{"id":9646,"date":"2021-12-13T15:56:31","date_gmt":"2021-12-13T22:56:31","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?post_type=transcript&p=9646"},"modified":"2021-12-13T15:56:31","modified_gmt":"2021-12-13T22:56:31","slug":"what-you-can-do-to-make-your-relationship-work","status":"publish","type":"transcript","link":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/what-you-can-do-to-make-your-relationship-work\/","title":{"rendered":"What You Can Do to Make Your Relationship Work"},"content":{"rendered":"
\"image_print\"Print Transcript<\/span><\/a><\/div>

Tami Simon:<\/b> Welcome to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i> produced by Sounds True. My name\u2019s Tami Simon. I\u2019m the founder of Sounds True. And I\u2019d love to take a moment to introduce you to the new Sounds True foundation. The Sounds True foundation is dedicated to creating a wiser and kinder world by making transformational education widely available. We want everyone to have access to transformational tools such as mindfulness, emotional awareness and self-compassion regardless of financial, social, or physical challenges. The Sounds True Foundation is a nonprofit dedicated to providing these transformational tools to communities in need, including at-risk youth, prisoners, veterans, and those in developing countries. If you\u2019d like to learn more or feel inspired to become a supporter, please visit SoundsTrueFoundation.org.<\/span><\/p>\n

You\u2019re listening to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>. Today my guest is Elizabeth Earnshaw. Liz is a licensed marriage and family therapist, the founder of A Better Life Therapy and a certified Gottman Method couple\u2019s therapist. She specializes in the areas of infidelity and betrayal, grief and trauma, and she also trains and supervises new therapists who are seeking their licenses in the counseling field. With Sounds True, Liz has written a new book. It\u2019s called <\/span>I Want This to Work: An Inclusive Guide to Navigating the Most Difficult Relationship Issues We Face in the Modern Age.<\/span><\/i><\/p>\n

Liz is just 35 years of age, and she holds not just so much wisdom and information and good recommendations for how to build lasting relationships that are filled with love, but she\u2019s humble and open and sincere and a terrific educator. I learned so much from talking with her and most of all, she lifted up my heart to be such a young person who is so dedicated to helping people build loving relationships that lasts. Here\u2019s my conversation with Elizabeth Earnshaw.<\/span><\/p>\n

As a way to begin Liz, I wonder if you can share with our listeners by way of giving some background about you, how you first decided, what was the path that took you to becoming a therapist who specialized working with couples?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Elizabeth Earnshaw:<\/b> I love this question. My obvious path was that I was very lost in my life after I graduated my undergrad, and I didn\u2019t know what I wanted to do. So, I was driving down a highway and I saw a billboard that advertised a marriage and family therapy program. And I said, \u201cThat\u2019s calling my name for some reason. I\u2019m interested in it,\u201d and I applied for it, and I got in, and the rest was history. But the less obvious answer is that, clearly, I was drawn to that for some reason, clearly that spoke to me for some reason, which is that I think that I grew up like so many of us in very dysfunctional relational dynamics. And from a young age, I was always fascinated about how relationships worked, I always wanted to understand them, I always felt like I was watching people and thinking, \u201cWhat are you doing? Why are you interacting this way?\u201d And so, to me, it\u2019s been like a lifelong journey to figure out how to have healthy relationships for myself and to also help others do that as well.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Liz, I\u2019m under the impression\u2014tell me if you think this is accurate or not\u2014that doing couples work is some of the most challenging therapeutic work, both for the therapist and the couple that\u2019s in therapy. Do you think that\u2019s true?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>For me, I\u2019ve actually found it to feel easier to do in the actual session, but I have heard from others that it feels really challenging for them because I think conflict is really uncomfortable even for therapists to be in the midst of. It is absolutely challenging. For me, there\u2019s something about how dynamic it is, there\u2019s something about how much people can bounce off of each other and learn from each other that is so invigorating and exciting that it makes it so that my days go by very quickly, and it\u2019s just something I\u2019m incredibly passionate about. So I don\u2019t find it terribly challenging.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>OK. That\u2019s interesting. What I know from a lot of friends that I\u2019ve had historically, is that they\u2019ve gone to see couples counselors to help them and the report is, \u201cWell, that didn\u2019t really work. We\u2019re going to try this other person because that didn\u2019t really work.\u201d Tell me, what do you think about your approach, working with people, makes it effective? I\u2019m presuming you do think it\u2019s effective. What makes it effective?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>Yes, there\u2019s so many different forms of couples therapy and there so many different training paths that people go down. And I\u2019m a licensed marriage and family therapist. I went to school as a couples and family therapist. My training is really based in relational therapy from the get-go. A lot of people that end up practicing couples therapy, they weren\u2019t initially relationally focused, they are individual therapists that move into couples\u2019 work. And so couples\u2019 work is much more dynamic than individual work. You have to really learn to push people back together through their conflict, help them to communicate with each other, and move yourself out of it, which I think can sometimes be really challenging for therapists because they\u2019re used to doing the one-on-one\u2014I ask you a question, you give me the answer, and then I ask the other person.<\/span><\/p>\n

