Mark Nepo: Holding Nothing Back

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August 29, 2016

Mark Nepo: Holding Nothing Back

Mark Nepo August 29, 2016

Mark Nepo is a poet, philosopher, and spiritual teacher who is the author of numerous books and audio projects, including the New York Times #1 bestseller The Book of Awakening, which made the list of Oprah’s Ultimate Favorite Things. With Sounds True, Mark has published many books and audio courses, including Inside the Miracle: Enduring Suffering, Approaching Wholeness. In this episode of Insights at the Edge, Tami Simon has an intimate conversation with Mark about the two most important lessons he has learned from his journey with cancer, the role of effort and grace in our lives, what it means to take “the exquisite risk,” and how we can shift our perspective to see with the eyes of the heart.
(73 minutes)

Mark Nepo is a poet and philosopher who has taught in the fields of poetry and spirituality for over 40 years. A New York Times #1 bestselling author, he has published 21 books and recorded 14 audio projects. Mark has been interviewed several times by Oprah Winfrey as part of her Super Soul Sunday TV show, and was interviewed by Robin Roberts on Good Morning America. As a cancer survivor, Mark devotes his writing and teaching to the journey of inner transformation and the life of relationship. His work has been translated into more than 20 languages. For more, see marknepo.com.

Author photo © Brian Bankston

Listen to Tami Simon's in-depth audio podcast interviews with Mark Nepo:
Holding Nothing Back »
Becoming the Poem »
Writing Is Listening with Your Heart and Taking Notes »

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Subscribe to Insights at the Edge to hear all of Tami’s interviews (transcripts available too!), featuring Eckhart Tolle, Caroline Myss, Tara Brach, Jack Kornfield, Adyashanti, and many more.

Meet Your Host: Tami Simon

Founded Sounds True in 1985 as a multimedia publishing house with a mission to disseminate spiritual wisdom. She hosts a popular weekly podcast called Insights at the Edge, where she has interviewed many of today's leading teachers. Tami lives with her wife, Julie M. Kramer, and their two spoodles, Rasberry and Bula, in Boulder, Colorado.

Photo © Jason Elias

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Mark Nepo: Age Like a Meteor

What if aging isn’t about decline, but about becoming brighter—like a meteor that grows more luminous even as it falls through the atmosphere?

Tami Simon speaks with beloved poet-philosopher Mark Nepo about his deeply moving new book, The Fifth Season: Creativity in the Second Half of Life. Drawing from Chinese wisdom traditions and his own journey through chronic pain and back surgery, Mark illuminates aging as the “heavenly pivot” (love that phrase) which is the transformative shift from living outwardly to inhabiting life from the inside out.

Join Mark and Tami for this episode to explore:

  • The meteor metaphor: how we grow brighter as our outer casing flakes away • “Entering time” versus moving through it—and why slowing down opens the eternal moment • The paradox of limitation: how loss simultaneously deepens and expands us • Breaking through to joy as the depth of being that holds all the waves • Why the heart, not the mind, must lead in the second half of life • Living with chronic pain and learning to let beauty in while suffering • The difference between being victims of life versus initiates into life • How grief changes everything and why we don’t get over it, we get under it • Being swift of heart—living without hesitation from the inside out

Mark’s wisdom arises from decades of spiritual practice, surviving cancer, and facing the inevitable losses that come with a long life—essential listening for anyone navigating aging, chronic pain, loss, or simply seeking to live more fully present to the life they have.

Listen now to discover how the second half of life can be your most luminous yet.

This conversation offers genuine transmission—not just concepts about awakening, but the palpable presence of realized teachers exploring the growing edge of spiritual understanding together. Originally aired on Sounds True One.

Mark Nepo: The Half-Life of Angels

How do we know our own authenticity? How can we return to our hearts when we find we’ve left them? As we evolve and change along our journey, how do we relate to the “former selves” in our past? In this podcast, Tami Simon and poet-philosopher Mark Nepo address these questions and more, as they discuss his creative process; his new book, The Half-Life of Angels; and how we can each touch the ever-present and wholly miraculous “spark of becoming” waiting to guide our lives. 

