{"id":9537,"date":"2021-11-02T13:33:55","date_gmt":"2021-11-02T19:33:55","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?post_type=transcript&p=9537"},"modified":"2021-11-02T13:33:55","modified_gmt":"2021-11-02T19:33:55","slug":"embracing-pleasure-fractal-responsibility-and-the-power-of-our-imagination","status":"publish","type":"transcript","link":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/embracing-pleasure-fractal-responsibility-and-the-power-of-our-imagination\/","title":{"rendered":"Embracing Pleasure, Fractal Responsibility, and the Power of Our Imagination"},"content":{"rendered":"
\"image_print\"Print Transcript<\/span><\/a><\/div>

Tami Simon: <\/b>Welcome to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i> produced by Sounds True. My name\u2019s Tami Simon. I\u2019m the founder of Sounds True. I\u2019d love to take a moment to introduce you to the new Sounds True Foundation. The Sounds True Foundation is dedicated to creating a wiser and kinder world by making transformational education widely available. We want everyone to have access to transformational tools such as mindfulness, emotional awareness, and self-compassion, regardless of financial, social, or physical challenges. The Sounds True Foundation is a nonprofit dedicated to providing these transformational tools to communities in need, including at-risk youth, prisoners, veterans, and those in developing countries. If you\u2019d like to learn more or feel inspired to become a supporter, please visit SoundsTrueFoundation.org.<\/span><\/p>\n

You\u2019re listening to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>. Today my guest is adrienne maree brown. adrienne maree brown is a social justice facilitator who\u2019s focused on black liberation, a pleasure activist, a doula and healer, and the author of several books, including <\/span>Emergent Strategy<\/span><\/i>, <\/span>Holding Change<\/span><\/i>, and the New York Times bestseller, <\/span>Pleasure Activism<\/span><\/i>. In her book <\/span>Emergent Strategy<\/span><\/i>, here\u2019s how adrienne describes herself: \u201cI\u2019m an auntie, sister, daughter, WOE (which stands for \u2018Working on Excellence\u2019), a writer, a coach, mentor, mediator, pleasure activist, sci-fi scholar, tarot reader, witch, cheerleader, singer, philosopher, queer, Black, multiracial, lover of life living in Detroit.\u201d adrienne is indeed all of that.<\/span><\/p>\n

She also inspires me to look at what I want to say yes to when it comes to being a change-maker in the world and not just all the things I want to say no to, and to honor and make good use of the place where we each stand. Here\u2019s my conversation with the visionary and inspiring adrienne maree brown.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

There\u2019s a lot to talk about here, obviously, and as I said, a great joy and delight, adrienne maree brown, welcome.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

adrienne maree brown: <\/b>Thank you, Tami. It\u2019s nice to meet you and be here with you.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I\u2019ve been immersed in your writing for the past couple of days and there are many things that really struck me that I\u2019m excited to talk with you about. And the first is this notion\u2014it\u2019s a term I\u2019d never heard before called\u2014fractal responsibility, and how what\u2019s in the most minute is happening in the whole. And I wanted to start off by talking with you about that, because often I think people think about this notion of taking personal responsibility\u2014and there\u2019s this idea, \u201cWell, yes, but that\u2019s not good enough. That\u2019s not good enough. That\u2019s never going to change the structures in our society if we\u2019re all just focused on our personal responsibility in our growth work, how we are as a fractal.\u201d So, I wanted to hear your view on that as a way to begin?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>Yes. It\u2019s so interesting to me because I have always pushed. I\u2019m like, \u201cIt\u2019s not enough to just do your own thing. It\u2019s not enough to just recycle your own stuff.\u201d And simultaneously also true, it\u2019s not enough to not do that. You need to do all those things. And I think so often, especially for people who are trying to change the world, we get very, very focused on what everyone else is doing and pointing our finger at everyone else\u2019s bad behavior, racism, capitalism, greed. We don\u2019t keep the lens on our own behaviors and on how these large systems of oppression manifest each one of us. And I feel like there\u2019s the \u201cboth, and.\u201d I learned about fractals as I was learning about emergence and complexity sciences and chaos theory and all these other things.<\/span><\/p>\n

In part by reading Margaret Wheatley\u2019s <\/span>Leadership and the New Science<\/span><\/i>, I started to have my eyes opened to this reality. Then I was like, \u201cOh, there are these patterns that repeat themselves from the smallest scale that we can document or measure up to the largest scale.\u201d Some of the fractals that people might be familiar with this like ferns or broccoli, where when you look at it as small scale, it\u2019s the shape of the whole. If you look at the Delta right now, the entire Gulf region is all flooded, and so the Delta riverbanks are all flooded and overflowing. That\u2019s the same thing that happens in our bodies, right? We have these deltas of river veins, basically arteries, moving through us. I love that idea of pattern. The patterns on the small scale echo up to the largest scale.<\/span><\/p>\n

Fractal responsibility is saying, \u201cHow do I operate in a way that is responsible to my vision, in a way that can echo out to the largest scale that it\u2019s not just pointing fingers and asking other people to change, but recognizing the kind of change I can make in the world is directly related to the change I\u2019m willing to make within myself.\u201d And again, \u201cboth, and,\u201d right? So, as I change, it requires new relationships. The fractal universe around me shifts as well and then as my community changes where we live has to change, as we change, we can change the world in that way.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>To summarize, you would say it\u2019s a \u201cboth, and\u201d approach that you embrace?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>Yes. I mean, it\u2019s about recognizing that everything is connected and if you\u2019re not willing to play your part, if you\u2019re only willing to point fingers, nothing will actually change.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>You mentioned Margaret Wheatley. She is someone whose work I also deeply respect, and you quote her in <\/span>Emergent Strategy<\/span><\/i>, talking about how, what we need right now is not so much gathering a critical mass but engaging in critical relationships. What makes a relationship critical? And what do you mean by engaging in critical relationships?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>Yes. I feel like I\u2019m learning this one all the time. And I think that the shared experience of COVID-19 has actually been a great teacher for what a critical relationship is. The way I think of it is a relationship that can stay connected and authentic and where both people can really be present under the pressures of change and under the pressures of crisis, under the pressures of love, right? When I think of it in a political sense, for a long time I always socialized as an organizer that I was trying to build as large of a mass of people moving in a direction as possible. And critical mass was that point at which the number that we grew was large enough to actually impact the thing we were trying to change.<\/span><\/p>\n

Critical relationship, critical connection is where the connection we have is deep enough to actually allow our transformation to happen. I\u2019m in several critical relationships now. It\u2019s the question between a petition, signing a petition, and actually sitting down and engaging in a conversation until your worldview shifts in some fundamental way. I think too often, right now we have people who are willing to sign a petition, but not actually willing to engage in a hard conversation or intervene on an instance of racism or step up and take accountability for harm that they\u2019ve done. I think critical connections allow for those kinds of acts.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>If you were to say these are the guidelines personally that you use to cultivate critical relationships, what are those?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>I like that question, Tami. I feel like there\u2019s a piece of it for me that is, there\u2019s something organic in my system that says yes to the connection. I learned that in Pleasure Activism that there\u2019s something in me that\u2019s like\u2014there\u2019s something I\u2019m drawn to or something I want to be a part of here and I\u2019m compelled. I\u2019m not here from obligation. I\u2019m not here to represent anything. I\u2019m actually here because I want to be here.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I\u2019m just going to say yes right now. Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>Yes. Yes. Right?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>OK. Yes. Right here.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>There\u2019s a big part of it also, for me, that is about honesty. If I find that my instinct is to contort and to lie, to hide, to protect someone if I feel like I can\u2019t tell the truth, then I\u2019m like, \u201cWe can\u2019t really be in a critical connection.\u201d And sometimes you can shy. I\u2019ve definitely been in situations where like, \u201cIs that what you really feel right now? Is that what you really want to say? Is that what you really need?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