I make sure that the couple is not putting their energy towards me, but that they\u2019re putting it towards each other. The other thing that I think is different than what a lot of people experience that I\u2019ve worked with is that I\u2019m really direct. I\u2019m a certified Gottman therapist. Gottman therapy is very directive, so I will stop people and I will say, \u201cHey, I need you to stop for a second. What\u2019s happening right now is something that we know is going to be detrimental and I want to help you to say it differently, but you\u2019ve got to say it differently.\u201d And the feedback I\u2019ve gotten from other people who have done other therapy is that they go, and the therapist allows them to shout at each other the whole time; the therapist gives them no goals and no direction. I think the containment is something that can be really powerful for couples.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>OK. It\u2019s very interesting to me when you say you\u2019re very directive. Would you describe that there\u2019s a framework that you\u2019re working in, a basic kind of belief system or frame, and what is that?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>Yes. I do practice through the framework of Gottman Method couples therapy; it looks at the couple through the framework of things that research has shown makes couples thrive or makes couples suffer together for either a short amount of time or a very long amount of time. When I\u2019m working with a couple I\u2019m continually looking for signs that they either are developing these skills that make them, quote, the masters of relationships, or I\u2019m looking for signs that they could be leading themselves into the disaster zone.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so some of those things are, do they share their internal world with each other? Are they able to trust each other and be trustworthy? Do they have commitment with each other? Like, is it clear to them when they wake up in the morning, even if we were mad at each other last night, I know this person hasn\u2019t just run out on me and given up on me? Do they navigate conflict well? When they share their lives with each other, does the other person care and respond? And is there some united goal that\u2019s holding them into the relationship or is it really diffuse? So, I\u2019m constantly looking for those things to create the goals for therapy.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: [<\/b>Yes.] You mentioned your training in the Gottman Method and that the Gottman Method is research based. Can you share with us some of the research\u2014this is what works, this is what doesn\u2019t work, and this is the research underneath that?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>Yes. It\u2019s fun to talk about because I think a lot of the time, especially with relationship work, it feels so\u2014I don\u2019t know what word to use\u2014fluffy. Like, we don\u2019t realize that there\u2019s definitely research underneath it. The Gottman Institute has been studying couples since the \u201870s. And they have studied them in many forms, so they\u2019ve had them in love labs, they\u2019ve put them into apartments together where they\u2019ve watched them interact. They\u2019ve done all sorts of things to watch couples. And what they have found are a couple of really interesting things. Number one, they\u2019ve been able to\u2014and they actually hook people up to machines to monitor their heart rates while they\u2019re talking to each other\u2014code their interactions; they follow them over many years to see if stay together or they break up, and if they do stay together, even more importantly, are they happy and fulfilled with each other?<\/span><\/p>\n

Some of the really interesting things that they\u2019ve found is that there are four communication habits, which they\u2019ve dubbed \u201cthe four horsemen,\u201d as a play on the four horsemen of the apocalypse. And these four communication habits signal that a couple is in distress and couples therapists trained in the method can predict with over 90 percent accuracy that if a couple is chronically using these four horsemen, they\u2019re going to break up or they\u2019re going to divorce. That\u2019s one piece of the research.<\/span><\/p>\n

Another important piece of the research is that couples who report that they\u2019re happy are turning towards each other more than they\u2019re turning away or against, which sounds really common sense once you hear it out loud, but it\u2019s something that they were able to track. And what that means is, if I said to you, \u201cI love your glasses,\u201d turning towards me would look like saying, \u201cThank you so much. I just got these glasses,\u201d or, \u201cI\u2019ve worn these same glasses for years.\u201d If you turned against me, you would say something like, \u201cWhy are you telling me that? I don\u2019t care if you like my glasses.\u201d Turning away from me would be just no response at all. And for anybody listening, you did turn towards me, you smiled just now.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Oh, yes. Thank you so much. And I\u2019d be happy to share more with you. I got these glasses when I was in Iceland with my wife. She was like, \u201cYou need an accessory.\u201d But anyway, I definitely want to turn towards you, Liz. Thank you so much. And I have to say, I really like the way you have your hair pulled back and that it shows your eyes so beautifully.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>Oh, thank you. But you did a beautiful job of turning towards before you even said anything. You were taking notes and you looked up and you smiled at me. And when we track interactions in relationships, they just have to be these small moments actually. You could have said nothing else, just the smiling at me made me already feel safe to turn towards you again. You did that, and now I\u2019m going to keep turning towards you the rest of the call, because you made me feel safe. But we can track this with couples. The research shows that when couples are turning towards 80 percent or more of bids that they are\u2014and me saying that to you was a bid\u2014more likely to stay together and that they\u2019re more likely to report being happy. If they don\u2019t do that, then they\u2019re more likely to be unhappy. So those are some of the most fun research findings to share.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Yes. And I want to talk a little bit more about both of these different categories of research findings. You mentioned the word \u201cbids.\u201d Let\u2019s just describe what\u2019s that when a couple is making a bid for connection in some way with each other.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>Yes. Bids for connection are big and little moments where people are trying to connect with each other. And we do these with strangers. So, if I go into Starbucks and I say to somebody, \u201cI love how you changed your hair this week. It looks so pretty,\u201d I\u2019m making a bid. If I hold a door open for someone, I\u2019m making a bid, but with our partners, we make all sorts of bids. We might say something like, \u201cWow, did you see how beautiful it is outside?\u201d Or we might make a sound like [<\/span>Sigh<\/span><\/i>] that\u2019s a bid, or we might be very direct and say, \u201cCan you give me a hug?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

There are all these things we do to get response from the other person. There are positive bids. The things I just mentioned are positive. And there\u2019s also what we call negative bids, which might be picking a fight, rolling your eyes, any of those types of things to get attention, but we do these things to connect.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>If I understand you right, when our partner makes a bid for connection, whether it\u2019s small or large, what\u2019s going to predict whether we\u2019ll be happy years from now is if I turn towards. Turning against might mean saying something like \u201cWho cares?\u201d or \u201cHarumph,\u201d or I don\u2019t know what\u2014and then turning away would be just ignoring them altogether.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>Yes. [\u2026] Turning away has been found to be the most detrimental, which is interesting, because you would think it\u2019s not as mean; but when people are turning away, there\u2019s no energy anymore. And if there\u2019s no energy, there\u2019s nothing to work with. Turning against is exactly what you said. It\u2019s being like, \u201cHarumph. I don\u2019t care. Why are you talking to me? Your idea\u2019s stupid.\u201d But that can still be worked with in many ways, because then the person can push back, they can get in an argument, and they can figure it out. But yep, exactly. Just what you said.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>The silent treatment really doesn\u2019t work, not a good strategy, not useful, no.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>Not useful. And being on your cell phone when your partner\u2019s trying to connect with you, not useful. There are so many things right now, I think, that are really escalating the amount of times that we turn away that just weren\u2019t present before. So, it\u2019s a huge problem right now.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>OK. Now let\u2019s talk a little bit more about these four communication habits that you also said were research-based. And your new book <\/span>I Want This to Work<\/span><\/i>, it covers dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens\u2014it\u2019s really packed, it\u2019s dense\u2014it covers a lot of different skills you can use to be successful, bonded, happy, interdependent, to use your word in relationships. And we\u2019ll talk about that. But I\u2019m starting with this research-based work from the Gottman Institute because I noticed it really got my attention. And I think maybe that is because I find the whole relational field like a big ocean to swim in, and suddenly you bring in, \u201cOh, this is research-based.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

