In Conversation: Pema Chödrön and Alice Walker

October 18, 2014

What happens when a beloved spiritual teacher and a brilliant author come together to talk about the most tender, compelling aspects of our human experience? The following exchange, excerpted from Pema Chödrön and Alice Walker in Conversation, offers some unexpected answers—and an introduction to the healing practice that has transformed both women’s hearts and lives.

Alice Walker: About four years ago I was having a very difficult time. I had lost someone I loved deeply and nothing seemed to help. Then a friend sent me a tape set by Pema Chödrön called Awakening Compassion. I stayed in the country and I listened to you, Pema ,every night for the next year. I studied lojong mind training, and I practicedtonglen. It was tonglen, the practice of taking in people’s pain and sending out whatever you have that is positive that helped me through this difficult passage.

I want to thank you so much and to ask you a question. In my experience suffering is perennial; there is always suffering. But does suffering really have a use? I used to think there was no use to it, but now I think that there is.

Pema Chödrön: Is there any use in suffering? I think the reason I am so taken by these teachings is that they are based on using suffering as good medicine. It’s as if there’s a moment of suffering that occurs over and over and over again in every human life. What usually happens in that moment is that it hardens us; it hardens the heart because we don’t want any more pain.

But the lojong teachings say we can take that very moment and flip it. The very thing that causes us to harden and our suffering to intensify can soften us and make us more decent and kinder people. That takes a lot of courage. This is a teaching for people who are willing to cultivate their courage.

What’s wonderful about it is that you have plenty of material to work with. If you’re waiting for only the high points to work with, you might give up, but there’s an endless succession of suffering.

Alice Walker: I was surprised how the heart literally responds to this practice. You can feel it responding physically. As you breathe in what is difficult to bear, there is initial resistance, which is the fear, the constriction. That’s the time when you really have to be brave. But if you keep going and doing the practice, the heart actually relaxes. That is quite amazing to feel.

Pema Chödrön: When we start out on a spiritual path, we often have ideals we think we’re supposed to live up to. We feel we’re supposed to be better than we are in some way. But with this practice you take yourself completely as you are. Then ironically, taking in pain—breathing it in for yourself and all others in the same boat as you are—heightens your awareness of exactly where you’re stuck. Instead of feeling you need some magic makeover so you can suddenly become some great person, there’s much more emotional honesty about where you’re stuck.

Alice Walker: I remember the day I really got it that we’re not connected as human beings because of our perfection, but because of our flaws. That was such a relief.

Pema Chödrön: Rumi wrote a poem called “Night Travelers.” It’s about how all the darkness of human beings is a shared thing from the beginning of time, and how understanding that opens up your heart and opens up your world. You begin to think bigger. Rather than depressing you, it makes you feel part of the whole.

Alice Walker: … Everybody is in that boat sooner or later, in one form or other. It’s good to feel that you’re not alone.

Pema Chödrön: I want to ask you about joy. It’s all very well to talk about breathing in the suffering and sending out relief and so forth, but did you find any joy coming out of this practice?

Alice Walker: Oh, yes! Even just not being so miserable. Part of the joyousness was knowing we have help. It was great to know that this wisdom is so old. That means people have had this pain for a long time; they’ve been dealing with it, and they had the foresight to leave these practices for us to use. I’m always supported by spirits and ancestors and people in my tribe, whomever they’ve been and however long ago they lived. So it was like having another tribe of people, of ancestors, come to the rescue with this wisdom that came through you and your way of teaching.

Pema Chödrön: I think the times are ripe for this kind of teaching.

Alice Walker: Oh, I think it’s just the right medicine for today. You know, the other really joyous thing is that I feel more open, I feel more openness toward people in my world. It’s what you have said about feeling more at home in your world. I think this is the result of going the distance in your own heart—really being disciplined about opening your heart as much as you can.

pemaalice

Alice Walker

Photo of ()\

Winner of both the Pulitzer Prize and the American Book Award in 1983, Alice Walker is recognized as one of the major writers of our time. Her novels include The Third Life of Grange Copeland; Meridian; The Temple of My Familiar; and Possessing the Secret of Joy. The Color Purple spent more than a year on the New York Times bestseller list and was made into a film directed by Steven Spielberg. An essayist, poet, short story writer, and children's book author, Alice Walker has taught at Wellesley College, Brown, Sarah Lawrence College, and Harvard, and was an associate professor of English at Yale.

Author photo © ScottCampbell-2017

Pema Chödrön

Pema Chödrön is a well-known and beloved American-born Buddhist nun and author of many spiritual classics. She serves as the resident teacher at Gampo Abbey Monastery in Nova Scotia and is a student of Dzigar Kongtrul Rinpoche and the late Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche. For more information, including a list of her published works, visit pemachodronfoundation.org.

