Robin Wall Kimmerer

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Tami Simon

Tami Simon started Sounds True at the age of 22 with a dream and a tape recorder. Though she had no experience running a business and only a vague idea of what she wanted the company to be, Tami had her guiding principle strongly in place: to disseminate spiritual wisdom. Over its 36-year history, Sounds True has grown into a multimedia publisher that has produced over 6,000 titles, has been included twice in the Inc. 500 list of the fastest-growing companies, and is North America’s leading publisher of spoken-word spiritual teachings.

One of the world’s very first organizations to focus on multiple bottom lines as part of its founding mandate, Sounds True has expanded steadily over the years while staying true to its original mission. Partnering with the leading spiritual teachers of our time, Sounds True now has a successful book publishing program (distributed by Macmillan) and has grown to produce events, certification programs, and transformational online learning experiences.

Tami hosts the popular Sounds True podcast, Insights at the Edge, which has now been downloaded more than 20 million times. She is also the founder of the Sounds True Foundation, which is dedicated to bringing spiritual education to people who would otherwise not have access. She lives in Boulder, Colorado, and in British Columbia with her wife, Julie Kramer, and their two spoodles, Raspberry and Bula.

Author photo © Jason Elias

Also By Author

The Point of Insight | Giving Back

What happens when a book doesn’t just inform you, but transmits something to you?

Welcome to The Point of Insight, a new monthly segment of Insights at the Edge where Tami Simon speaks directly to listeners about an insight that has stayed with her, often sparked by a conversation from the show’s archive. In this first episode, Tami reflects on preparing to interview ethnobotanist and Braiding Sweetgrass author Robin Wall Kimmerer, a member of the Citizen Potawatomi Nation. While reading Kimmerer’s work, Tami describes receiving what she calls a transmission, a sudden, embodied recognition of how generously the natural world gives to us, and how rarely we pause to receive it.

Join Tami to explore:

  • What a transmission is, drawn from her background in meditation and Tibetan Buddhist teachings
  • The point of reciprocity—what shifts when we truly feel how much the natural world gives us
  • Why gratitude naturally moves us toward wanting to give something back
  • A story from teacher Malidoma Somé about speaking directly to the trees
  • What it means to move from an extractive mindset to one of recognition and care toward the living world around us

This is an intimate, unscripted reflection, not a scripted teaching, but Tami thinking out loud about a moment that changed her, and an invitation for you to notice what the natural world may be offering you, too.

Listen now, and consider: what is being given to you, and what might you give back?

Find the original interview with Robin Wall Kimmerer here. 

Robin Wall Kimmerer: What Does the Earth Ask of You To...


Something shifts when you encounter Robin Wall Kimmerer’s work. The food in your bowl starts to look different. The tree at the corner of your block becomes something more than scenery. The world, quite suddenly, feels alive with relationship.

This is how her writing impacted Tami, and this week Tami and Robin—botanist, MacArthur Fellow, National Humanities Medal recipient, enrolled member of the Citizen Potawatomi Nation, and author of the beloved Braiding Sweetgrass—talk about what it means to move through the world not as a consumer of natural resources, but as a participant in a web of living gifts.

Join Tami and Robin to explore:

  • Why Robin calls this moment in history “the Age of Remembering”—and what humanity is being called to reclaim
  • The profound difference between a commodity and a gift, and how that shift in perception changes everything
  • Brain chauvinism—why we’ve dismissed the intelligence of plants, rocks, and the more-than-human world, and what science is now revealing
  • The landmark sweetgrass experiment that proved humans can be partners to plants, not just threats
  • How to practice reciprocity with the earth, from small daily acts to systemic advocacy
  • Plant Baby Plant—Robin’s new movement offering a counter-narrative to extraction culture
  • How to hold grief, outrage, and love for the living world simultaneously—without surrendering to despair

In a time when the relationship between humans and the earth feels broken, Robin Wall Kimmerer offers something rare: a vision of healing rooted in science, indigenous wisdom, and the simple, radical act of giving your gifts back to the world.