And I sit up and I think, \u201cOh good. Somebody\u2019s going to tell me something that there\u2019s some evidence behind it.\u201d OK. So, let\u2019s talk about these four communication habits. In the book you offer antidotes to each one. So instead of criticism, you offer the antidote that instead of criticizing our partner, we can put the problem in front of both of us and talk about it as a need. I\u2019m wondering if you can give me an example of that, of how a couple perhaps might have been criticizing each other and then made this shift.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>Yes. I\u2019ll use the very cliche dishes example that couples fight over. An example of what it would look like to criticize would be if I went downstairs and I said to my husband, \u201cAndrew, you never clean the dishes. They\u2019re always such a mess when I come down the steps\u201d\u2014I\u2019m likely going to get defensiveness, and that\u2019s not going to get us anywhere. But if instead I can recognize that the problem is the dishes\u2014that\u2019s the thing that\u2019s making me really mad. I\u2019m upset that my partner didn\u2019t do them, but I\u2019m actually upset about the dishes. Like, if the dishes didn\u2019t exist in that sink, we would be great.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

If I can identify that my problem is the dishes\u2014and under that, what\u2019s my need? My need is that I want to relax after work, my need is that I want a clean kitchen, my need is that I want to feel like I\u2019m being helped.<\/span> There are these needs underneath the problem. Once you can identify those, you can bring it up so much more gently in a way where the other person isn\u2019t going to have to defend themselves. And maybe I\u2019m still mad and that\u2019s okay, but I could go downstairs and say, \u201cHey, I\u2019ve noticed I come down here every day at the end of work and the dishes are filled to the brim, and I feel really frustrated because at the end of the day, I just want to be able to chill, I just want to hang out, and I need that. I need us to figure out how we\u2019re going to figure out this dish situation.\u201d So, it just changes the way you\u2019re expressing it in a way that is more likely to be received.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now, Liz, I\u2019m just curious, because as you\u2019re working with couples in your office, and you said you\u2019re directive, and you hear them criticizing each other, do you take that as a moment to educate, do you interrupt and you go, \u201cThis is an educational moment\u201d?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>Yes. So, when you said, just a moment ago, that you felt really connected to the fact there\u2019s some evidence around this and you perked up about that, I found, that in couples\u2019 therapy, couples perk up when you do that of them, because it feels grounded in something. And it also makes them not feel criticized, right? I\u2019m not just picking on them, I\u2019m saying, \u201cHey, I\u2019m here to help you. There\u2019s something I know about the way you\u2019re expressing this, that we know from decades of looking at couples is going to cause problems. Can I help you to say it in a new way?\u201d And people receive that really well, and they want a new way to say it, right? They don\u2019t want to lose their listener; they want that person to hear what they have to say. So, it\u2019s something I do the entire time that we\u2019re working in therapy.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>All right. Let\u2019s go into defensiveness. This is another communication habit. What\u2019s the antidote? \u201cI feel defensive. You\u2019re talking to me about the dishes\u201d\u2014we\u2019re just taking this everyday example\u2014\u201cand I\u2019ve got so much going on. I haven\u2019t had a chance.\u201d Who knows?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>Yes. If I was the therapist of that person, I would say that is probably all very true and your perspective is not going to be heard if you don\u2019t take responsibility. So, the antidote is to take responsibility or validate, so either of those things, but to be able to say to your partner at first\u2014you might explain yourself later; that is totally fine. But your initial reaction is to turn towards, right? We just talked about turning towards, being able to say, \u201cYou did have a long day. And you\u2019re right; the dishes are a disgusting mess right now.\u201d Period. Goes a really long way in disarming the other person. That\u2019s all you got to do.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>All right. OK. I do want to cover these last two habits because I thought this section was just so… It was illuminating for me. The third one is stonewalling. That\u2019s another version of turning away. Yes? Just doesn\u2019t work. What do I do when I\u2019m just like, \u201cGod, I do not want to deal right now. This is not my time to be engaging\u201d?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>Stonewalling is super interesting because we actually hook people up to oximeters in the therapy room so that we can see what their heart rate is, their beats per minute. And when people are stonewalling, they look frozen on the outside, but they are full of turmoil on the inside, and they\u2019ll have this thing on their finger that just starts going \u201cbeep beep beep beep beep,\u201d because their heart rate is all the way up. So, if you are a stonewaller, if you\u2019re not able to get words out, if you\u2019re blocking it out, something you really want to work on is recognizing what\u2019s happening in your body, being able to say, \u201cWhew, I can\u2019t get my words out what\u2019s turning off here. My stress hormones are being pumped,\u201d and calming your heart rate, being able to get into a calm space, is the most important thing you could do. We know it takes about 20 minutes for the stress hormones to dump from the bloodstream. So, you have to take a break. So that is the antidote to stonewalling, self-soothing and taking space.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>[Yes.] And then the fourth communication habit that predicts that your relationship will probably not be around in the future is if you express contempt for your partner. So tell us what expressing contempt sounds like and what would be the antidote to that?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>Contempt is criticism supercharged. So it sounds like belittling, taking superiority, being really disgusted with somebody. So while criticism might sound like, \u201cYou never do the dishes,\u201d contempt sounds like, \u201cYou\u2019ve got to be kidding me. You are a flipping pig, and I can\u2019t believe I married you. I am so disgusted.\u201d And there\u2019s a facial expression that comes with contempt and your voice changes. And when this happens, you\u2019ve lost respect, right? It\u2019s not there anymore. And there could be reasons, but your partner feels that. Over time, they\u2019re going to feel incredibly belittled and demeaned, and they\u2019re going to back away from intimacy in the relationship. The antidote to that is to be able to name your feelings and also to take some responsibility and to try to figure out like, \u201cWhere is this coming from? Is there something that needs to be healed within me or with the relationship so that I can actually talk about what\u2019s going on for me instead of pushing this person down a peg?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>All right. This is some of what you learned from the Gottman research. What I\u2019d love to know is, in your work with hundreds and hundreds of couples now, work that you enjoy, that seems to come naturally to you, when you meet with a couple and you think, \u201cOh, here are these indicators. I see these indicators. I think, this couple, they are on their way. They\u2019ve got it. I\u2019m going to put my money on them for the 50-year joyful growth run.\u201d What is it that you see? What behaviors? Or do you not see very many couples like that because they don\u2019t come to you?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>Oh, I do. I see them. All sorts of couples come to see me. And I would say the majority of couples that come into therapy are everyday couples who are struggling but really want to make their relationship work and they are willing to change. So some of the things I see are what I just said, a willingness to engage in the work, right? They have this willingness to take feedback, they have a willingness to change themselves in a way behaviorally, not at their core, but behaviorally. So that is something that I look for.<\/span><\/p>\n

