{"id":9224,"date":"2021-07-13T11:27:54","date_gmt":"2021-07-13T17:27:54","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?post_type=transcript&p=9224"},"modified":"2021-07-13T11:27:54","modified_gmt":"2021-07-13T17:27:54","slug":"the-full-spectrum-of-awareness","status":"publish","type":"transcript","link":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/the-full-spectrum-of-awareness\/","title":{"rendered":"The Full Spectrum of Awareness"},"content":{"rendered":"
\"image_print\"Print Transcript<\/span><\/a><\/div>

Tami Simon:<\/b> Welcome to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i> produced by Sounds True. My name is Tami Simon. I\u2019m the founder of Sounds True. And I\u2019d love to take a moment to introduce you to the new Sounds True Foundation. The Sounds True Foundation is dedicated to creating a wiser and kinder world by making transformational education widely available. We want everyone to have access to transformational tools, such as mindfulness, emotional awareness, and self-compassion, regardless of financial, social, or physical challenges.<\/span><\/p>\n

The Sounds True Foundation is a nonprofit dedicated to providing these transformational tools to communities in need, including at-risk youth, prisoners, veterans, and those in developing countries. If you\u2019d like to learn more or feel inspired to become a supporter, please visit SoundsTrueFoundation.org.<\/span><\/p>\n

You\u2019re listening to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>. Today, my guest is Diana Winston. Diana is the director of Mindfulness Education at UCLA\u2019s Mindful Awareness Research Center. She\u2019s a well-known teacher, called by the <\/span>LA Times<\/span><\/i> one of the nation\u2019s best-known teachers of mindfulness. She developed the evidence-based Mindful Awareness Practices curriculum, called MAPS, and the Training in Mindfulness Facilitation, which trains mindfulness teachers worldwide. With Sounds True, Diana Winston has written the book <\/span>The Little Book of Being: Practices and Guidance for Uncovering Your Natural Awareness<\/span><\/i>. And also, she\u2019s created a new audio teaching series. It\u2019s called <\/span>Glimpses of Being: A Training Course in Expanding Mindful Awareness<\/span><\/i>.<\/span><\/p>\n

In our conversation, Diana introduces us\u2014as she says, this is a very experiential podcast\u2014she introduces us to what she calls the spectrum of awareness, moving from being very narrow in our awareness to totally, absolutely expansive, open, infinite. Come take this ride with me. Here\u2019s my conversation with Diana Winston.<\/span><\/p>\n

To begin, Diana, on a personal note, I wonder if you can share with our listeners how you first came to the practice of mindful awareness.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Diana Winston:<\/b> Well, I got started right after college when I was very lost and confused and depressed and not sure what I was doing with my life. And I was traveling around Asia. This was the late \u201980s. And I ended up in Dharamshala, where the Dalai Lama has government in exile. And I did\u2014everybody was into Buddhism, and I was not at all. I was a political activist. And I thought, \u201cBuddhism? Why would I get into that?\u201d But everybody was doing it, sort of peer pressure. So I ended up getting interested in taking some courses.<\/span><\/p>\n

And I remember early on sitting in the back of a course with a big bar of chocolate and unwrapping it very loudly and being quite skeptical. But at some point, I decided to try a meditation retreat, and this actually wasn\u2019t mindfulness. This was more in the Tibetan style. And they talked about what they call the \u201cworldly winds\u201d or the truths about the world. There\u2019s praise and blame, and gain and loss, and pleasure and pain, and fame and disrepute, these pairs, these pairs of opposites. And when I heard them talk about it, suddenly this light bulb went off in my head.<\/span><\/p>\n

And I thought, \u201cOh, my goodness, this explains my life.\u201d Because what they were saying was that we go searching madly for the good stuff, the pleasure and the gain, the praise, and we go running away from the hard stuff. And that our life is like this roller coaster. And I could feel that part of me, the one that had achieved so much up until that point. I had done well, got into a good college, all of these\u2014it all fell away. And I went, \u201cOh, this explains my life. Now what?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

At which point, the teacher said something to the effect of, \u201cBut there is a solution, and that is having a mind of peace, finding a mind of equanimity, of balance, that you can have no matter what\u2019s happening in life.\u201d And that\u2019s what grabbed me, and I just thought, \u201cI want that, I want that.\u201d And from there I dove into, well, I did a deep dive into meditative practices and, within a few months, found mindfulness in the monasteries of Thailand and began to practice in the US and then Asia for quite some time over that first decade of practice.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>And at this point, you\u2019ve done a lot of different kinds of meditation. And in your new audio training course with Sounds True, <\/span>Glimpses of Being<\/span><\/i>, you put it all together. You introduce mindful awareness, a training course in expanding mindful awareness, in an interesting way. And I wonder if you can share your \u201cmap,\u201d if you will, when it comes to teaching meditation.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DW:<\/b> So, yes, as you\u2019re saying, I have studied many different practices, mostly in the realm of awareness practices because there\u2019s so many different types of meditation. And the analogy I like to use is that meditation is like a big giant category, like sports is a giant category. And there\u2019s hundreds and hundreds of types of sports and categories of sports. And the same with meditation. There\u2019s many different types of meditations. So there\u2019s people who do healing meditations, or people do Transcendental Meditation that concentrates the mind, for instance.<\/span><\/p>\n

