateful. I know there\u2019s been terrible things in history as we know it, but there have been great, great forms. Living forms of great intricacy and intelligence and great works of art. And great acts of nobility. If you can\u2014to me, the deep time work as part of The Work That Reconnects has been the most spiritually and emotionally transforming. It has helped me move beyond just Joanna\u2019s lifetime, but to see the larger drama and landscape of which I am a part. And before, when I felt a little stab of inadequacy thinking about how I might measure up in this interview with you, I immediately thought, \u201cOh. I\u2019ll just ask the future ones to be there.\u201d Because I invite them into my life a lot. I dedicate\u2014<\/p>\n

TS: How do you do that? What do you\u2014you visualize people from the future being here,
\nlistening?<\/p>\n

JM: Yes.<\/p>\n

TS: Aha! Interesting.<\/p>\n

JM: Oh, yes. And you know, the most beautiful of the work, I think, is in the deep time work, where we talk in pairs, but we talk across seven generations. And one will be talking as if she\u2019s living in 2218, and the other is just 2018. That\u2019s about seven generations. Or it could be a much bigger time span, but it\u2019s feeling that\u2014you see, technology and our market forces have accelerated time and introduced very short-term thinking.<\/p>\n

But our ancestors could think across generations. They could work on a stone, chiseling a portal for a cathedral that they\u2019d never see in their own lifetimes. And they could get meaning from taking part in building something that would flourish for those who came after, but they\u2019d never see. That\u2019s perfectly possible. And it\u2019s very\u2014it\u2019s ennobling, in a way, if you don\u2019t mind my sounding too, claiming too much.<\/p>\n

But it gives a little sprinkling, maybe, of nobility to your life\u2014that you\u2019re engaged in something that makes perfect sense to you and that embodies your love for the ongoing journey of humanity and the future ones, even if you won\u2019t see it yourself. Really, our lives are bigger than being consumers or being performers on the stage right
\nnow.<\/p>\n

TS: [Yes.]<\/p>\n

JM: This is, yes, what they call the \u201cecological self,\u201d or there are other terms, but we\u2019re part of a\u2014we\u2019re much bigger than our culture gives us credit for, and we can nurture a sense of roots and continuity that lend meaning and inspiration to our lives.<\/p>\n

TS: OK. I just have one final question. You talked about the great, ancient nature of your life\u2014that your life didn\u2019t start when you came out of your mother\u2019s womb. And I wonder, at 88, almost 89, when you imagine your own death, what your feelings are about that at this point. What your view is at this point.<\/p>\n

JM: Oh, well, I think about that quite a bit because I\u2019m getting close to the age my immediate ancestors kicked the bucket, or popped off, or whatever. Moved on, passed over. So, I\u2019m curious. It\u2019s mainly\u2014I don\u2019t\u2014I\u2014don\u2019t want to live forever. And I\u2019m glad that there\u2019ll be things I gave my heart, mind, and body to that will pass on in these patterns of practices. I think some will. I think that, as a matter of fact, I\u2019ve even had the nerve to think that some of these practices will become intrinsic to the spirituality of the third millennium.<\/p>\n

TS: Beautiful. But I don\u2019t know if you really answered the question fully, in terms of your own emotional orientation, if you will. I\u2019d be curious to know about that.<\/p>\n

