{"id":9688,"date":"2022-01-04T12:56:52","date_gmt":"2022-01-04T19:56:52","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/?post_type=transcript&p=9688"},"modified":"2022-01-04T12:56:52","modified_gmt":"2022-01-04T19:56:52","slug":"what-is-wanting-to-find-expression-through-you","status":"publish","type":"transcript","link":"https:\/\/resources2.soundstrue.com\/transcript\/what-is-wanting-to-find-expression-through-you\/","title":{"rendered":"What Is Wanting to Find Expression Through You?"},"content":{"rendered":"
\"image_print\"Print Transcript<\/span><\/a><\/div>

Tami Simon:<\/strong> Welcome to Insights at the Edge <\/em>produced by Sounds True. My name is Tami Simon, I\u2019m the founder of Sounds True, and I\u2019d love to take a moment to introduce you to the new Sounds True Foundation. The Sounds True Foundation is dedicated to creating a wiser and kinder world by making transformational education widely available. We want everyone to have access to transformational tools such as mindfulness, emotional awareness, and self-compassion regardless of financial, social, or physical challenges. The Sounds True Foundation is a nonprofit dedicated to providing these transformational tools to communities in need, including at-risk youth, prisoners, veterans, and those in developing countries. If you\u2019d like to learn more or feel inspired to become a supporter, please visit SoundsTrueFoundation.org.<\/p>\n

You\u2019re listening to Insights at the Edge.<\/em> Today, my guest is James Hollis. Jim is a Jungian analyst, a former director of the Jung Society of Washington, DC, and the author of more than 15 books, including two books with Sounds True, Living an Examined Life<\/em> and Living Between Worlds: Finding Personal Resilience in Changing Times<\/em>. With Sounds True, he\u2019s also created the audio series, Through the Dark Wood: Finding Meaning in the Second Half of Life<\/em>. And a new series, A Life of Meaning: Exploring Our Deepest Questions and Motivations<\/em>. All right, I\u2019m going to tell it to you as it is. In my work at Sounds True, one of the greatest privileges I feel I have, one of the greatest joys for me is to get to speak with someone who has the depth, the life experience and the ability to help so many people like Jim Hollis. He puts us in touch with\u2014I\u2019m just going to say it how I experience it\u2014with the deepest longings of our soul, and how to have the courage to act on those longings. Here\u2019s my conversation with someone who I find is a terrific help for making meaning, James Hollis.<\/p>\n

It\u2019s personally meaningful for me, Jim, to have this chance to talk to you about me. I think it\u2019s personally meaningful because it\u2019s something I care a lot about and also just because of a lot of passages I\u2019m going through in my own life, coming up on 60 years next year. And I just want to thank you for making the time for this conversation and for the depth of your life and work. So I want to begin by thanking you.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

James Hollis:<\/strong> Well, thank you, Tami. It\u2019s a privilege to be with you today. And I\u2019m always enjoying our conversations.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> To begin, let\u2019s talk about meaning by talking about meaninglessness. And I want to address that and bring in the person right now, who\u2019s listening, who\u2019s going through a period in their life where they say, \u201cTo be honest with you, things feel a little thin, a little lacking in any kind of meaning. I can\u2019t find meaning in my life right now.\u201d Can you address that person and make some suggestions for them of how they could relate to this period in their life?<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

JH:<\/strong> Well, first of all, I think we need to understand that meaning is not something out there that we can find. It\u2019s an experience that we have internally, and if it\u2019s not our experience, then it\u2019s not really meaningful. We have various structures imposed upon us throughout our lives, such as gender roles and limitations. We have all kinds of socioeconomic powers that try to shape us and create our values. But if it\u2019s not consistent with something important going on inside of us, it\u2019s never going to connect. And so I know people who have been or are unhappy because they\u2019re not happy all the time, as if happiness is a kind of steady state. Happiness and meaning are tied together in this regard. In those moments, we\u2019re somehow being consistent with our inner psychological and our spiritual reality. So meaning is something that is when my soul is in right relationship to whatever is happening in my life at that moment.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> OK. But let\u2019s talk to that person who says, \u201cIt used to be previously, before XYZ, that I felt I was in right relationship, but now the work I\u2019m doing, it just doesn\u2019t animate my life anymore. It used to.\u201d Or, \u201cMy kids have left home and the role I had as a parent, that\u2019s not delivering that sense of alignment, that sense of right relation and I\u2019m lost. I\u2019m lost right now.\u201d A previous series you created with Sounds True was called Through the Dark Wood<\/em>. Let\u2019s talk to that person, Jim, right now who\u2019s in a \u201cdark wood,\u201d they feel lost. How can they view this situation instead of just with utter despair, with something else?<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

JH:<\/strong> Well, the first thing that I would want to do is de-pathologize their experience and say, first of all, your psyche is forever moving on, it\u2019s like a flowing stream. And many times, places where we invested our energies heretofore were, in fact, meaningful, but we\u2019ve outgrown that or the life has moved on. You just mentioned the empty nest syndrome. It\u2019s common to all of us. I felt it myself when my last child left and I had to say to myself, now, what would you say to someone who\u2019s in this similar position?<\/p>\n

I would say, look, where you invested your energy is good. Notice they\u2019re off living their journey. It would be far worse if they weren\u2019t. But that energy now has come back to you. What are you going to do with that? That energy has come back to you in a way that brings something to you to sort of consider: where does my life need to go next after this?<\/p>\n

