{"id":9000,"date":"2021-04-13T22:25:12","date_gmt":"2021-04-13T22:25:12","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?post_type=transcript&p=9000"},"modified":"2021-04-13T22:25:12","modified_gmt":"2021-04-13T22:25:12","slug":"spencer-sherman-the-inner-mastery-of-money","status":"publish","type":"transcript","link":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/spencer-sherman-the-inner-mastery-of-money\/","title":{"rendered":"Spencer Sherman: The Inner Mastery of Money"},"content":{"rendered":"
\"image_print\"Print Transcript<\/span><\/a><\/div>

Tami Simon:<\/b> Welcome to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>, produced by Sounds True. My name\u2019s Tami Simon, I\u2019m the founder of Sounds True, and I\u2019d love to take a moment to introduce you to the new Sounds True Foundation. The Sounds True Foundation is dedicated to creating a wiser and kinder world by making transformational education widely available. We want everyone to have access to transformational tools such as mindfulness, emotional awareness, and self-compassion, regardless of financial, social, or physical challenges. The Sounds True Foundation is a nonprofit dedicated to providing these transformational tools to communities in need, including at-risk youth, prisoners, veterans, and those in developing countries. If you\u2019d like to learn more or feel inspired to become a supporter, please visit SoundsTrueFoundation.org.<\/span><\/p>\n

You\u2019re listening to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>. Today, my guest is Spencer Sherman. Spencer was named one of the top wealth advisors in the United States. He founded a sustainable financial firm with Buddhist values and he has an MBA from Wharton Business School. With Sounds True, Spencer is the coauthor of <\/span>The Money and Spirit Workshop<\/span><\/i>. He also is participating in Sounds True\u2019s new <\/span>Inner MBA<\/span><\/i> program and bringing his work on the inner mastery of money to the <\/span>Inner MBA<\/span><\/i>. The <\/span>Inner MBA<\/span><\/i> is a nine-month training program Sounds True is producing in partnership with LinkedIn, Wisdom 2.0, and a division of NYU called MindfulNYU. You can learn more at InnerMBAProgram.com.<\/span><\/p>\n

Truth be told, most of the people I know have some type of neurotic or confused or highly charged relationship with money. Here, Spencer describes how we could have a wise, healthy, uncharged relationship with money. Here\u2019s my conversation with Spencer Sherman.<\/span><\/p>\n

Spencer, I\u2019m so glad that you\u2019re bringing to the <\/span>Inner MBA<\/span><\/i> a special Accelerator Workshop on \u201cThe Inner Mastery of Money.\u201d I think when someone hears at first \u201cThe Inner Mastery of Money,\u201d I can imagine them thinking God, even before inner mastery, I\u2019d love to have a decent relationship with money\u2014before I even get to the mastery level.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

To start, what keeps us from having a healthy relationship with money? Truth be told, I don\u2019t know very many people who do have a healthy relationship with money. Why is this so tough?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Spencer Sherman:<\/b> Yes, Tami. I like to think of money, I like the metaphor of the iceberg. On the tip of the iceberg, what we see represents all the ordinary things with money that we often think about, like bills and taxes and investments and insurance and credit cards and mortgages and houses. All that\u2019s in the top half of the iceberg, and then there\u2019s the submerged part of the iceberg, and that\u2019s where our fixed beliefs with money and our fear lies, and that\u2019s what I\u2019ve discovered really drives the bus with money.<\/span><\/p>\n

I mean, I have a Wharton MBA, and what I\u2019ve discovered is that those beliefs that we cling to around money and the fear we have around it drive the best of us, in terms of our behavior with money. I think you know a little bit of my story with money, that I had this experience of running into a building that was completely unsafe as the firefighters were putting out a fire in Philadelphia a long time ago. I, and a few other people, somehow convinced the fire marshal to let us into that building where my stuff was, my material possessions. Only discovered they were all worthless after I recovered them.<\/span><\/p>\n

That day was a huge wake-up for me, Tami, because I realized I had this belief very solidly embedded in my mind that my self-worth equals my net worth. I\u2019ve discovered that\u2019s a somewhat pervasive belief in this culture, and that belief drove me to value my stuff more than my life.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> OK. When we talk about this iceberg analogy, which I think is a powerful one, can you give me some examples of fixed beliefs that are \u201cdriving the bus,\u201d as you say, when it comes to how we handle money?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

SS:<\/b> Yes. I\u2019ll share some that I can recall from some of the workshops I\u2019ve done. God will provide. It\u2019s easier to get a camel through the eye of a needle than a rich man into heaven. Stay out of debt. I don\u2019t deserve it. Don\u2019t trust people with money. I mean, here\u2019s one that I have very strongly growing up: rich people are happier. Money is everything. Your net worth equals your self-worth. You have to work hard to get money. I\u2019ve heard this from a lot of women: women aren\u2019t good with money. I didn\u2019t get that money success gene. Money is evil. Those are some of the messages that I hear, and those messages override anything we learn in school around money.<\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s why I\u2019ve seen MBAs make the same errors with money, do the same irrational things that the rest of us do with money. I\u2019ve realized that it\u2019s not just about what we know or even our experience with money. It\u2019s these emotional beliefs. These fixed beliefs are really driving our everyday money behavior.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> OK, well, let\u2019s just choose one that I think is pretty common, which is: I\u2019ll never feel really safe and secure. I\u2019ll never have enough money. I\u2019ll never have enough money. I don\u2019t feel safe. I don\u2019t feel secure. Let\u2019s say someone says, \u201cI know that\u2019s a belief that I have because I\u2019ve had it my whole life and I\u2019ve never felt secure, never felt like I had enough.\u201d How is Spencer Sherman, with his work around the inner mastery of money, going to help me with that belief? I\u2019ve felt it my whole life and it seems entrenched.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