Tune in as Tami and Mark talk about the introspective nature of the creative process; the metaphor of the soul as an inlet; congruency; how the heart shatters but inevitably heals; becoming a student to the mystery of life; the meaning of the word “admit,” and the practice of return; seeing through the lens of the miraculous; the intersection of meditation and creativity; the art of re-visioning; how a commitment to truthfulness grows in concentric circles; living from the deep versus diving and coming back up; the shift from being driven to being drawn; impermanence and perseverance; how the life of expression is one of discovery, relationship, and inquiry; why “there’s always a teacher next to you”; “becoming the poem”; and more.

Note: This episode originally aired on Sounds True One, where these special episodes of Insights at the Edge are available to watch live on video and with exclusive access to Q&As with our guests. Learn more at join.soundstrue.com.

Mark Nepo: Authentic Expression is Heart-Based

“All my work is about devotion to the messy, magnificent human journey”

—Mark Nepo

Every day, we learn. We take in more of the new. And yet, we can only respond to situations based on what we know already. We rely on the old.

Mark Nepo seems to be asking about the space between. What does it mean to grow and change with grace? What does it mean to have faith in that process? And what does this have to do with writing and expression?

We are constantly tasked to face the unknown using tools that may have only worked for us in the past (and that is freaking scary).

I believe that asking questions is elemental to human nature. But, it is impossible to truly know any of the answers.

For Mark, there is no one right way forward. There is no way out of fear. There is only a sensibility that can be adopted: that is, the willingness to listen. 

In other words, there are no objectives. There are no end products. The “answer” is in letting go of resistance to what we know, have, and are.

That way, the invisible can make itself known.

WITNESSING

“How do we talk about the things that matter that you really can’t see?”

—Mark Nepo

The ephemeral connection between ourselves and the world of essence exists within our hearts. With this practice—this practice of inner trust, perhaps even surrender—we can begin to gesture at expressing the unsayable.

What’s clear about Mark Nepo is that he is first and foremost a writer. However, his ideas can be applied to any form of expression.

To bear witness in writing, Mark advises giving full attention to whatever is in front of you, then describing it in as much detail as possible. It’s important not to make it seem magnificent or assign it “a bunch of meaning.”

Don’t evaluate it.

We are the observers and not yet the translators.

There is another part to it. Look inward. Feel what is moving through you at that moment. “Paint” that feeling with words. Don’t judge. Don’t bother with meaning. This disposition is inherently freeing. 

In this state (and I fall in and out of it even as I write this), reality moves up to our eyes like a mirror. We can look at it and hear it, be part of it.

THE INVISIBLE WORLD

“You can’t see light except for what it illuminates. All the forces that hold us and support us are invisible”

—Mark Nepo

We name things all the time. We have to. It keeps chaos at bay.

But, naming things tends to keep us separate from them. That is this and I am this and you are there and I am here.

In his Insights at the Edge episode with Tami, Mark mentions that we are accustomed to listening in this way.

We immediately assign names, places, spaces, reasons, meaning and significance to everything we see and feel. We judge and assume (partly because it is efficient; partly because we are so used to doing it).

This is in stark contrast to the “essence of wholehearted presence, however and whenever that appears.”

IMMERSION

“The truth is, I barely understand half of what comes through me. The other half leads me”

—Mark Nepo

Immersion is a different kind of listening.

Rather than naming, one engages in a mutual conversation with the world. Discovery and creation unite as the byproduct of participation in oneness.

For Mark, immersion is a way to stop resisting our naturalness and be… whatever it is we were meant to be, as humans.

When he talks about “the things that matter,” what he seems to mean is the invisible world, “that which holds us together.” In immersion, we have the chance to interact with the invisible source of our unity.

Like the fiery and untouchable sun from which our individual experiences emanate.

WHOLEHEARTEDNESS

“It’s a gift that we can’t reach what we’re trying to say or what we see, because of all that it gives us”

—Mark Nepo

In his interview, Mark says to Tami about art-making, “What matters more is our wholeheartedness than whether we do it well.”

Tami’s response struck me. “I notice, as you offer that answer, there’s a part of me that really softens.”

Creation can be a meeting place. Rather than prescribing, you meet something somewhere, and then you embrace whatever happens. You accept what is present—and in return, you are accepted just as you are.

Wholeheartedness: letting go of expectation for the sake of the unsayable.

SELF-EXPRESSION

“Just because I write it doesn’t mean that I have the meaning of it all”

—Mark Nepo

As a writing teacher, I often tell my students that if they’re stuck, they may not be empty of ideas. In fact, they may be too full.

Creating space for the heart allows the bubbles to rise up. Like attracts like. We see what we see.