We can\u2019t depend entirely upon outer structures. One of the side effects of the pandemic is so many folks were pulled out of their external structures. Meeting with friends, going to work, hobnobbing with colleagues, etcetera, etcetera. And people were thrown back upon themselves. And understandably often didn\u2019t like the person they met at that moment. So I think we have to, first of all, recognize that meeting itself is a byproduct again, of something going on inside of us. And our outer structures can either support that or oppose that. And we\u2019re often not in charge of what happens in our outer world, quite obviously.<\/p>\n

And so it\u2019s those moments we have to say, all right, now what is my task facing me in this context over which I seem to have no control? Because there\u2019s always a task, that was really the subject of the book and I think a previous lecture that I did for Sounds True called Swamplands of the Soul<\/em>. There are times we are taken there. And the question then is, what is the task you now face that moves you from victimage to an active engagement with your journey? And does it enlarge your journey or does it diminish your journey?<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> So, Jim, you mentioned that during these periods in our life, we could call them passages\u2014I think that\u2019s a term that you use\u2014that there\u2019s some kind of task that\u2019s needed. And in your audio series, A Life of Meaning<\/em>, you talk about this notion that there\u2019s an appointment with destiny that potentially we\u2019re being summoned to keep. And I\u2019d like to hear more about this, this notion that we have these appointments with destiny and how you understand that.<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

JH:<\/strong> Well, if we ever stop and ask ourselves the question that I know we all ask as children, in some fashion, but have forgotten for a long time now: Why am I here? Really, why am I here? Am I just to fit in with a crazy world around me or is there some sense of purpose in my life? And so destiny is really what nature or divinity has invested in us from the beginning. And I think our summons, our job, if you will, is to try to serve that. Because from childhood on, we\u2019re obliged to report to the world what our parents want, what the school teacher wants, what the employer wants, what our partner wants, etcetera, etcetera. And at some point, we always have to ask a different kind of question. And that is: What does my soul want of me? What is wanting to find expression in the world through me? That\u2019s a whole different question.<\/p>\n

One could say in the first half of life were governed by, what does the world want of me? And to what degree can I mobilize my energies and service to my responses to that question? Second half of life: but I\u2019ve been here. Maybe I\u2019ve fulfilled many of those roles and expectations. What now am I to do with my life? What\u2019s wanting expression through me? Now, just give you an example. When I was a child, I think like many children, I thought maybe my desire in life was to be an athlete or something like that. I could never have imagined I would spend most of my days listening to people\u2019s problems. On the other hand, the experience that I have is somehow so enriching and so meaningful to me, I can\u2019t imagine spending my life in any other way.<\/p>\n

And as a result of that, my work makes me happy. The subject matter of these hourly conversations doesn\u2019t make me happy, but the process of being present in people\u2019s life journeys is something that\u2019s profoundly meaningful. So the real question always is: What is the task life is asking of me here that allows my spirit some form of expression and integrity? I think the toughest talk I ever had to give in my lifetime was\u2014I was asked once, in another city, to go talk to a group of glioblastoma patients, all of whom had brain cancer, all of whom would be deceased, most likely, within six months at the outside. Now, what do you say to a group like that? And so I had to ask myself the question: What is it that I would find most difficult about this, apart from leaving loved ones? And what came up on my inner screen was, it\u2019d be the loss of your autonomy, the loss of your freedom. You\u2019re now a creature of the medical process, of the disease process.<\/p>\n

So we talked about ways in which one could remain psychologically, spiritually independent of those processes, working with dreams and meditation and active imagination and so forth. So no matter how dire the circumstance, there\u2019s always a summons to some kind of task whereby we retain our core integrity and our core sense of personhood.<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> I wonder if you could share, from your own personal life, how this reinvention has played out in your adult life, how you\u2019ve gone through passages like this. What\u2019s been required of you?<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

JH:<\/strong> Well, I think one of the passages certainly occurred right on schedule at midlife, at 35, having achieved all the goals that I thought were important in life. I had a serious midlife depression. It sent me to my first hour of psychoanalysis in Philadelphia many, many years ago. And it ultimately led to me, unexpectedly, to traveling to Zurich to completely change my profession from academia to psychoanalysis. And it led me to work through\u2014and still working through, to some degree\u2014some of the issues that life had presented me. So I think that was a passage. And in every passage, something is played out. The roadmap that we have utilized up to this point no longer works, for whatever reasons, is no longer applicable to the terrain in which we find ourselves. In those moments, there\u2019s a terrible in-between. And often, the therapist is a figure who can help us find our way through that in-between time in our life.<\/p>\n

Another passage I\u2019m going through right now, of course, is aging and dealing with illness and that sort of thing, continuing to work at what I love, continuing to express the value of my relationships, but also being very mindful, of course, of a growing sense of physical limitations and limitations of time and energy. So we\u2019re always going through a passage of some kind. Some are larger and more noticeable, some are minimal. But in every case, once again, there\u2019s the summons: What\u2019s the task life is bringing me now? Let me give you one quick example. I was always deeply moved by a letter that I read once from the German pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who was imprisoned by the Hitler regime for his resistance to the Third Reich and was ultimately executed in April 1945.<\/p>\n

And he asked himself there, looking around him. He said, \u201cDid God put me here?\u201d He said, \u201cNo, no, Humans put me here.\u201d But he said, \u201cMy task here is to ask, what is the will of God for me in this situation in which I find myself and over which I have no control?\u201d And I thought that was a very significant move, because again, it was a summons to an accountability, to something within that kept him free even while his outer life was imprisoned.<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> Now you mentioned at this point in your life\u2014you\u2019re 81, correct?\u2014as we\u2019re recording this together. And what would you say is the task that\u2019s currently being asked of you right now in this phase?<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