I certainly look to see that couples are turning towards each other; I look to see how they\u2019re telling their story. Couples who come in, I always ask people, \u201cTell me your story. How did you meet? What have you overcome?\u201d All of that kind of stuff. And when they come in and they say, \u201cI don\u2019t really remember what I liked about them. I can\u2019t even remember how we met. Everything\u2019s been crap,\u201d I tend to be a little concerned because that often means that it\u2019s at a place where they have waited way too long to get help. It does not mean it can\u2019t turn around, but it\u2019s a little precarious at that point, because we know that the way people recount the past is more based in what\u2019s happening in the present in terms of the relationship, than what actually\u2014<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Oh, that\u2019s interesting. I didn\u2019t know that. So, if I tell the story of how I and my partner met and there\u2019s all this love and ooey-gooey, that\u2019s not necessarily because of what actually happened 20 some odd years ago, it\u2019s because of how I\u2019m feeling about the person today. Whereas if I tell it in a flippant, like, \u201cWho cares what?\u201d it\u2019s not really about the actual that happened 20-some-odd years ago\u2014<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>No, because our memories are always changing, and they\u2019re changing with information that we have. And so, when I meet with couples who are in high levels of distress, they will almost always, like 99.9% of them, will tell me how annoying the person was at the beginning and consider it. \u201cI should have seen flags. I should have seen\u2014\u201d all of these things. And I will really try to get in there, like, \u201cBut what was it that you thought was really lovely? What made you want to go on the first date?\u201d \u201cI don\u2019t even remember. I don\u2019t know what made me want to go on the first date.\u201d I know that they\u2019re in a pretty bad spot because even couples who are struggling that still have what call the positive perspective, even when they\u2019re struggling, they can tell me what they liked about the person. Once you can\u2019t tell me what you like about the person anymore, you\u2019ve gotten into what we call negative sentiment override, which means that anything good about them is being buried beneath your anger, your resentment, your characterization of who they are.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>OK. Now, one of the things you share right towards the beginning of, \u201cI want this to work,\u201d is this notion that there are three <\/span>R<\/span><\/i>\u2019s when it comes to cultivating a healthy relationship. You describe it as a relationship based in interdependence. So, let\u2019s start and define that idea of interdependence. And then what are these three <\/span>R<\/span><\/i>\u2019s and how did you get to them?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>Yes. Interdependence is the way that we are able to balance our desires for connection and our desires for autonomy. So all humans have an autonomous self that they want and all humans have a connective self that they want and we balance them differently, right? I might be someone who really leans into connection and my partner might be someone who, of course, loves our connection, but leans more into independence and autonomy. When we\u2019re in relationships that are imbalanced, we don\u2019t know how to navigate those together. So either we become hyper focused on the connection and we forget about autonomy and we lose ourselves. And so, I\u2019ll see couples and they\u2019ll be so focused on the connection, but I\u2019ll say, \u201cWell, what are your hobbies? What are your interests? Who are your friends?\u201d And they don\u2019t have that anymore because the connection has become everything, and that can be problematic.<\/span><\/p>\n

There are also times where the connection isn\u2019t there and autonomy has become everything. It\u2019s about my career, my friends, what I want to do. We\u2019re usually matched with the opposite, which, as you can imagine, can be hard to navigate. We have one person saying, \u201cAutonomy is the way. I don\u2019t need to be connected as much. Leave me be. I\u2019m focused on my other stuff.\u201d And we have the other person saying, \u201cTalk to me, cuddle me, be with me, take me on dates.\u201d Interdependent relationships are able to dance with both of those things. And so, what I work with, with couples a lot, is learning from each other. What does your partner have that maybe you struggle with and how can you lean into that a little bit? The second part of your question was what are the three <\/span>R<\/span><\/i>\u2019s?<\/span><\/p>\n

