{"id":9656,"date":"2021-12-20T10:57:46","date_gmt":"2021-12-20T17:57:46","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?post_type=transcript&p=9656"},"modified":"2021-12-20T10:57:46","modified_gmt":"2021-12-20T17:57:46","slug":"open-to-open-monogamy","status":"publish","type":"transcript","link":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/open-to-open-monogamy\/","title":{"rendered":"Open to Open Monogamy"},"content":{"rendered":"
\"image_print\"Print Transcript<\/span><\/a><\/div>

Tami Simon:<\/b> Welcome to <\/span>Insights at the Edge <\/span><\/i>produced by Sounds True. My name is Tami Simon, I\u2019m the founder of Sounds True, and I\u2019d love to take a moment to introduce you to the new Sounds True Foundation. The Sounds True Foundation is dedicated to creating a wiser and kinder world by making transformational education widely available. We want everyone to have access to transformational tools such as mindfulness, emotional awareness, and self-compassion regardless of financial, social, or physical challenges. The Sounds True Foundation is a nonprofit dedicated to providing these transformational tools to communities in need, including at-risk youth, prisoners, veterans, and those in developing countries. If you\u2019d like to learn more or feel inspired to become a supporter, please visit SoundsTrueFoundation.org.<\/span><\/p>\n

You\u2019re listening to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>. Today, my guest is Dr. Tammy Nelson. Tammy is a licensed psychotherapist, board certified sexologist, certified sex therapist, and a certified Imago relationship therapist. She\u2019s the host of <\/span>The Trouble with Sex<\/span><\/i> podcast and her books include <\/span>Getting the Sex You Want<\/span><\/i> and a new book with Sounds True called <\/span>Open Monogamy: A Guide to Co-Creating Your Ideal Relationship Agreement<\/span><\/i>. Truth be told, when I saw it come up on the schedule that I was going to be interviewing Dr. Tammy Nelson, the author of <\/span>Open Monogamy<\/span><\/i>, I thought, OK, this is an opportunity for me to look at something that I have judgment about, biases about. Can I be open to open monogamy? And the answer is yes. Tammy Nelson is so balanced and nonjudgmental, and she helps us open to open monogamy. Take a listen.<\/span><\/p>\n

To begin with, Tammy, as a way to bring you forward for our listeners, here you are, a relationship expert and a sex therapist. How did you come to focus on open monogamy as the topic that you would write a book about, that would become an educational platform for you? Why open monogamy?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Tammy Nelson: <\/b>Well, I\u2019ve worked for so long with couples who have been struggling with how to find their true north. What is the shared value that they want to come back to or come home to and over and over again. I think it\u2019s honesty, it\u2019s transparency, and how honest people want to be. Ultimately, I\u2019ve found over the years that people don\u2019t want to break up. They don\u2019t want to get divorced, they don\u2019t want to hurt each other\u2019s feelings. And when it comes right down to it, people really want to live in integrity\u2014in integrity with who they are and what they want, and they want to do that with another person.<\/span><\/p>\n

And I really feel like the definition of monogamy has changed so much over the past 30 years and that people want to stay with a primary or central partner, but they want some flexibility and some fluidity, and they don\u2019t want to hurt each other.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>OK. So when you say that the definition of monogamy has changed, help me understand how you use that word and how you define open monogamy.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN:<\/b> Well, open monogamy means that you have a primary or central relationship or a spouse or someone you\u2019re committed to, and that is your true north. That\u2019s your priority, but that monogamy isn\u2019t necessarily like your grandparent\u2019s monogamy was. It\u2019s not so cut and dried that it just means you\u2019re never going to sleep with anyone else until you die. It may mean that you\u2019re going to open your monogamy agreement to include a conversation about, I don\u2019t know, looking at pornography together.<\/span><\/p>\n

I don\u2019t think anyone ever talked about that 30 years ago. I promised to love and honor you and tell you every time I look at porn. We have a totally different conversation now about what sexual fidelity looks like. Or do we talk about our fantasies together? Do we share our curiosity together? I think people are honoring a new level of honesty about what their sexual connection looks like.<\/span><\/p>\n

And frankly, I think we\u2019re staying together longer and wanting to stay sexual for longer. So people are looking at monogamy maybe as a way to find variety and adventure, but still stay together\u2014not have to break up to find it with someone else and trade their partner in for a new one, which is a new way to look at it I think.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now in writing the book <\/span>Open Monogamy<\/span><\/i>, you did a lot of research and you interviewed a lot of people. Tell us a little bit about that, both the research and the interviews that you did.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>Yes, I talked to a lot of different people in different forms of open relationships and asked them how that worked and how they did it and what didn\u2019t work and what were the risks for them. And some people really can manage, I think, a certain level of separateness and individuality. And some people need to know exactly what\u2019s going on with their partner all the time. I think part of it is a personality issue, and some people can tolerate a level of disclosure that other people can\u2019t. Some people like a don\u2019t-ask-don\u2019t-tell relationship.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

I think the commonality was the real caring for each other that all the couples seemed to have. There was no inkling at all of resentment or anger. Everyone seemed to really express their relationship as a way of expanding their caring for each other. I found that it was this new level of commitment, that they really saw each other as individuals, that they didn\u2019t own each other\u2019s sexuality or relationship, and they found this joy in each other\u2019s happiness. It\u2019s an interesting way to look at relationships.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>How did you find these interview subjects?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>Well, some of them were clients that I\u2019d seen in my own therapy as couples who volunteered to answer some questions. And some of them were as part of a sex-positive community. They gave me a name of someone else who gave me the name of someone else who gave me the name of someone else. And it\u2019s amazing the number of people that are actually doing this now. I think it\u2019s been going on forever. <\/span>Open Marriage <\/span><\/i>was a book that came out in the \u201870s and we know that people were swinging in the \u201860s, but there\u2019s a different attitude now about open monogamy.<\/span><\/p>\n

