{"id":9018,"date":"2021-04-27T22:59:51","date_gmt":"2021-04-27T22:59:51","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?post_type=transcript&p=9018"},"modified":"2021-04-27T22:59:51","modified_gmt":"2021-04-27T22:59:51","slug":"are-you-feeling-connected-right-now","status":"publish","type":"transcript","link":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/are-you-feeling-connected-right-now\/","title":{"rendered":"Are You Feeling Connected Right Now?"},"content":{"rendered":"
\"image_print\"Print Transcript<\/span><\/a><\/div>

Tam Simon:<\/b> Welcome to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>, produced by Sounds True. My name is Tami Simon, I\u2019m the founder of Sounds True. I\u2019d love to take a moment to introduce you to the new Sounds True Foundation. The Sounds True Foundation is dedicated to creating a wiser and kinder world by making transformational education widely available. We want everyone to have access to transformational tools such as mindfulness, emotional awareness, and self-compassion regardless of financial, social, or physical challenges. The Sounds True Foundation is a nonprofit dedicated to providing these transformational tools to communities in need, including at-risk youth, prisoners, veterans, and those in developing countries. If you\u2019d like to learn more or feel inspired to become a supporter, please visit SoundsTrueFoundation.org.<\/span><\/p>\n

You\u2019re listening to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>. Today my guest is Dr. Kristine Klussman. Kristine is a Harvard-trained, positive health, psychology researcher, clinician, and community organizer dedicated to helping individuals more effectively solve societal problems by emphasizing personal accountability and transformation. She\u2019s the founder of the Purpose Project as well as its research on a connection lab, a nonprofit think tank, committed to the scientific research, exploration, education, and practice of authentic connection. With Sounds True, Kristine Klussman has written a beautiful new book called <\/span>Connection: How to Find the Life You\u2019re Looking for in the Life You Have<\/span><\/i>. Kristine is remarkably soft-spoken, practical, and generous. Take a listen. Here\u2019s my conversation with Kristine Klussman.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Kristine, as the founder of the Purpose Project, as well as its research arm, Connection Lab, let\u2019s start by having our listeners learn a little bit about what is the Purpose Project. And then we\u2019ll also talk some about the research you conduct at the Connection Lab. But let\u2019s start with the Purpose Project. What is it?<\/span><\/p>\n

Kristine Klussman:<\/b> Sure. Well, the Purpose Project is actually all about the research. It really is a think tank more or less, and a place where my colleagues and I, who are interested in looking at these topics of meaning and values and how to live our best life, come together. We\u2019re focused on just trying to put out research that we find really important, in a way [where] we\u2019re not as constrained by academic institutions, where we also get to take that research, and the results of it, and build it into programs or writings or educational offerings for the community.<\/span><\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> By way of example, help me understand a piece of research you conducted, and what the takeaways were from it.<\/span><\/p>\n

KK:<\/b> Yes, sure. For instance, one of the studies that actually I was just looking at this morning, was about the relationship between mindfulness, well-being, flourishing, and connection. One of the takeaways from that study is that the three, they all affect each other. That mindfulness in fact, increases our sense of being connected to ourselves, which therein increases our sense of well-being and even our sense of flourishing. We\u2019re looking at what comes first\u2014the chicken or the egg? Is it enough just to be mindful? Or where do we start with all of these well-being practices? How does being connected to ourselves fit in the mix? That\u2019s what we\u2019re honing in on: how does mindfulness interact with self-connection? How does self-connection interact with all of these different markers of well-being?<\/span><\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Now Kristine, you\u2019ve developed something that you write about in your new book, <\/span>Connection<\/span><\/i>, called connection theory\u2014a new psychological approach to well-being. What is connection theory?<\/span><\/p>\n

KK:<\/b> Thanks for asking. It\u2019s a repackaging of everything that we know that works best. I\u2019m big into trying to look through a holistic lens\u2014or I\u2019ve always craved meta theories when I was in my graduate school program. Even throughout this whole positive psychology revolution\u2014which I\u2019ve just been consuming and obsessed with and a part of\u2014I love all the individual tools that we know about gratitude practice and forgiveness practice and self-compassion and mindfulness. But what it has left me with is a sense of just this bulging tool bag. Personally, I\u2019m not good at remembering all of those things, especially in any given day or week, what to implement or to keep practicing.<\/span><\/p>\n

This is my attempt at coming up with one thing, one frame, one lens to look through, so that I can ask myself, and help my clients look at, \u201cWhen I\u2019m not right with myself or with the world, I can ask myself this question: \u2018Am I feeling connected to myself?\u2019 Yes, or no? And if not, what\u2019s blocking that connection? Is it that I need to move my body? Is it that I need to deliver an undelivered communication? Is it that I need to just tune into the present moment? Do I need to practice some forgiveness?\u201d It\u2019s a way to access [\u2026] and organize all of those tools, but under one umbrella that can be your doorway, so to speak.<\/span><\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> You describe asking this question of ourselves\u2014”Am I feeling connected to myself right now?\u201d\u2014as the cornerstone technique that you offer in connection theory. Cornerstone technique\u2014”Am I feeling connected to myself right now?\u201d So imagine someone hears that question. And they think, \u201cI don\u2019t know, am I feeling connected right now? I don\u2019t know.\u201d What does that even mean? So, let\u2019s work with it a little bit. I\u2019m going to throw at you, Kristine, what I think some of the possible responses are when people work with this. Because it\u2019s a really profound question. I\u2019m starting to feel into all of its various applications. But I am going to be a little bit devilish here. \u201cAm I feeling connected to myself right now? I have no idea.\u201d What would you say to that person?<\/span><\/p>\n

