{"id":9072,"date":"2021-06-15T19:47:47","date_gmt":"2021-06-15T19:47:47","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?post_type=transcript&p=9072"},"modified":"2021-06-15T19:47:47","modified_gmt":"2021-06-15T19:47:47","slug":"fierce-intimacy","status":"publish","type":"transcript","link":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/fierce-intimacy\/","title":{"rendered":"Fierce Intimacy"},"content":{"rendered":"
\"image_print\"Print Transcript<\/span><\/a><\/div>


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\n<\/b>Tami Simon: <\/b>Welcome to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>, produced by Sounds True. My name is Tami Simon, I’m the founder of Sounds True, and I’d love to take a moment to introduce you to the new Sounds True Foundation. The Sounds True Foundation is dedicated to creating a wiser and kinder world by making transformational education widely available. We want everyone to have access to transformational tools such as mindfulness, emotional awareness, and self-compassion, regardless of financial, social, or physical challenges. The Sounds True Foundation is a nonprofit dedicated to providing these transformational tools to communities in need, including at risk youth, prisoners, veterans, and those in developing countries. If you’d like to learn more or feel inspired to become a supporter, please visit SoundsTrueFoundation.org.<\/span><\/p>\n

You\u2019re listening to <\/span>Insights at the Edge.<\/span><\/i> Today is a rebroadcast of one of my favorite episodes. I hope you enjoy it.<\/span><\/p>\n

You\u2019re listening to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>. Today my guest is Terry Real. Terry is an internationally recognized family therapist, speaker, and author. He founded the Relational Life Institute, offering workshops for couples, individuals, and parents. A family therapist and teacher for more then 25 years, Terry is the bestselling author of <\/span>I Don\u2019t Want to Talk About It: Overcoming the Secret Legacy of Male Depression<\/span><\/i>, and most recently, <\/span>The New Rules of Marriage: What You Need to Make Love Work<\/span><\/i>. With Sounds True, Terry has created a new audio learning series called <\/span>Fierce Intimacy: Standing Up to One Another with Love<\/span><\/i>.<\/span><\/p>\n

In this episode of <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>, Terry and I spoke about the deal breakers that can happen in a relationship and how it\u2019s possible for these deal breakers to not necessarily be a death sentence for relationships. We talked about developing the skill of what Terry calls \u201crelational mindfulness\u201d and how to take care of your partner when you\u2019re processing a difficult issue. We talked about \u201cthe golden rule of relational empowerment\u201d and some examples of the golden rule in action.<\/span><\/p>\n

We talked about what it means to hold a \u201ccore negative image\u201d of your partner, what Terry calls a CNI. Yes, you heard that right, core negative image of your partner\u2014and how it\u2019s normal to do so, and the importance of unearthing these CNIs, and how they actually give you the operating instructions that you need on your partner.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

And finally we talked about how objective reality has no place in close, personal relationships, what Terry means by \u201cfierce intimacy,\u201d and how the relationship skills that Terry teaches are actually the skills we need right now as a culture to help us evolve as a human race.<\/span><\/p>\n

Recorded face-to-face, in person in the Sounds True Studio in Boulder. Here\u2019s my conversation with Terry Real.<\/span><\/p>\n

Welcome, everyone. I\u2019m here with Terry Real in the Sounds True Studio. Terry has been with us recording an audio series on <\/span>Fierce Intimacy<\/span><\/i>. Terry, I\u2019m so glad to be with you.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Terry Real:<\/b> I\u2019m delighted to be here, Tami.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>In learning more about your work, one of the things I discovered is that couples come to you, couples who self-identify as being in trouble in some way\u2014<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>In big ways.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Big ways.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>For a two-day intensive and at the end of the intensive, they\u2019re either filing for divorce or they\u2019re on track in their relationship. This is the promise.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>This is the last stop.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>This is the promise of your work. Is it really that, this or that, either divorce or we\u2019re on track?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Well, the couples that come to see me are on the brink of divorce. My beat are couples on the brink of divorce that have had two, three, four, my record so far is eight therapies that haven\u2019t touched them. We do two full days together. And at the end of that time, you\u2019re either your fat is out of the fire or you\u2019re done. I\u2019m not saying that I cure couples in two days. They go back home with a pretty-tailored treatment program. You go to a 12-step, you go to a med consult, you go to a men\u2019s group. They have to follow through with that if it\u2019s going to hold. But I save most of them. They do turn around.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Give me a sense of what happens during those two days.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Well, one of the things that happens is that I break every rule that I learned as a couples therapist.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>All right!<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>It was really out of these interventions and what happens in them and the fact that I do break most of the rules, that I faded back. I was already teaching couples in family therapy and I took a look at what I was doing and created the system that I now teach, called Relational Life Therapy. I start off with the stance. In a heterosexual couple\u2014we\u2019ll call it, keep it simple\u2014his relational stance, her relational stance, and the way they interlock and reinforce each other. So I start with a dysfunctional stance. Can I give you an example?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Please. Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Angry pursuit is a dysfunctional stance. Angry pursuit is never going to get you more of what you want. \u201cGoddammit, get off the couch. Get your fat butt over here and love me now,\u201d is not going to work. So angry pursuit meets angry withdrawal and it turns into a feedback loop, a vicious circle. I teach my students to call this, \u201cthe more the more.\u201d The more he angrily pursues, the more she angrily withdraws, and the more she angrily withdraws, the more he angrily pursues. This is Couples Therapy 101.<\/span><\/p>\n

This is the skeleton. This is my problem. This is my patient. To the degree to which that vicious circle is shifting, my work is doing something. To which it\u2019s not shifting, and that\u2019s not my responsibility, it\u2019s theirs, but to which it\u2019s not shifting, we\u2019re all having a great time. People are having great cathartic experiences. People are talking to their inner children. People are having great insights. But if the stance doesn\u2019t change, then you\u2019re not moving. So that\u2019s my skeleton. That\u2019s my plumb line. Is the stance breaking up? And are each of them moving into something that\u2019s more relational, more adult, more functional?<\/span><\/p>\n

The next step usually is that I move from the current stance to where it comes from\u2014the family of origin. In the system I work with, we talk about the functional adult part of you. And everybody knows the wounded child part of you, which tends to be very young. In between those two is a part of you we call the adaptive child part of you. James Masterson called it your character defenses, your personality.<\/span><\/p>\n