I\u2019m really blessed right now. I\u2019m in partnership with someone who regularly asks me to tell the truth, who really wants to hear the truth for me. And it has astounded me to recognize how much of my life has been being asked to tell the lies of kindness, the lies of politeness, and the lies that keep me from being able to actually take accountability for my own life and my choices and my responsibilities.<\/span><\/p>\n

I would say that, yes\u2014and that a thousand percent honesty: I\u2019d go out of my way to make sure I\u2019m telling the truth and then accountability in the sense of\u2014one of my very closest friends, we\u2019ll make a joke to each other, we\u2019ll be talking, blah, blah, blah, and the other person is, \u201cDon\u2019t punch me but I need to say whatever it is.\u201d And a lot of times it\u2019s those moments of intervention of like, \u201cI hear you telling a story. An old story, a story that\u2019s out of alignment with your values. A story that\u2019s not aligned with your highest purpose. And don\u2019t punch me, but I got to tell you that.\u201d It\u2019s related to the honesty but it\u2019s also a willingness to hold up the mirror to people and just be like, \u201cThis isn\u2019t it. This isn\u2019t what you say you believe or want to be doing.\u201d And then we go from there.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I just want to underscore that, What I think you\u2019re saying here, especially about this thousand percent or gajillion percent, whatever we wanna say.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>Yes. Totally.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Honestly, it\u2019s really tough. It\u2019s really tough.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>It\u2019s so hard.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>And here I started a company called Sounds True\u2014focus on the \u201ctruth\u201d\u201436 years ago and yet I still find whether it\u2019s in my 20-year marriage now or in relationships with my closest friends, that I have to dig deep. I have to dig deep to be as honest as I feel inside and find the skillful ways to do that and not bury things. Just wanted to say that.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>How do you do it?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I thought I was asking the questions! It\u2019s OK. It\u2019s OK. In the areas where I\u2019m not, it bothers me. I can feel it. I feel disturbed, and when I feel disturbed, I toss, and I turn, and I wrestle. Then I find that I have to come forward in order to be in integrity with myself, but I\u2019m just saying, it\u2019s a challenge. It\u2019s a real challenge.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>It\u2019s really hard. I\u2019ve got a perfectionist, organizer shape. So, at first, I was like, \u201cI\u2019m going to practice honesty, honesty all the time.\u201d And I was so serious and so rigid, and it was painful. And I kept really coming down harshly on myself for the moments where I was like, \u201cYou know that you\u2019ve thought this, and you didn\u2019t say it, or whatever.\u201d I had to really get softer with myself and I had to get a lot more curious with myself. Now when I notice that I\u2019m out of alignment, if I notice someone hurt my feelings, and a lot of times it\u2019ll show on my face. Someone will hurt my feelings and then it shows, and it\u2019s like, \u201cWell, are you OK?\u201d Or like, \u201cWhat\u2019s going on?\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cI\u2019m fine.\u201d Right?<\/span><\/p>\n

Just that little moment, catching that and just being like, \u201cWhat is that?\u201d Right? Why would I say I\u2019m fine when actually my feelings are hurt and this person, I think, can handle that truth. The vulnerability of it, is so hard for me. And I love therapy for this. I love working with healers for this to kind of get up under, why wouldn\u2019t I be honest in that moment? What am I attending to or protecting or taking care of? And are there other ways to take care of it that don\u2019t require me to contort myself away from the truth?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>[Yes.] I want to talk more about <\/span>Emergent Strategy <\/span><\/i>and towards the beginning of the book, you share the principles of <\/span>Emergent Strategy<\/span><\/i>. And there are a couple of them, especially, that I really wanted to ask you about, that I was like, \u201cI need to understand this more.\u201d The first one, \u201cSmall is good, small is all.\u201d And even though we began our conversation by talking about fractal responsibility, I want to hear more about this, because I think a lot of times people don\u2019t feel \u201csmall is all\u201d; they feel \u201csmall makes me a runt who\u2019s not really contributing during this critical time.\u201d People feel bad about themselves because they\u2019re just doing something small.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>Yes. I love this one for me. It helps my shoulders relax a little bit and what I learned inside of it is, it\u2019s not that things won\u2019t become large, it\u2019s not that they\u2019re not massive things happening, but they\u2019re all made up of small parts. And that\u2019s true also of our species that we had this massive species, which for instance right now is having this horrific impact on the planet that we live on, that is our source of all life. We have a species that is somehow working against that and trying to dominate and pretend we\u2019re the only one here, but that species is made up of a lot of small parts. And I can\u2019t change what happens for the entire species, but I can absolutely change what I do as a small component of that species. And I can start to be in different relationships with the other small components of that species. Anything large we want to do is only going to be possible because of authentic shifts that happen in those small components and small relationships.<\/span><\/p>\n

This really became clear to me as an electoral organizer, back in the early 2000s. I was doing electoral organizing, trying to get Bush out of office and stop the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. And I was like, \u201cWe have to stop the federal government from doing this.\u201d It was so humbling for me to acknowledge that I as an individual person, I as an organizer, wasn\u2019t able to have that scale of impact. I had to really sit with, what scale can I have? What I learned\u2014and I started traveling around the country and asking people this\u2014was, I wasn\u2019t practicing democracy. I wasn\u2019t, actually in my life practicing democracy. And I started asking other people this: \u201cDo you practice democracy in your household? Do you have a democratic process around your budget for your block or for your community?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Everywhere I went, the answer\u2014some people might say like, \u201cYes, our household is some democratic process.\u201d Usually if I probed a little bit, it was like, actually one person is radically making most of the decisions in the household.<\/span><\/p>\n

But when I kept asking the question, what I discovered was at a small scale, at the local scale, at the intimate scale, most of us aren\u2019t practicing democracy, but we\u2019re astounded by the fact that our democracy keeps failing at the largest scale. It keeps not actually serving the majority of the people. It keeps leading to horrific decisions like, as we sit here having this conversation right now, we\u2019re in this precarious place where Texas is overturning <\/span>Roe v. Wade<\/span><\/i> basically. I said, \u201cWell, how could that happen when over half the nation needs to be in a position to be able to make this choice for themselves?\u201d It\u2019s because we don\u2019t actually practice democracy until we\u2019re in a crisis and it needs to happen at a large scale. So that\u2019s some of what I mean by it, right?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Let me ask you a question about that to make that real, because I\u2019m trying to reflect in my life where I could practice democracy. And clearly in my intimate relationship, that\u2019s a place for a true kind of relationship of equality and our [<\/span>Inaudible]<\/span><\/i> matter the same amount. At work, most of us aren\u2019t in a democratic workplace. Sounds True is not a democratic workplace. There\u2019s a lot of room for input, but it\u2019s not a democracy. So, most of us don\u2019t have workplaces that function that way and not all of us are involved in a community. We don\u2019t know what that means, really. What does that even mean to be part of the democracy? So how would I make this real in my life, is what I was curious about?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>That\u2019s great. So it can look a lot of different ways. One of the first things is just exactly what you did, to look around you and say, \u201cAm I in community and in spaces where we all get to actually weigh in on what\u2019s happening, and we get to be honest about the resources, the capacity, what we\u2019re bringing to the table, we get to determine what are the priorities of what happens here?\u201d And that doesn\u2019t necessarily mean no hierarchy ever happens. Democracy isn\u2019t a collectivist process necessarily, right? It means that everyone actually gets to play a part, be a part of the process, and I\u2019ve started to practice this. I mean, it\u2019s so fun as an organizer to realize you\u2019re doing the exact opposite from what you wanted to do. But I definitely have come into spaces and been like, \u201cOh, this relationship only works because I\u2019m totally in charge of everything.\u201d Or, \u201cThis aspect of my family life only works because I\u2019m trying to control everyone, right? It works for me because I control everyone.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