This is a category, a MAP, for awareness-based meditations. And those are the ones that have been my main study over these years. So the MAP I call the \u201cspectrum of awareness\u201d: it\u2019s this idea that our ability to be aware can work in many different ways, from very narrow to very wide open. And we are constantly, throughout the day, moving between these types of awareness. So, if you\u2019re driving, you do not want to have a totally focused in front of you awareness. You\u2019ve got to have a fairly spacious peripheral awareness, or you might crash.<\/span><\/p>\n

So this awareness is moving in different directions all the time. And what we can learn to do through this MAP is we can start to see what practices cultivate what types of awareness, because different meditative teachings teach different things. And it\u2019s really interesting when you start to say, \u201cOK, I studied with this teacher, and I learned this type of meditation. And I studied with another teacher and learned another type. But they\u2019re both mindfulness, I think, but they\u2019re really different. How do they make sense?\u201d And that was my idea behind creating this MAP.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> I think it\u2019s so useful because I think people get really confused, as you said. They learn one style of awareness-based meditation from one teacher, something different. And there\u2019s rampant confusion, and yet I think you\u2019ve created a MAP of the spectrum of awareness, where people can say, \u201cOh, I can place this practice here, this practice there.\u201d So let\u2019s get a feel for it. I wonder if you can take us through the spectrum and maybe give us an experiential sense from the most narrow to the most expanded. Can we do that?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DW:<\/b> Yes, absolutely. And I first want to just throw out a really simple analogy because it helps people to understand what I\u2019m talking about here: the idea of a camera. So a camera can take a photograph that has a telephoto lens that\u2019s really narrow. You\u2019re looking at something up close. Can take an ordinary picture, can take a panoramic lens picture, wide open. And so, in the same way, our awareness can be narrow, it can be mid-range, it can be broad.<\/span><\/p>\n

And there are associated practices that go with each of these. So let\u2019s start with the most narrow. Now, the most narrow is what I call \u201cfocused awareness.\u201d And focused awareness is exactly what it sounds like. It\u2019s when you\u2019re focusing your attention on something and you\u2019re staying with that thing. No matter what is pulling you away, your thoughts, the sound from the outside, whatever it is, you stay focused on whatever you\u2019re focusing on, which typically is your breathing, but it could be something else. So this practice is really, really helpful, especially when you\u2019re starting out. It helps to calm our mind, bring clarity, bring stability to mind. So, most of you, if you\u2019ve practiced mindfulness, you\u2019ve probably practiced in this way. It\u2019s what\u2019s typically taught. So let\u2019s do it a little bit just so you get a sense of it experientially.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Wonderful.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DW:<\/b> So I just invite you, wherever you are, to settle back. And if you\u2019re driving, don\u2019t close your eyes. Take a breath or two. And notice your breath, bring your attention to your breath. You might notice your abdomen rising and falling, or your chest expanding and contracting, or maybe you feel the air moving through your nose. So let yourself land on one of those areas and stay with it, feel it, sense it. Expansion, contraction, rising, falling. And then your attention might get pulled away, it probably will, and just come right back.<\/span><\/p>\n

So you\u2019re with your breath, your attention gets pulled away. You bring it right back. So try it for a moment. Focusing. Started thinking about something. No problem, just come back to your breath. And we\u2019ll pause. So this, as I said, is probably something most of you who have done at least mindfulness meditation have practiced in this way. And I\u2019m wondering, Tami, you, of course, are very, very familiar with this. And when you did it, I\u2019m sure \u2026 well, tell me, what happened for you?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Well, it\u2019s like a tight focus is the way I think about it, and really tethering my mind directly to that breathing process. And I liked it doing it here with you. I felt calm and focused and centered. It was enjoyable.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DW:<\/b> Oh, good. Yes, it is a tethering your mind. So what I\u2019m teaching in these different ways of being aware, of these different awareness practices, there are different uses for each of the practices. If you sit down to meditate\u2014let\u2019s say you already have a practice\u2014you sit down to meditate, your mind is all over the place, thinking about a million things. Just do this simple practice. It\u2019s so helpful. It\u2019s so worthwhile. It calms and concentrates our mind. It builds concentration. So that\u2019s the focused awareness category in this. That\u2019s that area.<\/span><\/p>\n

And then what happens as we do it now is we\u2019re going to move a little more expansive, move from focus to what I call \u201cinvestigative awareness,\u201d or sometimes it\u2019s called \u201cflexible awareness,\u201d our awareness is more flexible here. Flexible awareness or investigative awareness, let\u2019s just use that for now, is where we don\u2019t only stay on our breathing. We\u2019re not trying to tether ourselves so much. We still use that, but we also are noticing what else is happening in our experience. We\u2019re investigating. So maybe an emotion arises, and we pay attention to it.<\/span><\/p>\n

So, in the first one, if an emotion arises, we just let it be in the background. In the second one, when an emotion arises, we check in, we feel. What am I feeling in my body, in my heart? What\u2019s happening? There\u2019s constriction in my belly. There\u2019s tightness. So we notice what pulls us away and then we come back, and we do it in the spirit of understanding, investigating our world. So some people think that mindfulness practice is just what we did in the first one, but it\u2019s not. It actually includes an ability to be aware of many things that are happening in our experience. So I\u2019m going to demo this one.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Wonderful.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DW:<\/b> OK. So settling back into a comfortable posture. Your back can be upright if that\u2019s accessible to you. And eyes can be closed if it\u2019s safe. And if it doesn\u2019t feel comfortable, leave them open. That\u2019s fine. Let your attention come to rest on your breathing. So can you feel your breath? Maybe it was in your abdomen, in your chest or nose. Feeling the breath. Now, don\u2019t just stay with your breath. If something pulls you away, this time notice it. Don\u2019t immediately come back to your breathing. But see what pulled you away.<\/span><\/p>\n