KK:<\/b> I love that answer. That\u2019s exactly where I started with it. That\u2019s how I felt when I first started asking that question. I think that what I like to say in the beginning to people is that feeling your way into whether or not you\u2019re connected is to just simply tune into \u201cAm I feeling a sense of ease? Or unease?\u201d That can be anywhere in your body and your mind. Just are you feeling\u2014if you want to be literal about the word\u2014are you feeling really in tune with what it is that you\u2019re doing? Who it is that you\u2019re with? If I asked my\u2014it depends where you\u2019re asking yourself that question. But if I asked that question, and I\u2019m having lunch with someone, I think \u201cAm I really here right now? Or am I thinking about the million things that I need to do? Am I listening to this person? Am I really tuning into the closeness between us? And am I just 100 percent in my body with this experience?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

So it\u2019s about being present, and awake and aware, but also intentional, and just aligned with what you\u2019re doing? Is what you\u2019re doing right now what you want to be doing? Are you giving yourself to that? That\u2019s one way into the sense of \u201cAm I feeling connected?\u201d I use it also when I\u2019m when I\u2019m with my kids, even when I\u2019m doing certain activities like\u2014it can be even washing dishes. It doesn\u2019t have to be anything extraordinary. But it\u2019s really just trying to play with, and amplify I think what we\u2019re used to thinking of as mindfulness, and just being present with what\u2019s happening, but also being really in tune with \u201cHow is this consistent with my values? How is this aligned with what I deeply care about?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

It takes it a step farther than mindfulness. It\u2019s asking you, first of all, are you even awake? That\u2019s the very first question. \u201cAnd am I connected?\u201d Are you conscious of what you\u2019re doing? And can you tune into a sense of intentionality to what you\u2019re putting your energy towards? And then we unfold it and unpack it from there.<\/span><\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Let\u2019s keep going with some of these examples. I think it\u2019s really useful. So, you\u2019re with your kids, and you ask yourself, \u201cAm I feeling connected to myself right now?\u201d And let\u2019s say your kids are doing something that you have absolutely no interest in. Yet you\u2019re with them and you don\u2019t feel particularly connected. How then do you work with connection theory to become more connected and increase your sense of well-being? Maybe you could give us an actual example from your life.<\/span><\/p>\n

KK:<\/b> Sure. yes, just last night that happened to me with the kids. We were all in our respective rooms doing our own thing, not hanging out at all. I woke up from what I was doing in my emails for just a second, and noticed that we weren\u2019t together, but being together is not a prerequisite of connection. I asked myself, \u201cWhat am I doing right now? Is this what I want to be doing? Do I want to be doing my emails? Do I feel connected to my intention of how I want to be spending my time this evening?\u201d But also, \u201cWhat\u2019s the feeling in our household? Are we numbing ourselves? And just wiling away the time mindlessly? Or does this feel OK?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

The answer that I came up with was, \u201cActually this is really nice. There\u2019s a nice comfortable, warm cohabitating feeling with the house. We\u2019ve all interacted a lot recently, even just an hour or so ago. And now everybody\u2019s just happily doing their own thing.\u201d My other son was playing his guitar in the next room, and my older son was doing his homework. I felt just a warm sense of\u2014I don\u2019t want to say invisible connection to them\u2014but contentedness within myself. I felt like, \u201cYep, this moment feels as it should be, and I\u2019m good with it.\u201d The connection part for me was just being awake and asking myself that question, and having the opportunity to course correct. If for instance, we hadn\u2019t talked all day, or if it didn\u2019t feel right that we were all holing up in our rooms for far too long, then maybe it would be an opportunity for me to say, \u201cLet me see if I can drum up a little more connection here.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Connection isn\u2019t just about whether or not I\u2019m going to open my door and talk to the boys or we\u2019re going to get together. It\u2019s first and foremost about connecting to myself, and just for checking in and doing an inventory for a split second and saying, \u201cAre my actions right now aligned with my highest values and priorities?\u201d No big deal. I don\u2019t put a ton of thought into it. It just\u2014does this feel right? Right now?<\/span><\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> OK, so let\u2019s say there\u2019s a moment in time and you say, \u201cAm I feeling connected to myself right now?\u201d and the answer you get is, \u201cI feel like zoning out right now, I don\u2019t feel like being connected. I feel like turning on some of that television series that\u2014I think I\u2019m in season seven, episode 99. And I don\u2019t want to ask this question, and I don\u2019t want to be connected.\u201d What do you think about that?<\/span><\/p>\n

KK:<\/b> I love that, because I really do. I live that example so much, and just did the other night. I would call that being connected. That is a moment where you\u2019re connecting, listening to what your deepest need is, or just a true need, and honoring it very intentionally. Then you\u2019re deliciously savoring it in doing it. And that\u2019s perfectly fine, and a great example of being connected to yourself. When you\u2019re not connected to yourself is when you\u2019re doing that a little mindlessly, a little unintentionally. You\u2019re numbing; maybe you\u2019re escaping and you\u2019re losing time, and you wake up from, after three or four episodes with a little bit of a \u201cWhat happened? I didn\u2019t mean to do that.\u201d Maybe in the process, you neglected some other, bigger priorities that you would have liked to have attended to, or that you should have\u2014or that were needing you.<\/span><\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Now you mentioned that connection theory, in some ways takes us even further than mindfulness. What I\u2019m trying to understand is, when somebody is assessing their level of connection in the moment, what underlying skills or capacities do they have to have? Like for example, I\u2019ve done a lot of meditation work, and I\u2019ve done a lot of body scan type practices. So, for me, when I asked myself, \u201cAm I connected?\u201d I\u2019m tuning in at a somatic level. That\u2019s what I\u2019m doing and I\u2019m seeing like, \u201cAm I here? Is there tension in my body?\u201d But do you think\u2014is that a necessary skill to have? To assess our level of connection? Or can I just go and start thinking about it? And just reflect? Will that do the job as well?<\/span><\/p>\n