SS:<\/b> Yes. This belief about not having enough. Well, you\u2019re in very good company because I think all of us have that sense that there\u2019s not enough. I mean, we live in a culture that\u2019s all about more. John Rockefeller, the world\u2019s first billionaire in 1916, his definition of enough was \u201cjust a little bit more.\u201d I think that was an incredible dharma teaching, because if he\u2019s saying that enough is a little bit more, then we know it\u2019s not about accumulating, it\u2019s not about getting to a number. Although I will say, and I\u2019ve been very clear about this, that our basic needs need to be satisfied of food, shelter, health care, basic education, all of that.<\/span><\/p>\n

Then, literally, someone doesn\u2019t have enough if they don\u2019t have those things satisfied, and that puts us into a huge place of stress. I\u2019ve always said that I think there\u2019s a huge opportunity in this country. If we were to give everybody a living wage so that they had enough for the basics, first of all, we\u2019d recognize their humanity, but we\u2019d also see all this economic potential. As a Wharton MBA, I\u2019m saying, hey, let\u2019s think about this idea of enough, because if everybody had the basics for enough, we\u2019d liberate a lot of potential in everybody.<\/span><\/p>\n

When people are in that stress place around not having enough, they\u2019re not creative. I think there\u2019s an opportunity there. For the rest of us, I think it\u2019s this realization that we\u2019re never going to get to enough by wanting more, and that the way to enough is to start appreciating and meeting what you have, start living in this present moment, because enough also brings us into the future. Like someday I\u2019ll have\u2014when this happens, or when I have this much money, then I\u2019ll be in a place of equanimity. Then I\u2019ll be able to relax.<\/span><\/p>\n

I\u2019m saying, and I think John Rockefeller was saying, you\u2019re not going to get there. It\u2019s time to just recognize that you need to start practicing being … Taking on this practice of enough right now.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Now, here you are, you\u2019re the founder of Abacus Wealth Advisors. I presume that you\u2019ve met at a conference room table again and again and again with many wealthy individuals, you are helping them invest their money. I\u2019m sure you\u2019ve met with people at all different levels of financial means, but here you\u2019re meeting with people who clearly have enough. They could relax. They could say, \u201cWe\u2019re good. We\u2019re good. We\u2019re at peace. We\u2019re chill.\u201d But yet, they\u2019re not. They\u2019re not acting that way. They\u2019re not feeling that way. Even hearing you talk about it, I wonder how much it penetrates people\u2019s beings such that, like\u2014what actually works to get people to come to this place of relaxation and ease?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

SS:<\/b> Yes. It\u2019s the recognition of the stress that not having enough produces, that when we\u2019re always on that hamster wheel of wanting something to be different, wanting more, there\u2019s a stress with that. I think, when that stress gets to be intense enough, we wake up and say, what are the other options? If nobody is getting to this place of enough, not even the billionaires, then what if I just start to experience that I have enough money, enough time, enough friends, enough skills, enough brain power? What if I have enough right now? To me, that, it\u2019s a liberating idea and it\u2019s one that we can start to practice.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> One of the most interesting aspects to me, Spencer, of your work is how you draw on Buddhist teachings and use their wisdom to help us with our money neurosis and money insanity. I wonder if you can give some examples of that, where you draw on Buddhist teachings and help us with our money life.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

SS:<\/b> Yes. Well, I think one of the principles of Buddhism is being content with what one has, and it\u2019s letting go of the future and living in this moment, being right here with this inhale and this exhale. This work is about coming into the present moment, is letting go of the future bringing you anything that you don\u2019t have today. Again, Tami, this is assuming that we all have those basics.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

I thought I\u2019d share one other example of somebody who asked … A client asked me, who had a couple million dollars, which is a lot of money, but said to me that \u201cIf you can double my money, I\u2019ll be free. I\u2019ll have this freedom.\u201d He almost talked about it in a Buddhist context. I got so excited about that, this possibility of that if I could only double his money, he\u2019d be free. Five years later, the markets cooperated, he saved money, he had doubled his money. I walk into the office and I\u2019m so excited to deliver this incredible news, and instead of him being less stressed, he\u2019s more stressed. He has a look of dread on his face.<\/span><\/p>\n

It actually was the beginning of a wake-up call for him, and this person has actually become one of the most generous clients that I have, and that\u2019s the other thing that happens when we get to this place of enough: you start to become more generous. And I think it\u2019s also true that, as we become more generous, we recognize the enoughness of what we have, and that generosity leads to a much more open heart. It\u2019s a condition for happiness and well-being, and then it connects us to many other beings as well.<\/span><\/p>\n

Let\u2019s talk about this structure of the <\/span>brahmaviharas<\/span><\/i> from Buddhism. The brahmaviharas are the four highest emotions in Buddhism. The one I like to start with is equanimity, because that\u2019s all about finding peace within the storms. I think so much with money, we have this idea that, or in a lot of areas of our life, that if I do everything well, if I brush my teeth, floss, take the right vitamins, meditate, listen to all the podcasts at Sounds True, etcetera, I\u2019ll have this life that\u2019s just smooth and even keel the whole way, right?<\/span><\/p>\n