The thing that\u2019s happening is we\u2019re trained to do hierarchy, we\u2019re trained to do dominance, we\u2019re trained to compete with each other, but we\u2019re not trained to do governance, to share this sense of decision-making and to think about the relationships we have the lead to resourcing everything that we have. So, one of the first places to practice that is finding out what could we do in our workplace to make this a place where the majority of us spend the majority of our lives working, right? How could we make the places where we work more democratic? What would that look like? And it doesn\u2019t have to be a top-down thing. In fact, it shouldn\u2019t be, right? It\u2019s really asking everyone, what would it look like for you to have more responsibility over the direction of this place? What would that look like?<\/span><\/p>\n

The governance piece of it is also crucial, right? We\u2019re not learning to govern. We have politicians who are also not really learning to govern. They\u2019re performative. They\u2019re learning to get our votes; they\u2019re learning to campaign. But we see the mess that happens when most of them actually get into office. There are just all these places where we can start to be like, what would it look like to take responsibilities for that small-<\/span>d<\/span><\/i> democracy?<\/span><\/p>\n

And you might\u2019ve also read in the books I consider myself a post-nationalist. Part of that is because I think that the structure of the nation state is actually at odds with how humans need to be in relationship with each other. This idea of outsourcing governance, handing it over to the electoral college or to some representative body. Instead of saying, \u201cWe live here. The resources are here. We have to figure out how to move forward. How do we do that in relationship with each other?\u201d I think eventually we\u2019ll get back to that much more tribal organization of humans. I think for the long, long haul, that\u2019s actually more functional than what we have now.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I like that idea. And we\u2019re going to talk about this future visioning that you\u2019re so deeply engaged with. I want to briefly just return to the principles of <\/span>Emergent Strategy<\/span><\/i>.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>Yes, please. That was just one of them\u2014small is good.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I know, and there\u2019s a couple here. I want to get to the one that\u2019s most important to me. The second one you write about: change is constant; be like water. OK, we\u2019re going to let that flow by here and go to number three, because this is the one that I got stuck on. There is always enough time for the right work.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I thought to myself, \u201cI don\u2019t know if I believe that. I really don\u2019t know if I believe that. I\u2019ve got ask adrienne about that.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>You\u2019ve got to ask me. I was writing this book really for facilitators and organizers. And I was thinking\u2014I\u2019ve been facilitating for over two decades now and one of the pieces of feedback that I often get is like, \u201cWow, we ended early. We got everything done that needed to happen. We addressed the most important stuff.\u201d I learned this one in that process of working, of facilitating. I was just like, \u201cOh, a lot of times it feels like we don\u2019t have enough time because we\u2019re really focused on the wrong things. We\u2019re really distracted by either things that are beyond our capacity to work on, or by things that have happened in the past and we can no longer do anything about, or we\u2019re trying to cover everything at once.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

One of the things that I love to do is help people figure out the right work. And by right work I often mean what is the most elegant next step\u2014which is a question I learned from my friend, Gibran Rivera; what is the piece we can actually attend to here and now? I often think of it as like, you know when you\u2019ve set up dominos in a space that\u2019s like if you hit that first domino it\u2019s actually going to knock everything else over? I will ask groups that, right? What is the domino? What is the thing that we need to start on that will actually open the way for some of these other issues? So an example of this, a lot of times groups will come in and they\u2019ll be like, \u201cWe need a five-year plan and a compelling vision, a clear message, a clear communications plan; we need a budget; we need all this stuff.\u201d The domino is you need a good decision-making process.<\/span><\/p>\n

If you have a really solid functional proposal-based decision-making process, I lean towards consensus. If you have a good decision-making process, then the rest of those things can happen, because you have a really good way that you all have agreed to of doing that work. But the number of times I show up and a group has no real decision-making process and they\u2019re surprised that they can\u2019t move the rest of their work, it really shocks me.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

The right work is what can we actually attend to in this moment that the right people are in the room for, that\u2019s another big piece of it\u2014is we waste a lot of time trying to make decisions that we can\u2019t make because we\u2019re not the right people to make those decisions or we don\u2019t have enough information. The right work might be, we need to do more research, we need to slow this down, we need to clarify the process, but I find that when you\u2019re doing the right work, often you end like five minutes early.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>All right. I guess I have to ask this, and I\u2019m sure you\u2019ve heard this from a lot of people, [that] when they hear the word \u201cconsensus\u201d they break out in hives and think it\u2019s going to take eons\u2014not enough time to get the work done. Not end five minutes early. So how do you put those two together?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>Well, I\u2019m blessed because my sister, Autumn, is a consensus teacher and she really blew my mind around consensus because I had that same\u2014I was like, \u201cHmm, no.\u201d And this one actually ties into another aspect of <\/span>Emergent Strategy<\/span><\/i>, which is around trust, and that when you\u2019re building trust with people, it\u2019s very slow but once you have trust with people, things can move a lot faster. Consensus works that way, where when you\u2019re first starting to practice consensus, people first getting to know each other, consistence can be very slow because people don\u2019t necessarily trust the process. They don\u2019t trust that they can articulate their concerns or ask the question that might slow the process down a little bit. One of the main reasons consensus is slow is because people don\u2019t speak up in the right time and then are like, \u201cI want to block this,\u201d at the last minute when it\u2019s time to move.<\/span><\/p>\n

Part of it is that trust-building work. The more trust you have, the smoother consensus is and the quicker it can move because you start to recognize, \u201cOh, we shouldn\u2019t have a decision-making conversation until there\u2019s a proposal on the table. The proposal shouldn\u2019t just come out of thin air. We should have a conversation about what we want in this proposal.\u201d So that by the time you\u2019re having a decision conversation it\u2019s like, \u201cOh, we talked about this. We said what we wanted. We developed a proposal for how that could happen. We\u2019re discussing this proposal. We want to do it.\u201d And I\u2019ve been a part of groups where consensus was a two-minute process, right? I\u2019ve been a part of groups where consensus was a three-day process. Both were right for what they needed to be.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Yes. Well, I want to ask you a question about the trust, because it\u2019s clear to me that being able to develop trust with other people in the groups we work with is supremely important. And you\u2019ve already talked about this thousand-percent honesty and holding people accountable, but what else do you think in working with groups\u2014I know you have a new book <\/span>Holding [Change]<\/span><\/i>\u2014what helps us create groups of people who actually trust each other?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>Well, one thing is, trust is not a static thing, right? It\u2019s not like, you\u2019re just like, \u201cWell, I trust you and that\u2019s how it is forever.\u201d I think of it more like, I think Morihei Ueshiba, the founder of aikido, talked about mastery this way. That\u2019s like, it\u2019s not that you never fall down, but it\u2019s that you recover quicker and quicker each time. I think of trust that way. It\u2019s not like you\u2019re never untrustworthy or out of integrity, but you\u2019re able to come back quicker and quicker to a place where you\u2019re like, \u201cOh I was out of integrity.\u201d And I think integrity and trust go together. They\u2019re like two pieces of the puzzle. So, when I say integrity, it\u2019s what you say and what you do, what you say and what you believe are as closely aligned as possible if not one thing.<\/span><\/p>\n