This is a kid in grownup\u2019s clothing. This is the part of you that adapted to what was ever going on. You think that\u2019s an adult, but it\u2019s really not. It\u2019s often immature. It\u2019s the adaptive child part of us that gets us into so much trouble. It\u2019s the adaptive child part of us that fuels these stances. Can I give you another example?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Another example would be great. Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>I have a saying, \u201cShow me the thumbprint and I\u2019ll tell you about the thumb.\u201d Let\u2019s say hypothetically, let\u2019s not talk too personally\u2026<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Not yet.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Let\u2019s say, hypothetically, I had an intrusive mother. I have an intrusive mother. I adapt to that intrusion by going behind thick walls. The thicker the walls in the adult, you can bet, the bigger the intrusion in childhood. Show me the thumb, I\u2019ll show you the thumbprint. Those walls are now my adaptation. That\u2019s my adaptive child. I go into a marriage and my partner comes at me. I\u2019ll often choose an intrusive partner because we repeat these things. I know all about what it\u2019s like to be intruded upon, I go behind those walls. A kind of, let\u2019s say, aloof distance is now my dysfunctional stance. That\u2019s my adaptive child.<\/span><\/p>\n

I start with the stance that\u2019s getting you into so much trouble. And then I move into, where did that stance come from? And then we do some inner child work or some family of origin work. Then I teach you how to do it differently. There are three phases to this work. There\u2019s the confrontation, loving confrontation. I call that joining through the truth. This is what you\u2019re doing to blow your foot off. Let\u2019s take a look at it. Then there\u2019s back in the family of origin, inner child work. This is where it comes from. And then it\u2019s teaching you what a better way of doing it looks like.<\/span><\/p>\n

Let me tell you a story. I won\u2019t say who, but a magazine sent a reporter to me with her husband. Fortunately\u2014because I was on air, so to speak\u2014we turned the marriage around in one session. And I\u2019ll tell you how we did it. The guy she described as being an \u201cex-dick\u201d. He had been a real jerk for a number of years. She was ready to leave him. He saw the light, did a 180 and for the last year or year and a half, he was an ex-jerk. He was a nice, thoughtful, connected guy. She could not accept the new him. She was still stuck in resentment. So that was her dysfunctional stance. She was parked in resentment.<\/span><\/p>\n

So once that became clear, the next question was, \u201cOK, who was the resentful one in your family growing up? Where did you learn this from?\u201d They\u2019re either reacting to it or they\u2019re learning to repeat it, or some combination of the two. She says, \u201cMy mom.\u201d \u201cOK. Tell me about your mom?\u201d \u201cWell, my mom was resentful breakfast, lunch, and dinner. My mom hated my dad and made it perfectly clear.\u201d I said, \u201cWell, did she enlist you as a co-conspirator against your father? Was it that kind of unholy fusion?\u201d She said, \u201cNo. My mother was very selfish, very narcissistic, and she emotionally had nothing to do with me.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

In fact, she told me a story about being a little girl having a nightmare, going to her mother\u2019s bedroom, being frozen in the doorway of the bedroom, and knowing, as terrified as she was, that it wouldn\u2019t be good for her to disturb her mother. She went back to bed alone. Her mother had no connection with her at all. So this is the pivotal moment. I say to her, \u201cI know a way that you can be close to a parent who doesn\u2019t want to be close to you at all. Works every time.\u201d She said, \u201cOK, I\u2019ll bite. What is it?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

I said, \u201cBe like them.\u201d I said, \u201cResentment is the family business. You are in union with your mother by sharing her vision of what a relationship looks like.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

I said, \u201cIf you let this new man in, you\u2019re going to be leaving your mother.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

And she started to cry and she said, \u201cI think it\u2019s time to do that.\u201d I said, \u201cWhat was your mother\u2019s name?\u201d I\u2019ll say Clara. I said, \u201cClara and Marcia, Resentment Are Us. You are in the family business. Are you willing to let it go?\u201d She said, \u201cYes, I think I am.\u201d A lot of grief was unleashed as she let go of that last vestige of unity with her mother and she embraced her husband. That was about eight months ago. So far at least, the resentment hasn\u2019t resurfaced.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

So I start with this stance, look at the dysfunctional adaption the person\u2019s doing, take that adaptation back to where it came from, release it, and then teach the person how to do it differently.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now a couple comes to you and you have the thought, \u201cI don\u2019t think I can help this couple.\u201d What is going on when that\u2019s your assessment?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>What are the deal breakers?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Yes. I don\u2019t think I can help this couple.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Well, love is a two-handed game and if one of them doesn\u2019t want to play, we\u2019re done. I can think they\u2019re a perfectly salvageable couple, but if one of them want out, they want out. So that\u2019s the first deal breaker. Sometimes couples therapy\u2019s a drop-off. \u201cYou deal with him. Have fun. I\u2019m outta here.\u201d But most people are pretty conscientious and are really struggling with whether to stay or go.<\/span><\/p>\n

Here are a couple deal breakers. One is, I talk in relational life work about what I call \u201cpreconditions for intimacy.\u201d It\u2019s one of the reasons why I think RLT, the therapy I do, produces quick change, because we pay attention to things that other therapists skip over.<\/span><\/p>\n

There are three preconditions which you have to look at before you can pretend to get closer to each other. One is untreated psychiatric conditions, right? OCD, ADD, depression, anxiety. You can\u2019t get closer to each other while that\u2019s going on untreated. The second are serious patterns of self-medication\u2014drinking, drugs, gambling, risk-taking. The third are acting out disorders, either sexual or aggressive. Domestic violence is a contraindication for couples therapy. I don\u2019t ask people to tell the truth to power if there\u2019s a real danger in doing so.<\/span><\/p>\n

You can\u2019t get closer to each other while there\u2019s a third leg of a triangle, unless you have an open marriage. But even then, it\u2019s funny. People still transgress in open marriages. Whatever the rules are, people have a way of going beyond whatever the rules are. So those are three preconditions. If I\u2019ve got somebody who\u2019s either got an untreated psychiatric disorder, a serious self-medication problem, or sexual or aggressive acting out, and they dig in their heels and don\u2019t want to do anything about it, that may be it.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>OK, but those are pretty extreme. The three that you\u2019ve stated.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>I have one more extreme one.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>OK.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Which is not uncommon, by the way. If one of the two partners never loved the other one to begin with. If they married because they were pregnant, or to please Mom, or because it looked good on paper but their heart was never in it, I actually want them to let go of the other partner and let them find somebody who can love them. So that\u2019s another deal breaker.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>But outside of those four deal breakers, a couple comes to you and no matter how angry they are or the string of affairs that have happened but it\u2019s over now, you believe that potentially it\u2019s workable.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Absolutely workable. I\u2019m in the people-transformation business. People come to couples therapy and they think it\u2019s about behavioral change or learning communication skills. That\u2019s not what it\u2019s about. If partner A brings in partner B, what partner A wants is characterological change in partner B. They want partner B to be a different human being, and most couples therapy shies away from that, but I try and deliver that. I try and render partner B a more relational, connected person.<\/span><\/p>\n