JH:<\/strong> Well, believe it or not, my biggest task is learning to say no to so many requests for time and for doing things, which is on the one hand gratifying. I\u2019m pleased that people find it of some value to them, but it\u2019s always been hard for me to say no to people whose sincerity and real needs are palpable. I\u2019m also trying to figure out, when do I start tapering back on my workload? Because right now, it\u2019s as busy as it\u2019s ever been. And at the same time I find it, \u00a0as I\u2019ve said, meaningful. So it\u2019s kind of hard to know how to make those sort of changes. But also as I said, to sort of titrate your energies with the changes in the body, because after all, nature has the final verdict on all of this. And as I approach more aging and obviously mortality, I have to say, quite honestly, my biggest concern is the well-being of my wife, who is 80 now and doing well, but also experiencing limitations. And I want to be here for her. And next to that, I\u2019m still curious and still full of imagination. I want to keep learning, there\u2019s so many things I want to learn about.<\/p>\n

And I find learning is still the greatest of joys and I don\u2019t want to give that up, but I\u2019m also very much resigned to being mortal. I don\u2019t find myself anxious about mortality. I prefer not to have to die in pain. I hope that\u2019s not the case, but on the other hand, that\u2019s out of my hands. So I have to say, quite honestly, this is probably the best time of my life because I feel freer, psychologically speaking. I find myself being less and less concerned about what the world might think about me or whatever the opinions I express might be. And I\u2019m willing to abide by my history and what seems to be, again, wishing expression through me. So if I serve that, I think it\u2019s an interesting journey and I\u2019m glad just to be on it.<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> Well, first of all, I\u2019m so happy to hear, Jim, that you\u2019re feeling such a sense of fulfillment at this point in your life. And yes, that makes me happy. And thank you for saying yes to this request, to be on this podcast, with all the requests you\u2019re saying no to. Now I want to check something out. What I hear you saying in this part of our conversation so far is that if we\u2019re going to keep our appointment with destiny, we have to be willing to, you could say, reinvent yourself. Or you could say, just keep inquiring, keep asking what\u2019s wanted now? How does life want to work through me now? It\u2019s not like you check a box at some point and go, oh good, glad I took care of meaning. Glad that\u2019s done. There\u2019s no checking the box. Is that your understanding?<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

JH:<\/strong> Absolutely. No, no, we need to keep reinventing ourselves. I\u2019ve always been moved by some lines by Yeats, who was criticized for some substantial changes he made in his writing style. He said:<\/p>\n

The friends that have it I do wrong<\/p>\n

When ever I remake a song,
\nShould know what issue is at stake:
\nIt is myself that I remake.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

So our sense of self keeps evolving. And again, there are more mysteries to explore, there are more ways to reflect on things. There are more opportunities, frankly, to be of service to people as well. I find myself increasingly wanting to be helpful in life. I mean, quite apart from profession, but to say everybody out there is suffering, and if you can just be kind to somebody that you meet or be thoughtful about how you help them with their jobs, then you will find your life is enriched by that.<\/p>\n

Going through the medical process, for example, I went through 40 sessions of radiation plus a lot of other treatments, and I found myself waiting with other folks before treatment. And what was remarkable was nobody was saying anything. Everybody was looking away. I think people were feeling their own fears, but they were also somehow feeling tremendously isolated, almost as like we\u2019re all sharing some secret here. And so I made a point of . . . I mean, I\u2019m a \u00a0\u00a0introvert, but I found myself trying to be an extrovert there and talking to of people. \u201cHow long did it take you to get here today?\u201d Because people are coming from all over the area. Simple question like that.<\/p>\n

Nobody was offended by that question, it was very innocuous. But from that, people started talking and, after a while, we started greeting each other and finding out where people came from and what they did for a living or what they were doing with their lives. And I don\u2019t say this with any sense of personal grandiosity. I\u2019m simply saying it lightened the experience for all of us, and I met some very nice people there. And that psychological isolation was the thing that I was most finding to be the case among my colleagues in treatment. And I realized that was more damaging than all the other things people were going through.<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> Now in this series, A Life of Meaning<\/em>, a couple of different times, you brought into your presentation a quote from Rainer Maria Rilke, \u201cThe goal of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things.\u201d And then at one point you said, \u201cTo be defeated by greater and greater things is how we keep our appointment with destiny.\u201d And I wanted to understand how you understand that Rilke quote and why we need to allow ourselves to be defeated by greater and greater things to keep our appointment.<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

JH:<\/strong> Sure. In the first half of life, I couldn\u2019t have imagined acknowledging defeat. I would say, \u201cWe\u2019re here and we\u2019re supposed to keep working hard to win these things.\u201d But of course, what Rilke was really driving at was if we are being continuously defeated by ever-larger things, guess what? We\u2019re taking on larger things, we\u2019re taking on the places that maybe we didn\u2019t feel permission to access before, maybe we\u2019re afraid to address that. And one of the things you can say at this stage of life, there are fewer things to fear. One of the things you can say, having survived certain kinds of significant illnesses or brushes with death, well, there\u2019s less anxiety about that ironically. And one of the things you can say is, if I\u2019m continuously being defeated, that means I\u2019m growing, because I\u2019m taking life on.<\/p>\n

And somehow, that seems to be far more interesting than trying to find a safe place to hide out. And we know there are many places to hide out in life and hiding out has struck me as ultimately anti-life itself. Why are we here? Not to make a splash in the world, because all of that is evanescent and delusionary anyhow. It\u2019s more about saying, what I am called to be more fully is myself, with respect for everyone else. We\u2019re not talking about narcissism here. We\u2019re talking about if you are comfortable within your own sack of skin, so to speak, relatively able to accept yourself and forgive yourself, the mistakes that you\u2019ve made in your life, then it\u2019s a far better way to go in this world. Then you can be open and sharing and comfortable with other people.<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> OK, but I\u2019m still not 100 percent clear what this means: to be defeated by larger and larger things. And I wonder if you can just give me a specific example of defeat: this was a defeat.<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