Author photo © Christine Alicino

Also By Author

Led by Spirit

Alice Walker is a poet, essayist, and New York Times-bestselling author who has won both the Pulitzer Prize and National Book Award. With Sounds True, Alice has released the audio program My Life As My Self, which vividly recounts her personal, professional, and spiritual journeys. In this episode of Insights at the Edge, Alice and Tami Simon speak on what it means to step into the line of fire and receive criticism for what one believes. In this vein, Alice explains her role as an activist in locations such as Gaza and the Congo—and how standing up for one’s principles brings an ineffable lightness to the heart. Finally, Alice and Tami discuss stepping into the role of a societal elder and why it is imperative that we reconnect with the whole of the Earth. (55 minutes)

In Conversation: Pema Chödrön and Alice Walker

What happens when a beloved spiritual teacher and a brilliant author come together to talk about the most tender, compelling aspects of our human experience? The following exchange, excerpted from Pema Chödrön and Alice Walker in Conversation, offers some unexpected answers—and an introduction to the healing practice that has transformed both women’s hearts and lives.

Alice Walker: About four years ago I was having a very difficult time. I had lost someone I loved deeply and nothing seemed to help. Then a friend sent me a tape set by Pema Chödrön called Awakening Compassion. I stayed in the country and I listened to you, Pema ,every night for the next year. I studied lojong mind training, and I practicedtonglen. It was tonglen, the practice of taking in people’s pain and sending out whatever you have that is positive that helped me through this difficult passage.

I want to thank you so much and to ask you a question. In my experience suffering is perennial; there is always suffering. But does suffering really have a use? I used to think there was no use to it, but now I think that there is.

Pema Chödrön: Is there any use in suffering? I think the reason I am so taken by these teachings is that they are based on using suffering as good medicine. It’s as if there’s a moment of suffering that occurs over and over and over again in every human life. What usually happens in that moment is that it hardens us; it hardens the heart because we don’t want any more pain.

But the lojong teachings say we can take that very moment and flip it. The very thing that causes us to harden and our suffering to intensify can soften us and make us more decent and kinder people. That takes a lot of courage. This is a teaching for people who are willing to cultivate their courage.

What’s wonderful about it is that you have plenty of material to work with. If you’re waiting for only the high points to work with, you might give up, but there’s an endless succession of suffering.

Alice Walker: I was surprised how the heart literally responds to this practice. You can feel it responding physically. As you breathe in what is difficult to bear, there is initial resistance, which is the fear, the constriction. That’s the time when you really have to be brave. But if you keep going and doing the practice, the heart actually relaxes. That is quite amazing to feel.

Pema Chödrön: When we start out on a spiritual path, we often have ideals we think we’re supposed to live up to. We feel we’re supposed to be better than we are in some way. But with this practice you take yourself completely as you are. Then ironically, taking in pain—breathing it in for yourself and all others in the same boat as you are—heightens your awareness of exactly where you’re stuck. Instead of feeling you need some magic makeover so you can suddenly become some great person, there’s much more emotional honesty about where you’re stuck.

Alice Walker: I remember the day I really got it that we’re not connected as human beings because of our perfection, but because of our flaws. That was such a relief.

Pema Chödrön: Rumi wrote a poem called “Night Travelers.” It’s about how all the darkness of human beings is a shared thing from the beginning of time, and how understanding that opens up your heart and opens up your world. You begin to think bigger. Rather than depressing you, it makes you feel part of the whole.

Alice Walker: … Everybody is in that boat sooner or later, in one form or other. It’s good to feel that you’re not alone.

Pema Chödrön: I want to ask you about joy. It’s all very well to talk about breathing in the suffering and sending out relief and so forth, but did you find any joy coming out of this practice?

Alice Walker: Oh, yes! Even just not being so miserable. Part of the joyousness was knowing we have help. It was great to know that this wisdom is so old. That means people have had this pain for a long time; they’ve been dealing with it, and they had the foresight to leave these practices for us to use. I’m always supported by spirits and ancestors and people in my tribe, whomever they’ve been and however long ago they lived. So it was like having another tribe of people, of ancestors, come to the rescue with this wisdom that came through you and your way of teaching.

Pema Chödrön: I think the times are ripe for this kind of teaching.

Alice Walker: Oh, I think it’s just the right medicine for today. You know, the other really joyous thing is that I feel more open, I feel more openness toward people in my world. It’s what you have said about feeling more at home in your world. I think this is the result of going the distance in your own heart—really being disciplined about opening your heart as much as you can.

pemaalice

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  • Healing Approach: Awareness becomes effective when paired with pacing, care, and nervous system support

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What Is Trauma Sensitive Mindfulness and How It Differs from Traditional Mindfulness

Trauma sensitive mindfulness begins with a simple truth. The present moment does not feel safe for everyone. Turning inward can bring up intense sensations or emotions, and traditional mindfulness does not always account for how trauma shapes this experience.