If you\u2019re grandiose, you come down. If you\u2019re shame-based, you come up. If you\u2019re avoidant, you engage. If you\u2019re boundaryless, you grow a boundary. You learn how to be a connected, mature person on my watch. And anybody can do it. You know, I often get asked by therapists, \u201cWell, what about narcissist personality disorders or borderline personality disorder? Can you work with them?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Here\u2019s my story. True story. I worked with a couple, no offense to doctors, but they were two doctors. They were at worst mildly neurotic. They were very healthy people, but they had what I call \u201cdoctor-it is\u201d and they weren\u2019t going to let me teach them nothing. They didn\u2019t go very far.<\/span><\/p>\n

I had another couple. This is absolutely true. They were both what you would call bad borderline personality disorders, both of them. I\u2019m talking, yelling, screaming. He goes off and goes to a motel. She follows him and she\u2019s banging on the door. The cops come and drag her away. Borderline. Suicide attempts, everything. But she got pregnant.<\/span><\/p>\n

They both come from bad trauma, like most Borderlines do, and she got pregnant. She was determined that she was not going to submit her kid to what she lived with and she was determined to do the work and so was he. I want to tell you, these people cleaned up in a matter of six months. They\u2019re different people now. In fact, this is true, she went on and became a therapist, and she\u2019s now an RLT therapist and a pretty good one.<\/span><\/p>\n

So I don\u2019t care what your diagnosis is. I don\u2019t care how immature you are to start. I don\u2019t care how much trauma. I don\u2019t care how much you\u2019ve hurt each other. All I care about is, do you want to do the work? If you want to do the work, we can do it.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>In your book, <\/span>The New Rules of Marriage<\/span><\/i>, you actually make this comparison in the beginning of the book that becoming relationally fit has parallels to becoming physically fit. If you work out, if you do it, you\u2019ll become physically fit. I thought, for most people, they think\u2026 I think most people think, that happiness in relationship is a lot more mysterious than becoming physically fit.<\/span><\/p>\n

To become physically fit, this is something I\u2019m going to do on my own. And I know that if I\u2019m not physically fit, it\u2019s because I haven\u2019t been to the gym. I\u2019ve been eating ice cream. Whatever. I take responsibility. I know inside, I\u2019m not physically fit. I haven\u2019t been doing it. But relational happiness, this is going to take a miracle outside of my own energy and effort because there\u2019s this other person involved. And this other person\u2019s really difficult.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Yes, isn\u2019t that amazing the way the other person is always so difficult and we\u2019re all so nice?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>There\u2019s a relational technology. There are skills. In our patriarchal culture, we don\u2019t value relationship. We code relationship as feminine and we do to intimacy what we do to many things feminine: we idealize it in principle, and we devalue it in fact. So in this culture, we don\u2019t teach our sons and daughters how to be relational. There are skills. There\u2019s a skill in learning how to love yourself. There\u2019s a skill in learning good boundaries. There are skills in learning how to stand up for yourself with love and how to respond with generosity instead of defensiveness. These are the skills I teach. I\u2019m sure we\u2019ll be talking about some of them. But these skills can be mastered.<\/span><\/p>\n

What makes life difficult and mysterious is that a big part of us when we get triggered doesn\u2019t give a damn about skills. One of the main questions that I ask is not, \u201cWhat are the couple\u2019s stressors?\u201d Because a good couple can handle stress. It\u2019s not even, \u201cWhat\u2019s the stance?\u201d Although that\u2019s really important. The biggest question is, \u201cWhich part of you am I speaking to?\u201d Am I speaking to the adult prefrontal cortex that can think and be deliberate and make choices? Or am I speaking to the triggered adaptive child, the wounded child, which is a knee-jerk reaction, automatic, unthought, compulsive?<\/span><\/p>\n

One of the great skills the er-skill I call it, the proto-skill, is shifting out of that triggered part of you back into the adult part of you and learning how to do that. I call that \u201crelational mindfulness.\u201d It really is the spiritual practice of relationship. When you\u2019re triggered, when you\u2019re flooded, I call it whoosh, W-H-O-O-S-H, like a wave that comes up over you. When you\u2019re flooded, take a break. Go somewhere. Do some breathing. Do some meditating. Walk around the block. Count to 10. Have a little talk with your adaptive child part.<\/span><\/p>\n

Do whatever you need to do, but don\u2019t come back into the fray until you\u2019re sane. Once you\u2019re sane, then you can use the skills. There\u2019s a technology to be used that most people just don\u2019t know because in our culture we don\u2019t teach it.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now, one of the things I learned from your work that I thought was very helpful, because I\u2019m somebody who when I feel triggered, I just want to withdraw. I just want to be alone for a while.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Ah. You\u2019re one of those.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Could you just leave me alone for a little while? But you say that responsible withdrawal involves two actions that I haven\u2019t been very good at, I must admit.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Until today.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>That\u2019s OK. Until now. Which is saying, \u201cThis is what I\u2019m doing, and I\u2019m going to come back.\u201d And making a commitment. \u201cI\u2019ll be back. Let\u2019s talk about it tomorrow,\u201d or something.<\/span><\/p>\n

So I think people do know when they\u2019re out of their mind, let\u2019s just call that triggered. I\u2019m not in a place right now for us to navigate this issue. But I don\u2019t think we\u2019re taught there\u2019s an action I\u2019m supposed to take when I feel that way.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>No. See, look. OK, you have been until today, what I call a \u201cprovocative distance taker.\u201d You just take it. I\u2019m outta here.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>I\u2019ll bet the ranch that you get chased a lot. Provocative distance takers get chased because you\u2019re not taking care of your partner. Taking care of your partner is, \u201cHey, listen. This is not a rupture. It\u2019s a break. So let me reassure you this is why I\u2019m taking the break. There\u2019s an explanation. And this is when I\u2019m coming back.\u201d What happens on a good day, you can\u2019t control it but it optimizes your chances, your partner listens to this and goes, \u201cOK. She\u2019ll be back. I don\u2019t have to go chase after her.\u201d And you actually get the distance.<\/span><\/p>\n

So that\u2019s a good example of what I mean by operating with more skill. You take care of your partner, you actually get the damn distance. Don\u2019t take care of your partner, and she\u2019s knocking at your door.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>How did you discover the core skills that you teach?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Bloodily. [laughs] People have asked me how I became a family therapist and I jokingly always say, \u201cI started about four years old in my dysfunctional family.\u201d I come from a violent, dysfunctional, depressed family and I was pretty messed up for most of my life. I write about it in I Don\u2019t Want to Talk About It. That\u2019s autobiographical in part. There\u2019s this old joke that therapists are people that have to be in therapy 40 hours a week.<\/span><\/p>\n