The equanimity practices are about knowing that there\u2019ll be setbacks and developing this resilience inside so that you can be with the ups and downs of your investments or the ups and downs of your business. Knowing that in advance can lead to very different decisions than if you have some idea that it\u2019s going to be this constant upward trend. That\u2019s equanimity, which is also <\/span>upekkha<\/span><\/i> in the Pali language. Then I thought we could talk a little bit about sympathetic joy.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Sure.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

SS:<\/b> Yes, because sympathetic joy is, to me, the Buddha was really recognizing something underneath sympathetic joy. Sympathetic joy is about feeling joyful for another\u2019s success, right? That\u2019s somewhat of an un-American idea, right? The idea that you\u2019re going to be happy when other people are happy. I grew up in New York City. I grew up to be competitive, to not be happy when another person is happy. I think what the Buddha was really pointing to was envy and ill will.<\/span><\/p>\n

What I became aware of in my life is how much envy I had of a person in my life or a friend in my life. I saw how it was really keeping me from enjoying this person, loving this person, and also being successful myself, because every time this person had something to report about their life going well, I noticed these unpleasant emotions. Like I wasn\u2019t proud of them, that here I was meditating for several years and I was still having all this envy.<\/span><\/p>\n

If I can call this person Buddha Boy, for a moment, Tami, Buddha Boy was someone who can meditate for hours perfectly still. He\u2019s this super athlete. He has two best-selling books. I kept saying, what about me? Why is this person getting all the attention? Can\u2019t the sun shine a little less on him and a little more on me? That\u2019s when I turned to this <\/span>mudita<\/span><\/i>, sympathetic joy practice. The essence of it is wishing that person absolute success, more success. And I was like, that is the craziest thing, wishing him more success.<\/span><\/p>\n

There\u2019s a part of me that wants him to fail a little bit. But I took on the practice, because I knew how much this was costing me, this envy. I did it for a month, and you know what happened? Nothing in a month. Nothing. I felt no change, but I stayed with it. In the second month of doing this, wishing this continued success for him, amplified success, things started to shift. I can say today that I feel happy when Buddha Boy calls me and tells me about another success in his life. The envy in my body has decreased immeasurably.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> OK, Spencer, I want to really get into this for a moment because I think almost all of can relate and can think of someone that we compare ourselves to.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

SS:<\/b> I like that you used that word compare, because I think that\u2019s the generic word for it. We have a lot of comparing minds, right?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Yes. In this case, since we\u2019re talking about the inner mastery of money, we compare our financial situation to their financial situation, and their money seems to be multiplying. OK, so how do I actually do this? I pick the person who, for me, is Buddha Girl or Buddha Boy, or whatever you want to call it. How do I actually take time to wish this person success? What do I do? What am I saying? How am I practicing this?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

SS:<\/b> OK. I invite you to close your eyes and picture this person in your mind\u2019s eye and notice for a moment, just breathe for a moment, notice how you\u2019re feeling, even as we begin this exercise. Then as you\u2019re picturing this person, say to this person, either silently or semi-audibly, \u201cI wish you unlimited success. May you flourish in all ways. May your happiness continue and increase.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> All right. Let\u2019s just pretend that when we say inside, \u201cI wish you unlimited success,\u201d we hear a little smarmy voice that says, \u201cNo, I don\u2019t.\u201d What do we do then?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

SS:<\/b> Well, that\u2019s what I … For a month, Tami, nothing happened with this practice with me. Some days it actually, just like you\u2019re saying, it got worse. I became even more aware of this intense envy that I had. I\u2019d say, continue. Just bring constancy to this practice because … That was my experience, is that it took me about six weeks of doing this practice daily. I spent about five minutes a day on it daily for about six weeks until I started to see that structure of envy start to fall apart, that structure of the comparing mind fall apart.<\/span><\/p>\n

To me, the ability to enjoy another person\u2019s success, particularly in the business world, is such a liberating and powerful thing, because if you can do that, you\u2019re not wasting energy in this comparing mind. You\u2019re not wasting energy with envy. You\u2019re enjoying this person\u2019s success, and that joy can actually feed you. It feeds your creativity. And you\u2019re also able to call that Buddha Boy person and say, \u201cHey, just wanted to pass something by.\u201d You\u2019re able to connect with that person and get ideas from that person, learn from that person.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> OK. When the practitioner says these phrases\u2014\u201cI wish you unlimited success\u201d\u2014is that accompanied by visualizing, seeing images of the person on the cover of the <\/span>New York Times<\/span><\/i> or whatever it might be?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

SS:<\/b> That\u2019s a little bit of what I did, yes. I would see this person … Yes, I\u2019d see the person with their bestselling book. I\u2019d see the person sitting absolutely still in meditation, being this super marathon athlete\u2014I\u2019d see all that in my eyes. I think the biggest thing was really having this earnestness about it. It\u2019s really like practice till you make it with this. I really dedicated myself because … I mean, this is where, you had said earlier, what is ever going to bring us to this place of enough?<\/span><\/p>\n

Well, what brings us off into these places of letting go of envy or getting to this place of enough is pain. It\u2019s like we get to this place where we\u2019re not satisfied anymore with how much it\u2019s costing us to be in envy, how much it\u2019s costing us to be in the sense of lack or scarcity, which is the opposite of enough. We\u2019re in that place of fear and scarcity. That doesn\u2019t often bode well for success in the world or happiness in the world.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> All right, now, you briefly mentioned equanimity as another one of these immeasurables, this terrific ocean of being able to go with the ups and downs of our economic life. What do you suggest for someone who says, \u201cI\u2019m fine with the ups, but I\u2019m not so good with the downs. How do I cultivate equanimity during a down cycle?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