This approach offers a gentler entry point. It considers how the body responds before asking it to be still. Instead of pushing through discomfort, it allows for choice, movement, and grounding.

Mindfulness then becomes less about doing it right and more about building a relationship with our experience. We learn to notice what feels supportive, pause when needed, and meet ourselves with care.

Elizabeth Stanley’s Approach to Trauma Sensitive Mindfulness and Healing

Elizabeth Stanley’s work brings clarity to why trauma sensitive mindfulness matters and how it can be practiced in a way that truly supports healing. Her perspective is grounded in both research and lived experience, creating a bridge between science and personal transformation.

Her Background in Trauma and Resilience

Stanley’s background includes years of studying resilience under extreme stress, alongside her own journey through trauma recovery. She emphasizes that resilience is not simply about mental strength. It is about the capacity of the nervous system to return to balance after disruption.

Through trauma sensitive mindfulness, she highlights how this capacity can be strengthened over time. The practice becomes less about observing thoughts and more about learning how to stay connected to the body without becoming overwhelmed.

The Limits of Traditional Mindfulness Practices

In her teaching, Stanley also speaks to the limitations of traditional mindfulness approaches. Many practices assume that the body can tolerate sustained attention. For someone carrying unresolved trauma, that assumption may not hold true.

Trauma sensitive mindfulness acknowledges that awareness alone is not always enough. Without support, attention can amplify distress rather than ease it. By integrating regulation and pacing, this approach creates a more supportive path that allows mindfulness to unfold gradually.

Why Trauma Sensitive Mindfulness Changes the Way We Practice Meditation

When we begin to understand mindfulness through the lens of trauma sensitivity, the practice itself starts to shift. Meditation is no longer about holding attention in one place at all costs. It becomes a responsive and adaptive experience.

Meditation Through the Lens of Trauma Sensitivity

In trauma sensitive mindfulness, meditation can include a wide range of options. A person might keep their eyes open, shift their focus between internal and external awareness, or engage in gentle movement. These choices are not distractions from the practice. They are part of the practice.

This flexibility helps create a sense of stability. It allows the practitioner to remain engaged without pushing beyond their capacity.

Creating Safety Within the Practice

Safety is not treated as an outcome. It is the foundation. Trauma sensitive mindfulness invites us to notice when something feels supportive and when it does not. That noticing becomes a form of guidance.

Over time, this builds trust. The practitioner begins to feel that they can stay present without losing themselves in the experience. Meditation then becomes a space where healing can happen at a natural pace.

When Trauma Sensitive Mindfulness Is Needed Beyond Standard Meditation

There are times when traditional mindfulness practices may not provide the support someone needs. Trauma sensitive mindfulness helps us recognize those moments with clarity and care.

Recognizing Signs That Mindfulness Alone Is Not Enough

Some people notice that meditation brings up anxiety, numbness, or a sense of disconnection. Others may feel flooded by emotion or unable to stay grounded. These experiences are not signs of failure. They are signals from the nervous system.

Trauma sensitive mindfulness encourages us to respond to these signals rather than push through them.

Expanding Beyond Stillness Into Regulation

In these moments, the practice may shift. Instead of remaining still, a person might focus on their surroundings, engage in movement, or connect with a steady rhythm like walking or breathing with sound.

These forms of regulation help restore balance. They create a pathway back to presence that feels supportive rather than overwhelming.

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The Role of the Nervous System in Trauma Sensitive Mindfulness Practice

Trauma sensitive mindfulness recognizes that the nervous system plays a central role in how we experience awareness. Before we can rest in presence, the body needs to sense that it is safe enough to do so.

  • The nervous system constantly interprets signals of safety and threat, often outside of conscious awareness
  • Trauma can leave the body in patterns of activation or shutdown that shape how mindfulness feels
  • Trauma sensitive mindfulness introduces gentle ways to support regulation before deep attention is invited
  • Small moments of ease help the nervous system learn that presence can be safe
  • Choice allows the practitioner to stay connected without feeling trapped in the experience

As these patterns begin to shift, mindfulness becomes more accessible. The body no longer experiences awareness as something to defend against. Instead, it becomes a place where steadiness can grow.

How to Practice Trauma Sensitive Mindfulness Safely and Effectively

Practicing trauma sensitive mindfulness begins with a willingness to move at the pace of the body. There is no need to force stillness or sustain attention beyond what feels manageable. Instead, we begin by noticing what feels supportive in the moment.