I had to learn how to be a therapist to heal myself. And then I had to learn how to be a couples and family therapist to figure out how to have a relationship. A lot of it is what I learned by many mentors, and a lot of it is trial and error in my 34-year marriage to the extraordinary Belinda Berman, who\u2019s been an incredible teacher. Sometimes Belinda and I will look at each other and smile and say, \u201cI just want to thank you for giving this opportunity to work on myself.\u201d [laughs]<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Really though, most of these skills came from your own personal laboratory versus some method that you were taught?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Yes. That\u2019s a big part of RLT. We don\u2019t hide behind a professional myth. We\u2019re in the mud with you. I will say to couples, \u201cLook. If you come from a dysfunctional culture, so do I. If you come from a dysfunctional family, so did I. And the skills that I\u2019m downloading to you are the same skills I use in my marriage every day. And on the days I don\u2019t use them, I look just as ugly as you two,\u201d which I do, by the way. Couples love hearing that from a therapist.<\/span><\/p>\n

So this is the path I walk every day. Really, my authority comes from my own \u2026 It\u2019s more like a 12-step sponsor than a therapist. My authority and all RLT therapists\u2019 authority comes from our own relational recovery. That\u2019s where the rubber hits the road. And that\u2019s where I\u2019ve learned most of this stuff.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now, in RLT, you offer a golden rule of relational empowerment and I want to make sure we talk about that because a golden rule\u2019s a big deal. And here\u2019s what you say the golden rule is, \u201cWhat can I give you to help you give me what I want?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Yes, isn\u2019t that cool?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>It\u2019s pretty cool.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>So give me some examples of the golden rule in action, how it works.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Belinda says to me, \u201cI would like you to be less defensive. When I confront you about something, I would like you to be empathic to my feelings and not be defensive about what\u2019s going on with you and try and deliver for me.\u201d And I say, \u201cOK. I\u2019m going to do that.\u201d On a good day, I say, \u201cOK. I can be defensive and I will try to work on that.\u201d She then follows up with, \u201cWhat could I do to help you be less defensive?\u201d And I say, \u201cYou could be less accusing and critical.\u201d And she says, \u201cOK. I\u2019ll work on that. How would I be less accusing and critical and still get it said?\u201d I say, \u201cWell, you might say instead of, \u2018You did this wrong,\u2019 \u2018This would be better for me.\u2019 Leave out what I did wrong and just tell me about what you want.\u201d And she\u2019ll say, \u201cOK. I\u2019ll work on that.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

So the minute you ask your parnter to do something and they come on board and say, \u201cOK, I\u2019ll try,\u201d You humbly put yourself at their service. \u201cWhat could I do to help you try that?\u201d Why would I do that? I call this \u201chelping them win.\u201d I want you to win because winning means you give me what the hell I want, so why wouldn\u2019t I want you to win? It\u2019s also called working like a team. It\u2019s also called thinking relationally instead of thinking linearly. I\u2019m in the system with you.<\/span><\/p>\n

Thinking relationally is synonymous with thinking ecologically. The relationship is your biosphere. I\u2019m not above it. That\u2019s the essential mistake of patriarchy, dominion over. It\u2019s not about dominion over. I have the humility of understanding that we\u2019re a component-part system and I am humbly a part of that system. So what can I do on my side of the seesaw to trigger a different response in you? That\u2019s my responsibility. That\u2019s called working a relationship, and you have to have humility to do that.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>OK. Let\u2019s take an example where one partner in the couple wants to have sex a lot more than the other partner. How could the golden rule of relational empowerment come into play?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Well, first of all, this is a good example of thinking relationally instead of thinking linearly. Linearly is, \u201cI want more sex in this relationship and you\u2019re not giving it to me.\u201d OK, well, how well is that going to go over? Relationally is, \u201cHoney, we both deserve to have a good sex life. This isn\u2019t it. What do you need? What can we do together to revitalize our sex life?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Which of those two approaches do you think is going to be more successful? \u201cWhat do you need from me in order for you to feel more sexual?\u201d \u201cWell, I need you to slow down. I need you to be less demanding. I need you to stop bitching about not having sex. I need you to light a few candles and have a little romance.\u201d \u201cOK. I\u2019ll do it.\u201d That\u2019s an excellent example of what I\u2019m talking about.<\/span><\/p>\n

See, couples come to see me and they\u2019re all essentialists. In other words, what\u2019s wrong with my partner? Them. That\u2019s what\u2019s wrong with them. What\u2019s wrong with Tami is her essential Tami-ness. Why doesn\u2019t she want to have sex? \u201cShe\u2019s just a frigid person like her mother.\u201d Then I get the woman in. Or let\u2019s say, I get the woman in and I say, \u201cWhy don\u2019t you want to have sex?\u201d It\u2019s, \u201cWell, he\u2019s a lousy lover. He\u2019s selfish. We can\u2019t talk about it. Blah blah blah blah.\u201d It turns out there\u2019s 50 things the person could do to warm up their partner. And it\u2019s the couples therapist\u2019s job to put you back in the picture, to say, \u201cListen, the reason why your partner is responding this way is, guess what? You. So if you change your behavior on your side of the seesaw, you may be able to influence the transaction between the two of you.\u201d That\u2019s thinking systemically. And that\u2019s what the therapist provides to the couple because they\u2019re not thinking that way themselves.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now, you mentioned that when people come to you, they often have this idea, \u201cMy partner\u2019s just frigid,\u201d or whatever. One of the phrases I learned from your work is the idea that we can have a Core Negative Image.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Yes. CNI.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>A CNI about our partner. I flashed on the CNI that I have about my partner and that was OK. And then I imagined the CNI that she had about me, and I thought\u2026<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>That\u2019s a little tougher.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>That\u2019s terrible. That\u2019s absolutely terrible.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>And completely wrong.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Well, yes. It was a frightening few moments there. What do we do though with the CNI that we have about our partner, this image, this Core Negative Image?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>It\u2019s a very helpful thing, unearthing your Core Negative Image of each other. First of all, one of the great things about it is it\u2019s consistent. For example, Belinda thinks of me, her CNI of me, is that I am a, let\u2019s see, an irresponsible, selfish, undependable, charming boy. So I have a CNI of her as being demanding, insatiable, critical, micromanaging witch. By the way, I don\u2019t mind outing ourselves because this is not a rare-<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>We\u2019re outing you, Terry.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>This is not a rare heterosexual pairing.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>OK.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>But anyway, here\u2019s the example. I leave the milk out of the refrigerator. This is true when the kids were little. They\u2019re grown now. And Belinda gets CNI triggered. So she starts talking to me like I\u2019m that irresponsible child. Now normally what I would do is I would react to her exaggerated imagery about me and I would say, \u201cOh come on. It\u2019s just a damn milk carton\u2026\u201d and I would try and get her out of her CNI. The devilish thing about this CNI stuff is the things that I would do to push against her CNI of me, confirm her CNI of me. \u201cOh come on, it\u2019s just a milk carton. Don\u2019t be such a bitch. Blah blah blah.\u201d And she\u2019s thinking, \u201cSee, I told you, you wouldn\u2019t be responsible.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Her CNI gets triggered of me. My CNI gets triggered of her. The two CNIs are battling with each other. I like to say, the couple can sit down and have a beer. The CNIs just duking it out with each other. There are numerous things you can do with this. First of all, is if you know what your CNI of your partner is, start to take it with a grain of salt. Your CNI of your partner is an exaggerated version of your partner at her worst. It\u2019s not her at baseline. It\u2019s certainly not her at best. And it\u2019s not even an accurate description of her at worst, it\u2019s just sort of like a\u2026<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Caricature.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>\u2026 yes, it\u2019s a caricature of her at her worst. It does have a seed of truth in it though. But it\u2019s just a seed. I say it\u2019s like looking at your partner through the wrong end of a telescope. It\u2019s like, \u201cOh my God. They\u2019re such an impossible jerk.\u201d Know that you\u2019re CNI triggered and relax a little bit. It helps with your boundaries. It helps you stay moderate. It helps you disbelieve your negative image.<\/span><\/p>\n