JH: <\/strong>Well, first of all, at midlife, I felt tremendously defeated, having been victorious in all the things that I wanted to attain in life, by having that midlife depression. That was very confusing to me, to stay the least. I came to recognize that that was my psyche\u2019s way of showing up and saying, \u201cBut there are other issues we really want you to address, so you\u2019ve got a different agenda coming up.\u201d So that felt like a defeat of my conscious plans and intentions. To use the example of illness we were talking about, I was in treatment for two different cancers and required an enormous amount of commitment to treatment plans and schedules and the whole medical hospital regimen and so forth. And so I determined I was going to sort of allocate as much psychological energy as needed to be present and cooperative and, I hope, cordial to all of those processes.<\/p>\n

And at the same time to say, all right, I\u2019m going to maximize enjoying what I enjoy doing\u2014that is to say being with my wife, enjoying my work, enjoying writing, and so forth. And so what would\u2019ve been seen as a defeat there, I think, was actually a summons to a different kind of challenge, not to be owned by a process, to recognize its importance and, again, allocate what was obligatory, but also not to be defined by that. Now in the past, I would consider that a kind of nuisance and a kind of defeat of my scheduled intentions, but a change of attitude can help enormously in all these matters.<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> Now in the series A Life of Meaning<\/em>, you say very definitively, \u201cThere\u2019s something in us that always knows what is right for us.\u201d And I thought, well when someone\u2019s in a difficult passage, they\u2019re not in touch with that part of them that knows what\u2019s right for us. How do we find that part of us when it far away?<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

JH:<\/strong> That\u2019s a very good question, because first of all, yes. And I\u2019ve learned the hard way, there\u2019s something in us that always knows what\u2019s right for us. And I can say quite literally, if I need to decide what is appropriate for me in any life situation, ranging from practical problems to large questions of life, I sort of put it inside and wait for an answer. And it always comes back to me. It\u2019s almost like, and I\u2019ve imagined a bunch of little folks running around inside the solar plexus, working on these things and they always get a report back to me. What happens . . . You\u2019re right. When one is in those difficult places, one forgets that we have within us extraordinary resources, the resources of resilience, the resources of insight, the resources of adaptation, and resources of courage at times. And underneath all of this is a question: From whence comes my real authority? See, we\u2019re born with it. It\u2019s called instinct, but we immediately have to trade it away because the demands of our environment are so large. We have to sort of constantly be trading off with our environment until we lose contact with it.<\/p>\n

And then we begin to say of the enormous traffic that we have going on inside of all of us and coming at us every single day, which voices from that extraordinary m\u00e9lange of voices truly come from your own soul, from your own depths? Now sort through that. It takes time, it\u2019s a discernment process. And when you find it, then find the courage to live it. And if you do, this will be the right path for you. It\u2019s not necessarily the path that will lead to an instantaneous resolution or will please people or even make your life simple. It\u2019s rather going to be the path that\u2019s right for you. Most of the people that we would admire in history are people who found that voice within them in moments of crisis, and they held true to that voice and something carried them through.<\/p>\n

You can put it this way. He said, \u201cWe all need to know what supports us when nothing supports us.\u201d And I think that is a profound paradox. What supports me when nothing supports me? And so I know that when I need to make a decision, I wait for the dream. Waking at three in the morning, I see something from a different standpoint. I even find it sometimes when I\u2019m driving and I\u2019m distracted and something comes up from below. It\u2019s in those moments that you recover a relationship to your own truth, and that\u2019s the discovery of a personal authority.<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> Now you mentioned that if we look in history at many of the people that we have the greatest respect for, we\u2019ll find that they are people who didn\u2019t follow convention, but they listened to their own inner guidance, their own instincts. And you bring forward on the series A Life of Meaning<\/em>, this notion that there\u2019s a community of exiles, that we can find a sense of belonging with this community of exiles. And I wanted to hear more about that as someone who\u2019s often felt like an outsider, like an exile.<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

JH:<\/strong> Sure, sure. I think most of us, as children, when we stopped for a moment, reflected on what we were seeing or what we were being told thought, \u201cThis doesn\u2019t make sense to me.\u201d But I remember specifically when I was around 10 thinking that, and I\u2019m remember thinking that I\u2019m just a kid and those are the big people and they must know what\u2019s going on. So I guess I\u2019m wrong, I\u2019ll just shelve that for now. Well, I grew up to be one of the big people, came to realize not many people know what\u2019s going on. And most of those who act like they do, I think you\u2019d better question their intentions. It\u2019s rather a question of saying, what is it in me that leads me to where I am most comfortable with my own soul? You see, that\u2019s the critical issue here. We had that authority, we lost it, we have to recover it. And again, underneath all of this is the summons to accountability, to what is true for us.<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> Now that\u2019s interesting. This word, accountability. What do you mean by that?<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

JH:<\/strong> Well, to be accountable means everything that comes out of me, whether intended or not, is clearly trailing in my own wake and I am responsible for that. People have the notion that in analysis, you lie on a couch or complain about mom and dad. Well, that\u2019s not true. It\u2019s certainly true that one is greatly influenced by gigantic figures in our lifetime. But the critical issue here is we\u2019re not dwelling in the past. If the past isn\u2019t past, it\u2019s present and influencing your present. And you\u2019re accountable for that. I might say, well, there are various forces that worked on my life and I couldn\u2019t help those forces and powers and neglects and so forth. And yet I\u2019m making choices every day, and what it means to be an adult, psychologically speaking, is to be accountable.<\/p>\n