So those are Reliability, Respect, Responsiveness. And I came up with those by looking at what emotionally focused therapy tells us, what Gottman Method therapy tells us, relational life pact. There are all these methods of couple\u2019s therapy. When it comes down to it, they\u2019re essentially teaching couples to be respectful to each other, which means acting like their partner has inherent value to be reliable with each other, which means I know that if I reach for you, you\u2019re going to be there, you\u2019re committed to me, we\u2019ve got time to work this out, I can predict mostly who you are and to be responsive, which is turning towards, when I\u2019m having a hard time, you care, when I\u2019m having a good time, you care. And when those three things are happening, couples are able to create that interdependence with each other.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>OK. I noticed for whatever reason with the three <\/span>R<\/span><\/i>\u2019s, and this may just be me, they felt a little abstract to me. I was trying to make them really real in my experience\u2014<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>\u2014so I could remember them (and do them, God willing). So, help me with each one, make it very real in terms of behaviors, like, \u201cThese are the behaviors that demonstrate respect, Tami.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>Yes. So one of the things I talk about is it needs to go in all ways, right? So if you\u2019re in an interdependent relationship, you can respect yourself. So an example of that would be, let\u2019s say that you have a partner who\u2019s being in a way that is hurtful to you, you can respect yourself enough to say, \u201cI don\u2019t like this. I\u2019m not going to be late to my work meeting because of the fact that you did X, Y, and Z. I\u2019m going to respect myself here,\u201d respecting them would look like doing the same for them, right? Saying, \u201cI respect your time, I respect your needs, I respect your influence, I care about your opinions.\u201d So that\u2019s what respect looks like. Responsiveness, a very easy way to think about it is that turning away, turning towards, turning against stuff.<\/span><\/p>\n

If your partner comes in and says, \u201cGuess what? I just got a job promotion,\u201d are you the type of partner that\u2019s able to say, \u201cHoney, that\u2019s great. Tell me about it. What happened?\u201d Just as much as if they come home and say, \u201cI hate my boss,\u201d can you say, \u201cWhat happened?\u201d Instead of \u201cWell, I think your boss has a point there.\u201d But you also need to be able to respond to yourself. So if you\u2019re having a hard time, do you have space in your relationship to say, \u201cI need to deal with what\u2019s going on for me, I need to be able to talk it out, I need to be able to tend to myself.\u201d And then reliability is commitment.<\/span><\/p>\n

So the Gottman Institute talks about how important it is to have commitment, because if we don\u2019t think our partner is going to be there for us, if we\u2019re in a relationship where one day they\u2019re all in and the next day they don\u2019t text us back, where one week we\u2019re together and the next day they say, \u201cWe\u2019re going to get a divorce,\u201d then we can\u2019t trust enough to work on things together. But all of the methods talk about the same thing, right? If we\u2019re looking at what Esther Perel talks about out, which is that reliability and commitment allow us to have space to actually process through things, to not be afraid, to not have anxiety. So that\u2019s what all of those things play out like in a relationship.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>One of the things I read is that one of your areas of specialty is dealing with infidelity and betrayal. And I thought that was interesting because it seems to me once again, like that would be really hard, I would think. And I\u2019m curious how you help couples once there\u2019s been this breakdown of reliability? How do you help people trust again?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>Yes, it\u2019s hard because the contract has been broken. When there\u2019s infidelity, the contract was, \u201cWe\u2019re not going to step outside of the relationship in that way.\u201d After a contract is broken, then trust is very much changed. And so, you have to be really gentle with it. But we go through three phases when I work with people. The first is that we own up to the fact that we broke the contract and the person who broke it has to atone. So they work on offering remorse, they work on explaining what they learned from the situation, answering questions and listening, really taking time to hear the impact. That\u2019s the hardest part. People in that situation, there\u2019s a lot of shame, it\u2019s painful, and they\u2019ll often say, \u201cHow many more times do I have to hear this story?\u201d And I sit with them and I say, \u201cLook, I know it\u2019s exhausting but you have to keep hearing it for a while because it needs to come out and it needs to receive responsiveness. The story needs to be responded to again and again and again, so that your partner can feel safe.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

So that\u2019s the first stage. After that happens, once that partner who has been betrayed feels like their questions have been mostly answered, they\u2019ve been able to share the story\u2014I talk to them a lot about you can\u2019t move the goal post, we have to get to good enough here so that we can move to the next stage\u2014we move to attunement. And that\u2019s where they both get to talk about what was happening before the affair, what was going on in the relationship that might have allowed that to have space. Was there not enough turning towards? Was there a stressful moment that you didn\u2019t know how to navigate together? Were you feeling in some way neglected? And so they talk together about what was going on. Finally, in the last stage, they get to the point where they\u2019re able to say, \u201cOK, let\u2019s recontract again. Here are the things that we\u2019re going to do to rebuild this relationship in a new way\u201d; and we call that stage \u201cattachment.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>OK. Just to ask you a mathematical question, I\u2019m just curious. The couples you work with where there\u2019s betrayal and infidelity, would you say\u2014what percentage? Fifty percent\u2014more than fifty percent?\u2014are able to get to attachment and moving forward together or less than that?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>I would say more than fifty percent. Yes. Maybe like sixty percent or so. A good number of people who come in after infidelity, they do remain in their relationship. The times where that does not happen is when the other person continues to lie. So, people can almost always find a way to trust and recommit again if there\u2019s just complete transparency and honesty. And sadly though, a lot of people will come in and they\u2019ll say that they\u2019re being transparent, and then two weeks later, and it breaks my heart, the partner comes in and says, \u201cI found another email. I\u2019ve asked you 80 times are there any other emails\u2014you said, no. I found another email.\u201d In those cases, it tends to be really challenging to move forward and people do end up breaking up.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>[Yes.] Now, Liz, I wanted to ask you a question about <\/span>I Want This to Work<\/span><\/i>, your new book, which is, I got the impression that\u2014and this is based on a quote from the back cover of the book where it says, between 2008 and 2016 the divorce rate plummeted 18 percent. So, I got the impression\u2014<\/span>I Want This to Work<\/span><\/i>\u2014that perhaps people who are getting married, maybe people in their twenties and thirties, people who are getting married in the last couple of decades have more of an investment in having their relationships work and learning these skills, etc., than previously, in other times. Is that true? Is that part of what you\u2019re seeing?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>Yes. And that\u2019s where the title came from, is I see so many people come in and say like, \u201cWe\u2019re really invested in making this work.\u201d And both people coming in saying that it\u2019s not that kind of old example of a couple where somebody\u2019s pulling the other person in. I have people where they\u2019re both coming in and they\u2019re saying, \u201cWe really want this to work.\u201d And I would love to hear if you have thoughts as well and theories, I think some of that comes from\u2014so many of the people I work with grew up in families of divorce.<\/span><\/p>\n