Open marriage back then was more a dedication to having an equal relationship; it was heterosexual, hetero-focused, and a desire to have more gender roles that were more equal. Can you please help with the kids? And can you please change the diapers? And can everybody be a little bit more equal and maybe a recognition that women wanted sexual pleasure too, which was not so evenly balanced back then.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Now, I think women are the gatekeepers of open monogamy. It doesn\u2019t really happen unless women are the ones that say, \u201cOK, let\u2019s do it.\u201d And I think that has a lot to do with how we\u2019ve changed around women\u2019s sexuality, women expecting to have good sex, owning their own sexuality, owning the fact that they want to have orgasms and good sex. And that\u2019s been a big shift over the past couple decades.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>So it sounds to me, in your description of open monogamy, honesty is critical, not negotiable. And if I\u2019m understanding you correctly, having a primary partner is also part of your definition. And then in the book, you go further to describe a continuum. Can you share a little bit what that continuum is of people who identify as being openly monogamous?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>Yes, so there\u2019s a continuum of monogamy from, if you imagine, on the left side of the continuum, people having a conversation about, is it OK to have fantasies about something else, something or someone else, or to flirt with other people? For some people having a fantasy is a slippery slope. And if you\u2019re attracted to someone else or you feel like, oh, I\u2019ve been thinking about this other person, I should probably come home and tell you because it\u2019s a craving-my-neighbor experience. And that might be dangerous to our relationship, so we should share that openly.<\/span><\/p>\n

Other people feel like, God, if I had to tell you every time I was hot for someone I saw in the grocery store, we\u2019d be talking all the time. But those things are explicitly talked about. Sometimes we have this implicit assumption that, oh, we should never share that. Or, of course, you\u2019re going to tell me if that happens, but we don\u2019t necessarily talk about that.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

As part of that monogamy continuum, now that becomes an explicit thing that we agree or agree not to talk about. And people feel differently about that in a relationship, and that can change over time too. Maybe we don\u2019t talk about it now, but at a different phase of our relationship, that becomes more important.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

And then, as you go up the monogamy continuum, is it OK to have a deeply connected emotional relationship? Is it OK to have a \u201cwork spouse,\u201d for instance? Someone you\u2019re deeply connected to at your job that you spend all your time and energy sharing things with, but you have no energy left for me when you get home\u2014is that something that we should talk about? Is that a risk? Is that an emotional affair? What constitutes an emotional affair and is that a breach to our monogamy? Is that something we need to talk about?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

And then, if you do want to open your monogamy even further, is it OK to have sexual experiences together? Can we go to some sex party and just walk around and look at other people who are intriguing? Or even looking at pornography together, is that something you want to share? Or we start to negotiate the difference between privacy and secrecy. Is masturbation private or should we share it with each other? Does it feel like a betrayal if we catch each other? The level of transparency along the continuum is the thing that we would begin to process together, and then if you just\u2014<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Let\u2019s keep going, yes, let\u2019s keep going. Let\u2019s go all the way down the continuum.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>Yes, we\u2019re going. We\u2019re going to go all the way. And then if you decide, OK, well, it\u2019s OK to have sexual experiences where you\u2019re together, but sharing\u2014what if you\u2019re having sex actually physically together? Like if you have a threesome or more-some? But only if you\u2019re in the same room. It\u2019s not officially swinging, where you\u2019d go off in one room and I go off in another.<\/span><\/p>\n

I don\u2019t know if you remember key parties from way back where people would drop their keys in a bowl, and at the end of the night, you would pick up the keys and whoever\u2019s keys you got, you\u2019d go home with them. It\u2019s like a totally separate sexual experience with someone else where your partner wasn\u2019t there. Maybe you agree that that\u2019s OK. Maybe you agree that you can have sex with other people on vacation.<\/span><\/p>\n

Maybe you agree to have a don\u2019t-ask-don\u2019t-tell relationship where you can do it, but I don\u2019t want to know about it. Or maybe you have a relationship with other people, but you really want to know all the precursors, all the negotiations, so that you can bring that energy home.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

A lot of the couples I talked to found that they did have jealousy\u2014jealousy seems like a normal human emotion, but they almost eroticized it. It was kind of hot to think about their partner with someone else, as long as they could bring it home and talk about it.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

And then all the way at the other far end of the monogamy continuum is polyamory, which is \u201cpoly\u201d means many and \u201camory\u201d means love, and it\u2019s people that can integrate romantic, emotional sexual relationships into their current relationships, so that you could have multiple partners like a village.<\/span><\/p>\n

You can outsource different needs in your marriage or in your committed partnership, and some people can do that quite well, and it\u2019s really helpful to have multiple partners in your relationship. And I think people who can process a lot of feelings and communicate do it quite well. Other people try it and maybe they move backwards on the monogamy continuum because it doesn\u2019t work. But you could go back and forth on there.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Do you find that people are just built differently? Like you talk to some people\u2014some people come into your therapy practice and they\u2019re a different kind of person than the person who would find themselves all the way to that far end of the polyamory part of open monogamy, and other people are built for polyamory? Or do you think that that\u2019s just more like we\u2019ve been enculturated into these ideas by our society. It\u2019s not really how we\u2019re natively built as people. How do you see it?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>It\u2019s so complex, people ask me this all the time. Are we born monogamous or am I meant to be polyamorous? And I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s an evolutionary thing or I don\u2019t know if we\u2019re born monogamous or non-monogamous. I don\u2019t think we\u2019re born knowing how to eat with a fork either. I think we learn, I think monogamy is a choice just like non-monogamy, and I think you can make that choice every day.<\/span><\/p>\n