But the real juice comes when you know what her CNI of you is. Because her CNI of you is operating instructions. Can I ask what\u2019s your partner\u2019s first name is?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Oh my. Oh that part, yes, sure. Her name\u2019s Julie.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Julie. So anything that you do that comes close to her negative image of you, will trigger her. It will upset her. And conversely, anything that you do that\u2019s the opposite of those qualities, will make her happy, will chill her out. Your partner\u2019s CNI of you is actually a compass pointing in the opposite direction of where you need to go, consistently. It\u2019s operating instructions. So anything I do with my wife that looks irresponsible\u2026 I forget to pick up one of the kids and I\u2019m half an hour late or something. So she gets CNI triggered.<\/span><\/p>\n

I come home and she goes, \u201cI can\u2019t believe you did this. Blah blah blah.\u201d If I go, \u201cWell, you\u2019re making a big deal out of it. Blah blah blah.\u201d That\u2019s more CNI triggering. If I go, \u201cYou\u2019re absolutely right. I can be a total jerk. I\u2019m so sorry. Blah blah blah,\u201d and I take responsibility, well, that\u2019s the opposite of her CNI and she chills. Your CNI of your partner is something you want to take with a grain of salt. Your partner\u2019s CNI of you is something that you want to not get very close to, in fact, get as far away from as you can. Knowing what they are gives you a lot of instructions about how to work this person, how to be in a relationship.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>So someone\u2019s listening and they\u2019re thinking, \u201cI don\u2019t even know if my partner and I could share our CNI of each other\u2026\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Well, they\u2019re pretty explosive, yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>\u201c\u2026 without that being quite difficult and damaging.\u201d I know the subtitle of the program, the new program you\u2019ve created with Sounds True is, Standing Up to One Another with Love. In thinking of even just saying, \u201cHey, let\u2019s talk about our CNI. Let\u2019s go ahead. Let\u2019s do it.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Look-<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Is that standing up to one another with love?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>No. That\u2019s being dumb.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>No. That\u2019s not it. OK. Glad I checked that out with you.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>There\u2019s some skills that precede that. This is the highest risk exercise of all the exercises\u2026<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Oh, really?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>\u2026 sharing each other\u2019s CNI. Yes. This is live ammo. Before you do that, you have to have a modicum of recovery and self-esteem so you don\u2019t go into either one-down shame when you hear your partner\u2019s CNI of you, or one-up grandiosity and superiority,\u201dI can\u2019t believe you think that, you\u2026\u201d So you have to have a modicum of recovery around self-esteem and you have to have good boundaries, good internal boundaries, both of which I teach as part of the program.<\/span><\/p>\n

You have to have a little recovery onboard before you do this CNI exercise and particularly you have to have good boundaries. Good boundary means, well, \u201cThis is what Tami\u2019s making up about me. This is her CNI of me. Isn\u2019t that interesting? Isn\u2019t that important data about Tami?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Well, it has a seed of truth in it, too.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Well, the beauty in knowing your CNI is if I can instead of fighting, which is what most people do, most people react to the exaggeration in it and they fight against the exaggeration. If I can duck under that instead of oppose it and say, \u201cWell, you know, I really can be irresponsible and selfish some time,\u201d then things calm down. It\u2019s like the Chinese finger puzzle. The more you push against it, the tighter it gets, and the way out is to move into it instead of oppose it. You come at me and you go, \u201cTerry, you were supposed to be at this interview at 10:00, and you show up at 10:15. You\u2019re so irresponsible. You\u2019re so this. You\u2019re so that.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Instead of my saying, \u201cLook, OK, it was only 15 minutes,\u201d which would reinforce your CNI of me. If I were to say, \u201cYou\u2019re right, I was 15 minutes late. I can be selfish in those ways. It\u2019s a character defect of mine. I\u2019m really sorry. What could I do to help you feel better and calm down?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>That would be one way of addressing your CNI, but an even further step would be to make an extra effort to be on time, especially with your spouse, if you knew that was something that was really an issue for them. Correct?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Correct.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>But that would be going in the opposite direction.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Right. Because I know that Belinda\u2019s CNI of me is irresponsible and selfish, anything\u2026 if I know her CNI of me is irresponsible and selfish, back when the kids were young, I show up and I go, \u201cHoney, I\u2019ve arranged for a babysitter and a show.\u201d If I take the initiative and I\u2019m uber-responsible, she\u2019s glowing. And conversely, anything that I do that\u2019s sloppy and irresponsible will furrow her brow.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Well, people could make good use of this even if they\u2019re not ready to confront their spouse and share CNIs if that seems too explosive. Most of us kind of know. We kind of know.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>I think we know. I think we know. It has to be done from your functional adult. You can\u2019t use this exercise to clobber your partner. Keep it brief, four or five words. That\u2019s it. Own it. It\u2019s your production. This is my negative image of you at your worst. But unless somebody\u2019s extremely manipulative, like an addict or something, or a nut, they\u2019re CNI\u2026 Look, nobody would call Belinda an irresponsible child. And no one would call me too tight and controlling. This is not the person to the left or the right of you. It is you. It\u2019s very disarming to know it and own it.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Another idea that you bring forward is something you call normal marital hatred. I think part of the reason I went in this direction of there\u2019s a Core Negative Image that we have of our partner and even hatred in our marriage is normal, is that I think it\u2019s something we don\u2019t talk about a lot.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>We don\u2019t.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>And yet, I know it\u2019s in me. I think it\u2019s common. There\u2019s another relationship therapist, David Schnarch, who coined the term \u201cnormal marital sadism\u201d. So my wife and I have joked about that term in our marriage on occasion, when it\u2019s come up. It\u2019s like, \u201cthis is just an example of normal marital sadism.\u201d I actually think it\u2019s a healthy thing to be able to name. That this feeling of, \u201cI hate you right now,\u201d is actually \u201cnormal.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Yes. Isn\u2019t it great?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>It relieved me to hear that I\u2019m not just\u2026<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Yes. I\u2019m glad.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>\u2026 the only person with these terrible thoughts in my head. What do people do when they feel those feelings like-<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Normal marital hatred?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>First of all, I want to tell you I\u2019ve been talking about normal marital hatred for 25, 30 years.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>You\u2019re a pioneer, Terry.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Yes, I am. And not one person has ever come to me at the end of a talk and said, \u201cWhat do you mean by that?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Sure. We all know it.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>We all know what it is. Look, to be abstract for a moment, let me zoom out, do big picture. All relationships are a dance of harmony, disharmony, and repair. Closeness, disruption, and return to closeness. I got that from Ed Tronick\u2019s work, infant observational research out of Harvard. The baby\u2019s molded loose as a noodle. Mother and child are like totally great and then there\u2019s some gas or a noise and the baby freaks out and the mother freaks out. Everybody\u2019s freaking out trying to regulate each other, and then the nipple\u2019s accepted or the gas passes and then we\u2019re back to molded again.<\/span><\/p>\n