SS:<\/b> Well, one is to recognize that there are down cycles. I think some of us have this idea that if we, like I said earlier, if we\u2019re really good humans, we won\u2019t have down cycles. I think the other thing is, let\u2019s work on these fixed beliefs. I think some of the fixed beliefs, including maybe the belief that it should all go well, is often keeping us. Or maybe there\u2019s some other belief that we should always be successful. I inherited a little bit of that kind of belief. And then it\u2019s also this, having … I think some of our meditation practices are really powerful for working with resilience, for feeling the pain, the anxiety that accompanies a downturn.<\/span><\/p>\n

Instead of pushing it aside, actually opening to it. I don\u2019t know if you\u2019re familiar with the RAIN practice, but that\u2019s something I do, where that R stands for recognize in RAIN, of recognizing the pain, the anxiety in the body when there\u2019s a downturn. Then the A is allowing even that pain or anxiety to amplify in the body. Then the I is investigating: What is this about? Getting really curious, like a curious, kind scientist. Then the last step in RAIN is N, nurturing, telling yourself that I believe in you, I love you, I care for you. You\u2019re going to get through this downturn. That\u2019s been a very powerful exercise for me as well with cultivating equanimity.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> OK. Let\u2019s make it a little grittier, Spencer. Let\u2019s say someone is in some kind of downturn, like they lost their job or something like that, and they just have a lot of fear. There\u2019s a lot of fear, and listening to an inspiring talk like this, and it\u2019s barely penetrating the fear that they feel, the survival-level fear, meaning it\u2019s just what comes up. Even if they have savings or whatever, they\u2019re still … You know what I\u2019m saying? It\u2019s like, this is absolutely terrible. I am terrified. How would you apply, whether it\u2019s the RAIN practice or this teaching of equanimity, how would you help someone in that state?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

SS:<\/b> Who\u2019s absolutely terrified?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Yes, they\u2019re afraid.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

SS:<\/b> Yes. I would say take a money breath. That\u2019s what I would say. Money breath is … Actually, the <\/span>Wall Street Journal<\/span><\/i> did publish my money breath on the front page a while ago, which I thought was really amusing, that they took that. But the money breath is about … It\u2019s about getting oxygen into the body, because when we\u2019re in that fear-fight place, that fight-flight space, there\u2019s not a lot of oxygen coming to the body. I came up with this idea of the money breath of taking an inhale, inhaling through the nose, and then exhaling through the mouth and making the exhale twice as long as the inhale.<\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019d probably be the first thing I do, is start to oxygenate the body, because you\u2019re operating on fear. The next thing I would do is start to look at some of your fixed beliefs. We can do that if you like, Tami, we can do a little practice with fixed beliefs.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Yes, let\u2019s do it.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

SS:<\/b> Because there\u2019s definitely a fixed belief probably happening. When we\u2019re in that really terrified place, we might have a belief like it\u2019s over, I\u2019m never going to be successful. This is the way life is going to be. I was handed bad cards around money. The first thing we\u2019ll do is to think about: What is circulating in your mind? What circulates in your mind around money? What beliefs? Maybe it\u2019s a belief that I\u2019m never going to be good with money. What are those unproductive, often negative, critical beliefs that we have around money? Or maybe not critical, but just any belief that you feel you cling to? It\u2019s a belief that circulates in your mind often around money.<\/span><\/p>\n

It could be that you should only buy a house or you should only rent. You might also think back to your childhood, because often, we have this money initiation. Think back to a message that you received from your caregivers, from family members, maybe from other friends, or the culture around money. I mean, for me, when I was eight years old, I asked my father, \u201cHow much money do you make?\u201d And he gave me a stare. He never answered my question, but that stare spoke volumes. It told me that you should never, ever talk about money. It also told me that money must be the most important thing in the world.<\/span><\/p>\n

Travel back to childhood for a moment and see if you can find a prominent belief that you acquired. Just breathe into that, recognize that belief, and recognize the associated emotions around that belief, and maybe even the sensations, the tension in the body that accompanies that belief. Now that you\u2019re clear on this belief, that it\u2019s probably been guiding a lot of your money behavior, guiding maybe the way you spend, the way you save, the way you are willing or not willing to talk about money, whether you\u2019re able to talk about your fees in the business world, whether you\u2019re able to ask for a raise. How you borrow money. I mean, it might … These beliefs often affect every aspect of our money life and our business life.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

All right. Now what I\u2019d like you to do is, as you\u2019re remembering the story, I invite you to become the awareness of the story, to become the witness. So, bringing your adult self into this story. You\u2019re remembering the story from maybe when you were five years old, ten years old, 12 years old, and you\u2019re seeing this younger version of yourself. Then you, as the adult, are outside witnessing. You\u2019re the awareness, you\u2019re the witness to what\u2019s happening, and seeing this whole scene where you got this message.<\/span><\/p>\n

Maybe it could have been something less dramatic than what I received. I received this in my father not answering my question, when I asked him how much money you make. It could have been, in many households, like your family just didn\u2019t discuss money, but it was obvious that there was tension around money, but everyone was numb around it.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