This might include grounding attention in the senses, feeling the contact of the body with a chair, or simply noticing the environment. At times, it may mean stepping away from internal awareness and focusing outward. These choices are not interruptions. They are expressions of care.

Over time, this approach builds a sense of trust. The practitioner learns that they can engage with mindfulness without becoming overwhelmed. Safety becomes something that is felt, not something that is assumed. From this foundation, awareness can deepen in a way that feels steady and sustainable.

Bringing Trauma Sensitive Mindfulness into Daily Life and Relationships

Trauma sensitive mindfulness does not remain confined to formal practice. It naturally extends into daily life. It can be present in the way we pause before responding, in how we notice tension in the body, or in the decision to take a moment of rest.

In relationships, this awareness can create space. Instead of reacting automatically, we begin to sense what is happening within us. This allows for more thoughtful responses and a greater sense of connection.

These small moments matter. They reflect a shift from striving to be present toward allowing presence to emerge. In this way, mindfulness becomes integrated into the rhythm of everyday life.

Building Resilience Through Trauma Sensitive Mindfulness Over Time

Resilience develops gradually. It is shaped through repeated experiences of safety, awareness, and regulation. Trauma sensitive mindfulness supports this process by honoring the body’s natural pace.

Each moment of grounded awareness strengthens the nervous system’s capacity to remain present. Over time, this creates a sense of stability that can hold a wider range of experiences.

This path is not about reaching a fixed state. It is about developing a relationship with ourselves that is steady, responsive, and compassionate. Through trauma sensitive mindfulness, we begin to discover that presence is not something we force. It is something that becomes possible as the body learns it is safe to be here.

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Final Thoughts

Trauma sensitive mindfulness invites a more compassionate way of being present. Rather than pushing through discomfort, it encourages us to listen to the body and move at a pace that feels supportive.

Elizabeth Stanley’s insights remind us that awareness and regulation go hand in hand. As we honor both, mindfulness becomes a steady, healing practice that meets us exactly where we are.

Frequently Asked Questions About Trauma Sensitive Mindfulness

What makes trauma sensitive mindfulness different from trauma informed care?

Trauma sensitive mindfulness is a specific approach within the broader framework of trauma informed care. While trauma informed care can apply to many fields, such as healthcare or education, trauma sensitive mindfulness focuses directly on how mindfulness practices are adapted to support nervous system safety and regulation.

Can trauma sensitive mindfulness be practiced without a teacher?

Yes, it can be practiced individually, especially with gentle awareness and self-guided pacing. However, some people benefit from working with a trained practitioner who understands trauma and can offer guidance when difficult experiences arise.

Is trauma sensitive mindfulness suitable for beginners?

Yes, it is often more accessible for beginners because it emphasizes choice and flexibility. Instead of requiring strict focus, it allows people to ease into awareness in a way that feels manageable.

How long does it take to see benefits from trauma sensitive mindfulness?

The experience varies from person to person. Some may notice small shifts in awareness and calm within a short time, while bigger changes in resilience and regulation tend to develop gradually through consistent practice.

Can trauma sensitive mindfulness replace therapy?

It is not a replacement for therapy, especially for those working through significant trauma. It can be a supportive complement to therapeutic work, helping individuals build awareness and regulation skills alongside professional support.

What types of practices are included in trauma sensitive mindfulness?

Practices may include grounding exercises, sensory awareness, gentle movement, and flexible attention techniques. The focus is on what supports stability rather than following a fixed method.

How does trauma sensitive mindfulness support physical well-being?

By helping regulate the nervous system, this approach can reduce chronic stress responses in the body. Over time, this may support improved sleep, reduced tension, and a greater sense of ease.

Is it normal to feel discomfort during trauma sensitive mindfulness?

Some discomfort can arise, especially when becoming more aware of internal experiences. The key difference is that this approach encourages responding to discomfort with care, rather than pushing through it.

Can trauma sensitive mindfulness be practiced in short moments?

Yes, it is well suited for brief, everyday moments. Even a few seconds of grounding or awareness can support regulation and help build consistency over time.

Who can benefit most from trauma sensitive mindfulness?

Anyone can benefit, but it is especially supportive for individuals who find traditional meditation challenging or overwhelming. It offers an alternative path that honors personal capacity.

Michelle Cassandra Johnson is an author, activist, spiritual teacher, racial equity consultant, and intuitive healer. She is the author of six books, including Skill in Action and Finding Refuge. Amy Burtaine is a leadership coach and racial equity trainer. With Robin DiAngelo, she is the coauthor of The Facilitator's Guide for White Affinity Groups. For more, visit https://www.michellecjohnson.com/wisdom-of-the-hive.

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