“If you’re not quite there, go back to the heart of whatever the expression is about, and get closer, and get stiller, and put your defenses down, and get closer. … Go back and have a more open heart, and see what comes then.”

Sometimes, it’s unpleasant.

Sometimes, it’s utterly nonsensical.

Poetry, as one possible example of this art, has long emptied itself of pragmatic purpose and precise meaning for the sake of beauty and potentiality.

You may end up with something that you don’t understand for years. You may just take that thing out later and realize what you meant. Authentic expression is not a product. It’s a message from you to you, from the universe to the universe.

And it is always miraculous.

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Feeding Your Demons: Lama Tsultrim Allione on Turning ...

Fear, self-doubt, and emotional pain have a way of showing up uninvited, and most of us spend enormous energy trying to push them away. What would shift for you if turning toward those experiences, with curiosity and care, became the most healing thing you could do? 

At Sounds True, we have spent four decades connecting people with teachers who ask exactly that kind of question. Our library of transformational teachings, digital courses, and programs exists to help you move through life’s harder moments with greater awareness and inner strength.

We will cover the feeding your demons practice, Lama Tsultrim Allione’s approach to turning towards difficulty, the ancient roots of Machig Labdron Chod and Tibetan shadow work, and how relating to demons as teachers can open a path toward lasting inner growth.

Key Takeaways:

  • Meet Fear with Compassion: The feeding your demons practice invites us to turn toward emotional pain with openness, creating a path toward genuine self-awareness and healing.
  • Ancient Roots, Modern Healing: Rooted in the Tibetan Buddhist lineage of Machig Labdrön, this practice draws from centuries of contemplative wisdom to help transform fear into freedom.
  • Demons Become Your Greatest Teachers: Lama Tsultrim Allione’s teachings reveal that our most difficult inner struggles often hold the most important lessons about where genuine growth is possible.

Discover how your mind really works

Lama Tsultrim Allione: Turning Towards Difficulty 

Lama Tsultrim Allione is a recognized Buddhist teacher, author, and the founder of Tara Mandala, a mountain retreat center dedicated to contemplative practice and spiritual study. She has spent decades teaching within the lineage of Machig Labdrön, the 11th-century Tibetan yogini who founded the Chöd tradition, and has brought her work on Dzogchen teachings to students around the world.

When we treat challenging emotions as teachers, space opens for greater awareness, resilience, and emotional freedom. Her teachings show that turning towards difficulty is one of the most courageous acts of self-care we can practice. Her work sits alongside that of many respected voices we are proud to carry, all of whom you can find on our All Teachers & Authors page.

What Is Feeding Your Demons and Why Do We Avoid What We Fear?

Most of us instinctively turn away from difficult emotions, painful memories, or persistent inner struggles. The practice of feeding your demons offers a different path. Meeting fear, anger, or shame with curiosity and compassion, and asking what those feelings truly need, can begin to shift even the most entrenched patterns.

Lama Tsultrim Allione developed a five-step process for working with disowned emotions without becoming pulled into spirals of negativity. Rooted in both shamanic and Buddhist traditions, this approach weaves ancient practices into a form that feels accessible to modern practitioners. 

Our Spirituality & Awakening collection brings together teachings like these, spanning presence, healing, and inner exploration for those ready to go deeper. Now, let’s see what makes this practice possible.

Map Your Inner Landscape

The practice teaches you to map your demons and recognize how they interconnect. A fear of failure, for example, often links to a deeper sense of unworthiness that surfaces across professional and personal life, creating patterns that repeat until they are met with awareness and care.

Tend, Don’t Fight

One of the practice’s most compelling insights is that tending to your demons can yield real physical results. Chronic tension, restless sleep, and emotional exhaustion often ease when we begin to meet what is present with openness. Practitioners describe a quality of release that resistance alone never creates.

A Gateway to Awakening 

Working with your demons can become a potent gateway to spiritual awakening. When we stop avoiding what frightens us, those very struggles often reveal where we are clinging, where healing is needed, and what genuine growth looks like in practice. These skills help subdue fear and embrace openness, laying the groundwork for deeper spiritual engagement.

Tibetan Shadow Work and Inner Growth 

Tibetan shadow work offers a compassionate framework for working with the parts of ourselves we often reject or ignore. When we meet uncomfortable thoughts with openness, we begin to recognize them as invitations for insight and transformation. The more willing we become to face these hidden aspects, the more inner balance we can cultivate.