So, witnessing that, I invite you to open your heart and offer compassion for this younger version of yourself, that this younger version just happened to receive this message and it wasn\u2019t their fault. That they were just in the room, they didn\u2019t know anything about money and they somehow inferred this belief that I\u2019ll never be good with money or money is the most important thing in the world. Offering compassion to this younger version of yourself.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

And now also seeing the adults in this scene and offering compassion for them as well, and recognizing that they have their own money histories. Consider the possibility that the adults intended to convey something positive, or were trying to protect you in some way, or they were dealing with their own money trauma from their childhoods. I invite you to imagine this adult saying or doing the opposite, or something very different from what they said or did. Just trying this on, we\u2019re in the sandbox, we\u2019re playing here together, just imagine this adult saying or doing the opposite, or something very different from what they said or did. And be aware of how you feel in the body with witnessing that, hearing that, getting a very different message with money. We know, of course this is feasible, because often our sibling has got completely different messages about what we grew up with about money, about many things.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

The question now is, who would you be if you received this new message around money growing up? Who would you be? Can also put it in the present tense: Who are you with this new message around money? Just let yourself feel that. You might even imagine how that would show up for you, how you might be different in the business world, how you might be different with your personal finances. And then letting go of this scene and start to travel back to this moment and acknowledge what\u2019s arising for you as you start to travel back to this present moment. Staying with yourself, even as you begin to open your eyes and connect with the world around you.<\/span><\/p>\n

This is where often, in the workshop, Tami, where I\u2019ll have people go straight to journaling and write down the insights that they gained from doing this reframe.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Well, let me ask you a question, Spencer, because a couple of times you\u2019ve referred to doing this in the context of being a businessperson as well. As we were doing the exercise and I was hearing you say that, one of the thoughts that occurred to me, I\u2019m now a businessperson who\u2019s wishing my competitors unlimited success, I\u2019m spending time in my meditation practice wishing them unlimited success, and also I\u2019m rescripting some of my early money memories, so I\u2019m not going to be as driven to be like success, success, success. I\u2019m going to be enjoying the flow of my life more. The question I have for you is: Am I going to be less or more successful running a company?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

SS:<\/b> Well, I think the answer from Buddhism is that, with equanimity, with sympathetic joy, with compassion, self-compassion and compassion for others, with kindness towards oneself and others, with generosity, I mean, all of those things put one in an elevated state of being. These are the four emotions in Buddhism. In that elevated state of being, I can\u2019t help but imagine that you will be more successful. I have felt more successful as a result of these practices.<\/span><\/p>\n

Now, maybe that\u2019s going to lead to one day realizing that you have enough and taking your company from a billion in revenues to two billion is not necessary. That it\u2019s enough and you can enjoy it, and there\u2019s no there, there. But I think, if anything, you\u2019re going to be much more in the flow. We all are very attracted to people who are in that ease and flow, or aren\u2019t in that place of desperation or scarcity. I mean, who\u2019s going to get the business when you\u2019re selling in the business world. Often, we\u2019re always, all of us are in somewhat of a sales role, especially if we have our own businesses. But even if not, we\u2019re sort of, almost\u2014even teachers are in some ways selling. Who gets the opportunity, the person who\u2019s desperate and clinging for it or the person who\u2019s in that place of equanimity, who\u2019s radiating generosity and sympathetic joy?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Very well said. Now, you mentioned generosity, cultivating. How do we do that? What\u2019s the actual practice for doing that? Obviously it involves giving some of our money away.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

SS:<\/b> Well, not necessarily. I mean, there\u2019s certainly the example of some people like Andrew Carnegie, who created the public library system. All around the world, he funded libraries. So, you can do some wonderful things with money, with generosity, but you can also give away your time. Give your time, resources, skills to others as well. The effects are similar. I also say that with, even if you are going to give money, you don\u2019t have to give as much as Andrew Carnegie gave, or as much as Warren Buffett gives.<\/span><\/p>\n

Giving even a dollar a month, I think you\u2019re still telling the brain that you have enough, and it\u2019s another way of getting to enough\u2014 by cultivating generosity\u2014because you\u2019re telling yourself, I must have enough. The brain is thinking, well, I must have enough because this person is giving something away. Those are a couple of ways in the … The other thing about generosity, it really comes from this place, like I said, of enoughness. So doing a gratitude practice, doing an appreciation practice for what you have is a very powerful way to cultivate generosity.<\/span><\/p>\n

Often, we\u2019re in this place of like, it\u2019s so easy to get new things on Amazon, and what about appreciating what we have? That puts me in a place of generosity, in a place of less … I\u2019m not feeling as much scarcity when I\u2019m validating and having gratitude for all the abundance that\u2019s in my life, all the good things that are in my life\u2014non-material, material.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> OK. We\u2019ve talked about some different emotional aspects related to starting to be on a path, let\u2019s just say, of the mastery, the inner mastery of money. What about someone whose issues relate to spending, they overspend? How can the work you\u2019ve done with the dharma of money help someone who has a spending challenge?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

SS:<\/b> Yes. Well, I think it\u2019s … The spending, what\u2019s at the root of the spending? Is there … It could be spending money to avoid feeling the pain of my life, and the spending can be this cover up for that. Because it\u2019s so easy to spend money today, and the culture is all about \u201cbuy something and you\u2019ll feel better.\u201d I think, again, it\u2019s this practice of ever appreciating what you have. There\u2019s even the idea of taking something that you value, putting it in a closet or your garage, putting a date on your calendar to retrieve it in three months.<\/span><\/p>\n