KK:<\/b> It\u2019s such a good question. I\u2019m really glad you asked that. It\u2019s such a good point. Because I do think it\u2019s amazing, if you have those skills, and you know how to tune in somatically. I think many people don\u2019t, and a lot of us are cut off from the neck down. And you don\u2019t need those skills\u2014it\u2019s a bonus to walk through that doorway of connection. I find that it can be a little bit simpler for people, a little more accessible for people that don\u2019t do meditation or haven\u2019t done somatic work, to simply just be asking themselves this question, \u201cDo I feel close to myself right now? Do I feel in tune with my needs? What am I needing?\u201d And back to this question of ease versus unease. \u201cAm I needing to rest? Am I needing to take care of something that I\u2019ve been avoiding? Where is the unease coming from?\u201d It\u2019s just really asking yourself to wake up for a minute and survey what\u2019s happening, what you\u2019re doing right in the moment, and decide if that feels congruent with your values.<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s great when you can unpack the values part and really know your values and do all the exercises to be more acquainted with that side of yourself. But you really don\u2019t have to. When I first started doing this work [\u2026] I was doing it mostly with my parenting, because I found that I was so often just tuned just elsewhere. When I was with my kids, I was going through the motions. I was dutifully doing everything, but just not really given over to the moment, for lack of a better way to say it. Or really tuning into the joy. When I started, I just would ask myself that question over and over, \u201cAm I connected right now? Why not? What am I doing right now? I\u2019m looking at my phone while my kids are playing Legos. What if I put my phone down and just join in with them a little bit? Do I feel more connected then? Yes.\u201d Just super simple.<\/span><\/p>\n

You don\u2019t even really have to actually know what connection means; you can just have an idea. People can have different ideas of it themselves. But the idea is that it feels better than it does to feel disconnected.<\/span><\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> One of the parts of the book that I\u2019ve really enjoyed reading about, and I thought was really illuminating, had to do with how you can transform and become more connected to things that are perceived as everyday chores. You give a great example of cooking dinner with your kids, that I\u2019d love for you to share, that has to do with pizza night in case you\u2019ve forgotten. I just thought it was a great example. Because I think sometimes whether it\u2019s doing the laundry, or you mentioned washing the dishes, or there\u2019s various times\u2014well how can I be connected? I\u2019m doing this like X, Y, Z thing that I have to do in my life that\u2019s not that interesting.<\/span><\/p>\n

KK:<\/b> Right?<\/span><\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> But you offered some interesting suggestions for how we can change those activities, mundane activities, into connected, meaningful activity. I wonder if you can talk some about that.<\/span><\/p>\n

KK:<\/b> Yes, thanks. No, I love that example about the pizza night. That came about just from me taking a 24-hour inventory of, \u201cDo I feel connected, yes or no? And what are the circumstances?\u201d One of the circumstances I found that was when I\u2019m cooking. I just felt alone while I was doing it, which is fine. But I also felt just like, \u201cI just want to get this over with. How fast can I just slap this together? This is just\u2014” When I checked in about that question, I noticed a sense of unease: I\u2019m not enjoying the activity that much; I\u2019m not hating it but [\u2026] I don\u2019t particularly feel that connected to what I\u2019m making; I don\u2019t really care. I just want to get it\u2014whatever is the path of least resistance, of slap something down.<\/span><\/p>\n

I thought, \u201cWow, that\u2019s a lot of time that I spend every night doing that and being in that state. I don\u2019t get a lot of time with these guys after school.\u201d So, without wanting to make it a Herculean effort, I just thought, \u201cCan we do any better here? Can this become a more meaningful activity?\u201d Meaning, when I start teaching people how to seek out and inject more connection into the equation, meaning is one of the low hanging fruit. If you\u2019re doing something meaningless, turn on your creative brain for, how can I make this act to this mundane activity a little more meaningful?<\/span><\/p>\n

In my case, I decided, \u201cWhat if I brought the kids in here? And got them a bit involved? And what if we made something a little more fun that is more engaging?\u201d Pizza was the thing, and I thought, \u201cThen they can put their own toppings on it.\u201d I was just really amazed, I had some resistance to it at first where I thought, \u201cI\u2019m not trying to be supermom here. The last thing I want to do is set the bar really high for myself.\u201d But I\u2019m at the store anyway, it was just as easy to grab some premade pizza dough, some stuff, it just took a little bit of thought and connecting to my intention of \u201cHow would I like this night to go? What would I like it to feel like?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s just amazing to me how the incremental amount of effort is usually so little compared to the payoff of how much better it feels when you bring that intention to \u201cI want to connect to this experience of making food, to the experience of having the kids in the mix.\u201d They ended up of course loving it. We\u2019re sitting there watching it, waiting for it to rise. Now it\u2019s become this famous little pizza night in our house and just something that\u2019s brought unexpected joy to a situation that was just whatever, kind of joyless. So, to me, I wouldn\u2019t have gotten there if I hadn\u2019t asked myself that question, and if the connection weren\u2019t my \u201cwhy.\u201d If you asked me, as a fully busy mom who\u2019s working and has a full plate, \u201cHey, can you do a little extra effort on your dinner presentation?\u201d I would have a thought, \u201cScrew you. No way. I\u2019m only doing so much.\u201d But if you ask me, \u201cHey, do you want to feel more connected in your body and have a more fulfilling experience from this 5:00 to 6:30 period?\u201d That sounded a lot better.<\/span><\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> OK, so let\u2019s say someone\u2019s listening, and they\u2019re scanning their life right now, their seven-day week life and they\u2019re thinking, \u201cThese are the moments when I zone out. It\u2019s not particularly meaningful, I\u2019m just trudging through it.\u201d What\u2019s the next question they can ask themselves to transform those parts of their lives into something that will feel more nourishing? More useful?<\/span><\/p>\n

KK:<\/b> Well, it really depends on what they\u2019re doing.<\/span><\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> True.<\/span><\/p>\n