The feeding your demons practice is rooted in the ancient tradition of Machig Labdron Chod, a Tibetan Buddhist lineage that teaches transformation through generosity and openness. Machig Labdrön’s teachings hold that we can learn to relate to suffering in a new way, meeting it with care. Symbolically offering nourishment to our fears softens habitual avoidance and creates conditions for lasting healing.

Alongside Chöd, other exercises within this tradition draw from both shamanic and Buddhist practice, including visualization techniques, body-centered awareness, and practices that help us move toward what we would avoid. 

Addressing our demons directly is one of the most powerful commitments we can make to personal growth and transformation. Our Subtle Energy collection supports this kind of inner work, bringing together teachings on energetic awareness for those ready to go deeper.

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Bringing the Feeding Your Demons Practice into Everyday Life

The principles behind this practice are available in ordinary moments, during daily challenges and quiet pauses alike. When stress surfaces in a difficult conversation, when anxiety arises before something uncertain, or when a familiar pattern pulls at you, meeting what is present with kindness and curiosity can create a real shift.

Start with Simple Awareness 

Begin by noticing when a difficult emotion arises, without immediately trying to resolve it. Naming what you are experiencing, whether fear, grief, or frustration, loosens its hold and creates just enough space to respond with care. This small pause can become one of the most transformative habits.

Work with a Structured Process

Returning to Lama Tsultrim Allione’s five-step approach during moments of emotional intensity gives the practice a clear container. Working with it consistently, even briefly, builds an inner capacity that makes responding to difficulty with compassion feel more natural. Pairing this with regular meditation can deepen the effects.

Engage with Teaching and Community

Connecting with teachers who share this path makes the practice feel less solitary. Many of our teachers share this kind of practical wisdom on the Insights at the Edge Podcast, where leading spiritual voices discuss awareness, compassion, and how to bring transformation into daily life.

Demons as teachers become most vivid when we commit to meeting them consistently, with the same warmth and curiosity we bring to any other form of inner work.

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Final Thoughts

The practice of feeding your demons reminds us that lasting transformation often begins by turning toward the parts of ourselves we would rather avoid. Through Lama Tsultrim Allione’s teachings, the wisdom of Machig Labdron Chod, and the tools of Tibetan shadow work, we can learn to meet fear with compassion and recognize demons as teachers. 

As that relationship shifts, more space opens for healing, self-awareness, and inner peace. We are here to walk alongside you in that journey, with teachings, digital courses, and a community that meets you wherever you are on the path. 

Frequently Asked Questions About Feeding Your Demons

What is the purpose of practicing how to feed your demons?

The purpose of feeding your demons is to change your relationship with fear, emotional pain, and inner conflict. Instead of trying to eliminate these experiences, the practice encourages understanding and compassion as a path toward healing.

Do I need to be Buddhist to practice “befriending my demons?”

No. Many people practice feeding their demons regardless of their religious or spiritual background. The method focuses on self-awareness and emotional healing, making it accessible to anyone interested in personal growth.

Can facing your fears head-on help with anxiety?

Many practitioners find the practice helpful for understanding anxious thoughts and emotional patterns. It is intended to complement personal growth and is not a substitute for professional mental health care.

Why are demons described as teachers?

The term “demons as teachers” reflects the idea that our greatest challenges often reveal important lessons about our fears, habits, and unmet emotional needs.

Is feeding your demons the same as shadow work?

They share similar intentions but differ in approach. Tibetan shadow work draws from Buddhist teachings and guided visualization, while other forms of shadow work may use psychological or therapeutic methods.

Can beginners learn how to face their demons through practice?

Yes. Beginners can start by learning the core principles through books, guided audio practices, workshops, or teachings from qualified instructors before developing a regular practice.

How often should I practice Lama Tsultrim Allione’s spiritual exercises?

There is no fixed schedule. Some people use the practice during periods of emotional difficulty, while others include it as part of their ongoing spiritual or mindfulness routine.

Michelle Cassandra Johnson is an author, activist, spiritual teacher, racial equity consultant, and intuitive healer. She is the author of six books, including Skill in Action and Finding Refuge. Amy Burtaine is a leadership coach and racial equity trainer. With Robin DiAngelo, she is the coauthor of The Facilitator's Guide for White Affinity Groups. For more, visit https://www.michellecjohnson.com/wisdom-of-the-hive.

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