And so we have a lot of people in the millennial generation whose parents split up, and they\u2019re very invested in trying to do it differently, which ends up being a huge motivator for them: \u201cI don\u2019t want to get divorced. I watched my parents argue, I watched them turn away from each other, I watched them not respect each other and accept influence, and I really want that to be different here.\u201d And that seems to be something that is really pulling people towards maintaining their relationships. Also, people are getting married later. So, they are being very choosy with what they\u2019re doing, and once they choose, they\u2019re really invested in making sure that it works. I think that those are a couple of the reasons that that\u2019s happening.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Right. It makes sense, and I notice in hearing you describe that, I feel happy about that. I\u2019m like\u2014that\u2019s so wonderful. It\u2019s so wonderful that millennials feel that type of eagerness to invest, willingness to invest in. And this is something else you posit towards the beginning of the book, that, really what it is, it\u2019s about learning skills.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>And I think, in a way, it\u2019s a very simple idea, \u201cOh, there are these skills you need to learn.\u201d But it puts relationships in a different category because, I think, often we think it has to be some type of soulmate chemistry or angels have to sprinkle dust on us. Not like\u2014it\u2019s skills, the same kind of skills it would take to be successful at something else in the world. I wonder if you can speak some about that. Is it just like learning other kinds of skills, but yet now they\u2019re interpersonal?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>Yes. I mean, I think it\u2019s a muscle, right? And we learn our relationship skills through observation. We watch how other people relate and we take it as our own and we don\u2019t even know it. It\u2019s not even conscious. But when we can start to consciously learn, \u201cOh, there\u2019s a new way I could say this. And when I say it that way, it really changes the interaction,\u201d or, \u201cMaybe there\u2019s something I\u2019m doing here that\u2019s making it hard for me to get close to this person, and here\u2019s a few things that I could do that would really change that then we can become empowered.\u201d And it\u2019s like anything else. When I take a yoga class, I am always out of alignment because I don\u2019t know how to hold my body the right way. And when the instructor comes over and it\u2019s helpful to me and moves me to a way that I\u2019ll feel more comfortable in an alignment, all of a sudden, I\u2019m like, \u201cOh, that\u2019s how it could feel. Now I know how to do it,\u201d and then I can hold myself differently. And it\u2019s the same with relationship skills.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now, here you are. You\u2019re in your mid-30s. And this got my attention when I first picked up the book <\/span>I Want This to Work<\/span><\/i>. \u201cWho is this Elizabeth Earnshaw? OK. I\u2019m going to learn more about her. She looks really young. Here I am. I\u2019ve been at this a long time. I still have a lot of skills I need to learn. Can she really help me? She\u2019s so young, she\u2019s in her mid-thirties.\u201d How do you address that when couples come to you who are older than you and look at you and go, \u201cReally?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>Yes. It\u2019s a good question and it is one that comes up a lot. The first move is always to be curious about that. We always talk about it. As a therapist, that\u2019s my go-to, is \u201cWhat\u2019s your fear? I\u2019m younger, and so tell me about what comes up for you.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: \u201c<\/b>You don\u2019t have enough experience.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: \u201c<\/b>How good are you really at your relationship? How long have you even been doing it?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: \u201c<\/b>I got married before you were even born.\u201d I mean, whatever. Something like that.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>Yes. people could be my parents, all sorts of things. Everyone gives different answers. Some people say, \u201cI don\u2019t think you know enough,\u201d some people say, \u201cYou\u2019re the age of my daughter,\u201d some people say, \u201cYes, you weren\u2019t even alive when we got married,\u201d and we explore that. But one thing I share with them is that I have worked with couples for over a decade and I\u2019ve worked with hundreds of them of all ages, and that what I\u2019ve seen is that the issues they present are consistent; and that I know the research, I know the skills that will help them, and I think that I can direct them and contain the situation enough to really help them move forward.<\/span><\/p>\n

I also open up the allowance. They\u2019re allowed to be concerned about that. And I say to them, \u201cIf at any point you feel like I\u2019m not getting it because I\u2019m too young, if at any point there\u2019s some transference where you\u2019re thinking, \u2018This is like my daughter talking to us. Do I really have to listen to her?\u2019 I hope that we can have a relationship where you can bring that up.\u201d I use a lot of relational work with the people that I\u2019m working with in their relationships.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>OK. Let me ask you a personal question, another one.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>I love it.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Of all of the relationship skills you teach, which have been the hardest for you to really embody well in your own intimate relationship?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>I am a critical person. For me, I have had to learn how to express myself without being critical when I\u2019m frustrated. I\u2019m not naturally a critical person, but when I\u2019m frustrated, that is my go-to. I get flooded. I get mean sometimes. And so, even though I know that criticism just kicks off this really unhealthy dynamic in a conversation, I use it sometimes. And my husband pairs well with me and he becomes defensive. Something that we are continually working on together is helping each other to learn to do it a little bit differently and to feel safe enough to do it a little bit differently. But yeah, my growing edge is that I\u2019m working on the criticism.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>And what do you do when you have the criticism come up? What\u2019s your shift?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>Yes. If I notice it in the moment\u2014because sometimes I don\u2019t\u2014I own it immediately. I love to narrate what\u2019s happening in my head. I\u2019ll say things like, \u201cOh my gosh, I can tell I\u2019m being ridiculous right now.\u201d And I start narrating how I\u2019m feeling instead. So I\u2019ll say something like, \u201cI\u2019m just really enraged, and I don\u2019t know what else to say, and I need to walk away right now.\u201d I\u2019ll stop it. I\u2019ll narrate what\u2019s happening for me instead of narrating what I think about him or what I think about the other person.<\/span><\/p>\n