What Tronick discovered is, that is the rhythm of relationship. Closeness, disruption, return to closeness. I\u2019ve transposed that to adult relationships. I talk about the harmony phase, the disillusionment phase, and the mature phase. Closeness, disruption, repair. By the way, that\u2019s where all the skills come, how to move from disruption to repair. Well, we don\u2019t acknowledge in our culture that the disillusionment phase even exists, let alone what to do with it. The first thing is to get on the table that that disruption phase, whether it\u2019s momentary or whether it\u2019s months or even it could be a couple years in a marriage. First of all, that doesn\u2019t mean you\u2019re in a bad marriage, it just means you\u2019re in a marriage.<\/span><\/p>\n

Second of all, it can be dark. It can be really\u2026 The father of couples therapy, James Framo once said, this is back in the \u201950s when it was assumed the person you were sleeping with was your spouse. He said, \u201cThe day you turn to the person sleeping next to you and you say to yourself, \u2018Oh my God, I\u2019ve been had. This is not the person I fell in love with. This is a dreadful mistake. This is impossible.\u2019 That day,\u201d says Framo, \u201cis the first day of your real marriage.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

See, to be abstract for a moment, I believe that what we long for is the divine. What we long for are gods or goddesses that are going to complete us and never let us down and perfect us. And what we\u2019re stuck with is an imperfect human being who has all sorts of warts and moles just like we do. What\u2019s lost in our culture is that it\u2019s exactly the collision of your particular imperfections with mine and how we manage that together. That is the stuff of intimacy. That\u2019s the guts of intimacy. I wouldn\u2019t want a perfect relationship. That\u2019s what drives us deep. But you have to know how to get from that disillusionment into addressing things.<\/span><\/p>\n

I have to take that normal marital hatred and I have to say, \u201cLook. The reason why I\u2019m despising you right now is because for the last four months you\u2019ve barely said hello to me.\u201d Or, \u201cBecause every time we go out in public, you demean me.\u201d Or, \u201cBecause, because, because.\u201d There are reasons and they need to be addressed, but most people don\u2019t know how to do that.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>OK. There\u2019s one more observation from your work that really struck me that I want to highlight. You said, \u201cIf you want to work on your relationship, you have to totally let go of the facts of the situation and just honor the other\u2019s understanding. Objective reality has no place in close personal relationships.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>It\u2019s a bitch, isn\u2019t it?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I thought that was pretty big.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>It\u2019s a bitter pill.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Yes. Let go of the facts.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Let go of the facts. The relational answer to the question, \u201cWho\u2019s right and who\u2019s wrong?\u201d is, \u201cWho cares?\u201d Who cares? The real question is, how are you and I going to work this through in a way that\u2019s going to work for both of us? Who\u2019s right and who\u2019s wrong is one of my five losing strategies. It\u2019s called being right. You try to \u201csolve your differences\u201d by coming to one right conclusion about what really did happen last Tuesday or whose feelings are really valid, or who\u2019s doing what to whom. Good luck. Good luck with that. It doesn\u2019t matter.<\/span><\/p>\n

What matters is, I care about you. You\u2019re unhappy with something. What can I do to help you get happier because I want you to be happier because I live with you? To say nothing of the fact that I love you, I just have to deal with you. So it\u2019s in my interest to help you feel better. It\u2019s got nothing to do with whether it really did or didn\u2019t happen. I call this relational jiu-jitsu. You don\u2019t oppose your partner when they\u2019re unhappy or giving you feedback, you duck under the wave and meet the resistance. You don\u2019t oppose the resistance.<\/span><\/p>\n

Another winning golden rule is the phrase, \u201cWhat could I do that would help you feel better right now?\u201d Just that.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Could I write that down? No, I\u2019m just kidding. That\u2019s good.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>What can I say or do that would help you feel better right now? I\u2019m sorry you feel bad. How simple is that? But it means that you put yourself in the service of your partner. It\u2019s not a dialogue. Therapy has tried to promote this idea of dialogue. That is just terrible. It\u2019s not a dialogue, it\u2019s a one-way street. You\u2019re in a state of disrepair. I don\u2019t want you to feel bad. What can I do to help you come back into repair? You\u2019re not interested in me. You talk to me about your unhappiness and what do most of us do? Well, I talk to you about my unhappiness with you. I\u2019ll go tit for tat. Or I\u2019ll explain why you shouldn\u2019t be unhappy with me or I\u2019ll rebut it in some way.<\/span><\/p>\n

I like to say, your partner comes you in a state of unhappiness. You\u2019re at the customer service window. Somebody comes to the customer service window and says, \u201cMy microwave doesn\u2019t work.\u201d They don\u2019t want to hear you say, \u201cWell, my toaster doesn\u2019t work.\u201d They want you to give them a new microwave. Take care of your partner. Then they might have some interest in your explanations of your experience. But that comes last.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>That sounds good. I like that idea. This is the customer service window. But if I\u2019m feeling resentful, I don\u2019t want to\u2026 I want to talk about my broken toaster.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Well, that\u2019s the adaptive child part of you. The functional adult part of you can take a breath and go, \u201cYes, I want to talk about my issues, but it\u2019s not my turn right now. And I know that that\u2019s not going to work. I\u2019m going to go through door B this time. That\u2019s about making\u2026\u201d Look, this is very grown-up stuff, these skills. You have to be grown-up to pull it off.<\/span><\/p>\n

I talk about, my institute is always financially on the ropes, as all institutes are. I have a million merchandising ideas that we\u2019ll never do. One of them is a T-shirt, on the front it would read something like, relational living and on the back it would read, \u201cI choose door B.\u201d You take a breath. You know what door he\u2019s going to get you. \u201cWell, I want to talk to you about my damn toaster.\u201d Well, you know how that\u2019s going to go. This minute, this one time, I\u2019m going to listen to you talk about your microwave. And I\u2019m going to see if that goes better. I\u2019m going to choose door B. That\u2019s what relational mindfulness is all about, keeping your wits about you and doing it differently.<\/span><\/p>\n