I am responsible for that. Now, Jung pointed it out once, he said our biggest shortcoming actually is that we walk in shoes too small for us. We live small lives. He said, secondarily, he said the greatest burden a child can bear is the unlived life of the parent. So if I\u2019m accountable, then I\u2019m also accountable to the unlived life. I\u2019m accountable to stepping into what life has asked of me and what is wishing expression from me. And at the end of the journey, if we\u2019re conscious, we look back on this, we might say, well, I wish I\u2019d done this or that or regret this.<\/p>\n

That\u2019s part of that accountability, but at the same time, one wants to say, I was here, I did the best I could, and I\u2019m glad for the journey I\u2019ve had. And we can only do that by being accountable, not only to the consequences of our choices or failed choices, but also to what is looking for expression through us into the world.<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> Now I want to see if I understand something, Jim, because it\u2019s one thing for me to be accountable in my own life for whatever is unlived in me and the choices I\u2019m making or not making, the things I\u2019m doing, not doing. But am I also somehow accountable for the unlived life of my parents, my grandparents?<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

JH:<\/strong> That\u2019s a very good question, because we all have with us the internalized models of the lives that were lived before us, and there\u2019s a strong tendency for folks to repeat those models. That\u2019s why you have phrases like the biblical, \u201cThe sins of the parents are visited until the third generation\u201d\u2014until that sort of wears out, you see? So the first tendency is, in the face of these influences, to repeat them. Therefore, you see patterns running through the generations. Second is to run from them. Anytime a person says, well, I don\u2019t want to be like my mother, or I don\u2019t want to live my father\u2019s life, we\u2019re still being governed by that. We\u2019re still saying, \u201cI want to be not that,\u201d and yet that\u2019s still playing a role. Or thirdly, maybe we\u2019re out there unconsciously dealing with this in a life of distraction, a life of busyness, a life of addiction\u2014we\u2019re not uninfluenced by these forces.<\/p>\n

We\u2019re always influenced by them. So the question then is always to ask this pragmatic question: What do those examples have a tendency to make me do, or to keep me from doing? That\u2019s a different question. And that begins to open the doors to saying, well, I found that myself, I\u2019m often inhibited in the areas where my parents were. Or I find myself sort of pushing toward the same values they had even though they don\u2019t fit me. Or they blocked me from making those choices. I didn\u2019t get the permission that I needed to have. And one of the issues I mentioned in one of the Sounds True books is one of the central tasks of the second half of life is to grab hold of the permission, live your own journey. If you don\u2019t have that, you don\u2019t have anything.<\/p>\n

And if you don\u2019t struggle to find that personal authority that we were talking about, you don\u2019t have anything. You may have a well-adjusted life, you may have a productive and affluent and \u201csuccessful\u201d life, but it\u2019s somebody else\u2019s life. Oscar Wilde said once, \u201cMost people wind up living somebody else\u2019s life.\u201d And there\u2019s a lot of truth to that because of the power of examples around us.<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> Now, I listened to A Life of Meaning<\/em>. And as I was listening to this eight-session series, it\u2019s over eight hours, I took a bunch of notes. And before having this conversation with you, Jim, I went over my notes and I circled the things that I thought were the most interesting to bring forward. And I noticed a theme that again and again, I wrote things down that had to do with giving into fear. And I\u2019ll just give one quote here you say, \u201cIt\u2019s all right to be scared, it\u2019s not all right to live a scared life.\u201d<\/p>\n

And you talk about the work you\u2019ve done with people. You specifically focused, in this one comment, people who are between the age of 65 and 80 and how they said\u2014you saw this theme\u2014the thing that kept them from feeling fulfilled at the end of their lives were all the different ways that they had given into fear and were living a constricted, fear-filled life. So this really stuck with me as a theme, that if we\u2019re going to have a meaningful life, we have to work through our fears and move through them. And I want to know more about what you\u2019ve seen really helps people do that.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

JH:<\/strong> Well, yes, first of all, it sounds horribly reductionistic to say, good, many of our behaviors, maybe even most of them are fear based, fear driven, or defenses against our fears. That\u2019s natural, because fear itself is not the problem. If we didn\u2019t have any fear, we\u2019d walk right in front of a truck. Fear is provided us by nature to protect us. On the other hand, fear also constricts, often limits our capacities and our range of options. And so when we get right down to it, there are elemental fears that a child has that stay so deeply lodged in people, they continue to dictate their lives, such as the fear of what will happen if someone doesn\u2019t like me.<\/p>\n

That alone you see, when you\u2019re a child, if nobody likes you, you\u2019re in big trouble. You\u2019re very isolated. And you feel that sense of exile that you mentioned before. And I realize I didn\u2019t quite finish that question, let me just touch on that a moment. Many times people feel there\u2019s something wrong with me if I don\u2019t fit in and secretly they\u2019re in exile, but they think there\u2019s something wrong with them when that\u2019s the case. Where I say there\u2019s a community of exiles, because many people feel that they just don\u2019t have political parties, they don\u2019t meet and talk about it. They keep it because they\u2019re secretly frightened or even ashamed. And so underneath all of that, you see, is the fear of disapproval, of being outside of the circle of welcoming folks.<\/p>\n