Once I get there, I\u2019m a human. I don\u2019t want to seem like I\u2019m this god of relationships. Once I get there, I do apologize. And I think that that repair is so important. It\u2019s almost, even if you can\u2019t get rid of that unhealthy habit, if you can catch yourself and repair, it does so much for the security in the relationship. And so I apologize; I try it again. I ask for permission to get another chance to have the conversation, but it\u2019s something I\u2019m always working on.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now, that\u2019s a very good tip to ask for a permission to do a do over kind of thing. That seems really important.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>Yes. And asking for permission around anything difficult makes that conversation go so much better. The other person already feeling like they\u2019re being considered is pretty powerful. So, saying, \u201cHoney, would it be okay if we tried that again?\u201d Or, \u201cAre you open to us talking about X, Y, and Z?\u201d That disarms a person very powerfully.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>[Yes.] Now, you\u2019ve founded a new company, it\u2019s called Actually, a premarital wellness company. Tell me a little bit about that\u2014premarital.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>Yes. So I\u2019ve co-founded Actually with a couple other people and we are trying to make relational wellness mainstream. And so, we feel like starting prior to the relationship. So we know that people wait an average of six years to get help when they\u2019re having a problem, but we want to make it feel normal to\u2014not have problems\u2014but to learn the skills that I talk about in the book. So you don\u2019t have to wait until you\u2019re in a fight to learn how to fight better. I would love for people to be learning that way in advance. So we\u2019re starting with premarital, but we\u2019re going to continually add on other programs for people to do proactive work around their relationship.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>There\u2019s a quote on the Actually website, \u201cIn this famous Harvard study, the people who were the most satisfied in their relationships at age 50 were the healthiest at age 80.\u201d And I wonder if you can share a little bit more, this excited me, the connection between our physical health and a happy marriage.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>Yes. So the Harvard study found that people who are in happy relationships have better physical health, everything from heart health to risk of stroke, to risk of different types of cancer. All of those things are reduced. Those risks are reduced when we feel happy and safe in our relationships. And it makes sense. We\u2019re animals that are meant to be in community with other animals, and when we are in safe relationships, our bodies are co-regulated. We can manage our stress differently because we feel like we can fall and somebody\u2019s going to catch us. Life isn\u2019t always scary. We don\u2019t always have to have chaos and crisis and conflict. So in those safe relationships and because of the fact that they make you feel secure, you\u2019re going to be taking really good care of your heart, you\u2019re going to be taking really good care of all of those stress chemicals that get pumped through your body, and you\u2019re going to feel happier and motivated to move, and to live, and to do all of those things that really matter.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>OK. There\u2019s one more section of your new book <\/span>I Want This to Work<\/span><\/i> that I\u2019d love to talk to you about. And it\u2019s a section that\u2019s called \u201cTaking a Team Approach.\u201d And I thought this was just important. Once again, it landed with me that when you as a couple have made a decision, for example, in favor of your partner\u2019s preference, use the word \u201cwe\u201d when you\u2019re talking to outsiders. This is one example of taking a team approach. And I thought about that because I could think of all these different examples where my partner and I had talked about something. We had a different viewpoint, and when I shared it with other people, I definitely did not say, \u201cWe\u2019ve decided this.\u201d I said, \u201cLook, because of my partner\u2019s blah, blah, blah thing, we\u2019re going to have to do it that way.\u201d And I wonder if you can share more, what does it mean really to take a \u201cwe\u201d approach? What are some good examples of when it\u2019s important to do it?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>That was a good example [\u2026].<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I know! I saw it in myself. I saw it. I thought that I don\u2019t do it. I throw them under the bus a little bit saying, \u201cBecause of this person\u2019s special needs, we\u2019re doing it this way.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>Yes. And that is so common. You\u2019re not alone with that. But what tends to happen is then the other person feels frustrated for being thrown under the bus and we\u2019re going to do it sometimes, right? All of these things are things you don\u2019t want to do chronically. So just a reminder, you do not have to be perfect. But when you take that team approach, you are then showing the outside world that you are a united front and you\u2019re creating that attachment security within your relationship. When you start putting the other person, \u201cOh, the reason we\u2019re not coming to Thanksgiving this year, mom, is because Andrew doesn\u2019t really like the turkey that you make.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