Maybe it was a sound from outside. Maybe it was a thought, a memory. Maybe it\u2019s an emotion, a body sensation. So staying with your breath. Something pulls you away, notice it and then come back. And now, let\u2019s actually investigate actively. Notice what you\u2019re feeling in your chest area. Any kind of emotion that\u2019s present for you? Maybe there\u2019s sadness or anxiety or irritation. Maybe you feel constriction or tightness, warmth. See if you can let whatever is here be here. Breathe. Soften. And now, come back to your breath.<\/span><\/p>\n

So, noticing that, take another ten seconds on your own just to see what\u2019s happening. Letting whatever is here be here. And then let\u2019s open our eyes if they\u2019re closed. We\u2019ll end that. So this is pretty different than what you did, but it\u2019s still related to the first one. It\u2019s similar in some ways, because you still stay connected to your focus, or some people call it a \u201cmeditation anchor.\u201d But you have a little bit more room to roam here and to explore. So I\u2019m curious, Tami, what happened for you when you did that?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Yes. For me, it just reminded me of what one of my dogs is like when we go outside together in the yard, and she\u2019s sniffing all around. And then she comes back to me, but then she goes and sniffs all over the place and comes back.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DW:<\/b> That is awesome. I love that. And my dog is the same. Yes. So it gives you more permission to include your experience. And as we do this practice over\u2014as you do this investigative awareness practice, you start to \u2026 it leads to insight. So this is really the territory of what we might think of as Insight meditation, because we start to see the changing nature of things. We start to see that things don\u2019t really belong to us. They move through us. They come and go. And this is this territory of investigation.<\/span><\/p>\n

And it\u2019s also a pretty interesting territory. It\u2019s much less narrow, it\u2019s a little more open. So let\u2019s try the third one. And the third one is what I call \u201cchoiceless awareness.\u201d It\u2019s also called open awareness. And this is akin to when we just sit and notice our experience moment after moment. In the Zen world, it\u2019s called <\/span>shikantaza<\/span><\/i>. It\u2019s just sitting. It\u2019s noticing whatever is arising as it arises. And I\u2019m going to show it to you in a fun, playful way that you can even do with kids, for instance, because it\u2019s a nice way to get a sense of this one. It\u2019s a nice way to get a sense of this one.<\/span><\/p>\n

So, if you want to, once again, settle back. The key thing with this particular type of awareness is that we don\u2019t go back to our focus. We don\u2019t need to go back to our breath, because our mind is stable and clear and can notice whatever is happening. So, first, I just invite you to notice the sounds. There may be sounds in the room that you\u2019re in, sounds outside. So notice the sounds as they come and go. Just noticing them, not getting lost in a story. Just noticing the sounds. Now, bring your attention into your body. Can you feel any sensations in your body?<\/span><\/p>\n

There\u2019s movement, heaviness, tingling, warmth, vibration. Maybe one area is really obvious to you. Maybe different things are happening in your body. Now, once again, notice what\u2019s happening for you and your emotions. Is there a particular emotion here like sadness or joy, frustration? Simply notice and feel. What am I feeling right now? How about my thoughts? Can I notice my thoughts? What\u2019s happening? Planning, imagining, remembering. OK. Now, let\u2019s go to some other things we don\u2019t normally notice when we meditate, but how about smells?<\/span><\/p>\n

Can you smell anything? Any scents? How about taste? OK, so these are all the possible things we might\u2014I forgot visual. Do you see anything behind your eyes, or if your eyes are open? And now, I just invite you to be with whatever happened. So take away all the rules and just notice what\u2019s happening one thing after the next, the sound, a memory, a sensation, your breath, an itch, a feeling. Let\u2019s see what happens just for a short time. Go. And feel your feet on the ground. Just feel that contact with the floor. And we\u2019ll end that brief meditation. OK. What happened for you, Tami?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> For me, that felt wild, wild and open. I didn\u2019t know where it was going to go. So it was, yes, enjoyable. Wild.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DW:<\/b> I love that word. It\u2019s a lot of permission, right? This type of open awareness or choiceless awareness sometimes shows up in our meditation practices, and we don\u2019t even know. Wait a minute, it\u2019s hard for me to pay attention to my breathing, but I can notice everything else. Oh, this is part of being aware. This is another practice on the spectrum of awareness. But it also for some people can feel overwhelming, like it\u2019s too much, and that\u2019s fine, too. And as I often talk about, they\u2019re all really valuable. They\u2019re equally valuable.<\/span><\/p>\n