For me, trust starts to shake and break when there\u2019s a gap of integrity, when people are saying something but not doing that thing, and especially if they repeatedly do it, or they\u2019re doing something and they\u2019re not actually saying and acknowledging that they\u2019re doing it\u2014that gap of integrity opens. And when you recognize there\u2019s a trust breakdown, you have to figure out, are we committed to coming back to each other? Can we knit ourselves back into relationship again?<\/span><\/p>\n

There\u2019s two pieces of it. There\u2019s the extension of trust and then there\u2019s being trustworthy. And there\u2019s this beautiful quote from Lao Tzu, which I also included in <\/span>Emergent Strategy<\/span><\/i>\u2014it\u2019s in the Tao Te Ching. The original quote is: \u201cIf you don\u2019t trust the people, they become untrustworthy.\u201d And I flipped it to say, \u201cIf you trust the people, they become trustworthy,\u201d which is what I have found happened in most organizations.<\/span><\/p>\n

The addendum that added over the years has been, or the boundaries become clear. And that\u2019s because sometimes, I think that anyone, given enough time and attention and extension of trust can become trustworthy. I do believe that, but we don\u2019t always have all the time. We don\u2019t always have forever to give to people. In our organization sometimes we\u2019re working on a quick timeline and if someone\u2019s untrustworthy, we have to set a boundary so that we can continue to move the work and hope that they can keep on their journey. So that\u2019s some of the stuff around trust that feels important to share.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Yes. Good. Thank you. Now, the fourth principle of <\/span>Emergent Strategy<\/span><\/i>: \u201cThere is a conversation in the room that only these people at this moment can have. Find it.\u201d And what I wanted to understand is, as a facilitator for so many years, what is it that you\u2019re doing? What\u2019s your posture, the glasses you\u2019re wearing, or whatever that you\u2019re putting to hear the conversation that needs to be had in the room, what are you doing?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>Well, part of the reason I wrote the book <\/span>Holding Change<\/span><\/i> was because I was like, \u201cI need people to understand the specifics of what happens here.\u201d So for me, I tend to listen before, during, and after. I\u2019m in a deep listening process all the time. I\u2019m feeling the room and I\u2019m really attending to what I\u2019m both feeling and what I\u2019m hearing, because that\u2019s where I start to feel like, is there an alignment? Are these people actually saying what needs to be said? Or is there that tension? And I think we all know that tension when we feel it, but we don\u2019t always know how to put our finger on it, but where there\u2019s some conversation, energetic conversation or tension, that\u2019s the unspoken, the elephants in the room. And I always think the elephants\u2014they feel like energetic elephants. I\u2019m like, \u201cThere\u2019s something in this room that\u2019s massive and pushing up against all of us and it\u2019s not being spoken.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Sometimes you can find that out with pre-surveys, right? It\u2019s just asking people beforehand, what do we need to talk about? What are the top priorities? What\u2019s not getting addressed in this organization? What could this organization do to actually grow? You ask these questions beforehand. Sometimes that needs to be anonymous because what\u2019s happening is so tense that people are scared to say the truth or maybe there\u2019s a pattern of firing people who say the truth and other things like that.<\/span><\/p>\n

I have a good friend and comrade, Makani Themba, who actually wrote an essay in <\/span>Holding Change<\/span><\/i>. And one of the practices she does when we\u2019ve co-facilitated together, that she\u2019ll actually have everyone anonymously write on a post-it note what\u2019s not being said right now and just write it there, put it in a bowl, take a break. And then we sit as facilitators and get to actually look at that and process it a bit and just learn a little bit more about the group.<\/span><\/p>\n

One of the things that is important to me is you cannot hold what you don\u2019t know about. You cannot have a conversation if people won\u2019t speak. As a facilitator, I cannot force people to do anything that they\u2019re not ready to do or willing to do and that\u2019s why that conversation is like the right people in the right time. Sometimes I\u2019m sitting in a room full of white people who want to talk about diversity and why it\u2019s not happening in their space. And I\u2019m like, \u201cY\u2019all could talk about it, but you\u2019re not the right people to necessarily talk about it because it\u2019s too homogenous and you don\u2019t actually know the answer to this. You might have ideas but the conversation you want to have would require inviting people who for some reason, are not interested in this space to come and give you feedback on why.\u201d So sometimes the right conversation is like, who else do we need to invite here? Sometimes the right conversation is what are we scared to speak out loud?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

[ADVERTISEMENT]<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Hope, it can be found, lost, misunderstood, nurtured, and, luckily, it\u2019s contagious. And there\u2019s little argument that we need hope now more than ever. Please join Sounds True for a seven-day online summit on activating hope. Together we can, together we will. Featuring Jane Goodall, author of the new <\/span>Book of Hope<\/span><\/i>. Please visit hopesummit2021.com to register and learn more.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

[END OF ADVERTISEMENT]<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Now, one thing I noticed, adrienne, is when I referred to your new book, I think I called it <\/span>Holding Space<\/span><\/i>\u2014and then you kindly slipped in that it\u2019s actually called <\/span>Holding Change<\/span><\/i>.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>It\u2019s called, <\/span>Holding Change<\/span><\/i>.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>And yet it\u2019s probably a connection.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>Yes, it is. I said in the book.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>And I remember it that way because of my own sort of space-holding nature.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>Well, and also holding spaces, the way we talk about, it\u2019s the way like those of us who facilitate often say we\u2019re holding space. I mentioned in the book that I call it <\/span>Holding Change <\/span><\/i>for many reasons. One is that my sister and a friend of hers Maryse have done this powerful set of workshops called \u201cHolding Space,\u201d and I\u2019m hoping they write a book called <\/span>Holding Space <\/span><\/i>at some point. But also the work that I\u2019ve done is really how are we changing the world in ourselves? And so it\u2019s not just holding space where anything can happen. I really want to hold spaces where transformation is possible.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>OK. The fifth principle here: \u201cNever a failure, always a lesson.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>So how do we have that attitude in our own life about so many things, especially things where we\u2019ll sit down with ourselves, and we go, \u201cActually I think that was a failure.\u201d How do we flip that?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>Yes. I mean, one of the things that it\u2019s so funny because people are like, \u201cBut sometimes I do fail.\u201d And I\u2019m like, \u201cNo, we are failing all the time but the framework that we have on it determines whether it is a waste of our lives or a component that helps us to learn.\u201d And I, in my own life, I\u2019ll have a moment where I lose my temper or I knock something over, the things that can feel like minor failures in life. And even at that small scale, I have been teaching myself to slow down in that moment and be like, \u201cWhat am I learning right now? What is the lesson of this for me?\u201d When I knock something over it\u2019s because I was moving too fast and I wasn\u2019t being attentive generally, right? And then I ask myself, \u201cWhy is that? Why am I moving urgently?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Usually is because I\u2019m trying to avoid an emotion for me, right? Everyone\u2019s different. Or I lost my temper. \u201cWhat can I learn from this?\u201d I\u2019ve been repressing the truth. I\u2019ve been repressing something I needed to say, and I repressed it long enough for it to build up into a problem and now it\u2019s coming out of this way. Or I am full of grief and rage about something that\u2019s happening in the world, and I haven\u2019t given myself time to feel that, to sit with my alternative process\u2014so jumping out at the mailperson. So, to me there\u2019s that process of slowing down and being like, what is the lesson?<\/span><\/p>\n