KK:<\/b> I feel that way when I\u2019m doing emails, and there\u2019s no way around it for me. I have a couple different things that I do or try. It\u2019s not always just asking the question, it\u2019s also about taking inspired action. Frankly, the best action that I\u2019ve found for some of the things where I\u2019m trudging is to pair it with something else. In the case of me doing emails, I do them while I\u2019m walking on my treadmill\u2014which I don\u2019t particularly like either, but I at least feel like [\u2026] I\u2019m getting two things done.<\/span><\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Two things you don\u2019t like equal one thing that\u2019s not so bad.<\/span><\/p>\n

KK:<\/b> Great. But the most important thing I would ask people\u2014and when I\u2019m working with my clients or in workshops, this is the first place we go\u2014is to do a values inventory. I don\u2019t know one person who doesn\u2019t benefit from me refreshing themselves on their values and going, \u201cOh yes, these are the things that I care most about in life. And from that, what are my priorities? Which ones matter the most?\u201d That\u2019s where I would go right away with people and say, \u201cHow do we link this?\u201d The drudgery to something that you actually\u2014it\u2019s a reframing exercise. Something that you care about deeply. That sitting here doing these emails is in service of this work that enables you to provide for your family.\u201d It\u2019s trying to find the meaning again and anchoring it in the values.<\/span><\/p>\n

That can go a long way towards\u2014there was a study on that. I think this was the Stanford study about the kids who were on their spring break. Some kids were asked to just report what they did. The other kids were asked to say about how what they did was really consistent with their values. The kids that journaled about the values\u2014how driving their little brother around was actually in service of helping their family (they tied everything to something more meaningful)\u2014reported having such a better experience and having these more lasting effects of well-being months later. That works to really reframe any drudgery that you\u2019re experiencing [\u2026]; you\u2019re transforming it from being a disconnected, unintentional activity to something intentional that you\u2019re very connected to. You still may not feel like doing it, that\u2019s fine. Not being connected is not always about having a happy, positive, enjoyable experience.<\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s one of the things I love about working with connection; we\u2019re not just focusing on positivity. You can be connected while having a very difficult conversation with somebody, or having to show up and have some courage, or sit bedside with somebody who\u2019s not doing well in the hospital. It\u2019s about just connecting with the deeper intention of it all.<\/span><\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Now in the very beginning, I mentioned that you\u2019re the founder of the Purpose Project, and we\u2019ve been talking a lot about what\u2019s meaningful to us and finding meaning in activities. I think a lot of times people get confused about meaning and purpose\u2014\u201cI\u2019m on purpose, so my life\u2019s meaningful, yes.\u201d So, first, let\u2019s just start, if you can share how you understand the difference between focusing on purpose and focusing on meaning.<\/span><\/p>\n

KK:<\/b> Yes, I spend so much time thinking about these distinctions. They are so important, and they get blended together even with values. I think that meaning\u2014I\u2019ll start there\u2014are incredibly important clues to what your values are. Your values are incredibly close to what your purpose or your purposes can be or are. Meaning also are important clues to your purpose. I think meaning in and of itself is not just the endpoint. That\u2019s the point of self-discovery of \u201cWhat matters to me? What gives my heart an explosion? What lights me up? What do I care about? What feels meaningless?\u201d It\u2019s equally important to notice what feels meaningless. That\u2019s, to me, just incredibly rich information about\u2014what you care about and what matters to you are all indicators that you\u2019re looking for on that pathway to discovering \u201cWhat am I here to do? What are my greatest gifts to give?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s all about uncovering the many purposes that we have in this lifetime. I think purpose\u2014let me give you an example, and I\u2019ll tie it to parenting for a second. Purpose can look more, and often does look more, like a mission statement. When I\u2019m doing work with people on uncovering purpose, I ask them to create a mission statement around parenting, or around their romantic partnership, like \u201cWhat kind of partner do I really want to be? What is my ideal? My vision for myself? What am I here to do and develop a purpose statement?\u201d Purpose, I\u2019m thinking about it and describing it a little differently than how most people think about it which is, \u201cWhat\u2019s my calling, or my one thing that I\u2019m supposed to do here in life?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

I think that it\u2019s important to break it down and realize that we\u2019re here to do many things, and that we want to bring a sense of purpose to whatever we\u2019re doing, when it\u2019s that big and that important to us. Then those moments of meaning, are the things that really inform and fuel that purpose and make sure that you\u2019re on the right track. When we look at meaning, I find it\u2019s not useful really to think about meaning in an all or nothing way, like binary: \u201cIs my life meaningful? Yes, no.\u201d That doesn\u2019t really give us a lot of information. So, what we study, like in one of our research studies, we do micro moments of meaning, where we really look at \u201cIs what I\u2019m doing right now meaningful? Is this conversation you and I are having meaningful?\u201d and be informed at a more granular level of how you\u2019re spending your time.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

What choices you\u2019re making\u2014and whether I\u2019m just slapping something together for dinner. Or am I doing something, creating my first lasagna, that feels just more meaningful. Those are a part of maybe a larger mission statement, my purpose of what kind of parents do I want to be? What kind of family do I want to have? It\u2019s just about having more intentional, purposeful, on-purpose living, where there\u2019s something that you\u2019re aiming for. That\u2019s what purpose gives us, it\u2019s really more goal directed. You\u2019ve got your sights set on a vision. I hope I answered that.<\/span><\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Well, there\u2019s a little bit more I want to try to tease apart. I mean, one thing you write about, and you pointed to it here, is misconceptions people have about purpose. One of them is that it\u2019s singular. It\u2019s possible we could have many different purpose\u2014I\u2019m just joking, many different purposes. The other misconception you write about is that our purpose is forever: you\u2019re loosening it up and talking more about the many different kinds of purposes we can manifest, and how it grows and changes in our life. I think that\u2019s important.<\/span><\/p>\n