So again, the fears that we have are normal and natural. The question is, what does it mean to be living a fear-based agenda? Then your life is always constricted. Then it\u2019s sabotaging the expression of your possibilities in life. Jung said once, in a book published in 1912, \u201cThe spirit of evil is negation of the life force by fear.\u201d That\u2019s strong language. Only boldness can deliver us from fear, and if the risk is not taken, meaning of life is violated. Now, I think of that as a kind of daily reminder to me. The way I put it in one of the books The Middle Passage<\/em>, \u201cEvery morning, two gremlins at the foot of the bed, challenging us and threatening us, fear and lethargy. Fear says, it\u2019s too much, it\u2019s too big for you. You can\u2019t handle this life. And lethargy says, chill out. Tomorrow\u2019s another day, turn on the television, try to be distracted if you can.\u201d<\/p>\n

And both of them are the enemies of life, and they\u2019ll be there again tomorrow, no matter what you do today. So we have to realize they are inside of us. The biggest enemies to life are inside of us: fear and lethargy. If we can address that life opens up and begins to be what it\u2019s supposed to be, in my view, the unfolding of the gem that each of us embodies in this world.<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> All right. But I\u2019m still wanting to understand, for those of us who have a lot of fear, maybe it\u2019s the fear of humiliation or fears of failure, other things. And we can say, Jim, I\u2019m inspired by you, but I\u2019m going to tell the truth here, these fears are holding me back. I get it, I get it. They\u2019re holding me back. Are you just telling me, go through it anyway, bust on through, I mean, just\u00a0.\u00a0.\u00a0.<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

JH:<\/strong> Well to a degree, but also realize that probably 90 percent of the energy that is blocking you really has its origin in your childhood, where everything was overwhelming. That where we are stuck, and everybody has stuck places in life, is the triggering of moving through whatever the stuck place may be, activates a field of archaic anxiety that lies in the basement for all of us. And we have to realize that\u2019s where it\u2019s coming from, it\u2019s all from the past. Now, for example, many surveys have indicated the American public\u2019s greatest fear is public speaking. And what\u2019s the fear underneath that? Well, I\u2019ll say something and somebody\u2019s going to dislike that. That\u2019s a very childlike, an archaic fear, but again, it operates in us to the degree that that\u2019s people\u2019s biggest fear. Now what you have to do is smoke that out and say, all right, but that\u2019s like asking the child that I was to drive the automobile that I drive today.<\/p>\n

We would never dream of that. And yet we\u2019re placing that childhood fear in the driver\u2019s seat of our lives. So what you have to stand up to is the child\u2019s fear of whatever it is that you are being blocked by. And yes, sooner or later one has to go through it. So the way I always deal with public speaking is to say look, it\u2019s not about me. My role here is simply to be the vehicle for certain kinds of ideas or values. So pull yourself out of the picture, right? At the end of the day, you still live with your own journey. This is about being a vehicle for life, and it\u2019s true for all of us. Life asks us to serve it and we don\u2019t serve it when we\u2019re constricted and our life is narrowed down to fear-based responses.<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> Can you give me an example from your life, if you would, of identifying a fear that was holding you back and how you were able to work through it?<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

JH:<\/strong> Well, I just gave you one, I think, as a card-carrying introvert, I was always afraid of public speaking and yet I spent all my life in teaching, so that\u2019s public speaking every day at some level. And that\u2019s why I began to realize, it\u2019s not about me, it\u2019s about standing in relationship to the material that you care about and sharing that with others. So it was about reframing the fear and recognizing in subsequent life, but that\u2019s something derived from your family of origin really. In fact, I grieve at how intimidated my parents were, who would never speak up on behalf of something because of their life history, and how constricting that was for my life for the early years.<\/p>\n

And rather than judge it, I grieve it. And at the same time, I can\u2019t afford to have my life governed by their fears. So sooner or later, again, what is our ultimate obligation? It\u2019s to serve whatever our soul asks of us. And I use that word soul in the sense of our deepest sense of purpose and identity in life. And again, it has very little to do, per se, with outer tasks. It\u2019s often being willing to surrender to something that\u2019s truly important to us, something that\u2019s truly meaningful to us, and it\u2019ll be different for all of us as well.<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> I, myself, am turning 60 next year. And sometimes I think, gosh, to still be working through some of this stuff, some of these fears from my childhood at this age, really? After all this inner work? And yet in the series A Life of Meaning<\/em>, you normalize that. And I wonder if you can speak to that for people who are like, wow, I\u2019m going back to when I was 10, still?<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

JH:<\/strong> Well, I\u2019m afraid to tell you, it will keep going. Again, Jung spoke to this very articulately when he said, \u201cWe don\u2019t solve these problems, because they\u2019re part of us.\u201d We can\u2019t cut our history out of us like a tumor. He says, \u201cOur task is to outgrow its influence.\u201d That\u2019s the point. You don\u2019t rule out what is wired in you neurologically and in your psyche. You could have a dream tonight of your third grade teacher, someone you haven\u2019t seen or thought of for decades, and yet suddenly there she is in full glory. And you realize everything that\u2019s ever happened to us is somewhere contained and recorded within us and has the potential to be triggered.<\/p>\n

Although that\u2019s true, it\u2019s far superseded by other larger capacities that we all have. And so we don\u2019t solve these things. And if we keep thinking we have to solve them, we\u2019ll be forever thinking of ourselves as failures. You have to say, you recognize it sooner, you get out of it sooner, you lessen the damage this time. And each time, you\u2019ve gained a little more purchase upon your present, conscious life. That\u2019s what he means by outgrowing it.<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> Now just a little bit more on this topic of fear, Jim, because you and I had a conversation about a year ago when you were diagnosed with cancer and were starting to go through these treatments. And I remember in talking with you about it, you seemed very matter-of-fact about it. I didn\u2019t feel like here\u2019s somebody who\u2019s meeting a fear of death in their life as much as someone who\u2019s like, this is the next thing I have to do, and then the next day I\u2019m going to see my clients and I\u2019ll get back to you. It was all very matter-of-fact, and I\u2019d love to understand more about that.<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