So if you just did that practice and it felt like too much, then stay with the ones that feel more comfortable. Shall I move to the last one?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Yes. Let\u2019s do it.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DW:<\/b> OK. So the last one is what I call \u201cnatural awareness.\u201d And natural awareness is the broadest, it\u2019s the most effortless. It\u2019s the awareness that comes when we start to realize that awareness is already present. It\u2019s a little bit of a mental shift. The rest of them we\u2019re working at, but this one is a resting in awareness itself. So wherever you are, last time, I invite you to just settle back one more time. And you\u2019ve just already done a fairly open awareness practice. So, now, you might notice there\u2019s many things happening. I invite you to relax. Relax and soften your body. And just be, just be.<\/span><\/p>\n

No need to do anything. Connect to the awareness that\u2019s already present. Our minds can be open, spacious, luminous like the sky or like the sun. So rest in this luminous quality. It\u2019s right here for you. Nothing to do. Soften your body and simply be, just be. You can do it. One more deep, soft breath. Letting go into the awareness that\u2019s already present. Feel your feet on the ground. And then, when you\u2019re ready, open your eyes. End the meditation. OK. Last one, very different than the first or the other two. What did you notice?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Well, that\u2019s where I felt the deep peace feeling, using that phrase that you introduced before. And then I also felt, I think, just some of the tiredness in me that\u2014it seemed like it was deep peace\/tiredness. It was, just because I was relaxing and melting.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DW:<\/b> Yes, yes. Well, in this territory of natural awareness, anything goes. We can feel our depth of tiredness. Strong emotions can arise. Anything can happen because it\u2019s this wide-open space to allow ourselves to be exactly as we are and to see that we don\u2019t have to work at it. It just is right here for us.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Now, one of the things I want to ask you, Diana, for people that are used to working with some kind of meditation anchor. So, in focused awareness and in investigative awareness, we got to have an anchor. And they\u2019re like, \u201cOh, OK, I know how to do that.\u201d When you start losing your anchor, how can you help that person who\u2019s like, \u201cGod, when there\u2019s no meditation anchor, I don\u2019t really know if I\u2019m meditating or what\u2019s going on?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DW:<\/b> First of all, you don\u2019t have to do it, right? So one of the things that I like about this model is that we can be wherever we are, and it\u2019s fine. But if you want to try the more anchorless meditations, one thing you can do is if you notice yourself feeling overwhelmed like, \u201cOh, I\u2019m just floating out in space or something,\u201d then come back to your anchor, come back to whatever you\u2019re focusing on. It could be your breath, or feel your feet on the ground.<\/span><\/p>\n

So you allow a little bit of spaciousness. If that feels a bit overwhelming, come back to something that you\u2019re familiar with. Stay with that for a bit and then open up again. And then, usually, there\u2019s a shift that happens where people start to feel more comfortable doing the anchorless meditations. It becomes easier for them.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> And in your book, <\/span>The Little Book of Being<\/span><\/i>, when you\u2019re writing about natural awareness meditation, you write that we can marinate in that resting that we were just exploring and then refresh. And I\u2019m curious, how do we refresh ourselves in natural awareness meditation?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DW:<\/b> With natural awareness meditation, I tend to teach what I call \u201cglimpse practices.\u201d And I just did a little one with you all right then when I just talked it through. But they are practices that help us to access this quality of really\u2014with wakefulness, this full capacity to be entirely present without much effort. That\u2019s really what I\u2019m pointing to. So these glimpse practices, I have maybe 25 or 30 tools to help us do that. So the idea is, once your mind is settled, so for instance, you might start your meditation session with a few minutes of focused awareness and then try a glimpse practice. And I can share some of these.<\/span><\/p>\n

And then, if that evokes in you a quality of resting mind, of a mind that feels quite spacious, alert, present, then you marinate. You stay there. You rest in it. And then if you start to find that you get caught up in things, \u201cOh, no, I\u2019ve got to call this person or I have to do that or what\u2014,\u201d then you simply refresh. And \u201crefresh\u201d is an analogy to \u2026 of \u2026 in our computer, when the webpage gets all wonky and you hit refresh and then it comes back to where it was. So you can refresh by either reorienting back to the natural awareness or throw another glimpse practice in and see if that helps.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Can you give us an example of, maybe let\u2019s go with two, two of your favorite glimpse practices at this point in your life?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DW: <\/b>OK. So I\u2019m going to have everybody try it, right? So let\u2019s once again, getting settled here. This is a very experiential podcast. [<\/span>Laughs<\/span><\/i>] We\u2019ll just take a moment to feel our feet on the ground. And first, I invite you to expand your sense of hearing. Open your sense of hearing as far as you can, wide open. What\u2019s the furthest sound you can hear? Let your body be soft as we do this.<\/span><\/p>\n

Now, feel your body. Can you notice your back body, the back of your body? Most of the time we\u2019re facing forward.<\/span> But now let\u2019s notice our back body. And soften your back body, and become aware of the space behind you. And then allow it to expand 360 degrees. So it\u2019s like we\u2019re sensing into the expanded space above and below 360 degrees around you as far out as you can feel or sense. And add the hearing to it. So now, we\u2019re listening, we\u2019re feeling. And soft, soft belly. If you want to even open your eyes and feel the expansiveness so that we\u2019re looking peripherally.<\/span><\/p>\n