KK:<\/b> I do too. I think that, when I talked to a lot of my girlfriends about the concept of purpose, I find that so many people are just in a chokehold about it, really constricted, even just feeling a tremendous angst like \u201cI haven\u2019t found my purpose yet,\u201d or, \u201cAm I really living my purpose?\u201d Again, like meaning, instead of looking at your life and [\u2026] asking it in a binary question, all or nothing, what I find loosens it up is to really honor and step back and recognize that purposes have\u2014we are just constantly evolving creatures. We\u2019re constantly in a state of having things that are either just beginning to bud like a flower, or we have things that are in full bloom, that are happening in our life.<\/span><\/p>\n

We also have things that are beginning to wither away, and that have served their purpose and are on the back side. Rather than getting focused on just the answer to that question\u2014\u201cWhat is my purpose?\u201d\u2014I find it a lot more useful to scrub through your life and really tune into what\u2019s trying to emerge. What are the things that might want to be budding? What\u2019s capturing my imagination lately? Then also pausing to take stock of\u2014”What\u2019s blooming? Is it my career? Is it my family? Is it my friend? What\u2019s really going well for me and is still in full stride?\u201d\u2014and honoring that. Even though you might have more to give in this world, and more purpose that needs to be discovered, it\u2019s still important to honor what is working.<\/span><\/p>\n

The most important exercise I think, where we tend to hang on too long, is the things that are past and the bloom has come off the rose, and they\u2019re withering. We cling a little bit and we\u2019re maybe not ready to let go. But making room for purpose is really also about creating space and letting go of the things that have served their purpose and are no longer serving. I find that that\u2019s a much more active mining process, that if you\u2019re asking that question of yourself, then it takes a bit more excavation than just asking the question and hoping that an answer will materialize.<\/span><\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> I love the flowering metaphors as well, and the different phases of the flower. That\u2019s beautiful. Now I want to ask you a kind of edgy question\u2014comes from my own experience\u2014which is, I\u2019ve found that in my life I can often feel very on purpose, even in the way you just described of the different phases. I always seem to have a project that I\u2019m either done with and letting go of and a new one coming. It\u2019s fine, great, so many projects, OK wonderful, Tami. But at the same time of being very on purpose, I can have this weird, sneaking feeling of everything being meaningless. It\u2019s a difficult feeling. It\u2019s a bleak \u201cWhat\u2019s the point, really?\u201d When you look, what\u2019s the point? Help me understand how even it\u2019s possible, to feel very on purpose, and have this strange empty, meaningless feeling?<\/span><\/p>\n

KK:<\/b> That\u2019s an awesome question. I really like that one. I can relate to that. Even personally, I\u2019ve had that experience as well. I think it can be a little bit more complicated. But where I go with myself, around that duality of that experience is I am often humbled and reminded about how meaning-making, very much like gratitude, is a practice that if\u2014you use it or you lose it. That doesn\u2019t mean necessarily that you\u2019re going to turn around and just cultivate and practice a lot of meaning and gratitude for what you\u2019re doing. You\u2019re going to be right back on purpose, feeling 1000 percent fulfilled by what you\u2019re doing. I think that it means that in some way, what\u2019s working against us at all times is hedonic adaptation, where we get used to what we\u2019re doing, we get used to what\u2019s going well, and we get used to the good. It just doesn\u2019t impact us or mean as much to us.<\/span><\/p>\n

In order to still get the goods from what we\u2019re doing, we do need to practice savoring and tuning into how in which this is meaningful to us, and how this aligns with your values. Even if you know what you\u2019re doing is on purpose and on track, and you\u2019ve already vetted it, it\u2019s still a really healthy and important exercise to remind yourself and to go back and look at your values and go, \u201cOh, yes, that\u2019s right. That\u2019s why I do what I do. That\u2019s why I love helping people and I love talking about these types of things.\u201d And refresh. So, I think refresh is one part of it.<\/span><\/p>\n

Healthy skepticism is another where, even though you\u2019re living on purpose, if there\u2019s an ache or a nag, that\u2019s the part of asking yourself to tune in and connect to that, what is that? I doubt that that little ache really has to do with everything feels meaningless, but maybe that\u2019s more of a yearning, that something else\u2014that there\u2019s more to give. We all want and need to be continually evolving and growing. So, is there more that\u2019s emerging, like that metaphor with the bud, something that wants to come out. I think that I use those feelings of meaninglessness. Right away, it rings my bell to say, \u201cOK, I need to start cultivating my practice again.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

What that looks like for me, is just right before I go to bed, I jot down the things that stood out to me as particularly meaningful, like a gratitude practice. It\u2019s highly, highly effective, even in just two or three days, to reset and refresh and imbue me, even neurologically helping me re-experience and re-imbue the experience with more meaning, then also go in an inquiry mode. Those will be my two answers, is to reconnect to the practice of savoring and reminding yourself of how what you\u2019re doing is aligned with your values. But then also inquiring skeptically, using healthy skepticism to say, \u201cWhat am I not seeing?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Kristine, I think a lot of people are familiar with the idea, at the end of the day, of doing a gratitude practice. But I don\u2019t think a lot of people are familiar with this suggestion your offering, of doing a practice of reflecting on what\u2019s meaningful. Can you say a little bit more about how to do that at the end of the day? Maybe give an example from your own experience?<\/span><\/p>\n