I talk about second consciousness. Your first consciousness is your automatic response. \u201cWell, your microwave, my toaster.\u201d Your second consciousness cuts in\u2014and you can cultivate this. That\u2019s the beauty. Second consciousness cuts in and goes, \u201cI know what\u2019s going to happen if I do that. This minute I\u2019m going to do this instead of that.\u201d One of the things I say is, everybody says relationships are work, but nobody tells you what it is. The real work of relationships are not even day by day, it\u2019s minute to minute. In this minute right here, am I going to do the same old same old or am I going to take a breath, get relationally mindful, and then choose something that\u2019s more functional? That\u2019s the actual practice of living relationally.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Of all the skills that you teach, what\u2019s the hardest one for you to put into action?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Oh, relational jiu-jitsu is the hardest one. Belinda comes at me, \u201cTerry, you this,\u201d and, \u201cTerry, you that,\u201d and \u201cTerry, the other thing.\u201d It would be easier if she were in her functional adult. The hardest skill is meeting immoderateness with moderateness. When my partner comes at me and she\u2019s in her adaptive child, man, I just want to go right into the mud pit with her.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Right.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>The art of taking a deep breath, digging down deep, and staying in my functional adult when Belinda\u2019s not in her functional adult, that\u2019s really hard. What I tell people is, you try a couple, three times to see if you can get your partner to be reasonable with you. \u201cOh honey, I\u2019m sorry. I didn\u2019t mean it like that. I can see how you feel bad, but let me\u2026\u201d You try that a couple, three times, if it doesn\u2019t work, you take a break. Stop beating your head against the wall.<\/span><\/p>\n

I\u2019m from Boston and so I have the southeast Boston, blue-collar south Boston Irish. I had a guy, I said, \u201cWhen your wife won\u2019t come through, try a couple, three times, and then go make a sandwich.\u201d He came to me three months later. He said, \u201cHey, Doc. Can you give me something else to do? I\u2019m getting fat.\u201d [laughs] For me, I call this relational integrity. If you\u2019re in your functional adult and your partner\u2019s in his or her functional adult, that\u2019s gravy. If you\u2019re in your functional adult, your partner\u2019s out of her mind and you dig down deep and you don\u2019t go out of your mind with her, that\u2019s relational integrity. That\u2019s riding a bike uphill.<\/span><\/p>\n

It doesn\u2019t feel very good. It takes a lot of discipline, but it builds strong muscles. I have a saying, in a long-term relationship, everybody gets to go crazy but you have to take turns. If every time A gets crazy, B gets crazy with him, you\u2019re done. So when Belinda comes at me with self-righteous\u2026 We\u2019re both fighters. And if she comes at me with self-righteous energy or accusation or whatever, the adult thing to do is say something like, \u201cB, I want to hear you. Could you tone it down so I can hear you better?\u201d The whoosh in me is like, \u201cWho the hell do you think you are talking to me like\u2026\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Taking a breath, containing\u2026 That\u2019s boundary work. Containing that impulse, settling into my adult, holding myself in warm regard, holding her in warm regard even though she\u2019s out of her mind, and doing whatever I can to make things better, that moment right there, that\u2019s a tough moment.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Well, and if you\u2019re at the customer service desk, then you would even be this crazy person has come with their broken microwave and they\u2019re crazy about it, you would even be looking at, \u201cHow can I help you?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>You know what? People do this all the time. This is particularly true for men. If somebody comes at you and they\u2019re kind of inflamed, what they\u2019re saying may have a lot of validity, but 999 out of 1000 people will react to the inflammation, the bad delivery. \u201cWell, don\u2019t you talk to me like that or blah blah blah blah.\u201d Part of ducking under the wave is instead of paying attention to the delivery, pay attention to the point the person\u2019s trying to make. Duck under it.<\/span><\/p>\n

Belinda comes at me, \u201cBlah blah blah blah.\u201d\u2026 and on a good day, and I really do sound like this on a good day. On a good day, instead of, \u201cDon\u2019t you talk to me like that!\u201d Or even, \u201cHoney, could you please calm down?\u201d Which is OK, that\u2019s a good B plus. But an A is, \u201cGosh, you know, you\u2019re right. I did do blah blah blah and I could see why you would feel bad about that and I\u2019m sorry.\u201d You just disarm it. It\u2019s pretty egoless.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Well, I noticed when you used the customer service metaphor, that\u2019s very helpful for me. We have a customer service department here at Sounds True and I understand that idea, so that\u2019s very helpful.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Yes. You\u2019ve got to satisfy the dissatisfied person. It\u2019s what I call keeping your wits about you. What are you about right now? Are you about proving that you\u2019re right and arguing? One of the things I say is, if you lead with an argument, you\u2019ll get an argument. I talk about keeping your eyes on the prize. Belinda and I used to fight for days 20 years ago. We don\u2019t anymore, very rarely. What happens now is, and I say this to the couples I work with all the time, what happens now is we\u2019ll get into a fight. One or the other of us will take a break, a responsible break. \u201cI\u2019m taking a break. I\u2019ll come back.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

We come back 15, 20 minutes, maybe up to an hour. And it sounds something like this. \u201cHey, honey, I don\u2019t want to fight. Do you want to fight? I don\u2019t want to fight. What do you need?\u201d \u201cWell,\u201d says Belinda, \u201cYou could really apologize for blah blah blah.\u201d \u201cOK, got it. I am sorry.\u201d \u201cWhat do you need?\u201d \u201cWell, Belinda, you could really say you\u2019re accountable about blah blah blah.\u201d \u201cOK, I got it.\u201d Now, the reason why it works, what I\u2019m really honestly thinking when I go back and I say, \u201cI don\u2019t want to fight,\u201d is, how do I want to spend my evening? Do I want to spend my evening fighting or do I want to cuddle on the couch and watch a great TV show?<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s really about me taking responsibility about, do I want door A or am I going to try door B? That\u2019s my job.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Just two final questions, Terry. Your audio series with Sounds True is called Fierce Intimacy.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>What\u2019s the fierce part?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Well, we haven\u2019t talked about this, but I believe that because people don\u2019t know how to do it, I gotta give them that. What happens in relationships is that we stop telling the truth to each other. We stop taking each other on. When you stop taking each other on, the first casualty is passion. You say that you\u2019re compromising, but really you\u2019re settling and you resent it like hell. Resentment builds. Generosity dies. Passion dies. It\u2019s really a bad deal.<\/span><\/p>\n

I want people to really grab each other by the collar and deal with each other. I really don\u2019t like it when you dot dot dot. I really would prefer if you dot dot dot. But you have to do it with love. If you do it with self-righteous indignation, you\u2019re done. There\u2019s an art. I talk about this in length on the tape. Can I tell you a story?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Yes, yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>I\u2019ll tell you how this was born.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Sure.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>It was my friend, Alan Slobodnik, who taught me this, a therapist who\u2019s in recovery himself. I was at his house at a barbecue with my wife and kids and his family. And long story short, he did something that really got to me, really pissed me off. And I got into self-righteous indignation as I can do. I have that fault line. I was just pasting the guy. It was a hot moment between us. I was yelling, basically, and when he came back at me, his whole body was trembling. His voice was trembling. He was red. It was serious. Here\u2019s what he said to me, Tami.<\/span><\/p>\n