We have a prefrontal cortex, we can pick, we can choose, and we could practice. And some days are much harder than others whether you\u2019re monogamous or non-monogamous. It\u2019s really a choice and it\u2019s really a practice and all those things are complex and difficult. I think some people really do well in complex multi-relationships. It\u2019s like if you grow up with a bunch of siblings and you just really like to have a bunch of people around you and you do really well in groups where everyone can support you and you can share really well, you play well with others.<\/span><\/p>\n

Some people can\u2019t. Some people don\u2019t like to share, they don\u2019t play well with others, they get really jealous. They\u2019re more introverted. They can\u2019t imagine staying home and waiting for their partner to come home from a date. That just totally freaks them out. And other people are like, no, it\u2019s fine. Go. I want a night off.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>So this whole question that I\u2019m sure you\u2019ve been asked a lot, where people are like, well, let\u2019s talk about the human animal. And some people will make an argument, look at nature, look how many species are not monogamous. And then people say, yes, but look at these species. They are. What do you think about that when people try to look at this question from an evolutionary biology standpoint?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>Well, we used to always think that there were certain animals, like geese, that mated for life. And if you\u2019re a goose person, I think you should turn off this podcast right now because I\u2019m going to tell you very depressing news that geese, although they do mate for life\u2014that female geese are very promiscuous. They\u2019ve found now, with DNA testing, that they can look at the eggs under the female goose and find that they will mate with several different geese to ensure the propagation of their eggs. So they may have emotional mates for life, but not necessarily sexual mates for life.<\/span><\/p>\n

So they might have sex with a lot of different partners to make sure they get enough eggs to perpetuate the baby eggs. But you can have emotional mates and emotional partners forever. And I think that\u2019s pretty common for many, many humans. We\u2019ve seen this in gay men forever and, not to generalize that all gay men are like this, but many gay men can have emotional monogamy and sexual flexibility. And now, for heterosexual couples that are struggling with it, it\u2019s, many times, that conversation of: Can we be emotionally monogamous and have some sexual fluidity in our lives? What is that like to be connected and yet sexually open? Is that a possibility?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now Tammy, there\u2019s a lot to talk about here, and we\u2019re going to get into it, but I want to take a moment to share with you that before I started reading <\/span>Open Monogamy<\/span><\/i>, I thought to myself, God, I\u2019ve seen so many couples open their relationships. It\u2019s the end of their marriage. It\u2019s the beginning of the end. They\u2019re just doing it because their marriage isn\u2019t really working.<\/span><\/p>\n

So I had a lot of judgements. I had a lot of judgements and I thought to myself, am I even really the right person to be interviewing Tammy Nelson about <\/span>Open Monogamy<\/span><\/i> for Sounds True? I have many judgements about this from the perspective of someone who\u2019s been married for 20 years in a closed, monogamous relationship and probably couldn\u2019t function in a different type of format successfully based on my character formation, personality, temperament, fear, I don\u2019t know what\u2014we\u2019ll get into it. Who knows? But based on who I am, I couldn\u2019t function any differently than the way I\u2019m functioning. I know that about myself.<\/span><\/p>\n

But then I read this sentence in the opening chapter of <\/span>Open Monogamy<\/span><\/i>, and what you wrote is, \u201cAll consensual agreements between consenting adults should be normalized.\u201d And there was a way that your book <\/span>Open Monogamy<\/span><\/i> really helped me drop all judgment. And I\u2019m curious, from your perspective, how you got to this place where you\u2019re not making a judgment about what two consenting adults decide to do. So I\u2019d like to hear more about that from your perspective.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>Yes, my goal is really to help people to communicate and make explicit what they want. There are so many non-consensual, non-monogamous relationships\u2014people have been cheating since the beginning of time. Right? They\u2019ve been non-consensual without permission and hiding and lying and cheating, and a lot of the pain and misery in relationships comes from the dishonesty. And my theory is that the more people can communicate and be explicit about what they want, the more connected they feel.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Now that doesn\u2019t mean they\u2019re always going to agree on what they want, but it\u2019s the communicating about the potential and the possibilities. A lot of people will communicate about the potential possibilities and never even act out on them, but feel closer just from talking about what their fantasy is or what they\u2019ve thought about as the possibility.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Once the permission has been granted\u2014\u201cYes, if that\u2019s what you want, I\u2019m open to it.\u201d\u2014then they feel like they never have to do it. It\u2019s like the gates have been opened and they feel respected and honored in who they are as an individual, and that open-door policy makes them feel loved. And I think I have a lot of my own feelings about it, to be honest.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Well, I want to hear about that. I want to hear about that. I want to hear about you personally, because I\u2019ve come forward here and talked about my 20-year lesbian white-picket-fence existence basically.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>Yes, I get triggered by a lot of the couples that I see that are trying to make their relationship open because they\u2019re really trying to continue their affairs. They\u2019re just trying to make it work to justify some hidden behavior or they\u2019re trying to manipulate their partner into opening it because they really just want to get away with what they want. What I see a lot is this second adolescence.<\/span><\/p>\n

So suddenly you\u2019re in middle age and the kids grow up and you\u2019re like, \u201cI just want to do whatever I want. Don\u2019t tell me what to do. I\u2019m going to come home when I want, and stop trying to control me.\u201d And they\u2019re texting under the kitchen table and they\u2019re parentifying their partner who\u2019s saying, \u201cI don\u2019t know what you\u2019re doing. I\u2019m not telling you what to do. I just want to know when you\u2019re coming home.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

This interesting parentified adolescent thing that happens that really\u2014people are trying to redo their adolescence. And I think that\u2019s because we live so long now that we have time for a second adolescence; we try to do it over again.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now I want to hear more about you personally and where you are on the open monogamy continuum. But before we get there\u2014that\u2019s a cliff-hanger here. How does somebody know in their own relationship whether or not they\u2019re having a second adolescence or whether or not they finally have the courage to come forward and talk to their partner? The time is finally right for this. How do we sort that out in our own inner life?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>I think the more adult you feel in your relationship is determined by the level of cooperation. If you\u2019re feeling like you have to sneak around behind your partner\u2019s back and you have to ask permission\u2014this is not about setting the rules for you and your partner. Rules implies that they\u2019re going to be broken or followed. And so it\u2019s not about setting the rules. It\u2019s more about setting boundaries for yourself and what I call \u201cred lines.\u201d\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