Learn more about Robin Wall Kimmerer:
robinwallkimmerer.com
https://www.instagram.com/robinwallkimmerer/
plantbabyplant.com

This conversation offers genuine transmission—not just concepts about awakening, but the palpable presence of realized teachers exploring the growing edge of spiritual understanding together. Originally aired on Sounds True One.

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Tracee Stanley: What We Need in These Threshold Times

What if the antidote to a world coming apart isn’t a bigger plan, but a smaller, daily act of devotion?

This week, Tami Simon speaks with Tracee Stanley—teacher of yoga nidra, meditation, and self-inquiry, founder of Empowered Life Circle, and author of the new Sounds True book Living Ritual: Infuse Each Day with Purpose and Spirit—about why ritual may be the most important practice we have during what she calls threshold times.

Join Tami and Tracee to explore:

  • The threshold question at the heart of ritual: what within me is dying, and what is waiting to be born?
  • Why devotion, not discipline, is the doorway—and how to weave practice through an ordinary householder’s day without shame
  • Tracee’s shard of light in Cape Town, and the years it took to find language for it
  • The body as shrine: the origins of yoga nidra in nyasa, the ancient practice of anointing the body as a divine temple
  • Earth dreaming—lying on the land and letting the land dream through you
  • Her reframe of the four Purusharthas, turning prosperity into support and pleasure into relationship
  • Sankalpa as a vow that leads to dharma, not a manifestation wish list
  • The analog cocoon and the night school: reclaiming sleep and dream time from the phone
  • Why enlightenment may be less a permanent state than a moment available in the space between two breaths

Tracee also speaks candidly about walking away from a successful film career, and what a surgery taught her about the ego that refuses to let the body rest.

Tracee opens and closes this interview with a short guided ritual you can practice along with.

Listen now, and let something be reshaped. →

This conversation offers genuine transmission, not just concepts about awakening, but the palpable presence of realized teachers exploring the growing edge of spiritual understanding together, and it originally aired on Sounds True One.

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Reverend angel Kyodo williams: Warrior Spirit

Most people come to meditation looking for a break, a few quiet minutes away from a world that rarely slows down on its own. Reverend angel Kyodo williams spends much of this conversation gently taking apart that assumption, suggesting that real stillness was never about leaving the world behind at all. It’s a small shift in framing that ends up changing everything about how the rest of her teaching lands.

Rev. angel is an ordained Zen priest, activist, and founder of the Center for Transformative Change, recognized as the world’s second female Zen teacher of African descent and the author of Being Black and Radical Dharma. 

Sounds True has featured her teaching across our Meditation Summit and A Year of Mindfulness precisely because she refuses to separate inner practice from outer justice, treating the two as a single continuous act rather than competing priorities. What follows traces her case for a warrior spirit built on presence rather than escape, and the meditation practice she offers as its foundation.

Key Takeaways:

  • Retreat Isn’t the Goal: Learn why angel Kyodo williams reframes meditation as engagement, not escape.
  • Effort Meets Release: Understand the meditation practice she developed for people doing social change work.
  • A Different Kind of Fearlessness: See what warrior spirit means when it’s rooted in love rather than force.

Retreat Is Not What It Looks Like From Outside

Rev. angel opens by naming something many practitioners feel but rarely say aloud: the pull toward meditation often comes wrapped in a longing to retreat from an overwhelming world. She doesn’t dismiss that longing, but she does redirect it, suggesting that genuine practice engages our inner fullness rather than fleeing from outer noise. What looks like withdrawal from the outside, she argues, is closer to a deepening than a departure, a distinction that reframes the entire purpose of sitting down to practice in the first place.

Learn Practices for Self-Compassion with Sounds True.

Effort and Release Meditation: A Practice Born From Movement Work

Rev. angel developed a specific meditation practice she calls Effort and Release after years spent working alongside people doing demanding social change work. The practice blends deliberate effort with intentional letting go, addressing a pattern she noticed constantly among activists and organizers: a strong pull toward doing, accomplishing, and pushing that rarely leaves room for rest. She describes meditation and social change as inseparable, since the way a person relates to their own mind directly shapes what they find themselves willing to engage with in the wider world.