When we start doing that, what starts to happen is we triangulate. And what triangulating means is that there\u2019s three people in a situation, but there\u2019s a weird mismanagement of energy there, where somebody might feel in conflict. My mom might then feel like, \u201cOh, well, why didn\u2019t Andrew tell me this?\u201d Or, \u201cWhy doesn\u2019t he want my turkey?\u201d And then Andrew and my mom are in\u2014Andrew\u2019s my husband, by the way\u2014conflict. Instead of it just being, \u201cYou know what? We\u2019ve decided that. In our little couple bubble, we have decided that this year we\u2019re doing Thanksgiving in this way,\u201d and it really creates a lot of safety and protection.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>OK. And then here\u2019s another one in this section on having each other\u2019s back in relationship. When your partner\u2019s talking… I just keep outing myself. I have a confessional convention. That\u2019s what it is. It\u2019s… I don\u2019t know. When your partner is talking about something or telling a story, don\u2019t interrupt or correct them. And I thought, \u201cWow, don\u2019t correct them? But what if it\u2019s time to do a fact check here?\u201d But no, and I can also see how it\u2019s more respectful not to correct them, but yeah, it\u2019s like, \u201cOK, just let it slide. Really?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>It kills you, right? So respect, going back to those three <\/span>R<\/span><\/i>\u2019s, you don\u2019t have to let things slide, right? But is there a way to address it when your partner isn\u2019t going to be embarrassed, shut down in the moment? So if your partner is telling a story… And I can think of times I\u2019ve done this, where we\u2019ve been out and my husband\u2019s telling a story about something we did and I\u2019m like, \u201cDon\u2019t over exaggerate. That\u2019s not what happened.\u201d And then I\u2019ve taken the wind out of his sails because he\u2019s entertaining people with his story, or this is his memory, or whatever, and then everybody else around us is like, \u201cWhy isn\u2019t Liz on Andrew\u2019s [team]? What\u2019s happening between Liz and Andrew? That\u2019s awkward. What are we supposed to do here?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Most of the time you don\u2019t have to fix it, because what\u2019s the matter? But if it\u2019s really not factual, later on, in private, you could say, \u201cHoney, what was that story earlier? You were telling people that we won $1000 at the slots last week, we did not win $1000. Why did you say that?\u201d And you can work it out together as your united front. But you just want to be cautious about making your partner feel embarrassed in front of other people.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Yes. No, I thought this was a good insight. In the same section on making sure you have each other\u2019s back in relationship, you write about not allowing other people to be disrespectful of your partner. And I wonder what you would suggest if somebody said, \u201cGod, blah, blah, blah,\u201d about Andrew, \u201cHe can really be difficult. Come on, how do you deal with it?\u201d Something like that. What would you say in that kind of situation? Especially the person might even be saying something that seems right.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>Yes, I know.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Yes. Kind of. But you\u2019re right. What do you say?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>I think, obviously again, I like real human talk. I\u2019m not going to tell you that you have to be fluffy and be like, \u201cOh, thank you for sharing your insight with me.\u201d But I think that you can sidestep it. If it feels real to you, you might say something like, \u201cI can hear where you\u2019re coming from. And honestly, I don\u2019t want to talk about Andrew right now.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

The other thing that\u2014and this is for all relationships: people triangulate each other, which means that they have anxiety with another person, and they don\u2019t want to deal it directly, so they put it into somebody else. So, if my friend comes to me\u2014they\u2019re annoyed with Andrew. Their anxiety is with him, but they\u2019re putting it into me and they\u2019re hoping that I\u2019m going to relieve that for them by agreeing with them, or fixing Andrew for them, or whatever. That\u2019s not a healthy dynamic for any of us to be in. So being able to step out of triangulation might sound like saying something like, \u201cI can hear you on all of that and I really think you should talk to Andrew. I don\u2019t know what I can do with this for you, but I think that if you contacted him, it might be a better conversation.\u201d You can direct it back, but you don\u2019t want to go into it and disrespect your partner behind their back.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>[Yes.] All right, Liz. So, you put a lot of time, energy intelligence, research studies and a whole lot of practices. I would say this book is a very readable and applicable toolbox, <\/span>I Want This to Work: An Inclusive Guide to Navigating the Most Difficult Relationship Issues We Face in the Modern Age<\/span><\/i>. What\u2019s your hope as people pick up this book and read it and think, \u201c[Yes.]\u201d\u2014what\u2019s your hope for the reader?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>Yes. I hope that for readers who are saying, \u201cI really want this relationship to work,\u201d maybe especially readers who aren\u2019t sure how to go to therapy, don\u2019t have access to it, don\u2019t have a partner who\u2019s interested in it, that they can open it up, and even if they don\u2019t read it cover to cover that they can find little nuggets of things that they can just gently approach in their lives and start to use in their relationships so that they personally feel more empowered in trying to make their relationship work. Yes, so my biggest hope is just that it gives them something that they can do especially when they\u2019re feeling overwhelmed, maybe hopeless, not sure what to do, they have some containment, they have some direction.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Interesting. You said even if your partner might not be interested in doing the work, you could still pick up this book and start and get right into it. And one of the sentences you put in the book is, \u201cBe the change you want to see in your relationship.\u201d And I thought that was very powerful, that we could start embodying the change, just ourselves, even if our partner\u2019s not reading every chapter with us and doing the exercises with us. Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>Yes. It\u2019s true. Once you start doing it, things will change. We don\u2019t know which direction, but they will change in some direction.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I\u2019ve been talking with Elizabeth Earnshaw. She\u2019s the author of the new book <\/span>I Want This to Work: An Inclusive Guide to Navigating the Most Difficult Relationship Issues We Face in the Modern Age<\/span><\/i>. What a wise and humble young person you are, Liz.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

EE: <\/b>Thank you. Thank you so much for having me here today. It was so nice to talk to you.<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Same. Thank you for listening to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>. You can read a full transcript of today\u2019s interview at SoundsTrue.com\/podcast. And if you\u2019re interested, hit the Subscribe button in your podcast app, and also if you feel inspired head to iTunes and leave <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i> review. I love getting your feedback, being in connection with you, and learning how we can continue to evolve and improve our program. Working together, I believe we can create a kinder and wiser world. SoundsTrue.com: waking up the world.<\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"template":"","meta":{"_expiration-date-status":"","_expiration-date":0,"_expiration-date-type":"","_expiration-date-categories":[],"_expiration-date-options":[]},"class_list":["post-9646","transcript","type-transcript","status-publish","hentry"],"yoast_head":"\nWhat You Can Do To Make Your Relationship Work - Transcript<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with What You Can Do To Make Your Relationship Work. 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