So red lines are like, \u201cThis is not going to be acceptable for me. I can\u2019t deal with it if you\u2019re going to go have sex with someone without protection.\u201d Or, \u201cI can\u2019t deal with it if you want to have a relationship with someone from your job\u201d or \u201cI can\u2019t handle it if our kids find out.\u201d Those are the red lines for me that can\u2019t be crossed, as examples.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cBoundaries are the things that are important to me, but I could be flexible about them. I can imagine that these are the things that we might want to talk about, but I\u2019m a white-picket-fence monogamous person. But I can imagine that if you wanted to go to a sex party and walk around that I might be able to go with you, because I\u2019m just so curious about what the hell a sex party is, and I might want to go and just look as long as we don\u2019t talk to anybody.\u201d That\u2019s a boundary and a curiosity. And that\u2019s different than, \u201cI\u2019m going out and I\u2019m not telling you where I\u2019m going and don\u2019t tell me what to do.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Right. Well, I think the big question, of course, that comes up is, what about when I declare my personal boundaries and my partner has a different set, and they don\u2019t line up. What do we do? Does that mean we\u2019re just not meant to be able to stay together and continue in an open monogamous relationship, because our personal boundaries don\u2019t line up? Or that\u2019s when we come see Tammy Nelson for a session?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>Yes, so that\u2019s where I do see a lot of people. That\u2019s like the trigger that brings people into therapy. And we have a lot of what I call \u201cwhat if\u201d conversations. So what if we did this? What if we did that? And then we have the possibilities. So the possibilities always have problems, but also positives. So the possibility is we could go to the sex party and it could be interesting and fun. There could be a problem like you could love it and I could hate it, and I could be standing by the door going, \u201cCome on Tami, let\u2019s go.\u201d Or the positives could be, yes, we could both have fun. It could be kind of interesting, and we could be curious about it and just find it like a lark, and it could be kind of sexually exciting for both of us. And then we could leave and bring that energy home.<\/span><\/p>\n

So always talk about whatever the possibility is as having problems but also positives, so that we can look at both sides of it. Most people need to have those consenting conversations for a long time before you actually do anything. The people who do well in these kind of relationships are the people who can really communicate and really talk about all this stuff. Now, there is a wall that you hit, where you can get to communication exhaustion, where you just over-talk about things to death before you do anything. And that can be defeating for people. But I think the people that are able to discuss things openly do much better.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Right, but wouldn\u2019t you say that\u2019s true in any relationship? Whoever you are as a human, you\u2019re going to do a whole lot better dealing with other humans if you can communicate well. Wouldn\u2019t you say that\u2019s true?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>Yes, and I think that maybe why these types of relationships are growing in popularity is because they tend to be people who practice this. Not just like give it lip service, but really practice it. So they talk about it before anything happens. They listen to each other. They go through all the possibilities and the potential before anything happens. And then, when they do something, they talk about, \u201cHow was that for you? How was that for me? What was positive about it? What was negative? What do you want to repeat? How are you feeling? What do you need for comfort?\u201d And then, \u201cWhat do you want to do next time?\u201d Which is not necessarily what we all do all the time\u2014right?\u2014in our normal relationship world. I think people who do this well are really, really pretty good at that. And I think that\u2019s part of the reason that they do well in their relationships.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>OK. I need to surface\u2014here\u2019s my big judgment. Here we go. The one that I came into this discussion with. OK. It was interesting to me that you\u2019re a certified Imago relationship therapist. So in my view, that means you\u2019ve been trained by Harville Hendrix and Helen Hunt and their deep work about how relationships can be so healing\u2014when there\u2019s this type of security that you have with your partner and you can go back and do all this early repair work from whatever experiences people had in their early life. And I think the judgment I\u2019ve had is that when you start are bringing other people in, it\u2019s like the chalice is broken and you don\u2019t have that same holding space for this deep healing work to happen. So I\u2019m curious of what you have to say about that.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>Yes, so when I work with people that have multiple partners, for example, they can come in with like a pod of people with multiple partners. And in Imago therapy, we talk about that there\u2019s never a coincidence that you choose a partner that you choose. We always choose someone who\u2019s going to finish off the unfinished business of our childhood, right? So when we see people in a couple, it\u2019s really clear that people are together because they\u2019re healing their inner wounds and they\u2019re growing as people.<\/span><\/p>\n

When I see people in a group\u2014like a pod of people who have multiple partners\u2014I see all of their sibling issues. It\u2019s like all of the sibling issues are triggered in that group. So not only are you dealing with all of your parental projections but now you\u2019re dealing with all of your sibling stuff. And I think that as a society, we are moving into all of our community issues, that it\u2019s not just about me or you, it\u2019s about can we exist and heal as a community, as a village, as our connections to others?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