In group process, this becomes the difference between groups that feel like they are succeeding and actually can make a change and groups that constantly feel like they\u2019re failing regardless of what they\u2019re actually doing in the world. I see a lot of social justice groups that constantly feel like they\u2019re failing, are behind the curve, and it\u2019s like, we\u2019re actually up against insurmountable odds. We have to pull off miracles if we\u2019re going to save human life on this planet at this point. So, we could feel like failures all the time but that\u2019s not going to save our lives. We have to be learning from everything that we\u2019re doing, how to keep improving and how to keep growing.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I\u2019m curious if there\u2019s something in your own life where you would say this was a really big thing that \u201cfelt like a failure to me and I was able to reframe it in time,\u201d and how you reframed it?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>That\u2019s a good question. Most recently I\u2014there\u2019s so many. As a human being I\u2019m stacked full of things that felt like failures in the moment, but most recently when they started announcing like, \u201cOK, people who are vaccinated can go outside with no mask and spend time with other vaccinated people and all this.\u201d My partner was like, \u201cI\u2019m ready to go outside and hang out with people.\u201d I freaked out and totally was having meltdowns and just like, \u201cI don\u2019t understand why you need friends. It\u2019s not safe.\u201d I wasn\u2019t going about it in a good way. I wasn\u2019t going about in a mindful way. I was just really acting from fear. And it wasn\u2019t a quick thing\u2014it wasn\u2019t like I just realized that the next day. It took me a couple months of sitting in it and feeling so scared and unable to communicate well and frustration between us.<\/span><\/p>\n

I finally was able to recognize, to get curious. I was like, \u201cWhy am I failing in this transition? I\u2019m the change goddess, why am I unable to change right now?\u201d And I had to really learn like, we\u2019re in a stage where boundaries are super unclear and negotiating boundaries is happening at individual level when it actually should be kind of a collective journey that we\u2019re in. And what I learned about myself in that moment was that I was trying to control the future and control the world and control my partner and control everything, things that were out of my control. And instead, I had to sit with the fact that there\u2019s a lot that I\u2019m not in control of. And I had to get back right-sized into myself. And I had to ask for the boundaries that I actually needed. The ones that were reasonable boundaries.<\/span><\/p>\n

When I did that, instead of sitting in the fear, when I sat in, \u201cHere\u2019s what I need,\u201d my partner was so open, so receptive. We had a totally different kind of conversation. We got on the same side. I was able to hear her. She\u2019s like, \u201cI\u2019m not not afraid. I just need people. I need people to survive.\u201d She\u2019s much more extroverted than I am. I\u2019m like, \u201cI just need me and the turtle and you. That\u2019s fine.\u201d She\u2019s like, \u201cThat\u2019s also not true. You\u2019re just terrified.\u201d It was so helpful to learn that I was scared and to say, I\u2019m not going to let the fear shape and control the rest of my life in this period of my life. So now we\u2019re navigating boundaries, we\u2019re making decisions, but I\u2019m sleeping much better because I\u2019m not trying to control everybody else around me. I\u2019m just articulating the boundaries I need.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>[Yes.]<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Thank you. Thanks for sharing that example. It makes it really real.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now I want to understand from your work as a facilitator and all of this terrific discovery work that you did and starting to articulate the principles of <\/span>Emergent Strategy<\/span><\/i>, how <\/span>Pleasure Activism<\/span><\/i> emerged as the next book you wanted to write and as something that was so important to you to really stand in and stand for?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>I was really surprised that <\/span>Pleasure Activism <\/span><\/i>was the next book that wanted to be written. It kept knocking at the door. It just kept coming back and being like, \u201cThis is really important.\u201d And I think at the time I was deeply immersed in some fairly large-scale movement work that I was seeing so much misery. I was seeing so many people who are trying to change the world but everything that was happening in their bodies, in their somas, in their systems, in their relationships was \u201cno\u201d and misery and repression. And they would secretly pull me off to the side to talk about drugs or sex or other things that were giving them some respite. So, I started writing this column that was about sex and about pleasure because I was like, \u201cI just want to have anyone who\u2019s thinking about changing the world needs to be able to touch into the yes.\u201d You have to be able to have that erotic sense of yes. You have to have something compelling that is moving you forward. \u201cNo\u201d is not a path forward, right?<\/span><\/p>\n

I read, maybe for the 50th time, this essay from Audre Lorde called [\u201cUses of the Erotic: The Erotic as Power\u201d] which I got permission to include in <\/span>Pleasure Activism<\/span><\/i>. And in it, she talks about how when we have experienced that erotic, yes, inside of ourselves, it becomes impossible to settle for a self-negation and despair and depression and these other states that are not natural to us. And I found that a revelation for people who especially have been marginalized and oppressed in some way\u2014which, part of how oppression works is it is trying to pressure you into believing that you are less than, and that you should settle for less, that you should settle for being in service, that you should settle for a minimum wage, that you should settle for the scraps, the droppings, the drags of life. We\u2019re trying to reclaim our humanity from that oppression. And it seemed particularly important to me that women, people of color, trans people, people with disabilities, people who had been cast out of society or cast down into lower classes of society, be able to reclaim that erotic yes and it\u2019s been incredible.<\/span><\/p>\n

That book process has been incredible. I get so many messages from people who are reclaiming some aspect of themselves and discovering that they have a yes. That they\u2019ve always had that yes. We start off with the yes. If you\u2019re around kids, kids are very clear like, \u201cI want this. I know what I want. This is what I like. I want to play. I\u2019m so alive.\u201d And it\u2019s, how do we reclaim that life force energy? And it\u2019s so beautiful. I get a lot of really interesting messages from people too, who are like, \u201cI just had an orgasm, I just did this.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cGreat. Yes.\u201d But the thing that most excites me is that aliveness that, in the face of all this oppression, could make it very hard to want to stay alive and be alive, that that aliveness can be cultivated.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/b> One thing that I imagine coming up for people who are so in touch with pain and the world is, \u201cHow do I start on the path of <\/span>Pleasure Activism<\/span><\/i> without denying or pushing away or putting on top of, like lipstick, this pleasure on top of the heartbreak I\u2019m feeling?\u201d And I wonder how you work with that?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>Well, one of the things that I explore in the book is that pleasure it\u2019s not hedonistic activism, right? It\u2019s not only the good, only the indulgent, and it\u2019s not excess activism, right? And I actually write about that, that it\u2019s not about the capitalist version of these things but it\u2019s more about being able to really feel yourself and feel the truth inside of yourself. What is a yes? What is a no? What is your boundary? What is your consent? What is a coping mechanism? What makes you feel more alive? And getting clear on all that. And pleasure is only actually possible when you can feel the widest range of your emotions. So if I\u2019m denying that I\u2019m angry, I can\u2019t have a good orgasm, right? I can\u2019t actually access a deep connection with a friend if I\u2019m pushing down something that really needs to be present and accounted for, if I\u2019m grieving, I need a shoulder to cry on.<\/span><\/p>\n

Sometimes the pleasure is in that moment, right? Of deep connection. So that\u2019s part of what it is, is can we return to ourselves the full range of our emotional being, the full range of our lives and the full range of our erotic knowing, and the erotic actually has room for all of those emotions, right? So that\u2019s how I deal with it, is like, on a day like today I start my day with my altar, I think about New Orleans and New York and Afghanistan. And I think about my friends in Haiti. And I think about all the folks in my life who are displaced by wildfires. I think about my friend Malik, who I\u2019m grieving; I go through kind of the suffering and I\u2019m with it. And I honor the lives, the lives that were lived, the lives that are being fought for. That\u2019s a huge part of how I start my day.<\/span><\/p>\n