KK:<\/b> Yes, sure. It is something that I play with a lot with myself. I keep a journal by my bed. I try to write down three to five things at the end of the day that really jumped out to me. There were meaningful moments, it might be something funny one of my kids said. Or just a really poignant moment in a therapy session with a client. Or something that I was grateful for, gratitude and meaning are really intertwined. I think recently, a more powerful example is one of my clients, who had a lot of hardship, had lost everything. She\u2019s a frontline worker. And one of her explicit complaints to me was\u2014she also lost custody of her kids. And she said, \u201cI have nothing; my life is just meaningless.\u201d And in a really heavy, heavy way, objectively, that looked to be very true on paper. I wasn\u2019t trying to refute her reality in any way. But I said, \u201cLet\u2019s just do an experiment with that, a thought experiment for the week, let\u2019s just test whether that\u2019s\u2014how true is that? And let\u2019s challenge you to see, and let\u2019s go meaning hunting.\u201d She was up for it.<\/span><\/p>\n

In a way that didn\u2019t really\u2014we weren\u2019t invalidating her experience. We very much said it\u2019s absolutely true; we\u2019ve had all of these horrific losses and yet there\u2019s no one asking the question, \u201cIs there still meaning in life? And where can it be found?\u201d She agreed to jot down and push herself to find as many moments of meaning, as little. I gave her a lot of examples in which really helped prime the pump of it. But she came back just bursting with examples at our next session of just moments. She works with homeless folks: just moments where she was helping people, or somebody held the door for her or just noticing some spring flowers outside her door. She was tuning into all kinds of micro moments of meaning and connection with others. And by the second week, she did come back and say, \u201cI can\u2019t believe I\u2019m going to say this, but my life is filled. There\u2019s meaning everywhere. I\u2019m just not in the habit of seeing it.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s really true for all of us, we just become habituated and\u2014not numb, but we are just not in the habit of seeing it. But it is so easily cultivatable, that when you train yourself to look for things that like I said, make your heart burst, or make you smile. It\u2019s not hard at all. You can go take a walk around your block and come back. If I challenged you to go find five things you could do it.<\/span><\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> You share a very inspiring story in the book about how you borrowed your son\u2019s Polaroid camera and did a photo capture of meaningful objects in your house. I really loved that. Tell me about some of the things you took photos of, and what the meaning was for you in those photographs.<\/span><\/p>\n

KK:<\/b> Oh, it evolved. At first, I think I\u2014it\u2019s funny, we ended up using that intervention in our studies, and then in subsequent studies we published it.<\/span><\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> It\u2019s interesting that you call it an intervention. That\u2019s interesting in and of itself. Maybe you can explain that.<\/span><\/p>\n

KK:<\/b> We do now because we use it in [\u2026] a couple of our published studies; we called it photographic meaning. But it came from\u2014I can\u2019t remember what started it and I was challenging myself. I think I was part of a workshop or something where we were supposed to find meaning and I just didn\u2019t feel like doing writing or journaling it; sometimes that works great for me and I love it. But photographing is just a much faster way. So, I decided, \u201cI\u2019m going to take pictures of things that are meaningful.\u201d I just quickly exhausted my usual suspects of taking photos of every single animal in person that I love. Then I had to get more creative. I found it really interesting to take photos of things where you\u2019re not trying to create a beautiful image; they don\u2019t have to be photo worthy.<\/span><\/p>\n

Then I started to just maybe take photos of an empty room in my house that I just loved the way that I decorated it, and it made me so happy. Or something that I cooked, or I took pictures of some things I cut out of my vegetable garden. Just started collecting moments throughout my day of\u2014I took a picture of my notepad; at the time, I was working on this book; I\u2019d jot my ideas down in this notepad. That notepad was so meaningful to me. I took a picture of [\u2026] my favorite mug of coffee, that I use every morning when I sit down to write. It just started to just become what seems maybe really mundane or meaningless things to probably anybody else. At the end of it I was amazed at how much I loved this personal collection of little photos. They all just touched me in a certain way. Yes, it\u2019s one of my favorite photo albums\u2014more than the photos that I intentionally take.<\/span><\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> When you say that you use it in your studies as an intervention, how do you use it? What are the results?<\/span><\/p>\n

KK:<\/b> We use it as I was just saying, we found it really helpful to bypass the thinking brain. We can get a little bogged down on \u201cIs something meaningful? Is it not?\u201d Snapping photos can be a little more immediate and impulsive. When we asked people to have these bursts experiences, whether it was either for 24 hours or for five days. We did different time settings of\u2014run around and just find as many meaningful things as you can, whether it\u2019s a hummingbird, or a this or a that. Doesn\u2019t matter. You be the judge. There are no criteria. Then we ended up [and found] that that increased people\u2019s sense of self connection, and lowered their anxiety, and [gave them] a better sense of well-being.<\/span><\/p>\n

But we decided to repeat that study during COVID. We wondered if people, during the most strict period of quarantine, who were looking at their life as really limited, and their options, and seeing a lot of scarcity, if doing this exercise could reframe what their experience was and give them a sense of abundance and possibility.<\/span><\/p>\n

We asked them to do the same thing and figured on their smartphone they could just run around their house or immediately outside their door or on a walk. We did find significant results that people not only had more improved well-being immediately, but then I think we got a month or two follow-up out of that. So, it works. It\u2019s really about priming yourself to\u2014once you start to see meaning, even after 24 hours, it\u2019s like shopping for a car: if you decided that you\u2019re looking for a red car, and then all of a sudden you notice them everywhere on the road; that\u2019s how cultivation of meaning is; you let it out of the gates, and [\u2026] because it\u2019s naturally reinforcing and enjoyable and rewarding, it does take on a life of its own very easily.<\/span><\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Beautiful. Kristine, we talked about purpose. You mentioned how there are these misconceptions, and that our purpose can be plural, it changes; you give the example of the different phases of flowers opening in a garden. There\u2019s also, though, a section in the book where you\u2019re talking about purpose where you do describe what it\u2019s like to find a sense of higher purpose or a grand purpose in your life. I wonder if you can talk some about that. Does everybody have this higher purpose? This grand purpose?<\/span><\/p>\n