I really see this as an expanded moment in our culture to look at how we relate to other people, not just how we relate to each other, but how we relate to groups, so that we can all connect in a bigger group. Maybe we can all exist in bigger, more expanded relationships. Maybe we all need that. I think in the pandemic, you felt that. A lot of us were isolated and home with a small pod of safe people, and we realized that there was a craving for more support and more connection, and maybe it is possible to have that in our lives. And I think people are working toward that, perhaps on an evolutionary level. I don\u2019t think this would be happening if it wasn\u2019t evolving toward something that maybe we need spiritually and emotionally.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>So you said open monogamous relationships are on the rise. What are the statistics?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>Well, it is interesting. Right now they\u2019re saying four to five percent of everyone is in some kind of consensually non-monogamous relationship. I think it\u2019s hard to get accurate statistics if we don\u2019t know exactly what people are saying is a \u201cconsensually non-monogamous\u201d relationship. And we don\u2019t know what age groups are being asked. I think now that we\u2019re creeping out of the pandemic and coming out of the cave and back out into the light, we\u2019ll have more statistics on that, because we are getting some research now on what the pandemic has done to our sex lives and to our intimate relationships. I think we\u2019re going to have more information on how people are choosing non-monogamy, because I think there is an uprising toward taking some risks outside of traditional monogamy. People had a lot of shut-in feelings and now they\u2019re taking more adventurous looks at how they can expand their marriages. But they\u2019re not getting divorced. They\u2019re not breaking up, which I think is also an interesting comment about what happens in forced domesticity for so long.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>OK, so I\u2019m going to circle back to my question, just because I really want to a drill all the way down if it\u2019s OK, Tammy, with you, which has to do with this belief I had come to, previous to this conversation, that there was some kind of depth of both of healing and transformation and I\u2019ll say love\u2014a depth of love that\u2019s possible in an exclusively, traditionally monogamous relationship that somehow, some of the energy would leak out of the system or something. If it was an alchemical vessel, something like that, you just wouldn\u2019t want to ever break the vessel, break the chalice. What do you think about that? Do you think that I have just like bought into that or maybe that\u2019s just true for some people, but also not true for others and just leave it at that?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>Well, I know what my clients say, or the people that I interview. One of the arguments is if you have more than one child, it doesn\u2019t feel like having more than one child takes away from the love you have for one of them\u2014that you can love more than one kid, and it doesn\u2019t feel like you have to divide up the love. And that makes sense to me, I get it.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

I also think that there is something to be said for the developmental phases of relationship. Before you settle down or get married, we encourage people to date around. Don\u2019t settle down, find yourself, date a bunch of people, and then choose. And so that\u2019s a non-monogamous time of life. And then you settle down and you bed down with someone, really, to create a family, gay or straight. It\u2019s a monogamous time in your life to create that safety for family time. And then a lot of people will have that family period of time, and then if they have kids or they get older, there\u2019s a period of time when the kids are older when people start to stick their head up and look around for multiple partners.<\/span><\/p>\n

Now, whether they cheat or open their marriage, it does seem to be age-related, where people start to open again to non-monogamy. And then you get older and you get really tired and you just go back home and say, OK, I\u2019m done. I just want to stay home with one person. So it may be that it is developmentally related. It could be that it is personality related, although they haven\u2019t seen any research to back that up.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Some people have connected it to attachment styles\u2014 that people who are avoidantly attached maybe using it to avoid intimacy. People who are anxious and insecurely attached may not do well in this style of relationship. I haven\u2019t really seen that. Maybe I haven\u2019t seen enough people to make that overarching statement.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

You may be right. It might be some people are just more comfortable in a one-on-one relationship and less comfortable with taking the risk. It certainly is a risk, there\u2019s no guarantee. Even if you have an agreement that says, \u201cWe\u2019re not going to fall in love with anyone else.\u201d Or \u201cWe\u2019re not going to be emotionally attached to anyone.\u201d There\u2019s no way to prevent that, especially if you\u2019re having sex with someone else. You can\u2019t really prevent the potential of falling in love with someone else.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Yes, yes, for sure. Now Tammy, it\u2019s back to you, over to you. Tell us, where are you on the open monogamy continuum, if you\u2019re willing to share. Here you are, you\u2019re a sexologist, you must get these kinds of direct questions. I hope is it OK that I\u2019m asking these?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>Yes, all the time people are going to ask me.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>OK.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>It\u2019s so funny because this is my sixth book and a couple books ago, I wrote <\/span>Getting The Sex You Want<\/span><\/i>, which was using Imago therapy. But to talk about sex and my husband, this is my second marriage. My husband bragged to everyone that that book was totally about him, and then my next book was <\/span>The New Monogamy<\/span><\/i>: <\/span>Redefining Your Relationship after Infidelity<\/span><\/i>. So everyone asked him, was he the cheater or was I the cheater? And so he had to tell everyone, \u201cNo, we didn\u2019t have an affair.\u201d That was all about my clients. And now people are, of course, everyone\u2019s asking if we have an open relationship and what kind. And this book is definitely written with all of our practice of relationship agreement.<\/span><\/p>\n

So every book I\u2019ve written, we have practiced every single exercise in the books, or else I wouldn\u2019t try them with my clients. And I certainly wouldn\u2019t write about them. We have worked on all of these consensual agreements and they\u2019re all based on trust and not safety. Safety can be an eroticism killer, but trust takes a lot of risk. And so our relationship is totally open: whatever the two of us agree on, whatever we want to do, whatever conversations we want to have. But right now, this time in our life, I\u2019m so busy and so tired that I can barely find time to be with him, but we do have what I call a \u201cliving apart together\u201d relationship.<\/span><\/p>\n