  • Naming the Pattern: Many changemakers carry a constant urgency that outlasts any single campaign, even during rest.
  • Effort With Purpose: The practice doesn’t reject action, only unconscious, exhausting overdrive.
  • Release as Skill: Letting go is treated as an active discipline, not passive collapse or avoidance.

Hear the complete teaching in her episode, Reverend angel Kyodo williams: Warrior Spirit

Inner Life and Outer World as One Continuous Fabric

A central thread running through Rev. Angel’s teaching rejects any hard line between internal awareness and external action. She describes our self-talk, the noise level of our minds, and our capacity for presence as directly shaping how we show up for others and what we find acceptable in the wider world. This isn’t a metaphor for her; it’s closer to a working principle behind everything she teaches, from meditation instruction to movement strategy. 

What we tolerate in the world outside us, she suggests, tends to trace directly back to what we’ve grown accustomed to tolerating within our own minds first, which is why she treats internal clarity as a precondition for meaningful external change rather than a separate, optional pursuit.

Warrior Spirit Rooted in Fearlessness, Not Force

The phrase “warrior spirit,” drawn from her earlier book Being Black, describes something quite different from combativeness or aggression directed outward at the world. For Rev. Angel, this spirit is built on truth-telling and responsibility, a foundation for genuine happiness rather than a posture of defensiveness. It asks practitioners to stay engaged with difficulty, including the difficulty of racism, patriarchy, and other inherited harms, rather than looking away or numbing out. This framing has resonated widely since the book’s original publication, offering readers across many backgrounds a way to hold fearlessness and tenderness together rather than treating them as opposites.

  • Truth Before Comfort: Warrior spirit requires naming what’s actually happening, even when it’s unwelcome.
  • Grace Alongside Fearlessness: Strength and tenderness are treated as complementary, not opposites.
  • Responsibility as Practice: Taking ownership of one’s own patterns becomes part of the discipline itself.

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Bridging Personal Transformation and Collective Justice

Rev. angel has spent more than fifteen years shaping what she calls Transformative Social Change, a field built on the belief that lasting justice work requires equally serious inner work. She resists treating meditation as a private escape hatch separate from activism, instead framing contemplative practice as fuel for sustained, clear-eyed engagement with collective harm. Burnout among organizers, in her view, often stems from skipping this inner dimension entirely, treating stillness as optional rather than structural to the work itself. She has described this field as one she helped name and shape, watching it grow from a personal conviction into a recognized approach embraced across activist and spiritual communities alike.

What Radical Dharma Adds to This Conversation

Rev. Angel’s later book, Radical Dharma, co-written with Lama Rod Owens and Jasmine Syedullah, extends this same warrior spirit into a direct examination of race, love, and liberation within Buddhist communities themselves. The book argues that spiritual communities are not exempt from the patterns of harm found elsewhere in society, and that genuine awakening has to include an honest reckoning with those patterns rather than a spiritual bypass around them. This willingness to hold institutions, including her own tradition, accountable runs consistently through everything she teaches, from her earliest writing through her more recent contributions to Sounds True’s programming.

Awaken Your Inner Healing Power

Final Thoughts

Reverend angel Kyodo williams doesn’t offer meditation as a rest stop from the world’s demands. She offers it as a training ground for staying present with those demands without losing ourselves inside them. That distinction, subtle but significant, may be exactly what separates spiritual bypass from spiritual maturity, and it’s the thread that ties her meditation teaching to her justice work without contradiction. Listeners who come looking for a quick escape often leave with something more durable instead: a practice for staying rooted precisely where things are hardest. 

Sounds True continues sharing her teaching because our mission to wake up the world has never meant looking away from what’s hardest to face, and few teachers hold that tension as steadily as she does. Her books and audio programs remain in our library for anyone ready to bring the same steadiness into their own life and work.

Frequently Asked Questions About angel Kyodo williams

Who is Reverend angel Kyodo williams?

She is an ordained Zen priest, activist, author, and founder of the Center for Transformative Change.

What books has she written?

Her books include Being Black: Zen and the Art of Living with Fearlessness and Grace and Radical Dharma.

What is the Effort and Release practice?

A meditation method blending deliberate effort with intentional letting go, developed for activists and organizers.

Is this teaching only relevant to activists?