You will value that object so much more that you\u2019ve been without. I would start to look at: How are you getting value from that spending? And really look at your priorities and what\u2019s giving you real value and what feels like just autopilot spending? Then I\u2019d start to slow down the spending. I\u2019d start to really watch yourself as you\u2019re spending and use this as a meditation practice. Like every time you spend, slow it down. What\u2019s really happening? What\u2019s driving you to hand over that credit card? An astic teacher of mine once said that the moment of greatest happiness is the moment right before we type in our credit card on the screen or hand over our card.<\/span><\/p>\n

Once you\u2019ve given the card and get the item, our happiness starts to decrease. Start to notice all of this. I think it also comes back to this idea of this self-worth and net worth. It\u2019s recognizing how incredibly wealthy you are, that there\u2019s no comparison between anything you can have or any amount of money you can earn and who you are. I mean, I\u2019ve often asked the question, would you prefer a billion dollars and one additional health challenge or your current life? I\u2019ve had very few people who\u2019ve taken the billion dollars and one additional health challenge, even a modest health challenge.<\/span><\/p>\n

There obviously is so much value that we\u2019re not recognizing in ourselves, and we need to get to that place, recognize the priceless nature of our own beings. I think maybe that spending will start to dampen. The need to spend will start to dampen.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> One thing I\u2019ve heard you teach on that I think is really useful, and I wonder if you can describe it to our listeners, is this idea of finding someone in your life who could be a money ally for you and help you be sane when it comes to money. Tell me how I find a good money ally and make sure it is someone who\u2019s going to help me be sane.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

SS:<\/b> Yea. A lot of my work, Tami, is about helping us get to this place of being able to access our wisdom. I mean, often I\u2019ve said that money is this distinct field where all of us have the ability to be really successful. It\u2019s really different from the world of like becoming a surgeon, [which] takes a decade or more. Becoming a great violinist takes decades, but becoming really good with money, we can do that in weeks. So much of it is about common sense. So it\u2019s like, how do we access our common sense and let go of the emotional cobwebs that are keeping us from being able to access that?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Well, just to pause right there, Spencer, when you said we can become really good with money in a matter of a couple of weeks, I could certainly hear inside my head plenty of people saying something like, \u201cSay what? I\u2019ve been working for decades to become even reasonable with money, how I handle my investments, saving, finding the right balance with how much I should give away, working out stuff with my spouse so that we\u2019re on the same page with money, etcetera, and you\u2019re telling me I can actually figure this out in a few weeks? No, I don\u2019t believe you.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

SS:<\/b> Yes. Well, it\u2019s not that complicated. And I\u2019ve seen people who know very little about money, and like I said, I\u2019ve seen people who know everything about money, who can handle their finances intelligently, because they\u2019re just letting their emotions override all their decisions. It really comes down to common sense. That wisdom is in each of us with money. There are some very simple rules to follow with money, which we can all gain access to. I mean, they\u2019re all over the internet. There\u2019s just some [inaudible], like you spend less than you earn. If you\u2019re going to invest, you spread it out into many things.<\/span><\/p>\n

But a lot of us don\u2019t follow these simple rules. We put a lot on credit cards. We concentrate our investments in just a few things. A lot of this work is designed to see if we can … To settle those … To dissolve some of the fixed beliefs that we have, and to settle some of the emotions we have around money so that we can come to this place, a centered place, and access our wisdom.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

And you\u2019re mentioning this money ally, that this is an additional resource. I think it\u2019s very helpful. I have a money ally in my life. I have a professional money ally, so you can hire a professional advisor. Assuming that person has some awareness of some of this inner work of money, which I think is really the critical work. And it could also be a nonprofessional. It could be a friend, not a best friend, preferably someone who doesn\u2019t live in your area, but someone you trust, someone who has common sense. Doesn\u2019t need to be someone who has years of financial experience, or is even in the financial industry in any way, but just someone who has common sense who you trust, and you can do this trade with each other. Many, many people from my workshops have been doing this for years.<\/span><\/p>\n

I have one couple that\u2019s been doing it with another couple. They\u2019re on like their 12th year of having regular, periodic check-ins with the other couple about, hey, we\u2019re about to buy a house, here\u2019s our situation, are we crazy? Those kinds of check-ins are so valuable because of the stigma around money, because it\u2019s such this taboo topic we\u2019re often told, like I was, don\u2019t talk about money. We keep it private, and that privacy leads to us doing unhelpful things, unwise things with money. I mean, I can think back to my life, Tami, of some of the crazy investments I\u2019ve made in my life. I didn\u2019t want to tell anyone about them because I knew they were crazy, and I didn\u2019t want anyone to talk me out of them.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> It\u2019s interesting that you mention money as a taboo topic because on the one hand, it\u2019s something people talk about a lot, a lot. They talk about their concerns, what they\u2019re doing, this, that, but yet, it\u2019s also really taboo to share our deep feelings and our deep fears around money. I wonder, what is the way to bring money out of this taboo world, make it normal, and share about it in a way that\u2019s going to be productive, that\u2019s helpful, where we can learn from each other?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

SS:<\/b> Yes. Well, A, it\u2019s recognizing that we have a predisposition to not talk about it and certainly not talk about it consciously, with intention, with people who are going to be nonjudgmental and listen in a very receptive way. And that\u2019s what my workshops are about. I mean, there\u2019s also things like Underearners Anonymous, Spenders Anonymous. I think those are also very viable places where one could have a conscious conversation around money\u2014and then this money ally possibility. But I think it\u2019s starting to investigate what\u2019s in that submerged iceberg, your beliefs. A lot of women take my workshop because they complain about, they feel like they\u2019ve always been underearning.<\/span><\/p>\n