He spends a lot of time on the East Coast taking care of his 97-year-old mother for about four to six weeks at a time, and I\u2019m on the West Coast. So we spend a lot of time living apart. So I think an open relationship, where we agree that if we want to be with other people, we can, really works for us. I just don\u2019t really pull the trigger because I\u2019m too tired.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now you said this interesting thing that safety can be an eroticism killer, and I pulled this sentence from <\/span>Open Monogamy<\/span><\/i> that got my attention. \u201cDon\u2019t stay in a closed monogamous relationship out of fear.\u201d Don\u2019t stay in a closed \u2026 out of fear.\u201d And yet I imagine a lot of people are afraid of what you described a few minutes earlier, which is if we open it up, either I or my partner will end up having sex with someone, falling in love with them. And then the fear is that this will be the end of something I hold so dear, so central, so sacred\u2014and that\u2019s a real fear. So now here I am, I\u2019m acting with this prioritization of safety. So I\u2019m wondering if you can address that.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>Yes, I think the risk of having sex with someone else and falling in love is always there, whether you give your partner permission to do so or not. And the more you talk about it, the \u201csafer\u201d you are.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Peggy Vaughan, who\u2019s passed away now, but she used to say\u2014she wrote <\/span>The Monogamy Myth<\/span><\/i>. She used to say, just because you got married and promised your monogamy one time at the altar, that\u2019s not a lifelong preventative deal. It\u2019s like saying, \u201cI told you I loved you when I married you so I shouldn\u2019t have to tell you. I\u2019ll remind you if I stop loving you, but I shouldn\u2019t have to say it again.\u201d The reality is it doesn\u2019t prevent you from falling in love with someone else. The permission thing is an interesting idea\u2014that if I give you permission to be with someone else, then somehow that\u2019s a risk.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

I think it helps if you are considering any openness to consider the veto power. In other words, if either of you are feeling like this could be a little risky\u2014\u201cI don\u2019t particularly like this person.\u201d Or, \u201cI feel really insecure about this.\u201d Then you have the power to veto this behavior like, \u201cOK Tammy, I don\u2019t like this other person and maybe we should stop there.\u201d That tends to add more trust to the relationship.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

But I think what I mean by safety versus trust is we create safety for our family, for children. We feel safe the more familial we are, the more familiar, but we don\u2019t want to have sex with our family. So the safer we are, the more familial we are, the less sexual we are.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

And trust is different. Trust means we can take risks within the relationship because we trust our partner. But it also means we can push our limits and push our edge knowing that person will still be here for us. That\u2019s scary. It\u2019s much scarier than feeling safe, but it means we can grow. Eroticism is about taking risks. After you have really good sex, you should feel, like, a little embarrassed. You should feel like, oh my God, I can\u2019t believe I said that. I can\u2019t believe I made that noise. Eroticism is a way to push your own boundaries, and doing that with someone that you trust is really powerful.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now let me ask you about this \u201cveto power,\u201d because if I entered an openly monogamous relationship where my partner could veto someone\u2014let\u2019s say they vetoed this person because I\u2019m falling in love with this person, but I\u2019ve already taken a bite of the apple, I\u2019m falling in love. And then now this seems like this is a setup for a pretty major conflict. They\u2019re vetoing someone that I\u2019m quite smitten with.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>Yes, that could be problematic, because that sets up that familial, parental thing of like, \u201cYou can\u2019t date that person anymore.\u201d So now you\u2019re going to sneak around. You\u2019re going to feel tragically prevented from seeing your loved one. It definitely sets up a problem. I totally understand that. And I think the more honest you are about coming to your partner first and doing what I call \u201cpreventing\u201d\u2014which is I need to vent and tell you that I\u2019m freaking out because I have feelings for this person and let\u2019s talk about it before it gets to that place.<\/span><\/p>\n