So, now, we\u2019re in a very spacious state, perhaps. And if it does feel overwhelming to you, just feel your feet on the ground. Feel your legs on the chair. But if it does feel spacious, then relax, just soften and enjoy the space. Enjoy the spaciousness as mind like the sky, vast, open, spacious. Everything that\u2019s happening is like clouds floating by, just clouds floating by. Rest and breathe. And then we\u2019ll pause. We\u2019ll stop this little meditation.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Well, first of all, I have to say I love this experiential podcast. And I loved that experience, that total open sky. How do you know if, when you\u2019re doing natural meditation like that, if you might not just be getting super spaced out? What\u2019s the difference between resting in natural awareness and being super spaced out?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DW:<\/b> Yes, that\u2019s the danger, absolutely. I mean, one could say, \u201cOh, yes, I\u2019m doing natural awareness meditation,\u201d but you\u2019re taking a nap or you\u2019re spacing, thinking of other things. So it requires that the practitioner pay close attention and not delude themselves and notice like, \u201cOK, what\u2019s happening? Is their awareness here, or am I lost in thoughts?\u201d If you catch it and you realize, \u201cOh, I\u2019m just thinking about everything and spacing out,\u201d then you reorient yourself. You go, \u201cOK, so just letting go, dropping back into something that helps me return.\u201d It\u2019s not a big deal. And it happens all the time with people when they\u2019re doing this.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> OK. So when we\u2019re practicing meditation on the narrow side of the awareness spectrum and we have our meditation anchor, and it\u2019s like, \u201cOh, yes, I\u2019m meditating. I\u2019m really doing it. I\u2019m following my breath. I come back to my breath. Yes, I know what I\u2019m doing.\u201d And there\u2019s a sense of being a meditator who\u2019s meditating. Now, it seems to me, and I\u2019m curious what you have to say about this, that as we move to the more expanded side of the spectrum, there\u2019s somehow more of a collapse of a person who\u2019s doing a meditation practice and more of just life arising and life emerging, which can be disconcerting, I think, to some people, may be interesting to others.<\/span><\/p>\n

But what do you think about that, the person meditating versus some self-knowing quality that seems to emerge? And there is no meditator, even.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DW: <\/b>Well, it definitely follows along with how these practices are taught. So each of the practices are derived from different teachings that I have had. The ones in the more narrow end come from the Insight meditation world, although I want to be really clear that in some teachers of Southeast Asian Buddhism, for instance, teach a more wide open and spacious type of mindfulness. But predominantly, where it is more of like a doer, a meditator, that\u2019s the approach, and it\u2019s such a valuable way to meditate. It\u2019s not like there\u2019s a problem to have a doer, because it\u2019s an easier access door into like, OK, I\u2019m going to meditate, and here\u2019s my experience.<\/span><\/p>\n

And then the ones that come out of the more spacious, non-dual end, and for those of you who are familiar with these types of teachings from Tibetan Buddhist practices, such as Dzogchen and Mahamudra, they\u2019re connected to Advaita Vedanta. These are these practices where the self tends to disappear or there\u2019s an emphasis on the removal of the self.<\/span><\/p>\n

So another of the glimpse practices that we could have done today is where we investigate the nature of \u201cI.\u201d Who is noticing? Who is having this experience? And oftentimes, people, when they start to investigate the \u201cI,\u201d can\u2019t really find it. And so it\u2019s just an interesting\u2014this is the feature of this type of practice. And there\u2019s a great relief that can come sometimes when we realize we are not the center of the universe, that there\u2019s a more of life\u2014you were saying so beautifully\u2014but life doing itself. It\u2019s moving through us rather than me, the doer. There\u2019s more spaciousness, ease, more well-being.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> What happens for you when you ask that question, \u201cWho is aware?\u201d as a glimpse practice? What happens?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DW:<\/b> Well, different things happen at different times. That practice is\u2014it\u2019s like an oldy-moldy practice, right? Ramana Maharshi would have people try to find who is the knower, investigate who is noticing, who are you. And when I teach it, I\u2019m actually very clear\u2014and I\u2019ll say that right now\u2014that you\u2019re not supposed to have an answer. There\u2019s not a final answer to that question. What the question does is it invites you to open your mind in a new way.<\/span><\/p>\n

And as you do and as you look, sometimes, not always, people have an experiential sense of, I don\u2019t find the doer. And that\u2019s what can happen to me sometimes. Sometimes I do it, and I think, \u201cOh, that\u2019s a dumb question.\u201d I don\u2019t know. I don\u2019t care. That is truly what can happen sometimes. But other times, there\u2019s a sense of freedom that might come. Where is that doer? Who is she? Where has she gone?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Now, one of the things that you write about in <\/span>The Little Book of Being<\/span><\/i> is that it\u2019s actually possible for our default state, that state that our mind goes to when we\u2019re not doing anything purposeful, to be natural awareness. And I wanted to hear more about that because I think for most of us, our default state is something like rumination, repetitive thinking, worry, discursive thinking, or just yes, like problem-solving, something like that. We\u2019re going over my schedule\u2014that\u2019s my default state, not this open state of natural awareness. So tell me about how natural awareness could become someone\u2019s default state?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DW: <\/b>Well, it takes practice. So it\u2019s not like you\u2019ll pick it up tomorrow and then by next week you\u2019ll have it together. Over time, it becomes more and more a sense of home, right? So when we practice right now, I agree with you totally, people\u2019s default\u2014I often will say that people live on Anxiety Street or Grieving Lane or Anger Boulevard or something, right? How can we move to a different address? And as we do these practices, it starts to become more what we default to.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