No, her ideas on presence and inner work apply to anyone navigating stress, urgency, or burnout in daily life.

What does warrior spirit mean in her teaching?

A fearless, truth-telling posture grounded in responsibility and grace, not aggression or combativeness.

Has Sounds True featured her in other programs?

Yes, she has appeared in Sounds True’s Meditation Summit and A Year of Mindfulness series.

What is the Center for Transformative Change?

An organization she founded connecting inner personal work with large-scale social transformation.

Where can I hear more conversations like this one?

Explore our Insights at the Edge Podcast for further interviews on mindfulness, justice, and social engagement.

Michelle Cassandra Johnson is an author, activist, spiritual teacher, racial equity consultant, and intuitive healer. She is the author of six books, including Skill in Action and Finding Refuge. Amy Burtaine is a leadership coach and racial equity trainer. With Robin DiAngelo, she is the coauthor of The Facilitator's Guide for White Affinity Groups. For more, visit https://www.michellecjohnson.com/wisdom-of-the-hive.

Stephen Cope: Finding Your True Calling

Somewhere between a job that pays the bills and a life that feels genuinely lived sits a question most people spend decades avoiding: what is this all actually for? Stephen Cope has spent his career sitting with exactly that question, drawing on both contemporary psychology and one of the oldest texts in the yogic tradition to answer it. His answer, notably, refuses the comfortable vagueness that so much popular advice on purpose tends to settle for.

Cope is a scholar emeritus at the Kripalu Center for Yoga and Health and former director of the Kripalu Institute for Extraordinary Living, the largest yoga research institute in the Western world, working alongside scientists affiliated with Harvard Medical School. He is the bestselling author of The Wisdom of Yoga and The Great Work of Your Life, and with Sounds True, he created an eight-week course called Your True Calling. Sounds True has carried Cope’s work for years because his teaching sits squarely at the intersection of yoga and vocation, bridging rigorous scholarship and genuinely lived practice, exactly the combination our founder believed spiritual wisdom needed when Sounds True began in 1985.

In this piece, we look at what dharma actually means in Cope’s framework, why precision matters more than effort alone, and how the Bhagavad Gita still speaks directly to anyone quietly wondering if they’ve missed their own path.

Key Takeaways:

  • Dharma Has Precision: Learn why Stephen Cope insists that missing your calling by an inch is the same as missing it by a mile.
  • Subtraction Comes First: Understand why deciding what not to do matters as much as deciding what to pursue.
  • The Gita as a Modern Guide: See how an ancient parable still maps directly onto contemporary struggles with purpose.

Find Teachings that Speak to You With Sounds True.

Dharma: Purpose With Precision, Not Just Passion

Cope centers his teaching on dharma, a concept he defines as considerably more exact than the vague modern language of finding your passion.” His well-known line, that missing your calling by an inch is the same as missing it by a mile, captures something most self-help framing misses entirely: dharma isn’t a general direction; it’s a specific fit between a person’s gifts and the world’s genuine need for them. This precision can feel uncomfortable at first, since it leaves little room for the comfortable ambiguity many people prefer when talking about purpose, and it forces a much more honest inventory of what a person actually has to offer.

  • Not Vague Enthusiasm: Dharma requires a real match between innate gift and actual application.
  • Precision Over Proximity: Close alignment still counts as missing the mark in Cope’s framework.
  • A Path, Not a Feeling: Dharma is something lived and practiced, not simply felt once and confirmed.

The Bhagavad Gita as a Living Map

Cope draws heavily on the Bhagavad Gita, using the ancient warrior Arjuna’s crisis on the battlefield as a template for the very real paralysis many people feel when facing the direction of their own lives. Arjuna’s hesitation, caught between duty and doubt, becomes in Cope’s reading a stand-in for anyone stuck at a genuine crossroads, unsure whether to trust their gifts or retreat into safer, more familiar roles. What makes this ancient parable so enduring, Cope suggests, is that the core dilemma hasn’t actually changed much over thousands of years, only its modern packaging has, whether that shows up as a career change, a creative risk, or a quiet midlife reckoning.