JM: Oh, well, I\u2019m going to go into the ground after I die, near where we placed my husband\u2019s body exactly nine years and two days ago. I\u2019m going to go into the soil without a coffin, just a shroud. Now, you didn\u2019t expect me to be this graphic, I bet. But I\u2019m part of the circle of life. There\u2019s a beautiful meditation that I created with John Seed, where we\u2019re giving thanks: we will recycle our lives into the great body of Earth.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"template":"","meta":{"_expiration-date-status":"","_expiration-date":0,"_expiration-date-type":"","_expiration-date-categories":[],"_expiration-date-options":[]},"class_list":["post-8403","transcript","type-transcript","status-publish","hentry"],"yoast_head":"\nJoanna Macy We Belong Hope Choice And Our Relationship Wi...<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Joanna Macy We Belong Hope Choice And Our Relationship With The Earth. Explore teachings on med\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"noindex, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Joanna Macy We Belong Hope Choice And Our Relationship Wi...\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Joanna Macy We Belong Hope Choice And Our Relationship With The Earth. Explore teachings on med\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/joanna-macy-we-belong-hope-choice-and-our-relationship-with-the-earth\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Sounds True\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"37 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/joanna-macy-we-belong-hope-choice-and-our-relationship-with-the-earth\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/joanna-macy-we-belong-hope-choice-and-our-relationship-with-the-earth\/\",\"name\":\"Joanna Macy We Belong Hope Choice And Our Relationship Wi...\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#website\"},\"datePublished\":\"2020-10-20T23:30:30+00:00\",\"description\":\"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Joanna Macy We Belong Hope Choice And Our Relationship With The Earth. Explore teachings on med\",\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/joanna-macy-we-belong-hope-choice-and-our-relationship-with-the-earth\/#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/joanna-macy-we-belong-hope-choice-and-our-relationship-with-the-earth\/\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/joanna-macy-we-belong-hope-choice-and-our-relationship-with-the-earth\/#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"Transcripts\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":3,\"name\":\"Joanna Macy: We Belong: Hope, Choice, and Our Relationship with the Earth\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/\",\"name\":\"Sounds True\",\"description\":\"\",\"publisher\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#organization\"},\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":{\"@type\":\"PropertyValueSpecification\",\"valueRequired\":true,\"valueName\":\"search_term_string\"}}],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"Organization\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#organization\",\"name\":\"Sounds True\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/\",\"logo\":{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#\/schema\/logo\/image\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/08\/soundstrue-logo-footer-color.png\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/08\/soundstrue-logo-footer-color.png\",\"width\":1035,\"height\":235,\"caption\":\"Sounds True\"},\"image\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#\/schema\/logo\/image\/\"}}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Joanna Macy We Belong Hope Choice And Our Relationship Wi...","description":"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Joanna Macy We Belong Hope Choice And Our Relationship With The Earth. Explore teachings on med","robots":{"index":"noindex","follow":"follow","max-snippet":"max-snippet:-1","max-image-preview":"max-image-preview:large","max-video-preview":"max-video-preview:-1"},"og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"Joanna Macy We Belong Hope Choice And Our Relationship Wi...","og_description":"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Joanna Macy We Belong Hope Choice And Our Relationship With The Earth. Explore teachings on med","og_url":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/joanna-macy-we-belong-hope-choice-and-our-relationship-with-the-earth\/","og_site_name":"Sounds True","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_misc":{"Est. reading time":"37 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/joanna-macy-we-belong-hope-choice-and-our-relationship-with-the-earth\/","url":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/joanna-macy-we-belong-hope-choice-and-our-relationship-with-the-earth\/","name":"Joanna Macy We Belong Hope Choice And Our Relationship Wi...","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#website"},"datePublished":"2020-10-20T23:30:30+00:00","description":"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Joanna Macy We Belong Hope Choice And Our Relationship With The Earth. Explore teachings on med","breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/joanna-macy-we-belong-hope-choice-and-our-relationship-with-the-earth\/#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/joanna-macy-we-belong-hope-choice-and-our-relationship-with-the-earth\/"]}]},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/joanna-macy-we-belong-hope-choice-and-our-relationship-with-the-earth\/#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"Transcripts","item":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":3,"name":"Joanna Macy: We Belong: Hope, Choice, and Our Relationship with the Earth"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#website","url":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/","name":"Sounds True","description":"","publisher":{"@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#organization"},"potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":{"@type":"PropertyValueSpecification","valueRequired":true,"valueName":"search_term_string"}}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Organization","@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#organization","name":"Sounds True","url":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/","logo":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#\/schema\/logo\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/08\/soundstrue-logo-footer-color.png","contentUrl":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/08\/soundstrue-logo-footer-color.png","width":1035,"height":235,"caption":"Sounds True"},"image":{"@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#\/schema\/logo\/image\/"}}]}},"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/transcript\/8403","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/transcript"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/transcript"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=8403"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}