He said, \u201cListen.\u201d He was like, intense. He said, \u201cListen. The first and most important thing I want you to understand is that I love you. You\u2019re my best friend. You\u2019re going to be one of my best friends \u2018til the day I die. The rest of what I\u2019m going to say has nothing to do with that. I want to be clear. Now, I grew up in a rageful family as you well know. I invite you to my family, to my barbecue, you come up on my porch, and you unleash that kind of rage at me in front of my wife and kid. I want to tell you, I don\u2019t like it. Now, I can\u2019t control you, Terry. I don\u2019t even want to. You\u2019re going to do what you do, but if you come at me with that energy which I spent my life divesting of, I\u2019m going to tell you in no uncertain terms just how much I don\u2019t like it. And brother, I don\u2019t like it. Am I making myself clear?\u201d That\u2019s what he said to me. Here\u2019s what I said to him. You ready? He had me.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Yes. You couldn\u2019t say anything.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>He had me. He had me with, \u201cTerry, the first thing I want to tell you is I love you.\u201d I\u2019m a fighter. If he\u2019d come at me with rage, I would have known exactly what to do. But that one just opened my heart. So I began to experiment with, and now teach my couples, I go into it in great detail in the tape, how to cherish your partner and cherish the relationship in the same breath as standing up for yourself. It sounds like this. It\u2019s the difference between saying for example, \u201cTami, I don\u2019t like how you\u2019re talking to me.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Right.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Instead, it turns into, \u201cTami, I really want to hear what you have to say. You\u2019re important to me. Could you tone it down so I could listen?\u201d They\u2019re two ways of saying the same thing. But one\u2019s going to get it done and one isn\u2019t.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Can you give me a couple other examples in a marriage?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Well, you mentioned the sex thing. There\u2019s a difference between, \u201cYou\u2019re not giving me the sex that I deserve.\u201d Or saying, \u201cHoney, we both deserve to have a good sex life. I really miss you. What can I do to help you be more sexual with me?\u201d You start off by appreciating the partner.<\/span><\/p>\n

You start off with your intention. \u201cHoney, I want to be close to you right now, and the way that you\u2019re dealing with me is pushing me far away. Now, you don\u2019t really want to push me far away. Can you deal with me differently so that I can stay close to you?\u201d You stay with the intention. You honor the partner and you honor the relationship at the same time you tell the truth about what\u2019s going on. It takes a little practice.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>OK. Here\u2019s my final question, but I\u2019m going to begin it actually with a statement. Which is, I believe that the skills you\u2019re teaching and the skills of being in a long-term, committed relationship that is really alive and joyful and happy, deep partnership, are the skills that will help us evolve as a human species. They are the necessary skills. I personally believe that. And I\u2019m really committed to it. It\u2019s something that\u2019s really important to me.<\/span><\/p>\n

You\u2019re the relationship therapist, so this is your profession. I\u2019m just a person in a relationship that believes that this is an evolutionary path, not just for me, but for humans. So I\u2019m wondering how you see it, how you see these skills that we learn in our committed partnership translating into actually being a salvation\u2014strong language\u2014for our culture, for our world?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>Well, I talk about leading men and women out of patriarchy. It\u2019s an old-fashioned word, but patriarchy really means dominion, power over instead of power with, as Riane Eisler put it. I think it\u2019s the essential mistake of humanity. I think that thinking relationally is synonymous with thinking ecologically, and it\u2019s wise. It\u2019s moving from blindness to wisdom. It\u2019s putting it in the paycheck. This is a spiritual practice. This is an evolutionary practice. But it\u2019s not like you sit down on the couch or sit on your pillow and get high. There\u2019s a place for that.<\/span><\/p>\n

But it\u2019s about bringing that sense of \u2026 I talk about what I call deathbed consciousness. You and I are having a big fight and God forbid, the phone rings and the cancer is malignant. What happens to the fight? It\u2019s gone. Now it\u2019s just how much I love you. And I want you to be in that deathbed consciousness every minute of your life, and go from there. I call it \u201ckeeping your wits about you\u201d or \u201cremembering love.\u201d Remembering that the person you\u2019re dealing with is someone you care about and the reason why you\u2019re opening up your mouth is to make it better. Staying in that centered, adult part of us, or if you want to say it differently, staying in that spiritual part of us. They\u2019re really synonyms for each other.<\/span><\/p>\n

This is about bringing that evolutionary spiritual practice into our daily living, not \u2026 in relationship to ourselves, that\u2019s an important part. But you know, I sit Zen or I sat Zen for a number of years. When I was writing I Don\u2019t Want to Talk About It, I sat with my Zen teacher and he said, \u201cHow are you doing?\u201d I said, \u201cI\u2019m manic. I\u2019m jazzed. I think I have figured out the essence of male violence and what to do about it. I think I might save the planet.\u201d And he said, \u201cGreat.\u201d I said, \u201cLook, from a Zen perspective, what would you say to that?\u201d And he would say, \u201cHow have you been treating Belinda?\u201d And in fact, I\u2019d been a jerk to Belinda because I was so consumed with how grand I was.<\/span><\/p>\n

Put it in the paycheck. Bring that evolution here. One of the things I say is, we may not be able to bring peace to the Mid East or to Syria or whatever, but we can bring peace to our living rooms and our bedroom. So start with your life. And our life is relationships. So learn how to do that and learn how to do it well.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Terry, I so enjoyed talking with you. Thank you.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>You\u2019re welcome, my dear.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Thank you.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>It\u2019s been great.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Terry Real is the author of the book, <\/span>The New Rules of Marriage<\/span><\/i>, and with Sounds True has created a new audio learning series called <\/span>Fierce Intimacy<\/span><\/i>. Thank you so much.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TR: <\/b>You\u2019re welcome.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Thank you for listening to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>. You can read a full transcript of today’s interview at soundstrue.com\/podcast. And if you’re interested, hit the subscribe button in your podcast app. And also, if you feel inspired, head to iTunes and leave <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i> a review. I love getting your feedback, being in connection with you, and learning how we can continue to evolve and improve our program. Working together, I believe we can create a kinder and wiser world. SoundsTrue.com: waking up the world.<\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"template":"","meta":{"_expiration-date-status":"","_expiration-date":0,"_expiration-date-type":"","_expiration-date-categories":[],"_expiration-date-options":[]},"class_list":["post-9072","transcript","type-transcript","status-publish","hentry"],"yoast_head":"\nFierce Intimacy - Transcript | Sounds True<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Fierce Intimacy. 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