So I\u2019ll give you an example. I was just talking to a student recently who said when they were waiting in line, every time they were waiting in line, they used to pull out their phone or start worrying about something.<\/span> But now what he does is he rests his attention in awareness. And it\u2019s these little moments throughout the day that once you start to do that more and more, that you come back to this place. This is a place\u2014natural awareness has this quality of inherent safety and a goodness. I sometimes call it our fundamental well-being. And so when we can move our street to a different street and live more from this place through practice and then through practicing in our daily life, it starts to be more and more of who we are, and it\u2019s gradual for most people.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Now, I mentioned to you that for some people, having a meditation experience without an anchor can feel scary or disorienting, something like that. You said, \u201cWell, go back to having an anchor.\u201d And of course, that\u2019s a completely legitimate response, just go back. You can experience your breath in your belly again and feel safe and relaxed. What if somebody wanted to explore more the fear that they feel as they move into open awareness and then natural awareness? What would you suggest they actually consciously start working with that fear that can come up with such openness?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DW: <\/b>Sure. It\u2019s an interesting question. What I recommend is, so first, it\u2019s going to be a meditator who has a little bit of stability or experience under their belt, so they know how to work with difficult emotions, for instance, when they arise. But let\u2019s say you\u2019re sitting and you\u2019re practicing natural awareness, and fear comes up. So finding a part of your body that\u2019s a resource, like a safe or secure place that you can go to even simultaneously. So let\u2019s say you\u2019re resting in awareness: fear comes up. Just keep grounded in your feet on the ground or your butt on the chair or something that\u2019s really solid that keeps you centered. And then allow the fear to come up with it and let the fear, see if you can stay spacious enough to allow the fear to dissolve within it. And if that doesn\u2019t work and that feels too hard, switch over to investigative awareness. What am I feeling in my body? What do I notice, saying, \u201cOh, my heart is racing. My stomach is clenched.\u201d So we\u2019re just bringing in the tools when they\u2019re needed, but it\u2019s absolutely workable. And oftentimes, we\u2019ll find that strong emotions will come through us and they dissolve into the field of natural awareness and actually invigorates the field.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Now, Diana, this MAP that you have of the spectrum of awareness that you\u2019re experientially introducing us to here, which I appreciate, is this something that you took from a different tradition and you said, \u201cI\u2019m just going to bring some different words to it\u201d? Or is this really a MAP that you put together based on lots of different meditative experiences that you had with different types of approaches?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DW:<\/b> It\u2019s the second one. I have developed it, but in conversation, dialogue with a lot of my colleagues and peers. So it\u2019s not like I just made something up and said, \u201cOK, let\u2019s try it.\u201d And it\u2019s really just a way of taking these multiple meditative practices and helping them\u2014finding the linkages and helping people to see how they relate to each other. And so I\u2019m drawing from multiple awareness teachings to come together as one MAP, essentially.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> Well, first of all, how brilliant of you. So thank you. It\u2019s so helpful, I think. And so thank you for that. And then I\u2019m curious, at the UCLA Mindful Awareness Research Center, how does your work there relate to this MAP in any way? Are you studying aspects of it?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DW: <\/b>Yes. So we\u2019re not researching it, per se, although there are scientists who are doing research comparing the different types of awareness practices. There\u2019s studies looking at focused awareness versus open awareness and how that might impact depression, for instance. So there\u2019s some really interesting studies. What we\u2019re doing at my center is, we have a basic class that teaches mindfulness. It\u2019s a six-week class. It\u2019s like an MBSR program, a little bit shorter, Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction. But we call it MAPS, Mindful Awareness Practices.<\/span><\/p>\n

And we offer lots of classes teaching people mindfulness in a way that will help them incorporate it into daily life. And over the six weeks of that course, we go from a narrow focus to a wider focus. So you\u2019re seeing it embedded in these courses. And after teaching on the narrow end for many, many years, a few years ago, I started teaching the more spacious, open practices because, really, what I\u2019m doing is I\u2019m secularizing something that has been taught primarily within religious settings, really, within Tibetan Mahamudra or Dzogchen.<\/span><\/p>\n

I just want to be really clear: I\u2019m not teaching Dzogchen. I\u2019m not qualified to do that. What I\u2019m doing is teaching my experience of it and how it relates to all aspects of mindfulness. So, in our classes now, we have classes on the spectrum of awareness. I actually have a training program teaching people how to teach it. There\u2019s a lot of ways in which people can explore this spectrum. And just one more thing to say, it\u2019s also about an approach. When I first started meditating, I described myself as\u2014at the very beginning of our interview, I described myself as being very type A and driven, or maybe I didn\u2019t say it quite so clearly.<\/span><\/p>\n

But when I got into meditation, I wanted to get my A in meditation. I was struggling so hard to meditate, and I worked really, really hard. So that meant years of long retreats and staying up as late as I possibly could trying to meditate, trying to be a good meditator and get my A and get enlightened or something. I don\u2019t even know what I was going for, but I was very serious at that point. And ultimately, I burned out. It\u2019s like you can\u2019t sustain that level of practice. Mind gets too tight. It\u2019s overwhelming, and that happened to me when I lived as a Buddhist nun in a monastery in Myanmar, Burma.<\/span><\/p>\n