When they start to investigate the beliefs that have supported that underearning, just that awareness starts to break down the rigidity of those beliefs, and they gain some comfort in being able to say, \u201cHey, here are my fees,\u201d and not being shy about sharing those fees. I think it\u2019s this recognizing of, and discussing in safe environments, our money tendencies. With business partners, there\u2019s another opportunity, or a romantic partner, is to at least know, what\u2019s the money tendency of your business partner and yourself? Is that person more risk averse, less risk averse? Is that person more likely to want to spend a lot or save a lot? I think those are important things to know going into a business relationship.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Now, let me ask you a question, Spencer, because you mentioned that there are many women who attend your workshops, who identify as underearners. What is the fixed belief under that that\u2019s keeping those women from being able to confidently earn the kind of money that would be industry standard for the quality of their work?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

SS:<\/b> Yes, I think some of the beliefs are from our culture. I mean, it\u2019s just been conditioned. I don\u2019t deserve money, I don\u2019t deserve to earn a lot of money. I\u2019m not good with money. I mean, I\u2019ve heard from so many women who say that my brother got a financial education from my parents, but I didn\u2019t. I was left out of that. Even younger people today tell me, people in their 20s and 30s will sometimes share that with me, that there\u2019s this bias around money that a lot of us carry. Breaking down those beliefs, seeing that those beliefs are not really true, that it\u2019s just a belief. When they start to feel the pain underneath those beliefs and really meet them instead of just reacting to those beliefs, something softens. The grip loosens.<\/span><\/p>\n

Like the Buddha talked about, when we become less attached to our beliefs, it\u2019s sort of game over. Our life is different. We\u2019re liberated. We start to be liberated from the confines of that belief and we\u2019re able to approach an earning conversation, a business conversation in a new way without the backpack, that heavy backpack of, \u201cI don\u2019t deserve money.\u201d Maybe we still have that awareness of that belief, but it\u2019s no longer driving us.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> I\u2019m so happy, Spencer, that you\u2019re going to be bringing your work with the inner mastery of money, the dharma of money to the <\/span>Inner MBA<\/span><\/i>. I want to ask you a couple of questions that I\u2019ve been hearing from people who are currently in the <\/span>Inner MBA<\/span><\/i> program. One of the questions that I have been hearing from a lot of people is that I\u2019m in transition, I want to do more purposeful work in the world. Work that\u2019s more aligned with who I really am. I\u2019ve been doing this work because it makes me money. It\u2019s not really what I want to be doing, but I\u2019m scared to make that shift. What would you say to that person in terms of engaging in purposeful work, but I won\u2019t make as much money?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

SS:<\/b> Yes. I\u2019d say, first of all, we\u2019re so drawn to being vague about our money. The first thing is know the truth, know your numbers. Know what does it cost you to live your life in the current way? Maybe what would it cost you to live your life if you had a job that you were totally aligned with? Maybe it would cost less. Maybe with all the travel that your current job requires, it\u2019s like, you need so many massages to get by. Do those columns so you know the numbers, because maybe in this new career, you don\u2019t need the kind of money you previously did.<\/span><\/p>\n

I think the other part of it is to recognize, what\u2019s really important? There\u2019s been all these studies done on money, and usually the studies come out with somewhere around $75,000, or $100,000 of income\u2014once we get to those levels, our happiness rises up to those levels, but beyond that, our happiness tends to plateau. Recognizing that and seeing, what actually gives you joy in your life? I would bet that there\u2019s a lot of things that are giving us joy that don\u2019t require much or any money. I think that those can help alleviate the anxiety.<\/span><\/p>\n

I think I\u2019d start also gaining some data, like talking to people who have made a lot of money and ask them like, what has all this money done for you? Or ask somebody who\u2019s given up that fast track and ask them, do you have any regrets about not having as much money as you could have had? What I\u2019m sort of pointing to is, instead of staying in the head with anxiety, getting out there and taking action and really investigating\u2014what might happen if you took this other career path?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> OK. Here\u2019s another question that I think a lot of people are grappling with in the <\/span>Inner MBA<\/span><\/i>, people who got a traditional business degree\u2014and you\u2019ve referenced a couple of times your MBA from Wharton\u2014a degree, and this is how you do things. This is how you negotiate a deal so that you can emerge successful from the negotiation. Now they\u2019re getting deeply immersed in an <\/span>Inner MBA<\/span><\/i>, where they\u2019re learning what it means to recognize our inherent interdependence with each other. They\u2019re trying to put all this together, how do I function as this new kind of businessperson? I\u2019m curious just what some of your comments might be about that.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

SS:<\/b> Yes. A new kind of businessperson who has respect for others and is connected to others, who\u2019s ethical, is that what you\u2019re pointing to?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Yes. Really, we\u2019re going to come through this together on the other side\u2014I\u2019m not negotiating against you, but we\u2019re going to figure this out together. And the sense of almost like my conventional education and these new wisdom realizations are in conflict. I feel like I\u2019m getting rewired. I don\u2019t know how to operate anymore.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