  • Duty Versus Doubt: Arjuna’s paralysis mirrors the hesitation many feel before committing fully to a path.
  • An Old Text, A Current Struggle: The specific circumstances differ, but the underlying crisis of nerve repeats.
  • Guidance, Not Escape: The Gita offers a framework for engaging the crisis, not avoiding it.

Deciding What Not to Do

One of the more counterintuitive pieces of Cope’s teaching is his emphasis on subtraction. Before a person can bring their true gifts fully into the world, Cope argues, they usually need to consciously decide what they will stop doing, the obligations, distractions, and half-hearted commitments that quietly crowd out the work that actually matters. This isn’t framed as minimalism for its own sake; it’s framed as a necessary clearing, since a life spread too thin rarely has room left for genuine mastery. 

Cope walks through this idea in detail in Stephen Cope: Finding Your True Calling, where he suggests most people intuitively know what needs to go long before they’re willing to actually let it go, which is often the harder half of the work, requiring more courage than the initial act of choosing a direction ever did.

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Riding the Wave: Meeting Emotion Instead of Managing It

Cope also teaches a process he calls riding the wave, a way of leaning fully into emotional experience rather than suppressing or intellectualizing it. This practice connects directly to his broader dharma teaching, since he suggests that avoiding emotion often becomes exactly the static that drowns out a person’s clearer sense of calling. 

Learning to stay present with difficult feelings, in his framework, isn’t separate from finding purpose. It’s part of the same discipline. Cope draws this connection from years of observing that clients who avoid strong emotion tend to also stay vague about their life’s direction, as if the two avoidances share a common root, each reinforcing the other over time.

Becoming a Warrior for Your Own Gifts

Toward the end of this conversation, Cope and Tami discuss what it means to become a warrior in service of one’s calling, not a combative stance, but a willingness to bring one’s full skill to a world that genuinely needs it. This reframes purpose away from private fulfillment alone and toward something closer to responsibility, the sense that withholding a genuine gift has consequences beyond the person holding it back. Cope suggests this warrior stance requires a kind of courage rarely discussed in conventional purpose-finding advice, the courage to be seen fully practicing a gift before it feels polished or guaranteed to succeed.

Center Yourself With Meditative Teachings by Sounds True

Final Thoughts

Stephen Cope doesn’t offer calling as something discovered once in a flash of clarity and never questioned again. It’s closer to a discipline requiring precision, subtraction, and an ongoing willingness to meet whatever emotion the path stirs up along the way. What makes his teaching endure, perhaps, is his refusal to romanticize the process; dharma, in his framework, demands real rigor, not simply good intentions. 

Sounds True continues sharing this conversation because helping people live their dharma more fully is, in many ways, exactly what waking up the world has always meant to us. If Cope’s teaching resonated, his books and eight-week course carry the work considerably further.

Frequently Asked Questions About Stephen Cope

Who is Stephen Cope?

He is a scholar emeritus at Kripalu and the bestselling author of The Wisdom of Yoga and The Great Work of Your Life.

What does Cope mean by dharma?

A precise alignment between a person’s innate gifts and the world’s genuine need for them.

What ancient text does Cope draw from most?

He draws heavily on the Bhagavad Gita, using Arjuna’s crisis as a template for finding purpose.

What is Your True Calling?

An eight-week online course Cope created with Sounds True focused on discovering one’s dharma.

Is riding the wave a therapy technique?

It’s a practice Cope teaches for staying present with emotion rather than suppressing or avoiding it.

Where can I listen to the full conversation?

The complete episode, “Stephen Cope: Finding Your True Calling,” is available on Sounds True.

Is this teaching only relevant to yoga practitioners?

No, Cope’s ideas on purpose and dharma apply broadly, regardless of any formal yoga background.

Does Sounds True offer other content by Stephen Cope?

Yes, Sounds True has published several of his books and courses on yoga, purpose, and psychological health.

Michelle Cassandra Johnson is an author, activist, spiritual teacher, racial equity consultant, and intuitive healer. She is the author of six books, including Skill in Action and Finding Refuge. Amy Burtaine is a leadership coach and racial equity trainer. With Robin DiAngelo, she is the coauthor of The Facilitator's Guide for White Affinity Groups. For more, visit https://www.michellecjohnson.com/wisdom-of-the-hive.