And it was there that I discovered the more relaxed, spacious, open practices as an antidote to the struggle in meditation. And so the reason I\u2019m saying all this is that we try to infuse this balanced effort, this spaciousness, even with the beginners. Yes, try hard but from a place of love and acceptance and kindness. You want to keep your attention on your breathing, but be so gentle and compassionate when your mind goes off, and allow yourself to just be as you are. This is like an underlying theme to the way we teach, I think, at our center.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now, you mentioned that you lived as a nun for a period of time. How long were you a nun? And did you think you were going to be a nun for your whole life?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DW: <\/b>No, definitely not. I did it for a year. I actually went in thinking six months, but I stayed for a year. But I knew that I would come back, although there were periods of time when I was there and I thought, \u201cThis is pretty nice. I don\u2019t know if I ever want to come back again.\u201d Then I did.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Right. So it was just a temporary nunhood. And it sounds like it was a tremendously beneficial experience for you, especially in terms of the depth of insight you had about meditation.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DW: <\/b>It was one of the pivotal moments or years of my life, but it was incredibly hard, too. So it wasn\u2019t like all rainbows and unicorns or something.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Yes. Which reminds me of one of my favorite chapters in your book, <\/span>The Little Book of Being<\/span><\/i>, where you write about not being a \u201cbliss ninny.\u201d And I wonder if you can share some about that because I think sometimes the kind of people who are drawn to natural awareness, at least this is something I\u2019ve seen, can be people who have affinity for that spacious, blissed-out way of being. I mean, I have some of that in me, so I can really connect to it. But you\u2019re saying don\u2019t be a bliss ninny. What do you mean by that, the \u201cninny\u201d part?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DW: <\/b>It\u2019s an old-school term. I think I learned it in the \u201970s or something. Of course, I was very young in the \u201970s. But anyways, it\u2019s this idea, exactly what you\u2019re saying, that people who are attracted to these practices can want to live from this place of like, \u201cOh, I\u2019m resting in natural awareness all the time, and therefore, it\u2019s all good.\u201d Right? And it\u2019s a denial of the reality of the world with suffering and then a denial perhaps of relationships. We can think of it as a spiritual bypass. And so, the suggestion is, don\u2019t be a dummy about this.<\/span><\/p>\n

Yes, both are true. We can rest in our own nature. We can find this place of profound ease and well-being.<\/span> And that doesn\u2019t mean there\u2019s not suffering out there and that the world is struggling and that there\u2019s so much work to do.<\/span><\/p>\n

So don\u2019t be a bliss ninny. These practices actually can really transform our relationship to the world because we can find that depth of well-being and then that actually empowers us to act. I see it as like an evolutionary imperative. It is time to go out in the world and act to help solve the crises that are out here. And we can do it from a place of profound inner well-being. And it doesn\u2019t have to shake who we are at the core.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now, one of the things, Diana, I wanted to ask you about was there\u2019s a section where you write about thoughts and how we can relate to thoughts from a place of natural awareness. And you wrote, \u201cThoughts are present, but usually in the background. They often appear to be weightless or transparent.\u201d And I wanted to talk to you about this notion of thoughts being transparent. And I think that\u2019s because I\u2019ve heard people use that word a lot, \u201ctransparent.\u201d [<\/span>Inaudible<\/span><\/i>] transparent to reality. And as I was reading that, that our thoughts appear to be weightless or transparent, I realized I didn\u2019t really know what that meant.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DW: <\/b>I guess for me it means\u2014so one of the things about writing about these states is some of these states of being are ineffable, so it\u2019s hard to write about. But I\u2019m trying to describe an experience where there\u2019s a resting in awareness and the predominant thing\u2014sometimes just to say another way of talking about natural awareness is awareness of awareness itself, right? So the main thing I\u2019m focusing on is the awareness. I\u2019m focusing on the sky, rather than the clouds that are moving through the sky.<\/span> The clouds are part of the sky. They\u2019re not separate. But my connection is to the sky itself.<\/span><\/p>\n

So when I have that and when we did that exercise where there\u2019s this wide-open spaciousness, the thoughts, for me, start to thin out. I don\u2019t know how to describe it any more, almost like you could just see through thoughts. That\u2019s why I use the language of transparency. They just come and go.<\/span> They\u2019re more like wispy clouds rather than big stormy clouds that take over, which is how thoughts tend to be most of the time. We\u2019re lost in thought. We\u2019re enamored by our thoughts. We can\u2019t get out of our thoughts. We\u2019re overwhelmed by thoughts, versus in the more natural awareness, and it happens in other ways of meditating as well, there\u2019s much more sense of thoughts coming and going and me not being so identified.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>That\u2019s helpful. OK. I want to share two of my favorite glimpse practices that you introduced and have you comment on them a bit about how to practice it. So, here\u2019s one, they\u2019re both questions we can ask ourselves. So here\u2019s a glimpse question: What is here in the wake of letting go?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DW: <\/b>Essentially, they\u2019re questions that you drop into your meditation. And what one would do is get quiet in meditation and then drop this question in: What is here in the wake of letting go? This one is interesting because so much of these practices are about letting go. Meaning, I\u2019m clinging to something. I\u2019m caught in my desire. I\u2019m caught in my aversion. I\u2019m wanting this. I\u2019m needing that. I\u2019m caught in my sense of me, me, me, whatever it is. I want the cookie.<\/span> I want my children to be a certain way. I want my dog to stop doing this, right? We get caught. And so these practices\u2014through mindfulness, period, don\u2019t even worry about natural awareness\u2014through mindfulness, we see that we\u2019re caught and we begin to let go.<\/span><\/p>\n