Then I look at, \u201cWhat is it that I can do in this day? I\u2019m one person. What are the messages I need to share? What are the connections I need to cultivate in a given day?\u201d And then I attend to that. I recognize that in the face of my grief, my work is to live fully, right? To live as fully as I can, not knowing how long I have left, right? Which I think a big part of\u2014and I know this sounds maybe strange to some people\u2014but for me, pleasure activism helped me really get in touch with my mortality in a different way. And I was like, \u201cThis isn\u2019t promised. None of it is promised.\u201d And each day I have a choice to numb, normally move through the day, to give the entire day away to some corporation that doesn\u2019t care about me or to make the choices over how I want to live the day. And if it\u2019s up to me, I choose poetry, I choose writing, I choose family, I choose love and lovemaking and cooking food and touching the earth. If it\u2019s up to me, I choose pleasure.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>[Yes.] When you were talking about being at your altar in the morning, I was reminded of something that I read from your writing on your website, that you light candles for what you can\u2019t carry. And I thought that was so beautiful, so I just said that.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>Yes. It helps me to humble myself to the fact that there are things beyond my capacity to even hold. There\u2019s more grief. My friend, Reverend angel Kyodo williams taught me this, that we basically had the explosion of technology that allows us to know everything that\u2019s happening in the world, but we didn\u2019t have the simultaneous explosion of our soul\u2019s capacity to hold all of that suffering and all of that grief. So, if you go back 200 years, humans only knew about what was happening in their close circle and news moved very slowly while you were expected to hold in a given day was very different than it is now.<\/span><\/p>\n

Now you have to hold what grief is happening in your own local life. And you also have to be like, \u201cHow do I sit with the suffering of every everyone else? And how do I deal with what\u2019s happening to the Amazon?\u201d And I\u2019ve definitely given whole days over to the grief of all that is. And then I found that\u2014I\u2019m like, \u201cWhat did I do to contribute to the good on those days?\u201d I find that it really helps to light the candles. And some days there are 20 candles, some days there\u2019s just one, but I light those candles. I give it over like, \u201cThis is what I can hold, it\u2019ll burn.\u201d I liked the way for those souls that need to transition and find their way on and then I bring my attention back to the living, the life that I have to live.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>[Yes.] I want to ask a question that\u2019s maybe a little edgy, that came up for me in reading <\/span>Pleasure Activism<\/span><\/i>. It has to do with this notion you were talking about how sometimes people can mix up coping, how we\u2019re using, and I was thinking specifically of someone that I knew who seemed to me like a sex addict. Now this is just my impression from the outside. And maybe I was falsely judging this person, I\u2019m not sure. But I thought, how do we know the difference\u2014this is the core of the question\u2014in our own life when we\u2019re using something like erotic stimulation as a coping mechanism versus a way to know our full liveliness? How do you sort that out? How does anyone sort that out?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>I love this question actually. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s too edgy. I think it\u2019s a great question. I have found in my own life I\u2019ve been on all of the different parts of the spectrum, right? I\u2019ve used sex and drugs as ways to cope, ways to escape, ways to cover things up. And I\u2019ve also had the experience of being deeply present and deeply mindful and deeply transformed by those same experiences. So much of it is what\u2019s happening internally and what\u2019s driving the decision-making internally. So, as I\u2019ve gotten older, and I\u2019ve done more meditation and other things, a lot has come to me around attachment and agency. And what I think of as making the difference is, am I attached to a good feeling that is not actually aligned with what\u2019s going on in my life? Am I trying to escape what\u2019s happening in my life? You can escape it and then you wake back up the next day after that binge and it\u2019s still there and you have to escape it again and escape it again. That\u2019s not a way to live, right?<\/span><\/p>\n

For me there\u2019s this beautiful framework in harm reduction that\u2019s drug, set, and setting. And I think about drug has any substance, right? So, it could be sex. It could be a specific drug, prescription drug, or might just be some experience. Some people get this from the gym or something else. But whatever it is, [it\u2019s a] thing that gives you an intensity of feeling.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cSet\u201d is the mindset. What is your mindset? Are you in a state of depression, agitation, confusion, or are you in a state of clear mindedness where you can actually look at this?<\/span><\/p>\n

Then setting. I think of setting both as the immediate setting. So when I was learning this, it was for people who were using injection drugs. And I was like, \u201cOK, you\u2019re using this drug, you\u2019re feeling depressed and you\u2019re in a public park.\u201d That\u2019s a high, high, high-risk situation, right? Versus you\u2019re using this injection drug and you\u2019re maybe in an agitated mindset but you\u2019re in a safe injection site. That\u2019s a lower risk situation in which to do it, right? I think of that all the time in my own life, even with something like ice cream, which is one of my indulgent places.<\/span><\/p>\n

I\u2019m like, \u201cOK, ice cream is the thing I want. What\u2019s my mindset right now?\u201d If I\u2019m depressed, I wait on the ice cream and I try to sit and figure out\u2014can I feel the feeling? How much can I handle actually being present with the feeling? And something that started happening to me a few years ago is I would hold back just a bit and then tears would come. If I could wait and not open the freezer, there was actually so much that wanted to be a motive, but it was showing up in the form of \u201cGo eat ice cream.\u201d Does that make sense?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>It makes a lot of sense, yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>Yes. So for me, that\u2019s been the measure is, and I think about it with a lot of things, especially as I found myself in a much more stable place mentally and emotionally, I\u2019m like, \u201cThe world is going to shit. It\u2019s very overwhelming but I\u2019m actually doing OK.\u201d And so how do I want to engage in the things that bring me pleasure from that place? How do I make sure I\u2019m not turning away from the world to indulge myself, but being, right now I really think about, how do I let my orgasms and my ice cream and my joints and whatever else I\u2019m using, how do I let that be of service to my health and my wellbeing and being a good channel through which I can hear what the universe wants me to write and say?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>OK adrienne, just a few more questions for you. One more in this area of <\/span>Pleasure Activism<\/span><\/i>, which is, I think one thing that\u2019s hard for a lot of us is to have a full pleasurable embrace of the shape of our body, the size, the contour, the age, all of that. There\u2019s something about us that we don\u2019t feel satisfied with, would be a nice way to put it. That we would be a problem or accurate way to put it against\u2014\u201ccan\u2019t stand,\u201d \u201cloathe.\u201d And I\u2019d like to understand more from your own journey, with <\/span>Pleasure Activism <\/span><\/i>and yourself, how you\u2019ve come into this pleasurable embrace with your own body?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>That\u2019s great. I love this question because I think many of us, I grew up immersed in a societal obsession with fixing the body, changing the body, dieting, exercising that there\u2019s something wrong with all of our bodies. And I\u2019ve never really met someone, even people who had bodies that seemed totally perfect to me. I\u2019ve never really met someone who, when I talked to them, it wasn\u2019t like, \u201cOh, here\u2019s what I\u2019m trying to change about my body,\u201d which I think is, in and of itself, fascinating, but then I grew up as a fat girl. Basically, as soon as puberty hit, I started gaining weight and it\u2019s gone up and down over the years. And the socialization was, you have to fix this. In my family, in my friends circles, every other space\u2014you have to fix, you have to fix, you have to fix it.<\/span><\/p>\n

At a certain point in my late \u201820s, early \u201830s, I woke up one day and I was like, \u201cI don\u2019t want this to be the obsession of my life. I don\u2019t want to feel constantly like there\u2019s something I need to be fixing about myself.\u201d What would it look like to intentionally choose to love this body, to accept it as it is and to love it and to listen to it? Because there might be changes that are needed but I don\u2019t want them to be externally driven. I really want to listen to my body from the inside out. What I\u2019ve later learned is the Ayurvedic approaches, your body is healthy. And you\u2019re always trying to return to health if you fall away from health, you just returning to health. I was like my own version of that.<\/span><\/p>\n