KK:<\/b> Not necessarily, everyone has the opportunity for that. It\u2019s something important to know about, but not from a sense of feeling pressured; it\u2019s something that you have to do. But I was laying that out for my readers as part of the Maslow\u2019s hierarchy. The very top of Maslow\u2019s hierarchy is self-actualization. All human beings, once we get our lower needs met, it\u2019s a natural instinctive yearning for ascension to that place\u2014whether that\u2019s \u201cKnow thyself\u201d or finding your purpose. I view your grand purpose as the very tip of that triangle. The one ingredient that that requires, is that what you\u2019re doing, whatever gift that you\u2019re giving to this world, whatever your work is\u2014and that can be paid work, non-paid work, parenting, you define it\u2014if it\u2019s in service of something beyond yourself, something greater than yourself, and that transcendence, and it\u2019s not just about you and it\u2019s not just about making money or getting some of the\u00a0 lower-level needs met, that\u2019s some of the greatest wisdom thinkers in the world talk about that being just the ultimate bliss, that not all of us get to do. Many of us are still, just have to do what we have to do as a means to an end. But it\u2019s a wonderful thing to aspire to, and to think about. How could I show up to that next level? What does that look like for me? And maybe that\u2019s just in the form of volunteer work? It\u2019s that feeling that I think we all want to access.<\/span><\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> In writing about this, and this idea of giving of ourselves something to serve other people beyond ourselves, you write about yourself in what I thought was a very vulnerable way. I wanted to ask you about this, it really struck me. You wrote, \u201cOne of my gifts is thinking, learning, researching, and writing about authentic connection. Not because I\u2019m good at it, but because I\u2019ve always had a huge hole in my heart.\u201d I thought, \u201cHuh, Kristine Klussman\u2019s always had a huge hole in her heart?\u201d And that\u2019s what\u2019s informing this work underneath connection theory. I want to know more about that. If you still feel like you have that, is that just part of your design this lifetime? Or is all the work that you\u2019ve done with authentic connection change that in some way?<\/span><\/p>\n

KK:<\/b> Oh, well thank you for asking that question. I actually forgot about that part in the book. That is a tender part that\u2014where that was the context of why I was offering that as an example: I was pointing out that often, our grand purpose, our highest gifts to give this world in the service of others is the place where we\u2019ve been the most wounded. That is where we are often the most expertised. Only through our experience, can we offer some guiding light to others. Yes, I am one of those people that has had to hustle for connection. I\u2019m not one of those people where it comes naturally to me. You wouldn\u2019t know it, when I talk about that with other people, they\u2019re always surprised. But one of the things that I learned when, through our research studies, especially\u2014we were hunting for people that are identified in their community or self-identified as really connected individuals, connected to themselves, to others; they\u2019re doing what\u2019s meaningful to them. What I noticed from these individuals, they were all extraordinarily embodying this feeling of self-connection and all kinds of connections. Connection to their community, and their beloved people. You\u2019re immediately magnetized to them regardless of what they do or what you do or don\u2019t have in common with them. We\u2019re not all born like those people. Some people have had just a really lovely combination of upbringing and circumstances or ability to really be close to and acting from a place of being at one with themselves. But many of us, with the society that we live in, just pulls us constantly towards disconnection and towards dishonoring ourselves and our deeper truths.<\/span><\/p>\n

I certainly didn\u2019t get that modeling from my parents. They\u2019re great people, but we weren\u2019t thinking or talking about any of this type of stuff. I think that most of my life has been characterized by [\u2026] death by 1000 cuts, following someone else\u2019s path rather than my own, just not tuning in, acting from a place of really doing what I feel like I should be doing and without asking the deeper questions. So yes, it doesn\u2019t come natural to me. I don\u2019t think it comes natural to a lot of people. But there are some, the lucky few that it\u2019s just who they are and how they operate.<\/span><\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> And with the work you\u2019ve done, to learn, you say this is a teachable skill. We can learn how to be connected. Would you say that that\u2019s changed for you? That you\u2019re a living laboratory experiment with have your own connection lab? If you will?<\/span><\/p>\n

KK:<\/b> Oh, my God. I wish I could say that that was true for most every day. But the real truth is that I think that what it\u2019s done is, it\u2019s definitely taught me how to reconnect, how to pause and rest, how to stop weeks, months and years of disconnection from going on that long. I can much more quickly recognize when I\u2019m off track. I know the things to do or to try to reel it back in, for that skill has changed my life immeasurably. I think I\u2019m a completely different person, post prioritizing that as my number one thing than how I was living my life before. But does that I\u2019m immune to going for long periods of being super disconnected and out of tune with myself? No, not at all. I\u2019m still really human in that regard, and still battle moments, days, weeks of disconnection. The only difference is I just know how to get it back on track faster.<\/span><\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> OK, Kristine. I just have a couple more questions for you. I\u2019m imagining that person who\u2019s listening who says, \u201cI think the reason I\u2019m not more connected with myself is that there\u2019s things inside, I just don\u2019t want to feel. I just don\u2019t want to feel them. I\u2019d rather not connect, because if I were to connect, I\u2019d have to feel those things. So no, thank you.\u201d What do you have to say to that person?<\/span><\/p>\n

KK:<\/b> I would say you\u2019re not alone. That is a really common coping style, and actually, really societally rewarded. It\u2019s avoidance. And it can be at the most minor or the most extreme level. The only thing I would say to that is\u2014at what price? What I\u2019ve come to learn is that the price that you pay for that, when you can\u2019t\u2014 Connection is a very contagious thing and being more connected begets having more different types of connection in your life. So, if you\u2019re blocked in one very important large area, then likely you\u2019re going to be blocked elsewhere. It\u2019s hard to advance, I think, or even evolve as a human. When you\u2019re really disconnected from a large part of yourself, whether that\u2019s from your body, or from your emotions, or from your other people. When you\u2019re using avoidance, it has a way of slowly taking over and just becoming a primary coping skill. I\u2019m not saying that facing your emotions is easy, but it is also a skill, something you can titrate and make friends with.<\/span><\/p>\n