SS:<\/b> Yes. The MBA I received was definitely an outer MBA and there were some useful things. I\u2019m not going to completely put that MBA down, but it was, in some ways, it didn\u2019t really produce my success. It didn\u2019t really produce the happiness that I have in my life, the equanimity, the resilience that I have in my life, the skills that one really needs to be successful. I mean, this is going back for a moment to this last question, that when people say to me, I\u2019m going to earn less in the new career\u2014how do you know that? Because you might work longer. Because I know so many people have burnt out of careers. Ten years making 3X versus 30 years making 2X might be a lot more money, right?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Good point.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

SS:<\/b> Yes. I would say, I think the whole world, I mean, my company is a big corporation, the whole world is recognizing that it\u2019s not all about money, and that your sustainability of being able to sustain yourself in the working world and sustain your happiness and your well-being, in some ways, depend on this inner landscape. That\u2019s why I think I\u2019m also so drawn to this program, the <\/span>Inner MBA<\/span><\/i> program, because it\u2019s really what is going to produce this inner success for us. I believe it actually produces outer success too.<\/span><\/p>\n

We have to be at our best creative selves. When you\u2019re, like you said earlier, you said, are you really going to wish success for your competitors? It\u2019s like, absolutely. Absolutely, because I need to keep reinventing things and coming up with creative ideas. The world is changing so fast. I mean, it\u2019s permanent, it\u2019s here to stay, even though we prefer otherwise sometimes. Working on our fixed beliefs, coming to this place of enough, letting go of envy, pointing ourselves more and more to this present moment instead of being so focused on the future, all of this helps us in the business world\u2014helps us be more creative, helps us attract the best people. I mean, we want people who are fun to work with, who are creative and going to love working with us. How do we cultivate that kind of environment? I think it\u2019s by first, being that leader who\u2019s cultivated the kind of landscape that\u2019s going to track these amazing people.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> OK. I have to ask you this other question about this \u201cenough\u201d point, because I think a lot of times people think to themselves, there\u2019s a number that I need. There\u2019s this number that I need. I need to bank X amount of money. It\u2019s some number so that they can retire and they never have to work again, and dah, dah, dah. What do you think about that? Is that the right calculation that people should go through to figure out what their enough point is? Is that what you did to help yourself relax with enough?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

SS:<\/b> Yes. First of all, like I said earlier, there\u2019s 10 to 15 percent of our population who literally doesn\u2019t have enough, and there\u2019s a huge, I think, a huge transformation that would take place in this country if those people had their basic needs met. For the rest of us, and for myself, there\u2019ve been all these studies that recognize that the $75,000 to $100,000 level is enough. That\u2019s one data point. But the other thing is, what I\u2019ve seen is often, if we\u2019re thinking in terms of finding that number, it\u2019s very easy for the mind to keep saying, well, wait a second, what if I need a new brain? A new brain might cost a billion dollars.<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s never enough. I contrast often John Rockefeller with Chuck Feeney. Chuck Feeney earned $8 billion, and he gave away nearly everything. He kept 2 million of the 8 billion. So, he kept less than one percent of his wealth, does not own a house in San Francisco\u2014rents\u2014does not own a car. He said, that\u2019s enough. What he wanted was engagement with the world. That\u2019s what gave him wealth, was engagement with all of his philanthropic work, and I think that\u2019s where we have to come to is, what is going to give you this power in life? What\u2019s going to make you feel like you\u2019re giving your gifts to the world, that you\u2019re living your best life?<\/span><\/p>\n

What\u2019s going to help you do that, and just having a storage room of money often does the opposite. The more money we store, the more we tend to kind of relapse into fear and scarcity. There\u2019s a balance here. I\u2019m not saying that one shouldn\u2019t have savings, but I think a lot of us tend to overdo that sense of like, well, you can never be secure. You can never have enough, which is a lot of the messages that my parents gave me. I think it\u2019s eventually just dropping in and saying, hey, I have enough, I\u2019m going to continue saving or doing whatever I feel is really right to do, but start to operate as if you have enough money, you have enough time.<\/span><\/p>\n

I\u2019ve often said don\u2019t, instead of telling people, I\u2019m totally swamped, more than full, tell people that you\u2019re feeling spacious. Practice till you make it with that. But just turning around these strong cultural conditioning that there\u2019s always scarcity and you can never actually arrive.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Beautiful. I\u2019ve been talking with Spencer Sherman with Sounds True. He\u2019ll be offering a new Conscious Business Accelerator as part of the <\/span>Inner MBA<\/span><\/i> program on \u201cThe Inner Mastery of Money.\u201d The <\/span>Inner MBA<\/span><\/i> is a nine-month immersion training program that Sounds True\u2019s created in partnership with LinkedIn, Wisdom 2.0, and a division of NYU called MindfulNYU that gives certificates of completion to participants when they graduate from the nine-month program. You can learn more at InnerMBAProgram.com. Spencer, I\u2019m so glad you\u2019re bringing your wisdom about money to the <\/span>Inner MBA<\/span><\/i>. Thank you.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

SS:<\/b> I\u2019m very thrilled to be part of this program. To me, it\u2019s about getting an <\/span>Inner MBA<\/span><\/i>, not an outer MBA.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Thank you for listening to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>. You can read a full transcript of today\u2019s interview at SoundsTrue.com\/podcast. If you\u2019re interested, hit the subscribe button in your podcast app, and also if you feel inspired, head to iTunes and leave <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i> a review. I love getting your feedback, being in connection with you, and learning how we can continue to evolve and improve our program. Working together, I believe we can create a kinder and wiser world. SoundsTrue.com: waking up the world.<\/span><\/p>\n

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