JH:<\/strong> Well, I think that\u2019s an accurate description of how I felt and still feel. I had a history of cancer in the family\u2014the entire female side of my family had perished of cancer, including my mother and grandfather and uncle and others. So I\u2019ve always known that was in the genetic load up, it didn\u2019t come as a surprise. But as I said before, I wanted to allocate to it whatever it asks of me in terms of reasonable commitment to the healing process. And I\u2019m grateful to say that to the best of my knowledge, I\u2019m in good shape today, but also to continue my life as fully as I can. Why would I shortchange the life that\u2019s available? It\u2019s always finite, it\u2019s always shorter than we would wish perhaps. And to say, all right, meanwhile, life goes on. Meanwhile, what are you going to do today with your life? Meanwhile, what are your choices about today? You\u2019re not going to let it be defined by this.<\/p>\n

And as far as fear of death itself, my ego\u2019s not keen on the idea, to be sure. On the other hand, I\u2019ve often thought along with Socrates, who said when he was asked almost three millennia ago, reportedly, he said, \u201cEither it\u2019s a big sleep and I can use the rest or there\u2019s another life and it\u2019s beyond my power to imagine it.\u201d Socrates says, \u201cI\u2019d like to look forward to talking to the other philosophers and see what they have to say.\u201d So I think whatever death is, it\u2019s a cessation of the ego\u2019s worries and or it\u2019s a transformation of such proportions that it buggers our imagination. So whatever I think, feel, and believe at this moment literally is rendered irrelevant. And if I remember that I\u2019d think, well, all right, we\u2019ll leave that to the mystery. Won\u2019t we?<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> So you don\u2019t have an utter confidence in continuity, it\u2019s more just an open exploration of the unknown for you?<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

JH:<\/strong> Of course. No, no. I mean, if I knew, I would tell you, right? I don\u2019t.<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> Thank you Jim, friend to friend, yes.<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

JH:<\/strong> Yes. Among friends, people have different opinions, but that\u2019s what they are. That\u2019d be different belief structures. I\u2019m agnostic in the sense that I think it\u2019s a mystery of such magnitude that I don\u2019t presume to comprehend it anymore than I comprehend life. Life itself is a mystery. Why are we here? That\u2019s another mystery. What\u2019s wanting to unfold through us? That\u2019s greater concern than the cessation of this. Because as far as I know, any cessation is going to terminate my daily concerns and worries anyhow.<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> OK, so you\u2019ve said several times this idea, how important it is, what wants to come through you, how life wants to come through you, what wants to be expressed? How do we know when we tune in and we listen that this is what wants to come through us and that this is not an ego agenda of some kind?<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

JH:<\/strong> Well, that\u2019s a very good question. And it\u2019s always a discernment process because many of our decisions that we thought were correct at the time were driven by complexes of one sort or another or by fears. And for me, I\u2019ve always thought of myself, since childhood, as a teacher. When I went into my first classes, I remember thinking, these people are here to help me and they\u2019re teaching me about how to live in a larger way in this world. I don\u2019t know if I would\u2019ve expressed it that way, but that\u2019s what I experienced. And I thought, how marvelous to be that kind of person in your life. So I felt that calling, even in grade school, and that\u2019s what I\u2019ve always done is be a teacher, just in different forums. And so I think for a person, there is such a thing as a calling, and I\u2019m not talking about job here.<\/p>\n

Job is how we pay our bills. A calling is what are you meant to do or be as a person. And part of our calling is to stand in relationship to other people. Part of it is to stand in relationship to nature, part of it is to stand in relationship to what is wanting expression through us. So it\u2019s reasonable to experiment. I\u2019d also liked to make Major League Baseball player when I was a child. I didn\u2019t get the body for that. I\u2019d also liked to be a painter and a musician. I don\u2019t have the talent for that. I have the experiment with that and I learned pretty quickly, that\u2019s not the vehicle for me. So there\u2019s a little trial and error that\u2019s good in life too. But along way, there\u2019s often . . . I mean, how many times have I\u2019ve heard as a therapist: I always wanted to do this. And there\u2019s a but in that sentence, but there was always a reason and many times outer forces at work, yes. Many times an inner reluctance to step up to the challenge, an inner terror of stepping into that largeness. Another question I\u2019ve often asked folks to ask at junctures of decision along the way, does this path enlarge me? Does it diminish me? And we usually know the difference between the two of them and choose the path of enlargement. Not as world sees it, but as it is confirmed within you. That\u2019s the key because always, no matter what I do, all the right things I\u2019m supposed to do will not matter a hill of beans if it doesn\u2019t matter to my own internal life, because that\u2019s where these decision are really being made. That\u2019s why people can follow all their instructions, do all the right things, and then find it is without meaning, without purpose. There\u2019s no energy there anymore.<\/p>\n