I started with my left pinky finger. I would look in the mirror and I would look at that body part and offer love to it. Just like, \u201cThank you for everything you do to help me when I\u2019m writing and grasping onto things and being a part of hugs.\u201d Just really kind of going in on that. And the left pinky finger was the place that I could start because it was really, I couldn\u2019t argue with how lovable my left pinky finger was, right? And I had to work my way up to places that were much, much harder, much more challenging to love, like my arms, my thighs, my belly. These were the parts that society told me where impossible to love, right? Like they\u2019re fat. I have stretch marks, there\u2019s cellulite, there\u2019s all the things. And yet it\u2019s a miraculous part of my miraculous body that is carrying my reckless life through this world. And there\u2019s something massive and strong and beautiful about the particular body that I have, and it\u2019s full of stories.<\/span><\/p>\n

One of the things I did, I don\u2019t know if people will be able to see this, but I found creatures that inspired me. For my arms, I put an elephant and a cow on my arms. So that when I walk around, if I start to forget how beautiful the big, wide, massive shapes of life can be, I\u2019m reminded of these creatures that are the most peaceful, beautiful, powerful, righteous in many places, sacred creatures on earth. And I\u2019m like, \u201cI\u2019m also like that, right?\u201d I don\u2019t imagine the elephants walk around like, \u201cAh, my butt looks big.\u201d It\u2019s like, \u201cI am massive. Being big is the beautiful thing about me.\u201d And I also want to say to people who are in this, it\u2019s not, again, a static thing. It\u2019s not like I just got to that place and I was like, \u201cThat\u2019s it. I\u2019ll just love my body now and forever.\u201d Every day I have to re attend to this work.<\/span><\/p>\n

I had 30-plus, 40-plus years of being trained not to love my body and to think it needs fixing and to think I need to diet and all this other stuff. So, every single day I have to do some kind of intervention. I find with myself still to be like, \u201cWait a second, you are not wrong.\u201d You as an existing body are not wrong, you\u2019re miraculous. And if you\u2019re in pain, there\u2019s a lesson there. What is the lesson? Was your body trying to communicate to you? And now I feel like I\u2019m in that zone of my life, where I\u2019m like, \u201cI\u2019m aging. I have arthritis. I\u2019m getting lines. I have gray hairs. How amazing is that? I made it this far. I\u2019m going to keep making it. An old body is a blessing. I\u2019m still here. There\u2019s still life to be lived.\u201d I\u2019m learning that every day.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>It\u2019s interesting you brought up the elephant and how the elephant feels in its body. And one of the parts of your writing that I just really enjoyed, that titillated me, was your many references to different species and what you\u2019ve learned from them. And there\u2019s a lot we could cover here, but let\u2019s just go for two of your favorites that you referred to a lot\u2014the mushrooms and the mycelium network and what we can learn from them, and dandelions; let\u2019s cover those.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>I\u2019m super into mushrooms. I\u2019m super into mycelium. I\u2019ve been learning so much about it. I actually just was checking, I have a mushroom log in my backyard that I\u2019m hoping will be sprouting any minute now, but I\u2019m trying to actually, it\u2019s got a mycelial network growing inside of it that eventually will spout the fruit of mushrooms, right? But mushrooms have been blowing my mind. There\u2019s this writer named Paul Stamets who I think a lot of people may be familiar with. I\u2019m kind of obsessed with. There\u2019s a movie called <\/span>Fantastic Fungi<\/span><\/i>. The thing I love about them is that they are like the great detoxifiers of the earth. They can process almost anything into nourishment for themselves. So they\u2019re the composters, right? When something dies in the forest, fungi, fungi, fungi, is what comes in. It figures out, \u201cHow do we compost this? What do we use it for? How do we communicate that this is here to the rest of the known world?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

And then I also love that they can be used to detox actual spaces. If, when we start to recognize that we have put so much toxin to the earth and that needs to turn around, mushrooms are one of the ways that we can say, \u201cOK, let\u2019s put mushrooms on this ground and let the mushrooms actually detox this soil and bring it back into health.\u201d I use it as a reference point for thinking about people who folks want to dispose [of], and behaviors, human behaviors, that we want to dispose of, is what would it look like to instead be like the mushrooms and figure out how to detox that negative behavior or that violent impulse into something that we let it nourish and we let it move out of our system?<\/span><\/p>\n

I\u2019m also obsessed with how mycelium communicate between trees and other stuff in the forest. So anyway, that\u2019s one whole vibe, and then dandelions are another magical healing property. You can eat dandelion roots and drink dandelion tea to actually heal the human body. They\u2019re thought of as a weed. You often hear them referred to as a weed, something people try to get rid of, but dandelions carry their entire society in themselves. So when you blow a dandelion that is ready, it\u2019s that soft white, I think of it as a little soft, white afro of a flower, but when you blow that and all the little dandelions seeds go out, each one lands and it can reproduce an entire field of dandelions. And that to me is just astounding. It\u2019s like, how do we be as fecund as a dandelion can be? How do we access the healing properties that we have to bring to any circumstance or situation?<\/span><\/p>\n

I love the misunderstanding of being seen as a weed when it\u2019s like actually a healer. I think of that when I look at the communities that I love and come from, that a lot of us have been seen as weeds, as something to control, as something to remove or exercise, and actually we\u2019re healers unto each other. We can be healers unto the planet. I think that Indigenous communities, those who are still in touch with the original instruction of this earth are dandelions, right? Each of them carries within them whole tomes of wisdom of what we need in order to be in right relationship with the planet.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>We started our conversation, adrienne, by talking about fractals. It\u2019s like the mushrooms in us and the dandelions in us.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>Exactly. Because I think that\u2019s the thing is we\u2019re all of the same stuff. We\u2019re all nature. If we think of nature as something other than human, that\u2019s where we have gone astray. We are of all the same stuff. Literally, we have ancestral lineage to mushrooms. We have ancestral lineage to stars\u2014and that\u2019s not being woo-woo. That\u2019s just science shows us that, that\u2019s the stuff we\u2019re made of. So I like drawing on that aspect of the lineage, especially as someone who\u2019s been displaced from so much of my lineage, I like knowing that it\u2019s like, \u201cWell, no matter what, I\u2019m of earth.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>adrienne, I have to bring our conversation to a close, even though I\u2019m finding it extremely challenging inside myself here.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>Yes. It\u2019s a good problem, though.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Yes. It\u2019s a good problem. You mentioned that you\u2019re a post-nationalist and you shared briefly that, in the future, you could see us living more in a tribal configuration. And I mentioned in introducing you that you\u2019re a sci-fi scholar. One of the things I loved learning is from you is your love of science fiction and what could be called speculative fiction, visions of the future. <\/span> I\u2019d like to end on the note of understanding why you think envisioning the future is so useful now, even though we have all\u2014\u201cCome on. Isn\u2019t that just fantastical, like really? Come on,\u201d you know?\u2014and what your vision is, if you were just to say, \u201cOK, not only why it\u2019s important, but I\u2019ll go ahead. I\u2019ll share my sci-fi.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>That\u2019s what I\u2019ve been doing.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

amb: <\/b>Well, yes. I mean, I think that the thing that makes the future important to me is that the world that we currently live in was imagined by other people. So, we\u2019re walking around inside of someone else\u2019s imagination of how this world could work. Someone imagined white supremacy. That\u2019s not real, there\u2019s no science basis for it, but someone imagined it and then they shared that imagination until it took hold in people\u2019s minds and some people actually believed it and structured entire societies around it, right? Someone imagined our current incarceration system and was like, \u201cOh, this is how we\u2019ll handle justice.\u201d And even though it doesn\u2019t work, the imagination that it will work, the imagination that it will rehabilitate people in some way, keeps us committed to this dysfunctional system.<\/span><\/p>\n