I think that could be helpful. But again, this is a total risk. It\u2019s just like if you weren\u2019t in an openly monogamous relationship and you met someone at work. Just because you\u2019re married doesn\u2019t mean you\u2019re dead. You probably are going to be attracted to other people at some point in your life, and how honest can you be? Open monogamy also means that you\u2019re open about your feelings, and you\u2019re open about conversations. Can you be open about coming to your partner and saying, \u201cI have feelings for this person,\u201d or, \u201cI\u2019m attracted to this person and I think that means we need to talk. This could be risky. Maybe we need to have a longer conversation about what\u2019s going on with us.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Yes. So one of the focuses of your new book is the subtitle: <\/span>A Guide to Co-Creating Your Ideal Relationship Agreement<\/span><\/i>. So let\u2019s say someone\u2019s listening to this and they\u2019re like, gosh, the truth is my partner and I, we haven\u2019t talked about a lot of these things. There\u2019s a lot that\u2019s under the surface and there\u2019s a lot of desires I have that aren\u2019t being addressed. I want to move forward and explore\u2014who knows at what level of the continuum\u2014but I want to begin exploring some kind of open monogamy agreement. What are your dos and don\u2019ts for doing so?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>Hmm, such a good question. I would not start the conversation with, \u201cI met someone else.\u201d That\u2019s very scary.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>No.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>Yes, that\u2019s very scary or, \u201cI\u2019m in love with someone else.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>\u201cI listened to a podcast.\u201d Jesus.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>I think \u201cI listened to a podcast\u201d is actually a great way to open the conversation. I listened to the Tami-Tammy podcast, and I\u2019m wondering how you feel about open relationships or how you feel about having a more fluid monogamy. I\u2019m so curious now what that might mean. How do you feel about that? And starting a what-if conversation: What if we did this? What if we did that? What would it be like if we did this? And have you ever heard of that? And do we know anyone that does this and have we ever seen anyone on TV? And Will Smith and Jada Pinkett Smith just came out and said they have an open relationship, and what do we think of them?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Really begin the conversation as a what if. Not as a when do we do it and who do we sleep with? And I really like the neighbor and your best friend is cute. I would keep all specific people out of the conversation. And I would also take away any mention of \u201clet\u2019s start it next week,\u201d but really talk about it as if it\u2019s a fantasy conversation.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Now I think this notion of increased eroticism, increased sexual satisfaction, it makes sense to me that open monogamy could deliver that. I offered you my bias towards the depth and healing and transformation that I think this closed monogamy can offer. What I\u2019m curious about is, beyond sexual fulfillment\u2014which is a big deal\u2014what else do you think can come from open monogamy that\u2019s like, look, here are some of the real benefits to open up to and to see.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>Well, I really think that people who have multiple partners actually really enjoy the potential of finding new parts of themselves. So it\u2019s not necessarily that people look for other partners, they look to be other parts of themselves. So finding a different part of themselves because they\u2019re with someone else, they can bring that other part of themselves into the relationship. And suddenly, they have an expanded experience of being together. So you may be a different part with a different partner that suddenly your wife has never seen before.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Right, sure.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>And suddenly, you have a much richer experience of each other\u2014<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Sure.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>\u2014that you may not have even known existed.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>But that\u2019s what I feel, by living in integrity, that you can integrate all those parts of yourself into your relationship. It\u2019s not a moral issue, it\u2019s like remembering those dismembered parts of yourself.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Yes, that\u2019s helpful, that\u2019s good. Now Tammy, my eyes were opened in reading <\/span>Open Monogamy <\/span><\/i>to some vocabulary that I was never familiar with before. And you have an interesting glossary at the end of the book. So I\u2019m going to throw some of these words out to you and you can explain to our audience what they mean. Let\u2019s start with <\/span>solo poly<\/span><\/i>. What\u2019s that?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>That is when someone is an individual solo person, but who wants to date other people who are polyamorous. So they may not want to commit to just a single partner, but they could date people who have multiple partners.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>OK. A <\/span>metamour<\/span><\/i>.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>A metamour is if you were in an open relationship and you had a lover, that\u2019s how your partner would refer to that lover. It\u2019s like everyone\u2019s lover in the relationship.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>So your husband comes to visit you out there in Southern California and says, \u201cI\u2019d love to meet my metamour.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>I\u2019d love to meet <\/span>your<\/span><\/i> metamour. Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I\u2019d love to meet your metamour.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>How would you feel if your husband came to LA and said that?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>I would feel like we had already had a lot of conversations about whoever I was with and I\u2019d be thrilled if that was the case. I\u2019d be thrilled that I had enough time to have a metamour and that I had enough time to bring them over.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Which actually does bring up an interesting point, because I was reflecting on my closed monogamy status and I thought to myself, I barely have time for the relationship I\u2019m in. I\u2019m very work focused, very mission driven, and then I have my whole internal life, whatever. I don\u2019t have time at all, not even close. And also, the complexity. There\u2019s the actual time, and then the complexity that comes with it and the emotional complexity. I think that\u2019s actually a really big factor.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>Myself as well. I get a little jealous of when I hear people managing their open relationships, I always ask them about their calendar. What days of the week do you see them and how long? And yes, I get a little triggered by that.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>OK. We\u2019ll go back to our vocabulary here. <\/span>Kitchen table poly<\/span><\/i>.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>Kitchen table poly is when you\u2019re polyamorous, you have multiple partners, and everyone comes over and has breakfast together. So you might have a partner, your partner has a partner, they all sleep over on a Saturday night and everyone gets together on Sunday and has brunch. Everybody knows each other, and everybody is part of the family.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Is that a popular form of open monogamy?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>Yes, people who are polyamorous tend to want everyone to be part of the family, part of their relationship.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Right. OK. A <\/span>unicorn<\/span><\/i>.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>A unicorn usually refers to the search for a woman who can be part of a relationship that will sleep with both partners, but will not threaten their monogamous relationship.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>OK. A <\/span>throuple<\/span><\/i>.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>A throuple is\u2014<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Throuple. Sorry, you can tell I\u2019m outside the norm.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>It\u2019s OK. This is not a common term, not yet anyway. A throuple is a committed threesome in a partnership. So two people might have a third person who is a boyfriend or whatever, who is a committed partner, they don\u2019t need another partner, but they\u2019re not as important as the primary partners.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>And here\u2019s the last new vocabulary word for today, <\/span>compersion<\/span><\/i>. Compersion.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>So compersion is actually a made-up word\u2014of course, it was invented in California\u2014which means the opposite of jealousy, because we don\u2019t have a word in our language to mean the opposite of jealousy. It means that you find joy or happiness seeing your partner happy with someone else. It gives you joy that they\u2019re happy and it makes you feel good to see them finding joy, either in a sexual relationship or an emotional connection with someone else. It doesn\u2019t take away from your feeling of connection or happiness with them.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I\u2019m not feeling very positive that I\u2019ll use this word in a sentence anytime soon as something that I\u2019m feeling. But I\u2019m curious, do you feel compersion when you hear about whatever might be happening with your beloved out on the East Coast? Do you feel compersion?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>I\u2019m pretty jealous.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Oh, you are. Well, that\u2019s very interesting. How do you do this? How do you do it, Tammy?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>I think a lot of people are jealous. Just because they have open monogamy or open relationships doesn\u2019t mean they\u2019re not jealous. People still have normal human emotions and normal human responses. I think the people that I know that are doing this that do feel jealousy have a tendency to work more on their jealousy and see it as their own personal spiritual work, instead of focusing it on him like, \u201cYou bastard, you\u2019re doing this to me.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

I would turn it to myself and say, what is this triggering for me? Why am I feeling insecure about this? Am I afraid of losing something? Am I afraid I\u2019m not good enough? Is it bring out my insecurity? Am I feeling old? Am I feeling not good enough? What\u2019s happening here for me and then using it as a tool for my own growth?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>But let\u2019s go into this a little bit more. So you do come to some conclusion that I\u2019m feeling X, Y, Z\u2014old and insecure. What do you do next?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>Remind myself of all the wonderful things about myself that I have going, and that if somebody\u2019s going to leave me for someone younger, let\u2019s say, then there\u2019s nothing I can do about it. Whether we\u2019re open about it or closed about it, I have absolutely no control over another person. I am going to feel good about myself because of what I bring to the table and who I am as a person, and other people are going to have their own decision making process and I can\u2019t control that.<\/span><\/p>\n