There\u2019s a process for that too. It\u2019s a really worthy process. Because when you can invite those emotions to have a seat at the table and let them know that everybody belongs there. Not let them run the show necessarily, but it\u2019s often surprising how much less scary and painful and difficult that process really is and how great the rewards are. When people are operating in that way, they\u2019re overestimating the threat, and they\u2019re underestimating the reward of doing it differently.<\/span><\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Beautiful. Then also, let\u2019s imagine that person who says, \u201cYou know, as I\u2019m listening, the challenge I\u2019m having is, I don\u2019t feel as connected with X, Y, Z person. I wish I was, but I\u2019m not as connected to this other. But I don\u2019t really want to say that things that I haven\u2019t been saying that would allow me to be more connected, because I don\u2019t really want to say those things. I don\u2019t really want to say those things. I don\u2019t have the courage or it\u2019s too risky, or something like that, therefore I\u2019m not as connected as I would like to be.\u201d What would you say to that listener?<\/span><\/p>\n

KK:<\/b> Yes. I would say, so that\u2019s really then settling, right? That\u2019s saying, \u201cI\u2019m going to settle for less than the closest, most unblocked relationship I could have with this person.\u201d And in that scenario, maybe it\u2019s somebody at work. Maybe that\u2019s an appropriate coping, just to get through what you need to get through for a period of time. Or if it\u2019s somebody else closer, maybe the cost is really great. I think that it\u2019s really about looking at that cost benefit ratio of \u201cWhere am I trading off being connected?\u201d And being connected doesn\u2019t mean you have to be close to everybody. Or in a close relationship with everybody that you\u2019re relating with. It\u2019s about knowing what your priorities are, and who and what really matters to you, and even knowing what doesn\u2019t serve you and who doesn\u2019t serve you.<\/span><\/p>\n

Ideally, if you can move those people to an outer periphery of your life, that\u2019s better. But I think that tuning into what the cost is, is a really important starting point of being able to make the decision about being conscious, so that these don\u2019t become unconscious trades that we\u2019re making.<\/span><\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> OK, Kristine. I\u2019m going to ask you just one final question. First, I want to thank you for being so forthcoming, vulnerable, straightforward, and helpful, thank you\u2014<\/span><\/p>\n

KK:<\/b> Thank you.<\/span><\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> \u2014for that. My final question has to do with this whole notion of introducing a new theory in the world. Here you\u2019re introducing connection theory. It\u2019s interesting to me, I mean you\u2019re such a humble person, and soft-spoken, and yet you\u2019re introducing a new theory in the world of psychological research and understanding. So, I\u2019d like to understand a little bit why make it a theory versus just like, these are some thoughts you\u2019ve been having? What does it mean that it\u2019s a theory? What\u2019s your hope for connection theory? That\u2019s the note will end on.<\/span><\/p>\n

KK:<\/b> Such a huge question. OK. Let me tackle that. Thank you. Why a theory instead of a component? I think I\u2019m just done with all of the components in the psychology, psychiatry, the field of well-being, and all these tips and tricks, and everybody in their own little corner, not considering each other\u2019s work. I felt frustrated as a graduate student, and even as a therapist, trying to help my clients. I craved a holistic framework\u2014and one for my own life too. Like I said, I don\u2019t have the time or the patience to remember more than a few things\u2014and simple is everything to me. Believe me, I want to just stand on someone else\u2019s shoulders\u2014and I have\u2014and piggyback. I guess I\u2019m just not satisfied. I want to be able to use everybody\u2019s work and bring it together in a way that I feel has been boiled down and condensed and provides a logical order of \u201cHere\u2019s how you use all of this, and here\u2019s where you start.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

More than anything, I didn\u2019t necessarily want to offer a new theory, but I felt compelled to because it just didn\u2019t exist, and I needed a language, and something honestly to be able to test and measure, and not just look at it in isolation, but see how it works with everything else. So, I think just mainly because I have found that to be the most useful with myself, with my clients, with my research subjects. I think that theories\u2014there\u2019s a ton of them. They\u2019re a dime a dozen. It\u2019s not particularly groundbreaking to introduce a theory. It\u2019s really about is it useful? Does it have that on-the-ground value. If so\u2014I mean, I\u2019m really just repackaging what has already been said and done and we know works, and is very useful in helping people take it in, in a really digestible way, and simplifying it. That\u2019s my whole goal: is to simplify this whole vast question of \u201cHow do we live our best life?\u201d and everything that we\u2019ve come to learn from the field of psycho positive psychology and all the western traditions?<\/span><\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Well, I do think it\u2019s useful. And quite honestly, I think it\u2019s pretty cool that you came up with the theory. Kristine, I think that\u2019s cool, connection theory. I\u2019ve been talking to the founder of the Purpose Project, as well as the research arm, the Connection Lab, Kristine Klussman. She\u2019s the author of the new book <\/span>Connection: How to Find the Life You\u2019re Looking for in the Life You Have<\/span><\/i>. Really enjoyed our conversation so much. Thank you.<\/span><\/p>\n

KK:<\/b> Thank you, Tami. I really did as well. It was an honor.<\/span><\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> I felt really connected to you the entire time for real.<\/span><\/p>\n

KK:<\/b> I did as well.<\/span><\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Thank you for listening to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>. You can read a full transcript of today\u2019s interview at SoundsTrue.com\/podcast. If you\u2019re interested, hit the subscribe button in your podcast app. Also, if you feel inspired head to iTunes and leave <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i> review, I love getting your feedback, being in connection with you, and learning how we can continue to evolve and improve our program. Working together, I believe we can create a kinder and wiser world. SoundsTrue.com: waking up the world.<\/span><\/p>\n

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