When Mike Brown was killed, right? He was killed because a police officer imagined that he was in danger, even though this was an unarmed kid who was walking home from the store. And that imagination was so powerful that it held up in court, that they were like, \u201cOh, he imagined he was in danger and that\u2019s more important than what was really happening.\u201d So, I think imagination is so important.<\/span><\/p>\n

Then I think thinking of the future is a way that we recognize that the circumstances, the thing that we\u2019ve been imagined and living into now, doesn\u2019t actually work for the majority of us. We want to imagine the futures that actually work for the majority of us. And I think we have to imagine it before we can begin to structure it, begin to practice it.<\/span><\/p>\n

Already people have imagined abolition and already people have imagined socialism, people have imagined cooperative economics, people have imagined a disability justice framework for the world. So now we\u2019re practicing. How do we live into a different way of being in right relationship with each other? My vision for the world, my vision for the future is one in which everyone feels like their imaginations matter. Everyone feels like their bodies matter, and they have sovereignty over what they get to decide to do with their bodies. Everyone feels a sense of responsibility to the collective, to the whole, and we make decisions together. So, it\u2019s, I get to choose what I do with my body and I\u2019m in relationship with a whole bunch of other people who I actually care about and we make decisions together.<\/span><\/p>\n

And in my vision of the future, we\u2019re in a totally, wildly different relationship with the planet and it\u2019s a direct one and it kind of scares me to think about it. Like, \u201cAh, what would it feel like to do this?\u201d But I love the idea that, and I think we are structured to be in communities that are growing our food together and raising our children together and where people get to feel safe. I imagine these mycelial networks of human beings where we still get to have a global experience but it\u2019s not one where we\u2019re taking advantage of each other or warmongering, but one in which we are sharing what we figure out, sharing what is delicious, sharing what is pleasurable amongst us, and of course, we\u2019re in touch with aliens who are very cool and it\u2019s awesome.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I\u2019ve been speaking with adrienne maree brown, and I have to say I feel a big yes inside as I listened to the description you\u2019re offering as our possible future and the power of imagining it together. Thank you so much for the depth of this conversation and really all the work you\u2019ve done, deep work on <\/span>Emergent Strategy<\/span><\/i> and <\/span>Pleasure Activism<\/span><\/i> and your new book <\/span>Holding Change.<\/span><\/i><\/p>\n

Thank you for listening to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>. You can read a full transcript of today\u2019s interview at SoundsTrue.com\/podcast. And, if you\u2019re interested, hit the Subscribe button in your podcast app. And also, if you feel inspired, head to iTunes and leave <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i> of review. I love getting your feedback, being in connection with you and learning how we can continue to evolve and improve our program. Working together, I believe we can create a kinder and wiser world. SoundsTrue.com: waking up in the world.<\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"template":"","meta":{"_expiration-date-status":"","_expiration-date":0,"_expiration-date-type":"","_expiration-date-categories":[],"_expiration-date-options":[]},"class_list":["post-9537","transcript","type-transcript","status-publish","hentry"],"yoast_head":"\nEmbracing Pleasure Fractal Responsibility And The Power O...<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Embracing Pleasure Fractal Responsibility And The Power Of Our Imagination. Explore teachings o\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"noindex, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Embracing Pleasure Fractal Responsibility And The Power O...\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Embracing Pleasure Fractal Responsibility And The Power Of Our Imagination. Explore teachings o\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/embracing-pleasure-fractal-responsibility-and-the-power-of-our-imagination\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Sounds True\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"60 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/embracing-pleasure-fractal-responsibility-and-the-power-of-our-imagination\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/embracing-pleasure-fractal-responsibility-and-the-power-of-our-imagination\/\",\"name\":\"Embracing Pleasure Fractal Responsibility And The Power O...\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#website\"},\"datePublished\":\"2021-11-02T19:33:55+00:00\",\"description\":\"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Embracing Pleasure Fractal Responsibility And The Power Of Our Imagination. Explore teachings o\",\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/embracing-pleasure-fractal-responsibility-and-the-power-of-our-imagination\/#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/embracing-pleasure-fractal-responsibility-and-the-power-of-our-imagination\/\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/embracing-pleasure-fractal-responsibility-and-the-power-of-our-imagination\/#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"Transcripts\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":3,\"name\":\"Embracing Pleasure, Fractal Responsibility, and the Power of Our Imagination\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/\",\"name\":\"Sounds True\",\"description\":\"\",\"publisher\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#organization\"},\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":{\"@type\":\"PropertyValueSpecification\",\"valueRequired\":true,\"valueName\":\"search_term_string\"}}],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"Organization\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#organization\",\"name\":\"Sounds True\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/\",\"logo\":{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#\/schema\/logo\/image\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/08\/soundstrue-logo-footer-color.png\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/08\/soundstrue-logo-footer-color.png\",\"width\":1035,\"height\":235,\"caption\":\"Sounds True\"},\"image\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#\/schema\/logo\/image\/\"}}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Embracing Pleasure Fractal Responsibility And The Power O...","description":"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Embracing Pleasure Fractal Responsibility And The Power Of Our Imagination. Explore teachings o","robots":{"index":"noindex","follow":"follow","max-snippet":"max-snippet:-1","max-image-preview":"max-image-preview:large","max-video-preview":"max-video-preview:-1"},"og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"Embracing Pleasure Fractal Responsibility And The Power O...","og_description":"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Embracing Pleasure Fractal Responsibility And The Power Of Our Imagination. Explore teachings o","og_url":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/embracing-pleasure-fractal-responsibility-and-the-power-of-our-imagination\/","og_site_name":"Sounds True","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_misc":{"Est. reading time":"60 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/embracing-pleasure-fractal-responsibility-and-the-power-of-our-imagination\/","url":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/embracing-pleasure-fractal-responsibility-and-the-power-of-our-imagination\/","name":"Embracing Pleasure Fractal Responsibility And The Power O...","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#website"},"datePublished":"2021-11-02T19:33:55+00:00","description":"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Embracing Pleasure Fractal Responsibility And The Power Of Our Imagination. Explore teachings o","breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/embracing-pleasure-fractal-responsibility-and-the-power-of-our-imagination\/#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/embracing-pleasure-fractal-responsibility-and-the-power-of-our-imagination\/"]}]},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/embracing-pleasure-fractal-responsibility-and-the-power-of-our-imagination\/#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"Transcripts","item":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":3,"name":"Embracing Pleasure, Fractal Responsibility, and the Power of Our Imagination"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#website","url":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/","name":"Sounds True","description":"","publisher":{"@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#organization"},"potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":{"@type":"PropertyValueSpecification","valueRequired":true,"valueName":"search_term_string"}}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Organization","@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#organization","name":"Sounds True","url":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/","logo":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#\/schema\/logo\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/08\/soundstrue-logo-footer-color.png","contentUrl":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/08\/soundstrue-logo-footer-color.png","width":1035,"height":235,"caption":"Sounds True"},"image":{"@id":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/#\/schema\/logo\/image\/"}}]}},"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/transcript\/9537","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/transcript"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/transcript"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=9537"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}