That\u2019s what happened to me at midlife. And frankly, I look back upon that now as a good thing that happened, though I didn\u2019t understand it at the time because it said to me, look, your psyche has autonomously withdrawn its approval and support from the places where you want to keep putting the energy. Now, wonder what we could figure out if we begin to pay attention more to what\u2019s going on inside of you? Then we realize there are other initiatives, other forces that wish expression through you. When you have that kind of conversation with your inner reality, then your life becomes richer, even more interesting. Again, this is not about narcissism. This is not about withdrawal from the world, this is about improving the quality of your relationships, the quality of your contributions to the world. But if what we do isn\u2019t rising out of a right relationship to our own in internal life, it\u2019s not going to be right out there in the long run.<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> As we\u2019re talking, Jim, I\u2019m reflecting on how listening to you feels so, I would say, healing for me, balancing for me, resetting for me, something like that. And I think part of the reason\u2014and I just want to share this and also give you the chance to comment on it\u2014is so often in the spiritual journey. In our contemporary world, there\u2019s some notion of arriving somewhere, getting things to be all glittery, shiny without problem. Some notion of it\u2019s all just like bright sunlight if you\u2019re doing it right. And somehow, spending time listening to A Life of Meaning<\/em> for eight plus hours and being with your worldview, helped legitimize a kind of inner wrestling that I often feel in my life that I think I somehow thought was something wrong with me. Like, what are you doing? Why do you always have to wrestle with so much interior sorting, Tami?<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

JH:<\/strong> Well sure, because there\u2019s a divine ferment within your spirit. That\u2019s just what it amounts to. I had a client years ago who said, \u201cI just wish I was a happy carrot.\u201d And I said, \u201cIt\u2019s too late for that, you are not a happy carrot. You\u2019re here as a person for whom life matters. You have questions and if you live your questions, you\u2019re going to have a larger life.\u201d We all, as young people, want answers. We assume there are answers, and we might find answers from time to time, but we often outgrow them or there are answers for a short time only. We have to say, all right, where is life leading me next? That\u2019s the question for me. And what do I need to do to be prepared for that? What work do I have to engage in?<\/p>\n

Because it does take courage, it does take discipline. For example, writing. I have a lot of books and I\u2019m not doing it for money. They don\u2019t make that much money. It\u2019s that something inside of me is wishing expression. And so I\u2019ve been willing to sacrifice an evening of relaxation for sitting at the computer and pounding away. And out of that chemical process, something emerges that feels good, feels right, and that I consider part of vocation. In other words, in your life there is always a question. What is life asking of you next? What matters most to you? What in the end enlarges your journey, brings you into proximity to the mystery of this journey?<\/p>\n

Because in the end, it\u2019s all a mystery. Jung said once, in one of his letters, he said, \u201cLife is a short pause between two great mysteries.\u201d Now it\u2019s very succinct, but that\u2019s as good a definition of life as I can think of, a short pause between two mysteries. And part of the mystery is for us, I think, to render this short pause we call our life as luminous as we can by the powers that we are already given and to somehow respect them enough to serve them.<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> Which is interesting. It\u2019s the final point I want to talk about, this notion of allowing what\u2019s mysterious to be mysterious. I\u2019ve noticed a couple times in my life when I share some deeply mysterious things, people ask me, \u201cWell, how do you explain that?\u201d And things that have happened, like voices I\u2019ve heard of guidance and things like that\u2014and they\u2019re like, \u201cWell, what\u2019s your explanation for that?\u201d And I noticed I felt under pressure to offer an explanation of some kind, and sometimes I\u2019ve even made up explanations, but the truth is I have no idea. I don\u2019t know, but I feel\u2014is that OK? It\u2019s a mystery and you seem very comfortable with that.<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

JH:<\/strong> Well, if I could explain it, it\u2019s not the mystery. Really if it\u2019s something that I don\u2019t know or understand then I\u2019m willing to abide, I can tolerate that in a way I couldn\u2019t have as a young person. I don\u2019t mean I\u2019m passive around it, it makes me all the more curious, but I\u2019m comfortable with mystery because I think the things we can understand are going to be byproducts of where our psyche is at that moment. And tomorrow, I hope we\u2019re going to be in a different place in a larger frame of reference. And it all gets a little confused, a little murky, and to be able to tolerate that and to go with that, I think, is one of the real adventures of life. It\u2019s like being a white water rafter. You are not in charge, you go with the flow of that. But when you do, it\u2019s also exhilarating.<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

TS:<\/strong> I\u2019ve been talking with James Hollis. With Sounds True, he\u2019s created two audio series. They\u2019re both gorgeous. If you ever want to go on a long drive or take a long walk and listen to something that will put you really in touch with your insides, what\u2019s stirring inside of you, I recommend both of these series. The new one is called A Life of Meaning: Exploring Our Deepest Questions and Motivations<\/em>. And then a previous audio series we created with Jim, Through the Dark Wood: Finding Meaning in the Second Half of Life<\/em>. With Sounds True, James Hollis has also written the book Living an Examined Life<\/em> and Living Between Worlds: Finding Personal Resilience in Changing Times<\/em>. Jim, thanks so much for your friendship most of all, for this conversation, and really all the inspiration you give to so many. For all of us, thank you for serving life. Thank you.<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

JH:<\/strong> Thank you, Tami. It\u2019s a privilege to be with you, you always have a great interview with some tough questions, and that\u2019s why I look forward to it.<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

TS: <\/strong>Thank you for listening to Insights at the Edge<\/em>. You can read a full transcript of today\u2019s interview at SoundsTrue.com\/podcast. And if you\u2019re interested, hit the Subscribe button in your podcast app. And also, if you feel inspired, head to iTunes and leave Insights at the Edge <\/em>a review. I love getting your feedback, being in connection with you, and learning how we can continue to evolve and improve our program. Working together, I believe we can create a kinder and wiser world. SoundsTrue.com: waking up the world.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"template":"","meta":{"_expiration-date-status":"","_expiration-date":0,"_expiration-date-type":"","_expiration-date-categories":[],"_expiration-date-options":[]},"class_list":["post-9688","transcript","type-transcript","status-publish","hentry"],"yoast_head":"\nWhat Is Wanting To Find Expression Through You - Transcript<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Read the full transcript from this Sounds True conversation with What Is Wanting To Find Expression Through You. 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