Even if I tell them, \u201cYou can never see anybody else, you\u2019re not allowed to be attracted to anyone else.\u201d That\u2019s not going to control their behavior. People are going to do what they\u2019re going to do, and they can meet someone in the grocery store any moment and find themselves attracted to someone. It\u2019s always going to be their choice, and knowing that I\u2019m in a securely attached relationship where we have so much history and we have kids and we have years and years of background together and so much investment together\u2014I trust that we have a strong enough bond that I don\u2019t think my husband\u2019s going to leave me for someone younger. But if he does, good for him.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>If he does, good for him.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>Yes, good for him. I hope he\u2019s happy.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>You\u2019ll feel compersion.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>I\u2019ll try. I\u2019ll work really hard to feel compersion.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>OK, towards the end of <\/span>Open Monogamy<\/span><\/i>, you write, \u201cAlternative relationships are the future.\u201d And I had a moment. I thought, \u201cIs that true?\u201d What convinces you that that\u2019s the case?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>I think what convinces me is that we\u2019ve been going on the same model of marriage for 200 years and we\u2019ve had a lot of shifts in sexuality, we\u2019ve had the sexual revolution, we\u2019ve had a revolution in openness about sexual orientation and gender. But marriage, it\u2019s still the same. It\u2019s still run by these religious organizations. We\u2019re still going on these explicit monogamy agreements, these vows that have not really changed that much.<\/span><\/p>\n

And yet, gay marriage is legal. So much has changed in our assumptions about relationships, but marriage\u2014we suck at marriage. It\u2019s pretty easy to get into a marriage; it\u2019s really hard to get out of a marriage. Divorce is still devastating. It\u2019s still run by an adversarial legal system which costs a fortune, and it\u2019s terrible for families. We still haven\u2019t figured that out. And so it\u2019s bound to change.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Just sociologically, it\u2019s bound to shift. And as it shifts, as the younger generations decide, you know what? My parents got divorced, their parents got divorced, they cheated, they lied. I\u2019m not going to do that. I know that I\u2019m going to live a long time. I\u2019m going to be attracted to more than one person throughout my lifetime, and I don\u2019t want to hurt the people that I love. And so I\u2019m going to do it differently. And more and more young people and more and more people of this generation are saying, \u201cI don\u2019t want to do it the same way it\u2019s always been done. It\u2019s just not going to work for me.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

We know people are getting married later than ever before. We know people are putting off children later than ever before. We know women are making the decision about whether or not to get married. We know women are the gatekeepers of open relationships. They\u2019re deciding when to do it and when to stop. And we know women are the gatekeepers of sexuality. So I think as our society changes, I think relationships in marriage are going to change.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>And just to ask you to clarify that \u201cwomen are the gatekeepers of open monogamy.\u201d I think some people might say it\u2019s the man who\u2019s knocking on the door and saying \u201cthis is what I want.\u201d It\u2019s not the women in the relationships. Why do you say that and what do you mean by \u201cgatekeepers\u201d?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>Well, it\u2019s interesting because it\u2019s true in heterosexual relationships. Men do usually come up with the idea first, but it doesn\u2019t happen unless the female say, \u201cOK, I\u2019ll do it.\u201d And then in my own clinical experience\u2014I don\u2019t have any research for this. My clinical experience has been that the men want to stop sooner, and the women are like, \u201cNo, I\u2019m not stopping. This has been working for me. I\u2019m good.\u201d And that\u2019s just my own clinical observation.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

I don\u2019t know if that\u2019s true across the board. I\u2019d be curious what your listeners think and what their experience has been. But unless the female partners agrees to do it, they\u2019re not going to do it. Most people are not coerced or forced into an open relationship by its nature. It\u2019s open and it\u2019s voluntary.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>So one final question, Tammy\u2014wherever we find ourselves, whoever\u2019s listening on this continuum from closed monogamy and then the whole range that you described to us of open monogamy. Wherever we find ourselves, it seems clear to me from listening to you that being honest, honest with ourselves, honest with our partner, is the through line through everything that you do in your work, having worked with so many thousands of couples. What else would you say, in addition to being honest with ourselves and with each other, are really the most important qualities to you of a relationship that is thriving, that\u2019s vital, that\u2019s alive?<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>I think being flexible, knowing that your relationship and you are going to change. You might feel one way today. Like Tami, you might feel like no way I\u2019m ever opening it. But tomorrow you might feel differently, and being open and flexible around different stages of our lives. You might be open today and decide, you know what? This isn\u2019t working for me and I want to go back to a more traditional monogamous relationship next week. But always being flexible with yourself and with each other, I think, is the key here. Rigidity is the opposite of pleasure, right? And so to keep it flexible means to stay in a pleasurable relationship, and I think that\u2019s part of it. That\u2019s the key<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>I\u2019ve been speaking with Tammy Nelson, she\u2019s the author of the new book <\/span>Open Monogamy: A Guide to Co\u2011Creating Your Ideal Relationship Agreement<\/span><\/i>, an agreement that might change over the years. Thank you so much Tammy. Thank you for your bravery and your honesty and your straightforwardness. Thank you.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TN: <\/b>Thank you, Tami. Thank you so much for having me.<\/span><\/p>\n

TS: <\/b>Thank you for listening to <\/span>Insights at the Edge<\/span><\/i>. You can read a full transcript of today\u2019s interview at SoundsTrue.com\/podcast. And if you\u2019re interested, hit the Subscribe button in your podcast app. And also, if you feel inspired, head to iTunes and leave <\/span>Insights at the Edge <\/span><\/i>a review. I love getting your feedback, being in connection with you, and learning how we can continue to evolve and improve our program. Working together, I believe we can create a kinder and wiser world. SoundsTrue.com: waking up the world.<\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"template":"","meta":{"_expiration-date-status":"","_expiration-date":0,"_expiration-date-type":"","_expiration-date-categories":[],"_expiration-date-options":[]},"class_list":["post-9656","transcript","type-transcript","status-publish","hentry"],"yoast_head":"\nOpen To Open Monogamy - Transcript | Sounds True<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with Open To Open Monogamy. 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