I wanted to say an example quickly. I guess it\u2019s in the book\u2014that it\u2019s like the way that they capture monkeys in Thailand is they hollow out a coconut and they tie it to a tree. And they just have a little hole in the coconut, and they put a banana in there. And so the monkey\u2019s hand can go in and grab the banana. And it grabs the banana, but then it\u2019s caught because it can\u2019t get its hand out. And the solution, of course, is to drop the banana, to let go. And this is the solution. If you do that, if you imagine doing that, the monkey does it, and there\u2019s freedom. So this is an essence of meditation practices in a way, or these types of practices.<\/span><\/p>\n

Now, what\u2019s here when you let go, when you stop wanting that banana or that cookie or your family to do something or your partner to do something, right? It\u2019s like there\u2019s this moment of peace. There\u2019s this moment of ease. There\u2019s this moment of relinquishment. And typically, we step over it, we ignore it because we\u2019re too busy in life or we\u2019re just relieved that we\u2019re no longer feeling bad. But this is an invitation to rest in what\u2019s here in those moments of letting go.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Beautiful. OK. Another glimpse question that I really like. And then I am going to have to ask you a follow-up question. But first, let\u2019s just drop the question into the conversation. What would be here if nothing were wrong?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DW: <\/b>So, this one, I can\u2019t explain. This one is entirely experiential. This is where people get to see and really ask that question themselves and what do they find if nothing were wrong. So, yes, it\u2019s more experiential. There\u2019s not a statement about it.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I think the paradoxical question that comes up for me, and it comes up when I start thinking about it. I love this glimpse question. What would be here if nothing were wrong? When I asked that question, I\u2019m just like, \u201cOh, thank goodness.\u201d I\u2019m going to have 60 seconds right now where there\u2019s nothing wrong. This is a miracle 60 seconds for me. It\u2019s just so fabulous. But then I think about your saying about don\u2019t be a bliss ninny. And I think there are so many things that are wrong. And I better come out of meditation, keep addressing all those things. So, somehow, there\u2019s truth in all of this. What\u2019s your framing?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DW: <\/b>I like to think about holding both, honestly. That we can cultivate this part of ourselves that is connected to the idea of, or at least the vision of, nothing is wrong. And at the same time, we are not in any way losing sight of all that is wrong. And so I think it was Suzuki Roshi who said, \u201cThings are perfect as they are, and they could use a little improvement.\u201d Right? So it\u2019s like holding both simultaneously. But don\u2019t come out of meditation because you\u2019re like, \u201cOh, no, everything is a mess.\u201d Stay in that, rest in that, enjoy, marinate, right? Really let yourself have that, and then there\u2019ll be a natural conclusion. And then you come up, and you work, and you do incredible stuff for this world as you always do.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>All right. Diana, to end our conversation, you created with Sounds True this audio training course called <\/span>Glimpses of Being<\/span><\/i>. Approximately six hours, you go into depth teaching on the full spectrum of awareness. What do you hope people will get out of this series if they move into it and really engage in the meditative practices, glimpses of being?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DW: <\/b>So I\u2019m hoping that people will have a fuller picture of ways to practice awareness, and I think we get stuck in our ruts or we\u2019ve learned one way to meditate. For instance, I was teaching recently these practices and someone said to me, \u201cI didn\u2019t know there was anything else to do, other than notice my breathing.\u201d So that\u2019s really common. And so I\u2019m hoping that people will see the full expanse of ways of practicing.<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s also a tool that can help them assess or identify what\u2019s happening in their meditation.<\/span> So for those of you who are long-term meditators or even more recent meditators, you can say, \u201cOh, this is where I am. And here, I\u2019m stuck here. So what do I do?\u201d So you can use it to address issues like \u201cI\u2019m really, really restless in my meditation. What might be the best approach?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

And then, finally, it can be used to expand your repertoire. How much fun is it\u2014for those of you who like to meditate, and I\u2019m one of those people, it\u2019s like, \u201cOh, there\u2019s all these new ways to practice, and there\u2019s so many interesting things to learn and to deepen my practice.\u201d So identify, work with difficulties, and expand and enjoy.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I\u2019ve been speaking with Diana Winston. She\u2019s the director of Mindfulness Education at UCLA\u2019s Mindful Awareness Research Center. She\u2019s written the book with Sounds True <\/span>The Little Book of Being: Practices and Guidance for Uncovering Your Natural Awareness<\/span><\/i> and has created a new audio series called <\/span>Glimpses of Being: A Training Course in Expanding Mindful Awareness<\/span><\/i>. Thank you, Diana. Thank you for the brilliance of your work and how helpful it is. Thank you so much.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

DW: <\/b>Thanks, Tami. It\u2019s great to be with you.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Thank you for listening to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>. You can read a full transcript of today\u2019s interview at SoundsTrue.com\/podcast. And if you\u2019re interested, hit the subscribe button in your podcast app. And also, if you feel inspired, head to iTunes and leave <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i> a review. I love getting your feedback, being in connection with you, and learning how we can continue to evolve and improve our program. Working together, I believe we can create a kinder and wiser world. SoundsTrue.com: waking up the world.<\/span><\/p>\n

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